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 Author Thread:
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 80
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 8:37:27 AM
Why do you keep saying "sand bunnies"? Sounds like a racist term you are trying to relate here, and I for one, am not amused.
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 82
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 9:55:20 AM
Serviced? I do not think I"m going to feed you anymore on this.
 cottonblossom

Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 83
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 11:47:34 AM
Topgear..I have some questions & I am enjoying this thread and all the post..just so much to absorb & I am beat from work..I will be back..Nona..thank you.

 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 84
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 11:52:55 AM
Your Welcome Cottonblossom
 cottonblossom

Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 85
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 1:31:21 PM
Topgear.Thank You for your knowledge & the others..I have a quick question..I went to the Confederacy Museum here in Montgomery & I bought some of the books..anyway..I read where General Lees widow Mary went to pay the Federal Govt. the taxes owed on Arlington..they refused the payment??..and only later returned Arlington back to her..but it was too late..so many graves..

What do you know about the musket ball?..I comprehended your post so well I really hope you can explain why that musket ball was SO damaging..the amputations from that war were so high..

I did get to view an actual 'sawbones" kit ..those men suffered so terribly..South & North.
 Artz

Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 86
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 1:46:01 PM
It wasn't the musket ball that was so damaging it was the newer Mini ball. The mini ball. The mini ball was more accurate then the older musket ball, that meant more people hit. It was still a heavy round that was fired at a low velocity. The two factors together made it tumble once it impacted tissue. The tumbling caused it to do more damage to both tissue and bone. Rather then a clean hit it tore open flesh and shattered bone. The damage done was beyound what a field surgon of that time could repair. The simple solution was to cut off the injured limb.
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 87
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:00:47 PM
Another thing about HUGE casualties from both sides during that war was infectious diseases, more times to none obtained while having to lay in unsanitary conditions and having unsanitary medical utensils utilized on them.
 cottonblossom

Joined: 11/5/2007
Msg: 88
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:15:19 PM
Thank You Artz ..the book said musket & the book also never went on to explain how the mini ball did so much damage so thanks for explaining that to me..much appreciated.


This is why I asked for truth..books don't always explain everything..and can be wrong in word terminology.

I didn't even know there was a mini ball..do you know who invented it?



 Artz

Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 89
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 2:41:51 PM
The mini Ball was not really a ball. it was the first bullet shaped round. It was invented in France, i do not recall who was the actual inventor.
rifling of gun and the use of the mini ball was revolutionary in how accurate an average Soldier could shot. This made the old Napoleonic tactics of the Generals on both sides very outdated. That is one of the reasons why the Civil War was so bloody.
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 90
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 3:20:58 PM
Ok, Topgear or anyone else on here. Do you have any cool facts about Women in the civil war? Inquiring minds want to know :)
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 91
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 3:55:55 PM
Well, one thing about women soldiers in that war is that they were hundreds of them. Imagine that time, and how women were regarded in that Victorian era, and then realize these women disguised themselves as men, changed their names, and fought alongside the men.

Sometimes, their secret was only discovered when wounded.


Despite the fact that the U.S. Army did not acknowledge or advertise their existence, it is surprising that the women soldiers of the Civil War are not better known today. After all, their existence was known at the time and through the rest of the nineteenth century. Even though some modern writers have considered Seelye and Cashier, the majority of historians who have written about the common soldiers of the war have either ignored women in the ranks or trivialized their experience. While references, usually in passing, are sometimes found, the assumption by many respected Civil War historians is that soldier-women were eccentric and their presence isolated. Textbooks hardly ever mention these women.

The writings of Bell Wiley and Mary Massey are good examples. Wiley wrote at some length of "the gentler sex who disguised themselves and swapped brooms for muskets [who] were able to sustain the deception for amazingly long periods of time." But he later refers to them, indirectly, as "freaks and distinct types." Massey erroneously asserted that "probably most of the women soldiers were prostitutes or concubines." For the most part, modern researchers looking for evidence of soldier-women must rely heavily upon Civil War diaries and late nineteenth-century memoirs.

It is true that the military service of women did not affect the outcome of campaigns or battles. Their service did not alter the course of the war. Compared with the number of men who fought, the women are statistically irrelevant. But the women are significant because they were there and they were not supposed to be. The late nineteenth-century newspaper writers grasped this point. The actions of Civil War soldier-women flew in the face of mid-nineteenth-century society's characterization of women as frail, subordinate, passive, and not interested in the public realm.

The Union CMSR for John Williams of the Seventeenth Missouri Infantry, Company H, shows that the nineteen-year-old soldier enlisted as a private on October 3, 1861, in St. Louis and was mustered into the regiment on the seventh. Later that month, Williams was discharged on the grounds: "proved to be a woman." The Confederate CMSR for Mrs. S. M. Blaylock, Twenty-sixth North Carolina Infantry, Company F, states:

This lady dressed in men's clothes, Volunteered [sic], received bounty and for two weeks did all the duties of a soldier before she was found out, but her husband being discharged, she disclosed the fact, returned the bounty, and was immediately discharged April 20, 1862.

Another woman documented in the records held by the AGO was Mary Scaberry, alias Charles Freeman, Fifty-second Ohio Infantry. Scaberry enlisted as a private in the summer of 1862 at the age of seventeen. On November 7 she was admitted to the General Hospital in Lebanon, Kentucky, suffering from a serious fever. She was transferred to a hospital in Louisville, and on the tenth, hospital personnel discovered "sexual incompatibility [sic]." In other words, the feverish soldier was female. Like John Williams, Scaberry was discharged from Union service.

Not all of the women soldiers of the Civil War were discharged so quickly. Some women served for years, like Sarah Emma Edmonds Seelye, and others served the entire war, like Albert D. J. Cashier. These two women are the best known and most fully documented of all the women combatants.

http://americancivilwar.com/women/index.html


Given the attitudes we see expressed even today about women in combat, it's almost impossible to imagine what these women faced by doing what they did. While many men could pay their way out of serving, these women fought all the odds TO serve.

They were under no obligation to, and were labeled as "freaks" by some, when they did.
 Topgear1

Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 92
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 4:12:29 PM
Cottonblossom, Mr. Artz is quiet accurate with his facts regarding the Musket ball (Mini ball). He is also very correct about the low velocity and why it caused so much damage. Unlike in todays world were high velocity full metal jacket bullets are used, which will snap a bone and pass cleanly through a body. Those old black powder rifles with their low velocity would smash a bone and the bullet (So to speak)bounce around within the human body.

If you look at some of the photographs taken at the time you will often notice that the dead mens clothes looked ripped to shreds. This isn't because someone came along just before the photo to take what money or goods he may have had (But that isn't to say that didn't happen, for it did). My point is that the reason you will notice their clothes all in shambles is becuase the solider himself would do this, he was looking for the wound and if it was a gut shot wound he knew instantly he would die soon...

Another tragic but odd thing early in the war is that men on both sides would foolishly run out trying to impress their friends in the ranks by trying to catch a cannon ball. When a cannon ball is fired at a long distance and it's arched trajectory has reached its end it will often begin to bounce much like a bowling ball (Soild Shot). Just imagine trying to go out and catch a 10-50 lb bowling ball traveling at 50-100 mph?

Mr Antz is also very correct about the out dated methods used of conducting war but you really can't blame them. It was after all how they had been taught at West Point and other Military establishments. As the war progressed tactics changed and near the end they had learned of their failures that Europe would have to learn 50 years later in the War to end all wars (WW I)... There was a few innovative thinkers during the war that where very successful Grant, Forrest to name a few. Lee is often given too much credit for his success on the field but alot of it was brought about by necessity. That's not to say Lee wasn't a brillant commander for he very much was but his success on the field was due more to the fact of him taking long chances and those chances working to his favor.

But I'm really not here to talk about the conflict itself. The South lost we all know that! What's important and never discussed is why the war took place to begin with. That's the issue that is left out and without that discussion what does the rest matter?

How could this country find itself in such a place that it would go to war with one another. There are reasons to how this conflict came to be and these are less known and why that war never really ended.
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 93
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 4:17:05 PM

This lady dressed in men's clothes, Volunteered [sic], received bounty and for two weeks did all the duties of a soldier before she was found out, but her husband being discharged, she disclosed the fact, returned the bounty, and was immediately discharged April 20, 1862.


This made me chuckle, for it's obvious she only wanted to be remotely
close to her "hubby" and how noble of she to return the bounty? :)

This truly makes me ponder what these women went through and I often ponder how these women would be proud of the women today fighting in combat, no matter the reason.
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 94
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 4:17:48 PM
Ok, dreadstalker? Where ever you are, thank you!!!!! He showed me how to sucessfully quote people on here,,,,WHOOPEE!!!!!!!! Sorry, I"m proud of this ...lol

God Help You All!!!! I now know how to properly quote people!!!!!!!!
 Romantic Heretic

Joined: 10/24/2007
Msg: 95
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 4:25:05 PM
A small correction.

The MiniƩ ball is the correct spelling.

And until the WWI illness was the most common cause of casualties in war. It was not uncommon to campaign for a season and lose half your soldiers to disease and exposure. Rickets, scurvy, diphtheria, dysentery, pneumonia, starvation and thirst have killed more soldiers than weapons. In fact even in WWII some countries with bad logistics, Japan and Russia, suffered enormous privation casualties.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 96
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 4:50:18 PM

Another tragic but odd thing early in the war is that men on both sides would foolishly run out trying to impress their friends in the ranks by trying to catch a cannon ball. When a cannon ball is fired at a long distance and it's arched trajectory has reached its end it will often begin to bounce much like a bowling ball (Soild Shot). Just imagine trying to go out and catch a 10-50 lb bowling ball traveling at 50-100 mph?


Although not directly related to the Civil War, I do remember one interesting thing about how soldiers viewed cannon balls during the battle of Waterloo. In those days a cannonball was essentially an iron ball filled with explosives, and a fuse.

There are accounts from Waterloo about how such a shell would land sometimes right at the feet of officers, with it's fuse still sputtering. It was considered the height of cowardice to run away.

So, many times they'd just stand there, and await their fate. Sometimes it would go out, and sometimes it wouldn't.

Show you how different wars are today.

The Civil War also featured some of the first uses of trench warfare, since the volume of fire of that modern battlefield made it quite a valid means of defense. In that way, it foreshadowed WW1 and it's tactics.
 Javan2

Joined: 7/9/2005
Msg: 97
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:08:26 PM
Coati Says: " am looking for the real causes not slavery people in the north did not care about slaves. "


Coati, I hate to say it but you've really got to pick-up a book, guy. Lincoln in fact sooo wanted to avoid the civil war that, he was willing to allow slavery where it existed as long as the practice wasn't allowed to spread into other states. Northerners were worried that slaves in the North would kill the job market for white northerners. So, to say that they didn't care about the issue is silly and historically inaccurate.
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 98
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:11:54 PM
Lincoln also felt that the superior race should be assigned to the White race, therefore, it's a good thing he didn't include his own belief's into his politics correct?
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 99
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:20:42 PM

Lincoln also felt that the superior race should be assigned to the White race, therefore, it's a good thing he didn't include his own belief's into his politics correct?


The belief in Racial supperiority was sadly extremely common during that time period. The support for slavery was far less universal.

Licoln by this period was a racist, he was also an abolitionist. It's not that his beliefs didn't enter into his politics.
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 100
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:32:52 PM
Charles, most of the abolitionists were also slave owners, therefore, they were being hypocrites. Slavery was rampant on both sides, therefore, I find that slavery was actually universal during the period. I do agree that Lincoln was a racist, but he however did cast aside his racist belief's to do what he felt was best for the country, hence why the Emancipation Proclamation was enacted, but it was virtually a useless document considering both North and the South ignored it at first.
 CharlesEdm

Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 101
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:38:22 PM
Charles, most of the abolitionists were also slave owners, therefore, they were being hypocrites.



Considering the vast majority of abolitionists were in the north, and in many states it was completely illegal to own slaves in this area. How can you say the vast majority were "slave owners"

Cite a source please.


I find that slavery was actually universal during the period. I do agree that Lincoln was a racist, but he however did cast aside his racist belief's to do what he felt was best for the country, hence why the Emancipation Proclamation was enacted, but it was virtually a useless document considering both North and the South ignored it at first


You can "find" whatever you want. Slavery was illegal in that period in the British Empire and France. You're practicing revisionist history.
 Topgear1

Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 102
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:54:45 PM

Nona37
Ok, Topgear or anyone else on here. Do you have any cool facts about Women in the civil war? Inquiring minds want to know :)


It would be impossible for me to list everything and even I don't profess to know it all, concerning side details to that war. Its all one can do to study and be knowledgeable about the many aspects pertaining to that conflict. However, I can tell you this much:

Believe this or not but there is plenty of records that testify of women serving as soliders on both sides. Nevertheless, women did serve more traditional roles for the most part such as nurses and helpers. However, since women gernerally had the burden of rasing the children most didn't participate at those extremes but still did thier part to support the war effort.

I will leave you with this tidbit of info. The term "Hooker's" comes from the prostitutes that used to follow Gen Jospeh Hooker's troops around as they encamped...

There is several good books that would touch more on the subject you seek inquiry upon but for now maybe a taste of what there is available can be found on:
http://www.hallrichard.com/civilwomen.htm
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 103
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:55:54 PM
http://ezinearticles.com/?Facts-About-The-American-Civil-War&id=497944

This is actually an article I wrote with two sources there which
show how the North prolonged and profited from slavery, to include
a source on the slave rebellion in New York City where slaves were publicly
murdered.

http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/aaslavry.htm

This one has alot of good information about not only slavery
within the United States, but worldwide.

The rest you are going to have to research yourself.
 Nona37

Joined: 12/4/2007
Msg: 104
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 5:57:02 PM
Thanks Topgear for the info, I will research it, you at least will have me going in the right direction :)
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 105
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History
the civil war
Posted: 1/6/2008 6:02:40 PM
I don't think it's fair to label Lincoln, or other Americans like Thomas Jefferson, as racists. They were merely products of their times, and can't be faulted because they don't fit our current views on racist viewpoints.

It's a bit like blaming men (pre-feminist era) for considering women as inferior. They simply didn't ever get challenged on their beliefs, and knew no other way.

Lincoln for one had a great friendship with Frederick Douglas, who also regarded him as quite a good friend to the black race. Mary Todd sent him Lincoln's favorite walking can after his death - quite a high honor.


Douglass attended the funeral of Abraham Lincoln and gave an impromptu speech that was remembered as one of the best eulogies ever given to a man.


At Lincoln's funeral, he was prompted (reluctantly) to give a speech. Someone else had been given that task, and he didn't want to take anyone's place - quite the gentleman. The crowd forced him to, and he got up and spoke from his heart, unprepared for the occasion.

In front of that crowd, he hit it right out of the park.

That makes me believe that I don't think calling Lincoln a racist or white supremacist is really fair. I don't think Douglas would have worked so closely with him, or thought so highly of him , were that the case.
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