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| the civil war Posted: 1/9/2008 10:22:26 AM | | It was stated that they were not kept ignorant in a reply to my post saying that they were. I placed the code for various states, they all had them. I was not calling anyone ignorant, it was the ideal to keep slaves ignorant, and in a state of fear to prevent uprisings. What time period of hatred toward Alabama are you refering? | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/9/2008 12:45:10 PM | sleekviper
You are right..I was busy at the time but trying to post & totally skipped some messages..I apologize for that one..just that one though lol
My point again is this ..for ME..I came to this thread wanting information,FACTS..and to clarify.. what is on wikipedia & what I read in books is not always truth..I can google stats out my butt but what I can't google or even find on microfilm available is what I am learning here.
Hatred toward Alabama..I have encountered it my entire life..even now..modern day..people are ignorant and unless one has lived here..for a while..they are ignorant to continue with the myths & lies toward this State & the people here..it is actually funny when in some States..Countries..the accusations..questions..all because one has a Southern accent & lives in the South..you never lived it..I have.
If you want further elaboration please advise?..thanks
Do you honestly think we are not kept ignorant these days with pcism??..come on..you know better.
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| the civil war Posted: 1/9/2008 2:55:25 PM | cotton
I have to say, I have never seen a person so interested in a subject like you have shown here. All your posts were very good and polite. Even when you informed who ever. That you were just here for information, not to debate the subject.
Still wish I could go back and change my answer.  | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/9/2008 4:00:22 PM | | Cottonblossom, I know hat you mean. My mother was raised in Birmingham, Because of this, she is branded a racist.I spent alot of time there growing up. I mostly remember "Vulcan"????? I could see him looking towards the back of my grandmothers house. | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/9/2008 4:21:48 PM | I reserve the word ignorant for more befitting situations.
My grandfather while not a slave could not read or write, save for his name , P.W. Davis. ~ So many people in the south missed out on a formal education. He was not however ignorant. ~ My parents ~, you would not consider educated as well. Yet they managed to get by ~
We ate and lot of red beans and corn bread, a little hog jawl was a real treat. ~ If ever it snowed (rare) mom would make snow ice cream, if we had the sugar to spare. As a child, I remember the black folks and how things was all seperated ~ it didn't make good sense to me. ~ at 4, I went in a neighborhood store to buy some candy ~ as I was there ~shopping for a nickel 's worth ~ an old black gent peeks his head in the door ~ A man says, Black man , you are not suppose to be here. ~ I found that odd and disturbing ~ but what could I do, ~ I was 4! ~
Thank god ~ we've move on ~ we' came a long way since then.
Yet, I understand the jest of your statement ~ the degree of restriction, of upward movement ~ mandated restriction ~ and the fear! all kinds of mistreatment, forced to work for food and shelter ~ I understand that as well. ~ It wasn't a good life for slaves. Not a career one would ever chose on their own.
The educational opportunities in Africa today, still fall ~ way short of what they should be as well. ~ and fear? Tribal conflict? ~ slavery still exist there, it's never ending~ to this day! Sold in to slavery by your own? ~ ~ mans in humanity to man untold ~ an awful thing to even consider.
We adnowledge the horrendous path the Black American has came and appericate your infromative and knowledgeable imput and hope you stay involved and thanks for sharing.
Today, we are speaking of what started the civil war ~ what was the spark that lighted the fuse. ~ dar | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/9/2008 6:31:38 PM |
dancecard I had heard this story and about this book many years ago ~ and it loomed just outside the reach of my recall. ~ I just remembered, Sentor's , elected officials walking out ~ but couldn't remember why! for the life of me. ~ It truly was a Doc Holiday wink ~ that set the fire. ~ I'll never forget it again.
Your welcome... You was so close with your insight I was almost expecting you to say it in one of your post.
We still battle this fog of misunderstanding today
It's not so much misunderstanding as it is a lack of truth seeking. Those who only want to see what they want to believe will find it and disregard the rest, but that isn't reality...
Again, it was a place in time ~ were people were doing the best they knew how.
Never was a truer statement said. This is also a tragic flaw in our own understanding of the issues try as we like it's hard for us here in the 21st century to relate to the people of that time. You have to remeber that the way people lived prior to 1860 was closer to the Greeks and Romans than the modern world, and that was only a century and half ago...
While we are all slaves in one form or another ~ The right to own another " is" ofcoarse wrong and flawed in nature.
I don't recommend you learning about the modern movement of PEO's that a great many companies are converting to. (While not Slavery in the tradtional sense it most certainly is a close relative). So, people don't be surprised if you arrive at work one morning and discover your employer just sold you to a PEO and that if you want to continue to get a check you better sign the papers or there's the door to unemployment...
CharlesEdm
What I hate is historical revisionism.
LOL, then stop reading Federal mandated propaganda and do some searching in historical records, micro film, etc,. You have to look at both sides of the case you can't let only the prosecution present it's case and also handle the defense of the accused too. That's like playing checkers with yourself, either way you win because you mental decided before you sat down to play whether the red or black would be the winner... Have you ever heard of the term Kangaroo Court?
Now, I was only half joking with you by the above statement but seriously. But one could hardly call Capt, S. A. Ashe's book a modern revisionalism, Or Rawle's view of the Constitution revisionalist. But I most vehemently agree with you on having a deep skepticism on modern interpertations regarding historical matters. Nevertheless, if when reading one of those and no tangable evidence contridicts it from other reputable sources one can't really say it's revisionist. However, everything is judged from persepective and Americas declaration for independence was no doubt seen by the British as nothing but a civil insurrection that had no merit...
Perspective Persepective, Perspective... A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal.
This idea that the souths attempt at seperation was some noble purpose. ~ As for the union being voluntary, the entire point of government process is to provide a set of rules to abide by, if you're defeated ellectorally, thats the reality. You have no more right to seperate based on the grounds of slavery, than an American individual has the right to seperate his house from the USA in order to avoid paying parking fines.
I don't know about the nobel part maybe some think that way maybe others do not? All I ever said was that the Costitution didn't forbid it! It was accepted and taught at the time that the Union was a marriage and that the federal Government was subservant to the States. Daniel Webster had argued that a State had every right to seccession most effectively when it came to his own State's threat of seccession but opposed it when other states claimed the same authority, sounds... Again, I don't see the nobelness of it but clearly the historical record shows it was perfectly legal.
A private citizen isn't a State so that analogy is moot.
Just remember who fired the first shot.
I believe the proper military term is called a "preemptive strike"... They weren't firing on the North! They were firing on a foregin military force within their own States borders. President James Buchanan had withdrawn all federal troops from the South because he knew they had no legal authority to be there. The only federal troops remaining in the south was at Fort Pickens (Florida) and Fort Sumter (South Carolina) and those two were scheduled for immediate withdrawl but incoming President Lincoln put a stop to that... While at the same time declaring to the public that he was going to pull the troops out yet plotting in secret to reenforce the garrisons at both. The Govenor of South Carolina had promised the troops safe passage for their return to the north and was willing to provide what ever assitance they need to withdawl... But when the Star of the West sailed up with reenforcments no more words were necessarry. Like a guest whom you had invited into your home, that had worn out their welcome and when asked to leave refused, what other choice was there but to throw them out!
Nevertheless, as you have pointed out the South shot first and that's about all you know regarding the situation. The scare that South Carolina has to live with for all eterinity is nothing more than that propaganda engine still steadily feeding false history. Most people have never heard the story about How Florida almost came to bare that scare...
Cottonblossom
Nothing wrong with Alabama, it's a very nice State... It just has the misfortune as all other States of the South of being labeled as outcast and will be treated that way for centuries to come. Unless people stop being so racist toward the southern population... Maybe someday people will not lable your grand kids- grand kids as country bumpkins but you and your immediate childrens children will have to learn that people will always see them as nothing more than hicks. This is of course is not your fault but those who forgot what Lincoln had said about not showing malice... Your a Confederate whether you like it or not because others will never see anyone outside of the South as anything but. Sadly, that's part of the reason why that War never ended when the guns fell silent that late spring of 1865. The War goes on and on and someday if not one issue but another people will again fan the flames of Seperation... Maybe it will come from the west this time? Nevertheless, I wonder what excuse the Federal authority will declare to the world to justify their military rolling into cities and towns killing hundreds and thousands who's only crime is one of seeking autonomy?
So, what other interesting things would you like to know or anyone else? | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/9/2008 7:09:05 PM | Hi arieann
You remember Vulcan! lol..he is fine..was actually renovated a few years ago..Birmingham is not the Magic city anymore though,hasn't been in years & only gets worse every day,the gangs from CA,TX,AZ,NY etc..have taken hold and not going anywhere..sad to say Alabamas Law enforcment is not equipped IMO to have the slightest handle on it..thank you for your post & if your grandmother experienced that I am so sorry..I do understand.
I am gathering facts about the South & trying to answer questions from damn yankees(before anybody cusses me out,that is what we call anyone not born here!)..and I went riding with a friend from Perth to an artisan well in Prattville, Alabama..that I didn't even know was there!!..I felt so stupid..born & raised here & he knew more than I did!
He is also the one that started telling me facts I had never heard of about the South & The War between the States..and now I HAVE to know these things..I am so hooked & love it....might be a midlife crisis too you think? lol..
I haven't viewed your profile so I am not sure where you are now..but have you been to Alabama?..Topgear we missed you today..Dar your post are informative also,thank you.
Badger for the most part I am by nature "nice"..I can't be mean..I have tried..unless it is a certain issue I will back away from confrontation..but if I have faith in it..then I have a passion that is hard to contain..thank you for what you told me.I truly AM just looking for new things here,not a debate..thank you again,meant a lot to me you can see I am just wanting to learn about that time,the truth.
Not many have the guts to speak the truth about what Southerners have dealt with..the hate..so much hate just being a Southerner,and you know what..I don't think it will ever change for some..they will always label us & hate us..so FACTS are important to me..not one time though have I ever backed down/away about my heritage..just gets tiresome you know..  | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/9/2008 7:54:44 PM |
Cottonblossom
Topgear we missed you today
Sorry, just late to the party... As you may have heard we had a major vehicle pile up on a local interstate here and that has been a very distracting topic of the day. A 70 car and semi truck accident all the result of a state burn and natural fog combonation. Sadly, four people lost thier lives and several people injured, I was surpized it wasn't worse considering the looks of the scene, lots of smashed up vehicles and burning Trucks... Interstate still closed in that area and may not open until late tomorrow?
I went riding with a friend from Perth to an artisan well in Prattville, Alabama..that I didn't even know was there!!..I felt so stupid..born & raised here & he knew more than I did!
He is also the one that started telling me facts I had never heard of about the South & The War between the States..and now I HAVE to know these things..I am so hooked & love it....might be a midlife crisis too you think? lol..
Ask your friend in what State is the only military base named after a Union General from the Civil War and what's the name of the Fort? (Here's your hint Cottonblossom, it's located in Anniston) | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/9/2008 8:20:02 PM | Topgear
I just read this..so I am going to say Fort McClellan?..my friend is on the beach right now I think..but I WILL be calling him in the am! Please tell me is it Fort McClellan?
IF it is Fort McClellan..I have been there MANY times before it was closed & just learned my new fact of the day about our State.
Why would it be named after a Union General?
Can you explain the burning of Atlanta?..Why did Sherman try to destroy Atlanta?
Thank You | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 2:25:47 AM | Yes, It's Fort McClellan...
You'll have to wait for the rest.... Sorry, got to head out to work so can't answer the rest. | |
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Nona37
| Joined: 12/4/2007 Msg: 166 | |
| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 2:38:12 AM | I'm back on the thread, I was banned from the forums for three day, what a shock there!!!! lol
Nonetheless....
Charles:
In reference to the information about the book Complicity as well as the other reference I gave to you, you have to read them, you have to understand what I posted for you, out of the kindness of my heart, was a review, the book covers how the North profited and prolonged slavery and does indeed speak of abolitionist's who owned slaves, in fact, alot of abolitionist's owned slaves, they were hypocrites, they would aid in running slave mills and then turn around and stand on their soapboxes speaking out against slavery. Too many people rely on internet sources, in college, internet sources are more times to none held as unreliable, and believe it or not, REAL books are to be utilized for research papers or reliable articles. Therefore, back at you,,,,DUH!!!!!!
Did I view someone stating that not many slaves served for the Confederacy? If I'm not mistaken, there were over 90,000 slaves who served for the Confederacy, they were in Antietam among many other battles and they were just as patriotic as the "whites", at least according to history. In the article which I wrote on this topic, I found a quote from a slave which stated "General, the only cowardly blood I have in my veins is the white blood"!
I have the utmost respect for the slaves who fought for either side during the Civil War, for history plainly shows, they were not considered citizens, but yet they were more times to none MORE patriotic than the free men who served, I respect that and I'm glad history has documented this.
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 3:25:25 AM | Cotton, People are that way all over, trust me. This area had some "Sundown" towns until not too long ago; it's just how it is. As far as Alabama goes, it's due, in my opinion, to the media. 40 years ago, media focused on Alabama and Mississippi when it came to relations in the south. If the topic was vietnam, it was hippies in California. Things were happening all over, but they focused on specific areas, and the stigma stuck. Cowboys must all live in Texas and Oklahoma, New Yorkers are all rude and loud, and so on. Well I am sorry about wikipedia..lol..it's a case of finding a source for what one knows.It's like the cotton that we can grow here, is not the egyptian cotton, but the cotton with the finer thread will grow on Sea Island just off the coast of SC. | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 6:02:46 AM |
In reference to the information about the book Complicity as well as the other reference I gave to you, you have to read them, you have to understand what I posted for you, out of the kindness of my heart, was a review, the book covers how the North profited and prolonged slavery and does indeed speak of abolitionist's who owned slaves, in fact, alot of abolitionist's owned slaves, they were hypocrites, they would aid in running slave mills and then turn around and stand on their soapboxes speaking out against slavery. Too many people rely on internet sources, in college, internet sources are more times to none held as unreliable, and believe it or not, REAL books are to be utilized for research papers or reliable articles. Therefore, back at you,,,,DUH!!!!!!
You're moving the goal posts, now instead of most, it's "a lot" now I'm curious about this precise measurement system you're using.
Anyway, you can't find an online source for this. So I'm just going to dismiss your claim as frankly your word doesn't mean a damn thing to me.
Did I view someone stating that not many slaves served for the Confederacy? If I'm not mistaken, there were over 90,000 slaves who served for the Confederacy, they were in Antietam among many other battles and they were just as patriotic as the "whites", at least according to history. In the article which I wrote on this topic, I found a quote from a slave which stated "General, the only cowardly blood I have in my veins is the white blood"!
http://www.bluffton.edu/~bergerd/essays/trclark.htm
TRUMAN R. CLARK* Clark is a professor of American history (now emeritus) at Tomball College. A racist fabrication has sprung up in the last decade: that the Confederacy had "thousands" of African- American slaves "fighting" in its armies during the Civil War.
Unfortunately, even some African-American men today have gotten conned into Putting on Confederate uniforms to play "re-enactors" in an army that fought to ensure that their ancestors would remain slaves.
There are two underlying points of this claim: first, to say that slavery wasn't so bad, because after all, the slaves themselves fought to preserve the slave South; and second, that the Confederacy wasn't really fighting for slavery. Both these notions may make some of our contemporaries feel good, but neither is historically accurate.
When one speaks of "soldiers" and "fighting" in a war, one is not talking about slaves who were taken from their masters and forced to work on military roads and other military construction projects; nor is one talking about slaves who were taken along by their masters to continue the duties of a personal valet that they performed back on the plantation. Of course, there were thousands of African-Americans forced into these situations, but they were hardly "soldiers fighting."
Another logical point against this wacky modern idea of a racially integrated Confederate army has to do with the prisoner of war issue during the Civil War. Through 1862, there was an effective exchange system of POWs between the two sides. This entirely broke down in 1863, however, because the Confederacy refused to see black Union soldiers as soldiers - they would not be exchanged, but instead were made slaves (or, as in the 1864 Fort Pillow incident, simply murdered after their surrender). At that, the United States refused to exchange any Southern POWs and the prisoner of war camps on both sides grew immensely in numbers and misery the rest of the war.
If the Confederacy had black soldiers in its armies, why didn't it see black men as soldiers?
By the way, all the Confederate soldiers captured by Union troops were white men. If there were "thousands" of black soldiers in the Confederate armies, why were none of them among the approximately 215,000 soldiers captured by the U. S. forces?
If there were thousands of African-American men fighting in the Confederate armies, they apparently cleverly did so without Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, the members of the Confederate congress or any of the white soldiers of the Confederacy knowing about it. (I can just imagine some former Confederate soldier, told in 1892 that hundreds of the men in his army unit during the Civil War were black, snapping his fingers and saying, "I knew there was something different about those guys!")
The South was running short of soldiers as the war dragged on, however, and some people began to suggest that it would be better to use slaves to fight than to lose. As late as three weeks before the Civil War came to an end, the members of the Confederate congress (and Lee and Davis) were hotly debating the question of whether to start using slaves in the Southern armies.
If, as some folks in the 1990s claim, there were already "thousands" of black troops in the Confederate armies, why were the leaders of the Confederacy still debating about whether or not they should start bringing them in?
The very accurate point made then by opponents of this legislation was, as one Georgia leader stated, "If slaves will make good soldiers our whole theory of slavery is wrong." Southern newspaper editors blasted the idea as "the very doctrine which the war was commenced to put down," a "surrender of the essential and distinctive principle of Southern civilization."
And what was that "essential and distinctive principle of Southern civilization"? Let's listen to the people of the times. The vice president of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, said on March 21, 1861, that the Confederacy was "founded . . . its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based on this great physical, philosophical and moral truth."
What was the "very doctrine" which the South had entered into war to destroy? Let's go to the historical documents, the words of the people in those times. When Texas seceded from the Union in March 1861, its secession declaration was entirely about one subject: slavery. It said that Thomas Jefferson's words in the Declaration of Independence in 1776 - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" - were "the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color . . . a doctrine at war with nature . . . and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law."
But, by March 13, 1865, the Confederacy had its back against the wall, and by the less than overwhelming margin of 40 to 37 in the House, and nine to eight in the Senate, the Confederate congress approved a bill to allow Jefferson Davis to require a quota of black soldiers from each state. Presumably (although the bill did not say so) slaves who fought would, if they survived the war, be freed. Southerners who opposed using blacks in the army noted that this idea had its problems: First, it was obvious that the Yankee armies would soon free them anyway; and second, if slavery was so wonderful and happy for black people, why would one be willing to risk death to win his freedom?
The war was virtually over by then, and when black Union soldiers rode into Richmond on April 3, they found two companies of black men beginning to train as potential soldiers. (When those black men had marched down the street in Confederate uniforms, local whites had pelted them with mud.) None got into the war, and Lee surrendered on April 9.
Yes, thousands of African-American men did fight in the Civil War - about 179,000. About 37,000 of them died in uniform. But they were all in the Army (or Navy) of the United States of America. The Confederate veterans who were still alive in the generations after the war all knew that and said so.
Finally, these modem non historians say that slavery couldn't have been a main cause of the Civil War (never mind the words of Alexander Stephens and the various declarations of secession), because most of the Confederate soldiers didn't own slaves.
As modern historians such as Pulitzer Prize-winner James M. McPherson point out, the truth was that most white people in the South knew that the great bulwark of the white-supremacy system they cherished was slavery, whether or not they personally owned slaves.
"Freedom is not possible without slavery," was a typical endorsement of this underlying truth about the slave South. Without slavery, white nonslaveholders would be no better than black men.
The slave South rested upon a master-race ideology, as many generations of white Southerners stated it and lived it, from the 1600s until 1865. There is an uncomfortable parallel in our century with the master- race ideology of Nazi Germany. First, millions of the men who bravely fought and died for the Third Reich were not Nazis, but they weren't exactly fighting for the human rights of Jews or gypsies. And second, yes, as was pointed out in the movie Schindler's List, many thousands of Jews did slave labor in military production factories in Nazi Germany - but that certainly didn't make them "thousands of Jewish soldiers fighting for Germany.
We can believe in the "black soldiers fighting" in the Confederate armies just as soon as historians discover the "thousands" of Jews in the SS and Gestapo. | |
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Nona37
| Joined: 12/4/2007 Msg: 169 | |
| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 6:32:46 AM | As I stated with not only ONE but TWO sources I gave you, if you are too lazy to read them, then I guess we SHOULD not discuss it any further, for it's no good to kick a dead horse, if you do not want to research facts, TRUE sources that is, that is not my problem, therefore Charles, say as you will, for I gave two really great sources, is it really my fault you do not want to leave the computer? I don't think so.
In reference to YOUR source on black slaves fighting in the Confederacy, yes, it's a source supporting ONE opinion, there are many more supporting that black slaves DID indeed fight for the Confederacy.
http://blackinformant.com/2005/02/21/did-black-americans-actually-fight-for-the-confederacy/
http://www.rebelgray.com/BlackReasons.htm
http://www.stonewallbrigade.com/articles_black_confeds.html
There are far too many that support black slaves which did indeed fight for the Confederacy, to even list here.
Happy Reading, and these are internet sources which if you capable of looking up support black slaves fighting in the Confederacy.
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 11:04:12 AM | Nona37 Joined: 12/4/2007 Msg: 166 view profile History the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 4 12 AM I'm back on the thread, I was banned from the forums for three day, what a shock there!!!! lol
~ welcome back ~ nona37 ~ I know charles is happy! ~ I know your a little salty but what you do? !!! I have a friend ~ in England, says she band ~ till 2010! so it could have been worse `
You guys amaze me with all your facts and references ~ wish I knew how to draw up all that information the way you do!
As Is ~ I must just stick with what I know for a fact or at least I think I do. ~ It's nice to know that I'll be corrected by someone ~ as it is ~ I'm still fighting with spelling and grammer error.
I attempt to enlighten and inform ~ off the cuff ~ but tell me ~ if I wish to check some of your references ~ is that a copy and paste to the browser ~ like google?
what's " cut " mean. ~
and Charles , ~ how do you know that there wasn't any black southern solders captured or killed ~ that was one messy war ~ we still are finding new information about all american conflicts ~ Nam, Korea, WWI and II ~ ~ and other things.
~~ Slavery~ not completely off topic I found it interesting ~ that the children of Isreal ~ supposedly held in boundage in Egypt by the Pharoe King ~~ the story seems to be come apart ~ regarding ~ the claim of slaverly ~ Seems that many were more contractors then slaves ~ ~ Seems to blow biblical accounts out of the water ~ trivia! ~~ but not really! ~dar | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 12:37:01 PM | What I find sad and distressful is the fact that the Yankee-Rebel mentality exists still. There was a time in our history that the animosity and conflictive pronouncements were valid and relevant. Can we fast forward to this new millenium? We are a collective amalgam known as the UNITED States of America. All the arguments only serve to perpetuate the divisive mentality towards our fellow countrymen based soley on their circumstantial geographical location.
How can we be broadly paint a person based soley on the circumstance of being born in one state or another? One has no control over that event and where it occurs. It's simply ignorant and narrow-minded to believe that any one of us has superior value as a human being over another.
What purpose does harboring a mindset of north vs south serve "we the people"? | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 12:40:15 PM | News Flash - Civil War is over. The South lost. The Union was saved. And,afterwards,it another 100 years before all Americans were given the rights that all Americans were supposed to receive after the war.
Is there anything that can be added to this discussion? | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 1:24:12 PM | Now, now, now, people don't go attacking our friend "charlesedm". I personally agree with many of his facts and he has a great grasp of many of the details regarding of the conflict. He is very correct in how most negros served in the South. Plantation owners were very opposed to having their slaves doing anything else but working. So, most slaves never played much of a role in the Confederate Army or Navy and those who did acted just as Charlesedm said.
"who were taken along by their masters to continue the duties of a personal valet that they performed back on the plantation."
However, there is no doubt that Negros served in the Confederate Military there is plenty of records to show this to be true but they were nearly all free men of Color not slaves... That's a big difference in classification, oddly it was nothing uncommon for a free man of color to be a Slave owner himself but that number would be very small just as it was with slave owning whites. Nine out of ten people in the South didn't own slaves and therefor their involvement in succession isn't based on Slavery. More importantly the Slave owners opposed succession the most and sought to keep such a war from occuring.
While I have always said slavery was part of the issue it was not what sparked the war. There is no doubt that the dominating attitude toward the Negro race was one of belittlement in both the North and the South, that wasn't a one sided affair. So, I agree that the thought that Slaves or Free men of color in huge volumes served the Confederacy just isn't true. The Offical war records doesn't support such a claim...
But agian the subject of Slavery is always the fall back card when the evidence shows that that there was far more at issue than just slavery. Those who don't know differently cling to that like a babe to a tit. It's far too dangerous if people begin to realize the truth for the lie must prevail because the Lie is all they have ever known.
After 11 States withdrew from the union and a few months into his office Lincoln began to call on Congress (Mind you that Congress at this point consisted only of the States remaining in the Union) to confirm and legalize his action to wage war on the South. His demand upon Congress was brought before the Senate 15 times and it never passed. Then after twenty months of warefare, the Supreme Court of the United States (67 U. S. Reports page 668) said "Congress had no power delegated to it to make war upon a State, and that the President had no authority to make war." | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 1:54:27 PM |
PrimeWoman What I find sad and distressful is the fact that the Yankee-Rebel mentality exists still. Your so correct but the fault lays blame far outside of the South. How long is the North going to hold the blame for the issue of slavery at the doorstep of the South? Slavery begin in the North, the foundations of New York and Boston were all built upon the Slave trade. How long is the North going to portray the South as a land full of country bumkins, hicks, crackers, etc? Why is it only the South is judged by it's simplictiy and not it's achivements? When one reads about the Egptians, Romans, or Greeks we hear nothing but praise about their accomplishments but each of them had slavery as their supporting structure but that it is regulated to a paragraph or footnote... Obviously if people want to change attitutdes then they need to stop ridiculing the southern population, it's that simple...
Can we fast forward to this new millenium? That's exactly what were talking about... The issue of automony was never settled and all those issues left unresolved from the dismantling of the Constitution play a very import role in our times.
We are a collective amalgam known as the UNITED States of America. You got assimulated quiet well with the brainwashing? I can hardly fault you for this for it's what the governmental propaganda engine is all about... There is no United States! The word "United" would suggest that everyone is here of their own free will which clearly isn't the case. If the States can't leave then they are not United a better name would be " Subjugated States of America" for it reflects the true reality.
It's simply ignorant and narrow-minded to believe that any one of us has superior value as a human being over another.
That is so very true but self rule isn't about superiority but rather guarding against it! The South just wanted to leave and for all practiacal purposes if put to a vote today the South would still choose to govern itself. It isn't North vs South it's more you go your way and let them go theirs... | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 2:20:19 PM |
TRUMAN R. CLARK* Clark is a professor of American history (now emeritus) at Tomball College. A racist fabrication has sprung up in the last decade: that the Confederacy had "thousands" of African- American slaves "fighting" in its armies during the Civil War.
Well, from what I've come across while researching this, it would seem NOT to be a "racist fabrication".
Estimates of Black Confederate Serving the South
How many black Confederates served the South in combat or direct battlefield support ? The numbers vary wildly from 15,000 to 120,000. The truth remains that nobody has an accurate figure. My estimate is that 65,000 blacks scattered across the entire South followed the Confederate armies from one battlefield to the next from 1861 to 1865. Larger numbers of blacks loyally served the Confederacy, not as soldiers but as employees of the Army, Navy, Confederate government or the individual State governments.
Where does this estimate of 65,000 come from ?
Dr. Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission, observed that Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's troops in occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."
If we assume Dr. Steiner is somewhat reliable and assume that this 3,000 Negroes of Jackson's troops are a representative number of black Confederates in a typical Confederate fighting force, then we may be able to make a rough calculation. First we must determine how many men were part of Jackson's troops ? If Lee had 50,000, was Jackson's force, 25,000 ? That would be a likely estimate. So then what percentage is 3,000 of 25,000 ? Answer: 12 %. So that would tell us that 12% of Jackson's force was black Confederates. Now, if we assume that Steiner meant 3,000 blacks soldiers in Lee's entire 50,000 force that crossed the Potomac, then the percentage of black Confederates is reduced to 6%. Either way it is calculated, black Confederates were a considerable percentage of the total Confederate fighting force.
To extend this reasoning across the entire Confederate Army, what does this represent ? That depends on the total number of men that served in the CS Army, which is also in itself debatable as muster rolls are notoriously incomplete.
For example, let's use for example the 1,000,000 listed names in Broadfoot's Confederate roster compiled by the National Archives. Yes, there is some repeat names, but let's use that figure as an example. What percentage is 12% ? This would translate to 120,000 black Confederates and half that, 60,000. As such, the 65,000 estimate is not an unreasonable estimate. Debatable ? Yes. Refutable ? Absolutely not. Black Confederates imaginary ? Ridiculous
Could Dr. Steiner have been wrong regarding the numbers ? Yes, absolutely. In fact, many Army officers routinely made mistakes at estimating the enemies numerical strengths. However, the smaller the body of troops one is estimating, the more likely that number is correct. While Steiner failed to accurately estimate Lee's total forces (I recall he estimated 80,000 instead of 50,000), in my opinion, it is unlikely he erred as significantly with a handful of 3,000 black troops. So even if Steiner made an overestimate of 30%, we still are in the range of 40,000 to 80,000.
ttp://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm# Estimates%20of%20Black%20Confederate %20Serving%20the%20South
More Accounts of Black Confederates: A letter by a Federal officer: Col. Giles Smith commanded the First Brigade and Col. T. Kilby Smith, Fifty-fourth Ohio, the Fourth. I communicated to these officers General Sherman's orders and charged Colonel Smith, Fifty-fourth Ohio, specially with the duty of clearing away the road to the crossing and getting it into the best condition for effecting our crossing that he possibly could. The work was vigorously pressed under his immediate supervision and orders, and he devoted himself to it with as much energy and activity as any living man could employ. It had to be prosecuted under the fire of the enemy's sharpshooters, protected as well as the men might be by our skirmishers on the bank, who were ordered to keep up so vigorous a fire that the enemy should not dare to lift their heads above their rifle-pits; but the enemy, and especially their armed negroes, did dare to rise and fire, and did serious execution upon our men. The casualties in the brigade were 11 killed, 40 wounded, and 4 missing; aggregate, 55. Very respectfully, your obedient servant, D. STUART, Brigadier-General, Commanding."
“There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the…rebels.”
- Frederick Douglas
"Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."
Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862
Confederate General John B. Gordon (Army of Northern Virginia) reported that all of his troops were in favor of Colored troops and that it’s adoption would have “greatly encouraged the army”. Gen. Lee was anxious to receive regiments of black soldiers. The Richmond Sentinel reported on 24 Mar 1864, “None…will deny that our servants are more worthy of respect than the motley hordes which come against us.” “Bad faith [to black Confederates] must be avoided as an indelible dishonor.”
There are existing photographs of black Confederate soldiers, while they were in service, and in the years afterwards when they were veterans.
There are some respected authorities on the matter.
Edward C. Smith Director of American Studies at American University in Washington, Vice President of the Abraham Lincoln Institute, Smithsonian Institution scholar authority on the participation of blacks on the Southern side in the War Between the States.
I think that realizing that blacks served in the Confederate army may help us to understand life in those times perhaps a little better, in the same way that those black slave owners can.
It doesn't take away from the horror of slavery, nor justify it's abuses.
It does perhaps offer us all today (black and white) a chance to see a side of the Civil War period that's been minimized, and to explore what that may offer. To simply write them off serves little purpose, and (in the case of those who fought with bravery and devotion with the Confederate forces in battle) , insults the memory of those men.
Their motivations may have been to their state, or to obtain their freedom, or both.
I don't think anyone would dare to claim that they fought for slavery , and (at least from what I understand) the same could be said for a great number of the white Southerners that they fought along side of. | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 2:46:36 PM |
cocytus News Flash - Civil War is over.
News Flash for you - The very fact that people are still talking about it proves how so very wrong you are. That war never ended and it still being waged... Not a single one of us was around in 1860 but yet the struggle for Southern Independence continues.
The South lost. If you believe when the guns went silent on a late Spring day in 1865 that ended the war you've been greatly mislead. The one biggest mistake the North made was not carrying through with the entire annihilation of the southern population.
The Union was saved No, it wasn't saved it was replaced with a federalism form of government!
And,afterwards,it another 100 years before all Americans were given the rights that all Americans were supposed to receive after the war. O' I agree that the last vestiges of slavery in the traditional sense reagarding to the mistreatment of negro's didn't end in the 1860's but rather the 1960's. Slavery was a very disgusting practice and I believe I can speak for everyone when I say we are all greatful it ended here on this continent. The sad part is that it still exsist on the planet as LeVar Burton discovered in a documentry he was doing on Africian Americans and Africa... Oddly he seemed shocked to learn of this and that goes to prove how effective the propaganda engine has become. | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 4:47:40 PM |
Cottonblossom Why would it be named after a Union General?
Well, there is lots of rumors that say it was done as an insult but I have failed to ever find a proven statement where that was the intended purpose. There are however strong indications that McClellan's name was a logical choice for the fort. Because General McClellan was credited with the quick training and mobilization of the Army of the Potomac during the Civil War and since the creation of this new military base was to be for the speedy mobilization and to quickly train men it does seem fitting, if somewhat unusual for a Southern fort to be named for a Northern general...
The War Department formally established Camp McClellan on July 18, 1917. The camp was named in honor of Major General George B. McClellan
Can you explain the burning of Atlanta?..Why did Sherman try to destroy Atlanta?
The Offical records show that he was ordered by Grant to "create havoc and destruction of all resources that would be beneficial to the enemy." on May 4, 1864, Sherman began the Atlanta Campaign. His mission was to carve a 220-mile swath of destruction in his fiery March to the Sea and was a dileberate "War of Attrition" or in Roman times what was known as a "putative war." William T. Sherman, created a new brand of warfare in which the objective was not simply the enemy's armies but also his economic resources and population. Sherman's troops, declared historian John Bennett Walters, "left behind them a trail of terror and desolation, burned homes and towns, devastated fields and plundered storehouses, and a record for systematic torture, pillage, and vandalism unequaled." The March to the sea which began at Atlanta had been commanded by a man "more evil than Ivan the Terrible or Genghis Khan." These were no heroes. They were thieves, murderers, rapists, arsonists, trespassers."
Atlanta was not only a military stronghold for the Confederacy but a symbolic wall of resistance to the North as well as for the South. Its capture was second only to that of Richmond (the Confederate Captial)... The capture of Atlanta was always a Union objective but it was Sherman that turned that objective into a flaming sign to those in his path of the fate that awaited them... It's interesting to note that he was never court-martialed for war crimes...
It's a myth about the civil war being a war of brother aganist brother. While it's true that almost everyone involved in the conflict had a realitve on the otherside (Yes, even Lincoln had realitves enlisted on the Confederate side) and it's true that some brothers by birth fought on opposing sides against one another. The portrail of them being anything else but enemies is simple wrong. They made up their minds that they was willing to kill one another if it came to it, hardly a sign of brotherly love.
Cottonblossom; are you aware that in your home state LaGrange College, was sacked and burned by Union troops in 1863. Also interesting is that Sherman once headquartered there. Today only a nine-ton stone monument silently guards the ghosts of the once bustling little town of LaGrange and its vibrant college.
"American Diver" a second prototype of a submersible torpedo boat was the inspiration of James McClintock, Baxter Watson, and Horace Hunley. Who had to scuttle Their first prototype, "Pioneer," in Lake Pontchartrain New Orleans after the fall of the city in 1862. The fled to Mobile where they built the "American Diver" Mclintock experimented with different motive methods, including steam and battery power. However, in the end they went with a hand cranked drive. On its first time out, it was swamped and lost while under tow outside of Mobile Bay. Its location remains a mystery?
Months later, with additional investors they built their third submarine, which would later become known as the Hunley. It was hand cranked by a crew of 8, and used hand pumped ballast tanks, fore and aft, to submerge and surface. Soon, the Hunley was tested and demonstrated a successful attack against a dummy target using a towed contact torpedo. The military approved its use and put the Hunley on a train to Charleston. | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 6:56:49 PM | As I stated with not only ONE but TWO sources I gave you, if you are too lazy to read them, then I guess we SHOULD not discuss it any further, for it's no good to kick a dead horse, if you do not want to research facts, TRUE sources that is, that is not my problem, therefore Charles, say as you will, for I gave two really great sources, is it really my fault you do not want to leave the computer? I don't think so.
Your use of capitals isn't really making much of a point. You're "two great sources' arn't atainable, and oddly enough despite the massive amount of information freely available on the internet, you can't show any abolitionists who owned slaves. It's a dead issue. It's your point to prove and you can't prove it.
Your websites amusingly enough are exactly the kind of historical revisionist types that my article was speaking about.
Hey here is something for you.
The black troops, however, faced greater peril than white troops when captured by the Confederate Army. In 1863 the Confederate Congress threatened to punish severely officers of black troops and to enslave black soldiers. As a result, President Lincoln issued General Order 233, threatening reprisal on Confederate prisoners of war (POWs) for any mistreatment of black troops. Although the threat generally restrained the Confederates, black captives were typically treated more harshly than white captives. In perhaps the most heinous known example of abuse, Confederate soldiers shot to death black Union soldiers captured at the Fort Pillow, TN, engagement of 1864. Confederate General Nathan B. Forrest witnessed the massacre and did nothing to stop it.
Seems the South didn't respect black northern soldier, guess it had nothing to do with slavery.
http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/E/blacklostcause/blc03.htm
On the opposite side of the debate, professional historians Glatthaar, McPerson and Robert Krick have analyzed, between them, over 25,000 letters of soldiers, 1,500 manuscript collections, and Confederate service records of 150,000 soldiers, and have all encountered very few accounts of black soldiers.(20) Therefore, they see no reason to attach a large number to the individual blacks who took up arms occasionally.
Clearly, a lot depends on the reading of accounts and sources, otherwise there would not be such a different result, with on both sides a similar confidence in one's own findings. The most powerful argument that can be made against the case of a significant number of blacks fighting in the Confederate armies, and deriving a large number of black soldiers of the accounts, is the fact that enlistment of coloreds was simply prohibited by the Confederate government. In fact, this, and the notion that secession had been largely about the preservation of slavery and race relations,(21) is why most historians dismiss the possibility of large numbers of black Confederates.
In his study of Confederate emancipation and the eventual enlistment of colored soldiers in the Southern army, Bruce Levine, professor of history at the University of California, argues that there cannot have been large units of black fighting men, because there was no societal foundation; the entire notion of letting blacks fight went against what the Confederacy stood for and struggled against. Indeed, that is why it took so long for the government to accept the possibility of colored enlistment. There may have been a few who championed the cause in order to save the Cause, but most were too stubborn.(22)
As stated before, in his own admission, Rollins relies heavily on anecdotal evidence, and so do the other authors. Anecdotal in itself need not necessarily work against an argument. In fact, the presence of women in armies-dressed up as men, or serving as spies-is not found in official records, either, yet they are treated as heroes who defied convention. They are recognized as exceptional, but are honored all the same.(23) Women, on the other hand, run much less the chance of being used as the poster child for the Confederate Lost Cause, and are more readily accepted than gun toting blacks.
These objections cast some light, if rather a shadow, on the proposed numer of 30,000 fighting blacks. It is, after all, questionable how one can calculate such a large number from scattered anecdotal evidence alone. Moreover, both amidst controversy and in communication, a number as large as 30,000 would have been noticed, if not abundantly, at least more frequently than the abovementioned Civil War historians have found.
Looking at the accounts more specifically, the loyal slave of Jordan's essay, who could not take an oath that his master would not take, may have exclaimed this for other reasons than mere loyalty: he could hardly declare openly that he would easily go against his master-who would never swear loyalty to the Union. Jordan's interpretation is therefore too simple. His southern angle is illustrated also in his continuous reference to slaves as "Afro-Virginians," which is both an anachronism as a misnomer: such a hyphenated epithet was unthinkable in the nineteenth century South, because blacks were not recognized (let alone acknowledged) as citizens.
Rollins' examples are also interpreted naively askew, for the black sniper had to choose between fighting or being sold away from his wife and family. Fighting for the South rather seems like a lesser of two evils than a sign of pride. General Gordon's remark about "strange stories" of a "Negro marksman" at Fort Wagner illustrates mainly that that the balance of blacks fighting for the Union and for the Confederacy is disproportionately out of kilter, as the 54th Massachusetts were on the other side.(24)
On a more scholarly note, the third example is accompanied by an incomplete footnote, making the story of Kelly untraceable.(25) In the same line, Rollins often relies on unclear accounts, attributed to "an observer" or "onlookers" who remain mostly unknown, partly because they were cited thus in newspaper articles, and partly because Rollins uses obscure sources.(26) A least obscure source he relies heavily on, is H.C. Blackerby's Blacks in Blue and Gray, which borrows extensively from accounts and articles of the post-war period.
Many anecdotes are rather ambiguous: a comparison between different accounts of the same scene often leads to different viewings. Soldiers in one story, the blacks involved in a skirmish are referred to as mere "teamsters" or servants in another.(27) There are other reasons for misinterpretation: southern soldiers were often filthy and sunburnt, and could easily be identified as being dark-skinned; also, blacks donning old uniforms, wearing their masters' guns could easily be viewed as soldiers.(28) For these reasons, the accounts and articles, specifically when written shortly after the Civil War, should be studied carefully for their right historical value.
Pensions, also, are not clear-cut evidence for the presence of black soldiers in Southern armies, because they were often awarded to a group that could be so broadly defined as to include the workers and body servants. In Virginia, for instance, pensions became eligible for anyone who "accompanied a soldier [...] or who served as a cook, hostler, or teamster, or who worked in breastworks under any command of the army."(29) Having accompanied the army, or even having been wounded, did not require being a soldier, actively fighting, or merely carrying a musket; all it took was being associated with the armed forces.
A final critique is aimed at the photos often used to illustrate both that blacks did serve in the armies of the South. Granting that photos do not lie, their usage brings several difficulties. A photograph cannot elaborate on the exact role of the blacks it portrays, or the position they fulfilled in the army: it merely illustrates proximity. At most, they deliver an incomplete story, and conclusions drawn from them should be tentative.
If, after scrutiny, evidence is so meager, there must be an additional reason why a large number of academics and non-scholars nonetheless believe that there was a significant body of black soldiers fighting for the South.
It is, partly, because the scholars who propose such amounts of black soldiers are misinterpreting the available sources.(30) Whereas professional historians specialized in Civil War history discard the possibility that large numbers of blacks served in Southern ranks, the academics most actively promulgating black Confederates are not, in fact, trained historians. The risk is great, therefore, that they lack the scrutiny needed to make a correct interpretation and take sources on face value.
The sources used by them are, after all, largely unreliable, as is explained by Bruce Chadwick, in The Reel Civil War. In the post-bellum, pre-film era (roughly 1865 to 1920) a historiographical trend of revisionism and reconciliation flourished.(31) This trend was characterized by an emphasis on the personal endurance of horrors in the war by both North and South, and, to serve reconcilation, any blame the South had in provoking the conflict was largely ignored or smoothed over, thus opening the way to a glorification of the antebellum South. Consequently, Southerners should never been seen again as evil slave owners.(32) It was during this period also, that the pro-Confederate publications, such as the Confederate Veteran were started; the stories in which, combined with anniversaries and reunions, added to nostalgia, feeding the growing belief "that at least the Southern boys were just as brave and heroic as the Northern boys."(33)
If that period was mainly concerned with "accomplish[ing] the essential task of solidifying a united nation,"(34) since the 1950s, a growing racial awareness has shifted Civil War history writing, which consquently contended that slavery was an important cause of the Civil War.(35) When the end of the twentieth century gave rise to a new branch of Civil War historiography, those historians had to include this racial awareness in their search for what David W. Blight, professor of history at Yale University, dubs: a "national narrative for what the war was about."(36) If slavery did not fit well into this "new nationalism" of the end of the twentieth century in which the South was pardoned by mere devotion (i.e, "devotion alone made everyone right and no one truly wrong"),(37) the solution would be to get rid of slavery as a grave wrong and cause of the war.
This appears to be exactly what the academics have done to support the idea of a significant number of black soldiers: they use the sources of the first historiographic, reconciliatory period, the idea of a shared devotion, which not only justified the South, but also solidified the nation. Segar and Barrow, for example, sift out "important passages" from books written between 1865 and 1925, and use The Confederate Veteran as an "invaluable source."(38) The important difference is, however, that the area of focus is the one mainly left out in the earlier period; thus combining the reconciliation of the "new nationalism" with the racial awareness of preceding era. Hence, the implication seems to be the extra motivation beyond mere truth value.
It seems that the best case that can be made for large numbers of colored Confederates is based on sloppy evidence that cannot and does not convince the large majority of historians. Many of the accounts that the promotors of black Confederates rely on are ambiguous, partisan, or the result of revisionism in history. Sometimes, however, Rollins et al misrepresent the testimonies made, such as ascribing loyalty to a slave who may just fear for his hide, or by referring to blacks as "Afro-Virginians."
These untrained historians too easily derive favorable conclusions from unclear sources and are sincerely under the impression that they honor a large group that has unjustly been left out of the major historiography, motivated, it seems, by a union of reconciliation and racial awareness of earlier historiographical periods. Their remedy is the production of books and articles, backed up by faulty scholarship, which lead to the conclusion that large numbers of loyal blacks must have accompanied the Southern armies and have actively handled rifles.
A factor in the accumulation of such a number may be the fact that the accounts of fighting slaves have been concentrated into a growing number of essays, thus adding to the notion that there must have been a significant body of them. The scattered fractions of accounts and indications were a much more realistic representation of the amount of blacks fighting; indeed, one might say fighting blacks were as scattered and obscure as the sources initially were.
Now, most laymen are not historians and are much more easily persuaded by the face value of documents, especially when compiled into such neat volumes as the one published by Segars and Barrow. They are, in addition, often swayed by a present feeling of nationalism or regional pride, which blurs skepticism. Thus the faulty scholarship serves as an important source for annotation in online essays that promote the notion that thousands of blacks did fight along with their grandfathers, and that, indeed, the Civil War was not about slavery after all. Not necessarily does the South rise again, but apologia for the Lost Cause, for the Old South, proliferates, and it soothes national memory.
Those championing an increase in the alotted number of colored Confederates, concluding that the Confederacy was worth fighting for by blacks, forget that often even white people were moved to war by much less honorable motives than the Cause for the preservation of Old South values. Indeed, it seems that blacks fought mainly out of self-interest and of care for their family.
Although the promotions of false notions is regrettable, there is something to be said for an increased attention for the forgotten, loyal blacks. Indeed, if anything can be learned from the testimonies and sources, it is that blacks are not to be treated as a monolithic group that automatically sided with the North. Also, a careful professional approach of the issue can serve to educate people and correct the wrongful interpretation of this element in history. Therefore, a solid case can be made to give more attention to this obscure corner in history.
If The Littlest Rebel was pervaded with racist depictions of blacks and slaves, the portrayal of Holt, the colored character in Ride with the Devil, is one of the more distinguished accounts of Southern blacks in movies. As a former slave, he fights alongside his old neighbor and long time friend for the South in Missouri. When his friend dies, Holt admits that his entire purpose of fighting has dissipated, clarifying that he did not fight for the South perse, but out of loyalty to the one who bought his freedom. All of which seems perfectly balanced from a historical viewpoint.
Perhaps professional historians can learn from popular culture and dig into interesting stories that have taken place in the margins of history. This may, in turn, influence other, large productions in popular culture, such as The Last Full Measure, the final sequel to Gods and Generals and Gettysburg, two films that both largely ignored the many cooks and servants accompanying the army of Northern Virginia.(43) Who knows, it might even feature a few black companies at the end of the war-though they will not be given orders by a colonel with blonde curls and blue ribbons.
Real historians don't lend any credence to this nonsense. Doesn't stop historical revisionists though. | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 7:11:10 PM | Some see it simple ~ they want it simple ~ that way there is understanding and the comfort that goes with this understanding. The north and south fought, one won and the other lost End of story.
You folks are free to leave at you leasure ~ thats not where this thread is going and it will proably just bore you to continue.
The means to an end ~ and what is that end? Federal dominion?
Sam Houston had some interesting things to say ~ Many here in Texas didn't wish to join the union, offering bitter protest. I offer no references ~ but Sam Houston ~ more of less said , something you might expect from the Borg, "If the union wishes you to join ~ resistance is futile"
I'd personal prefer to have stayed a republic ~ The Fed don't understand my border issues with Mexico. ~ They don't understand our educational needs. ~ I could go on and on why it'd be for the good for everyone conserned. ~ We could regulate ourself ` thank you ~ you could hold us responsible, for air pollution, ground water , etc, we wish to be good neighbors ~ Welfare State's could come to grips with the fact they are in red ink ~ and figure their own way out of it.
Ronnie said , "lets get the federal government off the people back." but how do you do that when each departmental budget depends on a budget larger then the last ~ They spent it! ~ if they might spent less ~ the budget will be less. ~ Thats not going to happen. ~ The Fed is a world where no one is accountable!
The boy that was killed by a tiger last week ~ The Fed ( FDA) is my understanding , controls the laws that regulate how animals are kept in zoos. ~ No ones suggested that the Fed might be liable. ~ But we paid good money for this regulation and enforcement.
I am personally greatly displease the way the Federal spends money ~ under the present adminstration. ~ It does not serve my needs well.
and they dare to call me a liberal ~ for the love of logic ~ exactly , how's that suppose to work?
and there is little control or accountability for huge some of money! ~ dar | |
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| the civil war Posted: 1/10/2008 7:40:47 PM | oh! read Tony Horwitz' (pulitzer prize winner) "Confederates in the Attic, Dispatches from the Unfishished Civil War" and you'll know that the 'War between the States" is alive and well in the south...really humourous, informative and a great read! (I am in the middle of it now, but happy to share it, let me know)
edited to say, "no, I did not read this thread, apologies" | |
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