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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 2:08:24 AM | | I would love to find that quote in the Bible. Not being an avid reader of it, I am not sure where to find it. "spare the rod and spoil the child'. For my messed up mind would just take that statement to mean, spare the rod is what you should do, and spoil the child the way one should be. But then I never read the Bible with the same interpretation as most, so I don't read it much anymore. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 3:43:24 AM | The phrase "spare the rod and spoil the child" is not actually in the Bible. The closest thing I can find is a line in Proverbs: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." -- Proverbs 13:24
Or if you prefer the more colloquial translations of the Bible:
"Those who spare the rod hate their children, but those who love them are diligent to discipline them."
I think this makes it clear, however, that Solomon did not mean for the reader to spare his rod in favor of spoiling his child. According to Solomon, only someone who hates his or her children would consider that course of action.
One more thing to remember is that the Bible is full of metaphors, so the "rod" could simply be a metaphor for a firm righteous teaching as opposed to an actual physical item. The term "iron rod" for example has been used in some context to refer to religious doctrine.
For example: "He shall rule [them] with a rod of iron" (Revelation, 2:27, 12:5, 19:15) referring to the concept of rulership being strong as a rod of iron, rather than actually using a rod of iron in order to rule (or again, the metaphor for scripture / doctrine being a "rod of iron").
As for the source of the phrase "spare the rod and spoil the child", the oldest reference I can find is from Samuel Butler (1612 - 1680), in his Hudibras (pt. ii. canto 1, lines 839-844), who writes:
“If matrimony and hanging go
By dest’ny, why not whipping too?
What med’cine else can cure the fits
Of lovers when they lose their wits?
Love is a boy, by poets styled.
Then spare the rod and spoil the child.”
But more likely, the phrase was made most popular with the publishing of The Legend of Sleepy Hollow -- Washington Irving (1783 - 1859).
"The school-house stood in a rather lonely but pleasant situation just at the foot of a woody hill, with a brook running close by, and a formidable birch tree growing at one end of it. From hence the low murmur of his pupils’ voices, conning over their lessons, might be heard in a drowsy summer’s day, like the hum of a bee-hive; interrupted now and then by the authoritative voice of the master, in the tone of menace or command; or, peradventure, by the appalling sound of the birch, as he urged some tardy loiterer along the flowery path of knowledge. Truth to say, he was a conscientious man, and ever bore in mind the golden maxim, "Spare the rod and spoil the child."—Ichabod Crane’s scholars certainly were not spoiled.
"I would not have it imagined, however, that he was one of those cruel potentates of the school, who joy in the smart of their subjects; on the contrary, he administered justice with discrimination rather than severity; taking the burthen off the backs of the weak, and laying it on those of the strong. Your mere puny stripling, that winced at the least flourish of the rod, was passed by with indulgence; but the claims of justice were satisfied by inflicting a double portion on some little, tough, wrong-headed, broad-skirted Dutch urchin, who sulked and swelled and grew dogged and sullen beneath the birch. All this he called "doing his duty by their parents;" and he never inflicted a chastisement without following it by the assurance, so consolatory to the smarting urchin, that "he would remember it, and thank him for it the longest day he had to live.""
[Lengthy quote considered for context] | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 4:05:19 AM | | Thank you, and now I do believe the Bible has be misquoted many times. But that is common. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 4:10:35 AM | Personally, I am not against "spanking", but I would be loath to actually use a rod or a switch. It brings to mind the origin of the term "rule of thumb" which was once the custom where a man was permitted by law to beat his wife with a switch so long as it was no thicker than his thumb.
Still, there are times when all other forms of discipline simply do not work. Children are not tiny adults. There is significant scientific research that suggests their brains do not fully develop until well into their 20's. And yet we treat them like adults, expecting them to make adult-like decisions when they are far younger, and in many cases not adequately prepared to do so. We talk to them like adults and ask them to reason like adults, but in truth, they simply do not have all the faculties to be able to do so.
In general, Dr. Spock, perhaps the most respected pediatrician of the 20th century, was against spanking as a form of discipline. In his comments, he quotes part of the American Academy of Pediatricians official policy, which reads:
"Despite its common acceptance, spanking is a less effective strategy than timeout or removal of privileges for reducing undesired behavior in children. Although spanking may immediately reduce or stop an undesired behavior, its effectiveness decreases with subsequent use. The only way to maintain the initial effect of spanking is to systematically increase the intensity with which it is delivered, which can quickly escalate into abuse. Thus, at best, spanking is only effective when used in selective infrequent situations."
Dr. Spock goes on to say:
Certainly, many perfectly healthy, well-adjusted people were spanked as children. It also seems clear that many children who are never spanked grow up fine as well. The research does not show a huge effect of spanking by itself.
The much more important issues are whether discipline is effective and whether the parent-child relationship is a healthy one. That said, we would agree with the Academy of Pediatrics in advising against spanking for several reasons:
However, given all that, one of Dr. Spock's primary achievements in his lifetime was the empowerment of parents.
Spock's ideas have become such a part and parcel of the parenting landscape that it's easy to forget how revolutionary they were. In post-war America, parents were in awe of doctors and other childcare professionals; Spock assured them that parents were the true experts on their own children. They had been told that picking up infants when they cried would only spoil them; Spock countered that cuddling babies and bestowing affection on children would only make them happier and more secure. Instead of adhering to strict, one-size-fits-all dictates on everything from discipline to toilet training, Spock urged parents to be flexible and see their children as individuals.
Herein, I feel, lies the key to discipline and every other aspect of parenting: "each parent is the true expert on their own children".
So long as the question of abuse does not enter into the situation, the parents ... not the state, not other parents, not busybody do-gooder know-it-alls … just the parents need to be the ones who determine the best process to use when raising their child. In fact, I would contend that parents who are drunk or stoned all the time or are absent from their children's lives do far greater damage to their children than what might befall them from an occasionally unwisely administered spanking. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 4:19:15 AM |
Thank you, and now I do believe the Bible has be misquoted many times. But that is common.
As great as the Bible is, and I really do enjoy reading it, there are a lot of easily misunderstood phrases and passages and many wildly inaccurate claims upon what it says. Even when the words are quoted verbatim, they are often done so in error.
For example: "Money is the root of all evil" -- 1 Timothy 6:10, which is often used to imply that there is something wrong with money itself, or that people who have money are evil by association.
Yet the actual words of the Bible are: "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." -- Timothy 6:10 (full verse). Here it becomes obvious that it is not the money per se that is "evil" but rather the LOVE of money that leads to the ruin of the covetous. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 7:03:26 AM | I have been catching up on the posts since my last contribution,..and I jusy don't get it,...or moreover I can't believe how many here still don't get it,...
the use of physical violence against a child,....is NEVER the only or even best option,...
it shows a lack of controll and options and ultimately simply who is stronger,...
and as been suggested that it should only be implemented by a parent,...someone who loves the child,...this particular train of thought gives me the shivers,..
Do you know how many people have been abused in the name of love,...
and I know someof you will say that a quick smack,..or one strike is not so bad and certainly not abuse,...I have to disagree,....it may only be one hit,..but it is a way of showing you (the parent) can not be trusted,...
when a parent insist the child come to them and is rewarded by being hit,..you have destroyed a trust,...and with every consequent hit over days,..months years each time errodes that trust even more,...and eventually there is none,...
one person claiming that her being whooped (wich is basically beaten) didn't affect her or her brother whom she remembers being beaten every single day,....
every single day???? I wonder what her brother learned,...
I have an idea though,...
how about a beating on existing welts hurts even more,...
how about mom's arm is getting stronger,...
how about I am counting the days and then I am out of here,...
but he certainly didn't get the idea that mom loved him
and child being abused comes with one parting gift befor they leave the nest,....a huge risk of becoming,....either an abuser like dear ol mom,...or being in a reletionship where the boundaries are defines by what he learned growing up,...
and if you think survival can be defined by anyone age 20 because they are now on their own,...many won't know until their own children are grown and they can look back at what they did and how they did it,...then the why,...just sort of jumps out at you,...
It hasn't been that long since physical violence has been banned from schools,...
and to those that think one smack isn't abuse,...
if the best teaching tool we have is our hands,.... open,... closed,... holding something or not,...then we need to go back to school and learn a little more,...
as for Dr Spock,...the child less expert on raising children,...
maybe sometimes the view of the forrest is better some distance from the trees,....
I have taught my children how to parent,...by them seeing me train our dogs,...(don't laugh but it's true)
when a dog has done something wrong and a human tells it to come and it is rewarded by a smack,...the dog being clever, quickly figures out coming = getting smacked when combined by that tone of voice,...
I remember my son being really ticked because he was call ing the dog after discovering an accident in the house and he was furrious because the dog wouldn't come to him,...he was in fact sitting behind me,...When my son angrily said it's because you are too good to them,..I asked him to think about the situation we were in at that moment,...
I asked him why the dog should respond to him knowing what this would mean,...
My son said because I am telling him to and I am his master,....
His master,...yup that's what he thought,...
then I asked him if he thought the dog knew why he was yelling at him to come? did he know he had done something wrong? yes,...and yes,...
So I had him call the dog from me to come to him still using his angry voice but prommising me he wouldn't touch the dog,....reluctantly and it took a while the dog went,...I told him to get down to the dogs level and basically vent,...but not touch,...which he did,....the dog now tits up a shaking,...I told him to take the dog sit him up and tell him you a are being bad,...and then to hug him,....to which the dog reacted as expected,...with relief first then with a wagging tail and kissess,.....
I asked my son if he thought the dog knew he was angry and why?,......yes
The next time the dog did something wrong,...(not the same thing mind you because he never did that again),....and my son yelled at him,...the dog came to him slinking down in front of him but he did come,...
and my son did not hit,....
OK then,....mission accomplished the trust between the two is intact,..the dog learned, and so did the boy,....violence breeds more violence and fear,...not respect,...
there is ALWAYS A BETTER OPTION THAN HITTING,... | |
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chinua
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Joined: 9/30/2005
Msg: 57 | |
| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 9:35:40 AM | | so kids should be treated like dogs???should we put them on leashes too? whatever..........this is another hitting your head against a wall thread.........some people who think they know everything accusing people who might have smacked their kids diaper padded butt once or twice.....of being the same as a person who beat their kids into submission.........and don't listen to the adults that were spanked...not beaten...........oh yeah thats the same thing.....even though i say i'm not a violent person YOU won't believe me......i must be lying.......must be nice to be so perfect | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 9:46:57 AM | many children could do worse I'm sad to say,...
you can discount the point by a simple minded comeback like that and there are varrying degrees and levels to everything including crimes and punishment,....
and all of us at times have if we live long enough made the mistakes that are followed with the understanding of them,... hindsight is 20/20 after all,....
that's why some people like to share what they have learned along the way and why other balk at it since they have as yet not,....
no one needs to be called a lyer,....or a know-it-all,...to have their particular point of view validated but in discussions,....I have found
a strong offense rarely is better than a well thought out rational response,....
so since I have no way of determining anuone's truth but my own,....
I would never presume on behalf of anyone else,.... | |
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chinua
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Joined: 9/30/2005
Msg: 59 | |
| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 10:23:58 AM | | sorry......i was saying that I was a liar.......because no one who's against spanking seems to believe that someone who was; is just fine. I have done so-called rational responses.......and got ignored- or;saw another 'if you spank your kids you are abusive ' type threads. so, i got upset. I have actually met teens who think that their parents don't care about them , because they had no discipline!!! | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 11:47:11 AM | It's all about what makes the child respond. As I've read this, I read into it that some children think they can get away with throwing plates of food, etc... Children get frustrated when they don't understand rules as well as parents who have a hard time explaining things to children who won't listen.
We've all seen wild children who need to be corrected (or medicated). I believe that a small portion of them were born with something missing upstairs that partains to behavior.
The average child does seem to respond with priviledges removed or made to sit in the corner facing the wall.
If proper dicipline doesn't start early, with a louder voice, tap on the table nearby the child, or "the Look" - as my son calls it; you loose the child's understanding of who the parent is.
Most children just want to know what the rules are and want consistency in reinforcement.
I also must note here that parents have sometimes odd expectations of their children. Kids have short attention spans. A lovely dinner out could become a nightmare if the children are expected to sit quietly for two hours. It's smart to take a noise-less toy or book for the child; keep them in the conversation; discuss the art on the walls, reward their good behavior.
I like the idea of complimenting other peoples children when they behave. It reminds the parent that they should do some rewarding. We do forget. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 11:53:47 AM | but then again there is discipline and dicipline,....
It has been my experience that availability,..and consistency are the best,....
and with computers, instans messaging,..cell phones etc,...I am never out of reach of them,..not even during my stay in mexico,....so even from there we constantly talked,...he sent me home owrk to check over and so on,....being there is better that the threat of you hanging over them,.... | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 1:22:55 PM | ""Call it what you want, a beating and a spanking are relative...no matter how you look at it."""
Oh for goodness sake, a spank on the bum is not assault. It is not a beating. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 1:40:35 PM | | perception is everything,....and perception depends on point of view,.... | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 1:46:44 PM | | Never really liked verbal beatings.... they seem to never end. IMO | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 6:02:35 PM | Just a few points:
#1 Dr. Spock was not "childless" ... He had two children of his own and studied and treated children as a pediatrician for more than 50 years.
#2 Is it being suggested that Dr. Spock's contention that "parents are the true experts on their own children" is wrong? If so, who do you (by "you" I mean everyone reading this) believe is a better choice to raise your own kids and how do you come up with that opinion?
#3 Equating a "spanking" with any form of abuse trivializes abuse. It suggests that abuse is simply disciplining a child gone a bit too far and anyone might do it. Abuse, as is obvious in some of the tales here, might have been justified as "discipline" but any reasonable person watching it would have seen the difference.
#4 Spanking should not be something that a parent does in anger, nor with any aggressive emotion for that matter. It should never be given as an angry response to something a child has done. If it is, it is highly unlikely that it will be delivered in an effective or consistent manner.
#5 Daily spankings would be extreme. With my own children, between the two of them, in 32 years of life they have received 12 spankings. I was not one to "wrap their fingers", but I often pulled them away from situations where they might have harmed others or themselves or potentially broken something. I do not include "holding" in the term "spanking" but someone else might.
#6 Spanking is not always about "fear". More appropriately it is about rules, limits and consequences. When groundings and timeouts and lost privileges have no effect, when a child is so unruly and violent that no rational communication has any effect, a physical response is required.
#7 Sometimes that response varies. I have used or seen other people use holding, blowing in the face, slapping hands, slapping legs, and swatting butts. I have seen people use implements as well such as a hairbrush, a wooden spoon or a belt. This level is somewhat repugnant to me, but I do not suggest that a parent will never need to escalate to that level at some point. There are just too many variables to be able to make a call like that.
#8 Not all physical contact is abuse. Bumping and pushing in a subway or large queue or even an elevator is not assault. Neither is being tackled in a football game, or being slammed into the boards during hockey. Police have the right and ability to use physical force in apprehending a criminal, even to the point of killing such criminals (in extreme cases).
#9 Laws exist today to condemn those who would abuse children, and yet, they are rarely enforced, primarily due to the fact that abused children rarely come forward with information about their abuse. An "anti-spanking" law would effectively turn millions of good parents into instant criminals.
#10 What is the alternative? If a parent is emasculated by the law, what is available to the parent when the situation arises that the only response the parent could use is a spanking, but that is now gone? Will there be a number the parent can call? Will we also create a government agency that will come in with significant resources to manage the child? With a type of "police" that is educated in the appropriate use of force and has the right to apply it when necessary?
#11 Someone said that they "abuse a little white ball" rather than take out their anger on their children. Bravo. My ex-wife was like that, too. I had to physically stop her on more than one occasion from striking one of our children with a closed fist. She had been abused as a child and she could not differentiate her anger from her response. It was therefore my job early on to be the one who disciplined the children. I believe I was always fair in doing so, and I know anger was never involved.
#12 Anger has nothing to do with "spankings". Spankings are a form of discipline the same as timeouts etc. are. None of these things should be administered in anger. I once took a privilege away from my daughter for a year. It was an escalated consequence of bad practices. It started with her losing it for a day then a week, then a month, then finally, when she still refused to demonstrate her maturity, a year. Each time I told her: "next time you do something like that, it will be a week/month/year". She knew from the start what the penalty would be. And there was no anger in meeting out the sentence. Do you think Judges are expressing anger when they sentence someone to 200 years in jail?
::Start Rant::
If the world could be completely rid of spankings, I would be overjoyed. But personally, I do not see that happening because the government makes a bunch of ill-conceived reactionary laws. Look at anti-gun laws. In many countries, guns are prohibited, but people are still shot every day. The reason: criminals don't care about the law. All a law can do is punish after the fact. If there were programs available to teach people how to effectively discipline their children WITHOUT spanking, I would be all for it. Make it mandatory education in high school. Require first time parents to attend life-skills training. But who is going to pay for it? Who is going to run it? Who is going to say what works best in all cases? Who is going to be there for the mother of a child that she cannot control? Who is going to see that parents receive counseling to deal with their own childhood issues?
I wonder if proponents of Anti-spanking laws are not reacting to their own emotional issues? In the swatting of a child's backside they see their own excessive abuse as a child and are now overly sensitive to the situation. Perhaps, perhaps not. I received spankings as a child, but I do not feel I was abused. My ex never received "spankings". Instead, she was raped and tortured. Her abusers are now dead, so she can talk about it (sort of). The law was there to protect her as a child, but it did nothing.
Until the laws we ALREADY have are effective against child abuse, I see no point in making new ones, especially ones that only vilify decent, caring parents and offer no reasonable solutions.
::End Rant:: | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 7:10:44 PM | Physical abuse is not the only form of abuse. Mental abuse is done just by talking. Do we now decide how a parent can talk to their child to prevent mental abuse. That would make law enforcement very tricky. What do you do when a parent has a very low I.Q., judge what they do by your I.Q. standards or by theirs.
Abuse to me, 'IMO', is the over doing of disipline which creates damage to a child, whether that be physical or verbal. If I, as a child had to listen to someone that I didn't understand,(an over intelligent person) I may find that so confusing that my self-esteem went down, opps abuse. It is so difficult to judge with out walking a mile in the parents shoes. Who are we to judge, if we feel a need to call in intervention, call by all means. But don't judge, call and let the system try to decide the correct solution. There is no perfection no matter how much we talk, and talk and talk, no two people do things the same even if they try to. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 7:22:04 PM | interesting points,..and thank you for correcting me,...regarding Dr Spock,...
but let me just present to you this,...and you be the judges,...
last week on a program called the nanny or supernanny or something,....
the couple who had the nanny in for observations had differeing views on,...discipline,...
the dad was insisting all of his methonds are correct and he believed in spanking his kids,...
At one point one of the kids, was hitting one of the other kids,...and dad went to spank them,...the nanny stopped him and asked him what exactly is this going to teach your children,....that you are stronger????
and how on earth are they supposed to learn that hitting is wrong,...by you hitting them?
are you not sending them a mixed message,...
He thought about it,..and then walked away,....when he came back he asked her what would be better and ,..... when he followed her suggestion,...whilst him mumbling under his breath that she was full of it,... and wrong,...her suggestion to his shock worked,...
so what are you teaching????,...and what are your children learning????,... | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:04:03 PM | The first point I would make is that a skilled, highly trained professional was present who was able to examine all the factors, and give a non-spanking based solution. Excellent. I wish we all had that luxury.
Second, it does not seem to be a situation that could not have been controlled through another means, such as holding. There is no mention of escallation. No mention of expressing to the child that the behaviour was inappropiate and if it continued consequences would be issued (timeout through to spankings). Of course, these kids could have been told the rules hundreds of times before, so maybe they all knew, and any escallation might have already happened off-camera.
Third, it does not sound like the kid was in an incontrolable state. If police could walk up to a knife wielding man and say "okay, put the knife down and come with us" and that was all they needed to do, there would be no reason for physical force in those situations either.
I agree with you that sometimes people "spank" too soon. For myself, it is a very rare consequence to a series of ineffective alternatives. I never use spankings where removing privileges are enough, and I never ground when a timeout is enough. And even the spankings themselves are sometimes nothing more then a symbolic gesture to make the point. At least two spankings (of 12) involved no "hitting" at all.
I have said before that I am in favour of teaching alternatives to spanking. To educating adults when such forms of discipline are appropriate, and for many parents, they might never be required. But this thread is debating the validity of "anti-spanking laws", and while I think there should be responsibility in any form of discipline (yelling for example may be far more harmful than spanking in some cases), I do not feel the advent of a law will achieve anything constructive.
And no worries on Dr. Spock ... I had heard that he did not have kids, too. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:06:03 PM | The first point I would make is that a skilled, highly trained professional was present who was able to examine all the factors, and give a non-spanking based solution. Excellent. I wish we all had that luxury.
Second, it does not seem to be a situation that could not have been controlled through another means, such as holding. There is no mention of escalation. No mention of expressing to the child that the behavior was inappropriate and if it continued consequences would be issued (timeout through to spankings). Of course, these kids could have been told the rules hundreds of times before, so maybe they all knew, and any escalation might have already happened off-camera.
Third, it does not sound like the kid was in an uncontrollable state. If police could walk up to a knife wielding man and say "okay, put the knife down and come with us" and that was all they needed to do, there would be no reason for physical force in those situations either.
I agree with you that sometimes people "spank" too soon. For myself, it is a very rare consequence to a series of ineffective alternatives. I never use spankings where removing privileges are enough, and I never ground when a timeout is enough. And even the spankings themselves are sometimes nothing more then a symbolic gesture to make the point. At least two spankings (of 12) involved no "hitting" at all.
I have said before that I am in favor of teaching alternatives to spanking. To educating adults when such forms of discipline are appropriate, and for many parents, they might never be required. But this thread is debating the validity of "anti-spanking laws", and while I think there should be responsibility in any form of discipline (yelling for example may be far more harmful than spanking in some cases), I do not feel the advent of a law will achieve anything constructive.
And no worries on Dr. Spock ... I had heard that he did not have kids, too. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:13:15 PM |
Oh for goodness sake, a spank on the bum is not assault. It is not a beating ok for argument sake...if you are willing to answer truthfully if someone grabbed you say maybe a boyfriend or spouse put you across their knee and spanked you because they were'nt please with something you did(assuming that you don't like that sort of thing..lol)would you feel like you were assaulted? | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:14:33 PM | I always taught my child not to believe what they see on tv. over what they see in the real world. The old tv show 'the nanny' was a sitcom and had a script. I would never teach my child to live life according to sitcom writers. I wanted them to live in the real world.
I do not know the correct name of the show you are speaking of but even the news is known to be slanted (politics) and biased. To raise children according to tv programs sounds like raising them in a make believe world.
I never noticed anyone talking about a spank of a child as having the child put over their knee. I never put my child over my knee and feel no one should say I have just because I spanked maybe twice. Never, ever have I put a child over my knee to spank. I just gave a spank why is that so hard to stop there, no one should state that I may have done more that is just jumping to conculsion. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:38:46 PM | | I was'nt talking to you little lady...i was talking to the poster i quoted you should'nt assume everything is about you | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:46:59 PM | "The Nanny" was a sitcom staring Fran Drescher (sp?).
I believe "Nanny 911" is the name of a reality TV show depicting Nannies in real-life situations.
Also ... apologies for the double post ... I must have pushed the wrong button.
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 8:48:44 PM | | My appologies. I guess the chain of postings seemed more individual so I jumped to that conclusion. My error. | |
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| anti- spanking laws
Posted: 12/26/2005 9:00:16 PM | | Chucky my ex use to do that and let me tell ya i was furious every dang time..no I didn't feel assaulted but it was humiliating .. he could over power me and I didn't like that part of it..pissed me off and let me tell ya when he let go I came up arms flyin lol..you think that would of stopped him..lol | |
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