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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/3/2008 5:49:11 PM |
I personally think that things are continuing to change even more for the worse. We are on a long downhill slide.
Good post Ski, would have emailed you but I'm too old to do that, lol. Funny, I look at the same information you do and my conclusion is that we are making another evolution and things will balance out a bit. I think we're on the verge of improving.
Why? Because enough things are breaking down that the only rational conclusion is Things Are Not Working. This little social engineering experiment (funny, you and I describe it in the same way.... every time I read you it startles me... "this man is speaking my words" LOL) has ridden out far enough and long enough that we're getting good results in. And they aren't so pretty. One of the results has been the so-called "strong women" other results are education as you mentioned and men are beginning to be vocal... marriage strikes and the like, including whining. Bottom line... relationships aren't working, children aren't thriving and the first generation of this social engineering experiment, Gen Y, has HR departments alternatively shaking in their boots and taking anger management courses.
Women have been 'allowed' to change their social roles and do whatever they like (regardless of whether some will admit it or not). Men, on the other hand, are still simply expected to 'suck it up' , 'be a man', or whatever other tired implication that you're lacking in masculinity they feel like throwing at you, and simply accept it whatever is thrown at them. Don't like it? Be a man. Want to fight it? You must be a threatened little boy.
True Wonka (and thanks). This is a big part of why I think a good change is coming. Men are sufficiently frustrated to break out of the trap of "being a man" by "sucking it up". I posit that as long as men were toeing the line there was no real pressure to change further. Now we have a wide variety of their voices wading in ... from anger to whining to sorrowful to thoughtful... all of it begins to build pressure and change comes from pressure.
There are glimpses, even on the threads here, of people beginning to say "this isn't working" and beginning to take steps towards "how can we make this work?"
Yeah, maybe not within my lifetime... generational change is a bit faster than glaciers, but not by much, lol. But I think we're beginning to move in the right direction. Even so, fasten your seat belts, we're in for a bumpy ride. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/3/2008 6:42:35 PM | well no doubt its too late for our generation. The question will be, in about 20 years ago when there is this huge population of single old people, what will the 20 somethings of that generation think about it? By then, I'm not sure they won't already be so screwed up as to do nothing but continue on their own selfish path. I hope for their sakes that I'm wrong, but really I'm more concerned right now about how to make the best of the current situation for myself.
The fundamental problem, in my view, is that humanity has turned its back on the traditions and wisdom of our ancestors. As such, I personally think we are a lost cause. I don't know how it will all go down, nobody does, but in all likelihood, we are doing down. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/3/2008 7:21:03 PM | Thank you wonka....nice to see ya...
I don't know borntoski...I'm with margo...my cyber and "real" life friends talk about this stuff all the time..and the consensus among thoughtful, and knowledge seeking people, which my friends are, why I'm drawn to them..is that it isn't working and it needs to change. Yeah, like margo says it won't happen in a flash , things didn't get this way in a flash.
However, if enough people feel this way, and are in a position to lead..especially to the younger generation, progress can be made. I often hope that some of the many people who read the forum,s but don't post, are often the younger generations, and we only need to make an impression on a few to get the ball rolling.
I know with my nieces and nephews I am very clear about where I stand and why I think things have gotten out of control. I can only hope that even if they don't agree now, like I did when I got older, they will see the sense of it over time. I insist on believing there are more inherently good people than bad in the world.
As for personally....I know enough men who see eye to eye with me on these issues, that I don't think it's going to affect me personally. I know enough people ( of both genders) who feel that way. I don't think you should give up yet. lol...the fact that enough of us on here, and we are a small minority of the population , see the writing on the wall...gives me hope. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:58:15 PM |
(Rock Hunter)What's next: "you have a small penis"?
Spot on, mate! That post (1420) was hilarious.
"avoid the loud, boisterous (people), as they are a vexation to the spirit." This I get. It's genderless. And it's not strength either. But, at times,it become a harder balance for women. Perhaps, although the adjustments men have made haven't come easy, either. I guess it boils down to individuals and their own abilities to see objectively.
When I started in construction management, I unfortunately DID have more to prove. Guys had bets left and right how long Id last in the field. And it's hard to resist the temptation to be more... brassy... to fit in. I have a 16 yr old daughter who isn't afraid to get out and do something in the construction field. Her interest in architecture may or may not pan out, but she's at least considered that, in two yrs, she'd rather have learned a great deal about a trade, earning substancially more with her time, than if she were to hire on at the grocery/retail stores, as most of her friends have. In two years, she could feasibly be contracting her own work, and hiring laborers to cover with heavier items. She's not afraid to work with safe tools, and takes a lot of interest in the process of building, as well as architecture. I catch guys clocking her constantly, but she holds her own, goes about her business, and they eventually notice her abilities, rather than her appearance. SO, yeah, I know a woman, getting to that level of equal, in what would typically be strictly a MANS WORLD, yeah, I can see that being a daunting task. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:49:47 PM | My experience on POF has been a yoyo ride, to say the least. However, I am finding out that men don't date what they created. Case in point, I was in the Navy and the only female in my electronics class with a boyfriend that did not understand OMH's law. I tried helping him; however, he refused and failed. During my career, I had to fight (not physically) to get the rank and respect that I earned. So I say, for some women to make it in this world, we have to be strong b/c the males have created that environment.  | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:02:13 PM | I can understand the whole thing about the man feeling needed. but this...."so called strong willed independent women have forgotten what it is like to have fun, be romantic, be romanced" .....is BS!
You cannot put all independent woman in the same catigory any more then you can bald people. Wouldn't you rather date a woman that hold her own and pay her own bills then someone using you because you can screw in a light bulb better? You clearly have chosen the wrong woman.
Good luck to you.  | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/4/2008 12:20:19 AM | | ^^^^^Haven't you read this thread? Men love strong independent women. Men don't like "so-called strong, independent women". To see the difference, just read men's definitions of a really strong, independent woman. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:14:08 AM | | oh bullshit. men fall for women who don't give a crap what they think, and are good in bed. men also fall for women who they think are a challenge. this is usually stupid because if she's a challenge she probably doesn't like you, and doesn't want to sleep with you. If she's really strong (as if strongly feminine rather than strong in the masculine sense) she will know right away that she wants you and make it clear and if you whine at her about how she doesn't listen to your opinions (which are probably vapid and boring and manipulative) you'll blow it and she'll be down the road to seek a man who knows where his testicles reside. cheers - sue | |
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| cool, but.....
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:17:25 AM | | there's this other thing. abusive women are full of shit and sling it at everyone particularly boyfriends, but......and here's the kicker....if the boyfriend takes it, he does not reside in the winner's circle but rather on loser's row and has no one to blame but himself, in the end. assertive women on the other hand are better at manipulation and usually better in bed, so you WANT to believe that she's not a **** so you don't feel like a handbag. - cheers - sue | |
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| cool, but.....
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:33:50 AM | I wouldn't say that they are better in bed.
I like women that are feminine.
I am not intimidated by women, but it is my preference. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/4/2008 4:49:21 AM |
(4s) Yes. There's no doubt that my first few months were rougher than they should have been- ...
*shrug* You ran into the phenomenon of the FNG - the F*cken New Guy. Everybody experiences it. It's no biggie, and most people relegate it to part of entering a new field.
No matter WHAT you do, there's ALWAYS a time when you're the FNG in an organization/company for a while. Them's just the breaks.
But I knew when I chose what I was doing that I going to a world where change comes slow. And over time, some of the guys who were most.... resistant... became people that I built the most mutual trust and respect with. I even got invited to join a union's apprenticeship committee. High praise, indeed, in my mind. It just takes time, and being yourself. And to accept that you cant be all things, to all people, no matter what you do. So dont let it bother you.
Awesome.
Arlo | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/4/2008 1:06:30 PM |
Wouldn't you rather date a woman that hold her own and pay her own bills then someone using you because you can screw in a light bulb better?
How about let's start with a woman being able to 'hold her own and pay her own bills' has absolutely NOTHING to do with being strong. It means she's an average responsible adult who may or may not be independent. Nothing more, nothing special.
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/4/2008 1:55:06 PM | | if a man has a strong women as you describe he should be thankful be cause he can be what he wants to be with out the dead weight of an anchor on him . i,ll take all of the women that is makeing there own way , any day | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:50:58 PM | Cynical. Can anyone say the words?
oh bullshit. men fall for women who don't give a crap what they think, and are good in bed. men also fall for women who they think are a challenge. this is usually stupid because if she's a challenge she probably doesn't like you, and doesn't want to sleep with you. If she's really strong (as if strongly feminine rather than strong in the masculine sense) she will know right away that she wants you and make it clear and if you whine at her about how she doesn't listen to your opinions (which are probably vapid and boring and manipulative) you'll blow it and she'll be down the road to seek a man who knows where his testicles reside. cheers - sue Problem solved. How poetic.
So, let's get this straight; most strong women, as you say, find most mens diatribes vapid and boring. Ahh yes, and manipulative, too. So, the challenge becomes speaking to 'those strong women" without actually voicing any opinion. Rather, just agree with everything she says and all will be well. Hmmm. Ok, check. Men fall for women who care not what they think. HMMM..... well, I think the point is duly noted, however, seldom do men stick around for any length of time under those circumstances. I'm sure those guys exist, but few lack the self-esteem to not walk away from a woman who gets high on her own breath.
The interesting comparison made, regarding a challenging woman, is that most men do need to be challenged, not chided, and women can be challenging without acting like they've got balls and rods the size of a cannon. It's those outspoken, brassy mouths that turns guys away. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/5/2008 5:17:55 AM |
How about let's start with a woman being able to 'hold her own and pay her own bills' has absolutely NOTHING to do with being strong
You can blame media, society, radical feminists..whatever you like..for that belief, because it's the subtle and sometimes not so subtle message I have been getting since I was a teenager..and you can bet it often comes from MEN too...there are even quite a few on here who think the same. I think it should be noted that somewhere along the line it was taught that we should be this way to be "equal". And some of us have bought it, or been pressured to..
It gets confusing ..the who should buy drinks threads insists women should share in financial things, and be just like men...this thread says we should stop acting like men..I wish someone wold make up their mind..lol...I know what I personally think..but, the conflicting messages get frustrating... can you guys tell us how we are supposed to balance the 'equal" thing ourselves? The problem being, some behaviors we have had to adopt are traditionally masculine..I really don;t want to give up my feminity either, but, as on the other thread, many men think we should do that too. ..things aint easy for anyone these days...sigh.. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:11:18 AM | | I agree, I find it difficult these days to balance my independence and strength with my femininity and passion and compassion. Guess it all boils down to what it always has, if I meet the right man than my personality and appearance will intrigue him, he will appreciate who I am, and find the entire package to be quite appealing. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:35:06 AM | Good point, Zangie.
Women are taught to show their equality, by virtue of investing in homes, having good careers, buying cars, paying their own bills, and so forth. In the dating world, however, many, and I do say many, not all, but many women...often conveniently leave the dating ritual of paying for dates....squarely on the mans shoulders. Just recently a woman of 51, executive recruiter, no doubt... who contacted me.....had in her profile, under perfect date.... that "a guy had ought to buy her dinner. If he couldn't afford dinner, he couldn't afford her." See, this is what men still see in regards to dating, even someone 5 yrs my senior, who probably equals or does better than me, financially, she's still squawking about how men had better have some deep pockets if he's even going to be allowed to be graced with her presence. My retort was that she might consider getting to know a man for his presence, his attitudes, and his ability to care for others, rather than if he can spring for dinner, as it appeared the only principal she cared about was who was picking up her tab. She is otherwise an independant woman, free of needing any mans assistance to pay her way in other terms, but still stuck in some antiquated mindset of a bygone dating era.
I'll be honest, I have a hard time allowing women to pay unless I'm certain they're somewhere near my equal, financially. There are younger women I know, and if the opportunity came about to go out, I would insist on paying, mainly because I see them as less fortunate at that particular time. So, I'm not so sure it's so much a matter of money as it is, for some women, the obligatory status that she isn't going to reach for her wallet, nay, is fully prepared to insist that a guy pay for her way, regardless of how much she actually earns.
Those are the fishies we try and avoid. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:41:20 AM | I think it should be noted that somewhere along the line it was taught that we should be this way to be "equal". And some of us have bought it, or been pressured to..
"Who" taught you that? "Who" pressured you to be that way?
this thread says we should stop acting like men..I wish someone wold make up their mind..lol.
Perhaps a clarification is in order. When we say "stop acting as men", we mean "stop acting as BAD men". Like in, stop having a potty mouth. Stop binge-drinking. Stop bed-hopping. Stop picking up fights. Stop trying to out-penis us.
And specially, stop competing with us (NO, I don't mean "let us win"). Men compete with men. Men don't compete with women. If you compete with us, you become a man to our eyes. And men don't marry men. At least, not hetero men.
One of the things I noticed about all this "being equal to men", is that almost all the male traits women picked up were "bad" traits. Good male traits - stoicism, camaraderie, honor- were ignored.
The problem being, some behaviors we have had to adopt are traditionally masculine...
Can you be more clear? What behaviors are you talking about, exactly? | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/5/2008 8:33:00 AM |
You can blame media, society, radical feminists..whatever you like..for that belief, because it's the subtle and sometimes not so subtle message I have been getting since I was a teenager..and you can bet it often comes from MEN too...
Sorry, zangie... I'm not quite sure what message it is you are referring to. That women have to be 'strong' to be able to pay their own bills? If so, that's pretty interesting to me since I've never heard it, seen it. Maybe I just never paid attention to that message because I believed women wanted to be equal, so be equal, don't just talk about being equal.
I, and most of the women I've ever met, were brought up to DO something to make a living. Granted, not nearly as many women chose great paying careers when compared with the men 30 years ago, but they still worked.
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:08:27 AM | You know what's weird? I always looked at the word "strong" as "able to deal with anything"...planning to be the best but preparing for the worst....not whining or complaining about what life owes them...
As in - that person lost everything in Katrina and didn't kill themselves, rebuilt their lives, started over....that's "strong" to me. That person lost his family in 9/11...and actually found a reason to go on and live. That was never a gender specific word to me till I read it here.
I guess I would consider myself strong as a person because I don't tend to fall apart when crap happens to me, but I think it's just a personality thing. I find falling apart to be virtually useless and non productive. I'd go around telling people I thought I was strong (or anything else that isn't my place to label myself), but I know no one cares (hell even I don't care even - it just is what it is). Am I a loner to a fault? Yes, I can be. But men have nothing to do with that...and people learn I handle my own business consistently by knowing me. No description needed. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:11:50 AM |
As in - that person lost everything in Katrina and didn't kill themselves, rebuilt their lives, started over....that's "strong" to me. That person lost his family in 9/11...and actually found a reason to go on and live. That was never a gender specific word to me till I read it here.
I think YOUR definition is one that would be shared, I'm pretty sure, by EVERY guy out there. And, I agree that this sort of strength is NOT gender specific.
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oshan
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Joined: 5/11/2008
Msg: 1449 | |
| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:13:37 AM | Yeah, calgaryboi, the problem with "Relax a little...have some fun, let a man romance you...", is that very often when a woman does this, and 'allows' herself to be swept away by the man that she has decided to trust and open up to, the man will take this as license for him to a) start criticizing her, b) ignore her, c) abandon her, d) smother her, e) play games with her emotions, as in not doing what he says he will do, or saying one thing one day and denying he said it the next, or taking sides with anyone but her on an issue, or making unreasonable demands, or refusing to discuss important issues, or gawking at other women in public when he's with her or.....and the list goes on. I'm sure that there are lots of women on this site who could add to that list.
What all of this boils down to is trust, and the law of attraction. If you have read the book "The Secret", you will understand the concept of attracting someone who is like ourselves. With this in mind, we have to make sure that we are trustworthy and real, and that we know ourselves and what we want in a partner. Lots of women know what they want and are capable of giving the same, and they are being cautious to make sure that what they have attracted is what they really want. I believe that we will attract many types of people from the opposite gender, and it is up to us to choose the right one for us.
Romance is nice, and I'm sure that the majority of women would love nothing more than to "relax and have some fun...", but if they are "strong, intelligent and independent, they also want to know that the person they entrust their heart to has the character qualities it takes for building a lifetime of fun and romance. You know, to offer a woman the "fun and romance" for a day or a week or a month, when this woman is looking for a long term relationship, and expect her to relax into it, you are setting yourself up for disappointment because most women are too smart for that. They don't want just the dessert...they want the whole meal. In other words, don't expect a woman to "...relax a little...have some fun, and let a man romance (her)..." if that woman is looking for a long term relationship. That woman will be looking and assessing to determine character qualities, and will only relax and let her guard down when she has determined to the best of her ability that the man who is so eager to romance her actually has the character qualities such as patient, dependability, consistency, loyalty, dignity, respect, kindness, compassion and many more...that she is looking for in a man. This type of woman will take her time.
If you are put off by this, then perhaps you need to have a nice long look inside yourself and determine where you might not be measuring up to what a woman wants and needs.
Personally, I think your statement "Relax a little...have some fun, let a man romance you..." is very off putting and lacks depth of understanding, but thanks for the post because I like the opportunity to express my views in this area....and hey, relax, Rome wasn't built in a day! | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:24:52 AM | | Why? ... because they know that we can spot a fake after spending little time with them ... and if they do decide to actually set up a date, they'll cancel at the last minute ... yep -- happens every time .... | |
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