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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/26/2007 10:11:35 AM | In the case of the minimum wage, it artificially increases the cost of labor for businesses. When this happens, businesses do things such as cut employee hours, or fire employees, or raise prices.
Again, I don't see any CEO's refusing even more money, wistfully thinking about how they are taking profits away from the company and it's potential stockholders.
They are doing all those things today, with a lower minimum wage. They'll close plants, and lay off workers, and sent the work to places like China. They have no responsibility to any flag or country, and their colours aren't red, white, and blue - they are just green.
Capitalism , at it's worst, has no morals.
But that CEO makes important decisions, some say, vital to the company. Without the hard work of his employees, without their daily contributions to interactions with clients, he wouldn't have a company to run. That public face, that hard work, has always been the foundation on which good business runs.
Today's corporate world is much like the days of kings. One person, appointed, and covered in jewels and riches. That flies against the historical model of how executives were rewarded. It flies against the very model of democracy, and all men being equal.
MarketWatch.com reports that the latest research shows that in 2005 the average CEO made 262 times as much as the average worker.
They report that this is “the second-highest CEO-to-worker pay ratio in 40 years.” In terms of dollar differences, the average CEO made $10.9 million last year, while the average worker earned $41,861.
They also provide some historical perspective, reporting that, “In 1965, CEOs of major U.S. companies earned 24 times more than the average worker. In 1978, corporate chiefs earned 35 times more than workers and in 1989, 71 times more.”
http://soc101.wordpress.com/2006/08/04/it-pays-to-be-the-boss-ceo-salary/
Start to reduce that drain off of corporate profits, spread the money around a little more fairly, and everyone gains.
Roughly an 800 percent increase (relative) in their salaries since 1978, and not one Chicken Little is running around screaming that the sky is falling on Wall Street.
Meanwhile, a few extra dollars on a workers paycheck is going to end life as we know it on the planet.
Time to open your eyes.
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/26/2007 11:44:40 AM | | Montreal guy, the problem with your argument (while it holds truth) is that it doesnt address the issue. The minumum wage is a dangerous cloak for a very large and monumental problem. The problem is it gives people the false impression that it is helping the workers situation out. It does- for a bout a week or two- until prices readjust. Fact is the only thing that will turn the economic widening gap around is more stringent immigration control and repealing free trade agreements. It is no suprise that the Radical Right is in bed with the Radical left over immigration. Comprehensive- balony. It means one thing to to big companies- cheap labor | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/26/2007 12:01:39 PM | | Something to keep in mind might be that old dragon, Demographics. When it was their time to work, baby boomers did everything possible to make as much money as possible, inflation be damned. Now however, many boomers are retiring and would like to see their savings stretch to infinity while still running a Harley, a yacht, and two residences. Being clever and still in large numbers; they want their elected representatives to keep the cost of living as low as possible. How could a higher minimum wage ever be approved in the atmosphere of such a mentality? | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/26/2007 1:02:30 PM | ok SOME citizens do make minnimum wage HOWEVER the MAJORITY im sure are illegal immigrants (God bless em) so maybe the gov' t is finally facing that fact and keepin the $$ as they are greedy and the illegals will work for the lil they get now.
Dont get me wrong I am against illegal workers as it screws us here but peeps r peeps so gotta have pity for em n e way...
and the RICH GET RICHER welcome to PLANET EARTH | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/26/2007 1:07:40 PM | The problem is it gives people the false impression that it is helping the workers situation out. It does- for a bout a week or two- until prices readjust. Fact is the only thing that will turn the economic widening gap around is more stringent immigration control and repealing free trade agreements. It is no suprise that the Radical Right is in bed with the Radical left over immigration. Comprehensive- balony. It means one thing to to big companies- cheap labor
Why do you think those illegal aliens are allowed in so easily in the first place. It's a great way to increase profits, and put pressure on the working class to accept lower salaries. You don't want that job, well Juan over there would LOVE it.
The government, especially in recent years, does little to encourage otherwise. Companies caught doing it are (typically) given slap on the wrist penalties. Perp walk a few dozen company owners in front of the TV cameras for such violations, and make national ad campaigns reminding everyone that such behavior is not only abuse, but unpatriotic, and you will see some changes made rather quickly.
Why it's tolerated ? See the first paragraph in my post.
If more money goes into more peoples pockets, the economy improves. Giving 500 million to one person has nowhere near the same effect as 500 dollars to a million people. That money actually gets spent, and creates jobs. It's spent all over the economy, not just at Ferrari dealerships.
Why do you think the American public has such a high level of credit ? Heavy promotion and acceptance of consumption, and people who don't have the cash for those "caviar dreams" ( or mac and cheese, for that matter) will simply go out and borrow money.
Again, if minimum wage means you cannot afford basics like food and rent (without spending EVERYTHING you make), then you are essentially not much farther removed from the sharecropper in your situation - in this enlightened and progressive day.
America needs another Emancipation Act - for the common worker, this time.
"The slave-breeders and slave-traders, are a small, odious and detested class, among you; and yet in politics, they dictate the course of all of you, and are as completely your masters, as you are the master of your own negroes."
Abraham Lincoln
-From the August 24, 1855 Letter to Joshua Speed
OK, the PHYSICAL chains are gone now, but the concept remains somewhat intact - and now applied to class and not colour.
Money doesn't trickle down, it sticks like crazy glue. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/26/2007 2:13:33 PM | I would like to see all those who are against the minimum wage raise and make more than the minimum wage, have to live on minimum wage for a year. Bet it would be raised the first month. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 3:50:58 PM | Sassymiss, contary to your and others' belief, the minimum wage is NOT a living wage. Nor is it inteded to be. It is an ENTRY LEVEL wage for entry level workers. Most of which are teenagers, college students and probably some illegals. The rest earning minumum wage are generally servers who also earn tips. I have a close friend who pays his waitresses and waiters minimum wage. Yet the ones who work the hardest earn between 45 and 60 thousand a year.
Your argument will probably be something like 'but what about those single parents trying to raise their kids on minimum wage'. Do you know anyone who works for minimum wage? I'm betting you'll be hard pressed to find any.
For the sake of argument, say there is a single parent who has 3 yr old child, is 25 years old and making minimum wage: This worker is either A: Blatantly underqualified to do a job that has any amount of responsibility, B: Has no motivation to work hard and prove his/her worth, C: Has not motivation to learn how to make up a resume and advertise themselves to find higher paying jobs. I'll also add that if any worker has been at the same company for three years and still earning minimum wage, well I guess the word sucker comes to mind.
Can anyone tell me what amount is fair for a minimum wage? I'm serious. What should the minimum wage be? | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 4:04:24 PM | Sassymiss, contary to your and others' belief, the minimum wage is NOT a living wage. Nor is it inteded to be.
So slavery is OK, as long as there are no chains and lynchings involved ? Work hard all day long, do a good job, and you can't even live off the fruits of your labor ? That's not what American capitalism used to mean, post Great Depression.
As to people talking minimum wage jobs, and your view on it, you might want to go to some smaller or depressed areas of the country, and look around. Perhaps the plant you've worked at for twenty years has closed, and now your skills have no other market in the area.
Move ? Sure, one possible solution.
Empathy isn't a bad thing.
Minimum wage here in Quebec is eight dollars an hour (non-tip job), and apartments in Montreal can go for (easily) 600-800 dollars a month. That means a worker has to (at minimum wage levels) work almost 100 hours (BEFORE TAXES) to afford just a roof over his head - and nothing else.
As to what is should be, there is no one figure. It depends on the market involved. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 4:30:24 PM | | ummmmmmmm well i hate to disagree but i work for $2.65 an hour but get taxed $8.85 cents and hours no benefits no sick days no vacation pay.......i am a server in a family style restaurant and have not grossed more then $15,000.00 in the last 15 years and raised three sons on that so trust me people do work for less then $5.15 an hour and with the economy the the way it is people don't eat out so i don't have customers so i don't get tips ......so that means i stand around for $2.65 and hour and uncle sam taxes me the $8.85 an hour anyway!My checks for a two week pay period of 40 hours is $95.00 so is all that fair! | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 4:37:10 PM | MG, slavery is OK? I know that was just a metaphor but.....puhleeez!
So where are these depressed areas of the country you speak of where the full time workers are 'slaving' away day after day for minimum wage? How many people do you know personally 22 yrs of age or older working for minimum wage? How many?
As to your comment about apartment costs in Quebec. Well again, minimum wage is an entry level wage. Who can pay 800 a month for an apartment with a job that pays eight an hour (before taxes)? On top of that food, clothing, car payments, etc? No one can. That's why 18-20 yr olds (most of which earn more than minimum wage) live with room mates. Living as cheap as possible and still have enough to party on the weekends. Just like you and I did at that age until we were making enough to live on our own. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 5:04:15 PM | | talk to any economist. raising the minimum wage will hurt those whom you are trying to help. a simple economics 101 course would explain that to most of you who believe it needs to be raised. basically, those working for min wage are those doing the grunt work of the nation, say agriculture or retail. if you raise the cost of employing or farming, then that cost will be passed directly along to the consumer. Ie higher prices for food and clothing. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 5:27:46 PM |
Just like you and I did at that age until we were making enough to live on our own.
At that age, I was already living on my own, and making a little over minimum wage. I had a nice clean apartment, in the center of downtown Montreal, and could live rather comfortably. I didn't have everything I wanted, but I had everything I needed - and some pocket change . Life was pretty good.
You could easily find an apartment for perhaps 250 dollars a month, and a nice one.
Today that isn't possible.
Rents have risen dramatically, and yet wages have not kept pace. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 5:35:58 PM | The notion that an increase in the minimum wage is harmful is debatable at best. Yes an Economics 101 course will state that it is "bad", but any econ 101 course will also inform the students that a basic econ courses are not that realistic until the higher more advance courses.
That being said. There is no clear cut evidence. Studies have been conducted and display mixed results at best. There is merit to the claim when there is a large and sudden increase in the wage but not so much when it is a small increase. Common themes that emerge in the bulk of the research tend to show that the impact varies across states, industries and occupations. Depending on the size of the increase in the min wage, the impact can range from good to bad.
Economic development has to be kept in mind. For example, how many occupations (both in number and hours) have been scaled back by the introduction of more efficient technology (yes, even at the low minimum wage level)? Look at grocery store cashiers for a good example. They're able to service more customers now with faster computers in front of them. Profit margins over time are another key thing to look at. If the industry average profit margin is increasing, minimum wage doing harm wouldn't hold.
Either way, no clear cut answer. However the original link to this thread does not work anymore....how much was the proposed increase anyway? | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 5:39:20 PM | Just to add.
Pegging it to the inflation rate wouldn't be a bad idea tho. Since those who earn minimum wage today are worse off than they were 5, 10 even 20 years ago. Things are getting more expensive (mainly driven by oil price surges) and they are earning the same. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 6:06:34 PM |
I would like to see all those who are against the minimum wage raise and make more than the minimum wage, have to live on minimum wage for a year. Bet it would be raised the first month
Spoken like a true liberal. I'll take that bet and I'd wager those same people would get an education and improve their lives the way it should be done. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 6:13:50 PM | I prefer the term living wage, and not minimum wage.
Here's a good site to explore how social justice can be achieved :
http://www.livingwagecampaign.org/index.php?id=1958
Manchester CT - April 2006
In April, the Manchester Board of Directors voted 6-3 in favor of a living wage ordinance. Companies with at least 25 employees, that either have a service contract with the town of at least $25,000 a year or receive a tax benefit of at least $25,000 a year are required to pay their employees a living wage of $11.06 an hour or $14 an hour if no health benefits are offered.
Miami FL - April 2006
On April 6, the Miami City Commission unanimously passed a living wage ordinance. The ordinance will cover city employees and the employees of city services contractors that hold contracts worth over $100,000 per year. It requires payment of $10.58 per hour if the employer provides health insurance, or $11.83 per hour if not. The ordinance becomes effective October 1, 2006.
- Ibid
This type of mentality ensures that local economies start to get more benefits, and probably have spin offs with crime reduction and increases in health (better diet, etc).
They also provide local adjustment, which is also needed. One can't even compare two cities in the same state fairly, if one is a large city and the other a small town - with differing business bases.
All this has to be taken into account, or the solution is worse than the problem. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 6:52:26 PM | Again, im not in favor of the goverment meddling with wages directly- it isnt even a half -arse fix for the growing dispariety of wealth, increased poverty, and the war on the middle class.
It has to be done with repealing free-trade to some extent and fixing the immigration problem. Thatss how you make labor valuable again.
Personally I believe all should get paid a living wage (not by the minimum wage route). It goes beyond simple economics and into the sphere of family values. A mother who raises a child by herself and has to work an obsene amount of hours a week cannot instill values into that child- because she is never there. I wonder sometimes how many less criminals we would have if people had beter guidiance. And the money it would save putting them in jail, court and defense costs, ect. And I wonder if how much better shape schools would be in if mom could help little joey or xavier instead of colapsing on the couch after 2 plus shifts. And if she wasnt working those trashy jobs you- the taxpayer would not have to pay for her healthcare. She could then afford it herself. And in the process people could gain their dignity back instead of having to quene in line for foodstamps, and benifit application lines. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/27/2007 9:52:05 PM | well, i think i would support the increase for the minimum wage but i do think we can do more to help the less paid.
noticed those poorer states tend to charge more on sale taxes. that basically put more burdens on those working for minimum wages. i rather see collecting more real estate taxes and less sale taxes. people who could afford real estate properties tend to have better financial means. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/28/2007 1:26:52 AM | Sassymiss, contary to your and others' belief, the minimum wage is NOT a living wage. Nor is it inteded to be. It is an ENTRY LEVEL wage for entry level workers. Most of which are teenagers, college students and probably some illegals.
That may not be what it intended to be but it is a living wage for a lot of people now.
So where are these depressed areas of the country you speak of where the full time workers are 'slaving' away day after day for minimum wage? How many people do you know personally 22 yrs of age or older working for minimum wage? How many?
There are a good amount you must not be looking very hard. I was for a little while at 23.
Spoken like a true liberal. I'll take that bet and I'd wager those same people would get an education and improve their lives the way it should be done.
Some people can not afford an education. Especially people who grow in to poor parents. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/31/2007 7:44:15 AM | Darknight1984, you said you were earining minimum wage for a while at age 23. Key words there are 'you were for a little while'. To which I assume at that point you were an entry level employee and now moved above that, confirming my point.
Willprevale was exactly right with his comment on getting an education. While it is true that some can not afford a college eduaction, that does not prevent them from gaining knowledge and skills in another way.....such as on the job training.
I'll give you an example: Earlier I mentioned a friend of mine who owns a resturaunt/bowling alley. He grew up in a poor home, with little parenting. He started working at the bowling alley when he was 16. He dropped out of school before he was 17. He started out at minimum wage mopping floors, waxing the lanes. Then he moved up and bacame a bowling machanic. After that he was promoted to manager of the bowling department. The owner eventually retired and sold the business to him and three other of the employees. The only things in people's way of success are themselves. My friend never went to college but he was driven to make a good life for himself and his family. He worked his butt off and was eager to learn. He indeed did get an education and it didn't cost him a cent.
Earlier I asked a question and only MG answered it but I'd like to hear from anyone who wants the minimum wage raised: What do you think it should be? | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/31/2007 9:13:44 AM | Darknight1984, you said you were earining minimum wage for a while at age 23. Key words there are 'you were for a little while'. To which I assume at that point you were an entry level employee and now moved above that, confirming my point.
True but I stil make less then $9 an hour and not enough to live on. Sure you can get a raise to get above minimun wage but that still does not mean you can live off it. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/31/2007 5:44:16 PM | A lot of places keep you just above inimum...then, if you start making a bit more, they get rid of you and bring in another minimum wager...leaving you to find another minimum wage job. A real viscious cycle.
You try going into a place today, even with experience, and it's "We start at..." and that's it. You don't get extra for working elsewheres. Sure...they all want the experienced ones...but won't pay for them, nor even keep the ones they have trained! | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/31/2007 6:26:53 PM | I had this boss once, that handed me that timeless line : " Money isn't a prime motivator."
I looked up at him, with my 2% raise (after having saved more than my salary in the last 12 months for the company through a determined effort, and without being requested to do so) and decided to jolt him out of his self-righteous slumber and back into reality. 
( Btw, the company had been "in the red" for the last three years....every year....but strangely never closed.  )
I told him that , if that was the case, then he should in fact return his company car , expense account, and any additional money he was given over perhaps $ 40,000 dollars ( a rather good salary at the time) - simply because they were not having any impact on his performance whatsoever, since money wasn't a motivator.
I also asked him to look into closing down Wall Street, while he was at it. 
One of those "priceless" moments.... ( and I kept my job , too, which surprised even me.)
Another time, at another printing company, the CEO had a personal meeting with me. He'd noted that I'd saved over 160,000 in costs in 18 months. He assured me that they would be installing an incentive program to reward such an effort - and even took the incredible extra step of actually thanking me.
I'd actually been called into a meeting of the Directors one day, to explain why I'd "made too much money" on a job. Compared to the estimate, I'd tripled the profit. I sat down with the suits, looked up slowly (after the CEO asked the question) , and said " Shouldn't you guys be talking to the coordinators that made a lot less profit then expected....and not the ones who are making a lot more ? "
Had I been in sales, that 160,000 dollars of profit would have equaled more than a million and a half in sales, in what it brought to the profit margin. They would have erected a statue in the parking lot to any salesman who'd sold that much - at such a profit level.
They closed the company about a year later, and the guy working next to me (who never even tried to save one penny on any work he processed was kept on - while about 75 others (including myself) were let go. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/31/2007 7:29:20 PM | As far as the entry level jobs bot warraning t a living wage- Id disagree.
Any job that is created by an employeer is deemed by that employeer to be a necessity of the buisiness, for either its survivial and growth. Or else the job position would not exist. So the employeer has already made a defacto concession that the work is important. | |
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| Senate refuses to raise minimum wage.
Posted: 8/31/2007 8:51:04 PM | Interestingly, the strongest employment market in all of North America is...Alberta. Tops for rate of employment rate, tops for wages, AND tops for productivity. One key factor this is attributed to is a relatively LOW minimum wage. The low wage gets unskilled employees into the market, while overall high wages gives them something to strive for. Employers can afford to hire more unskilled employees and reward the better ones. That's my take on it, and I'm no economist. My income HAS shot up, however, because I enter a market I wouldn't normally, and learn fast enough to justify rapid increases. Beats the hell out of mediocre jobs that pay enough to live but not enough to put effort into and not move up either. Yes, you too can be Homer - tolerated and coddled and completely unmotivated to do anything more. Or you can learn the value of skill and effort.
Yes, it only works in balance. Not only do employees need to understand the value of effort and skill, but employers have to be able to hire more, train, and reward appropriately. Higher minimum wage not only limits hiring, it limits raises. Overpaid execs is certainly at least a perceptional problem, if not an actual one, but there are requirements and rewards at both ends of the scale. Passing the buck from one end to another does nothing to negate the issues at either end. | |
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