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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:57:25 AM | Let's restate hjss's post in more straightforward language:
Really thought we (men & women) were on this site for the same reason ... to meet others & see if the possibility of connecting & then seeing where it can go ... but not so sure that's the case with most of the guys ... no offence meant here but either you want to meet or you don't -- we (the women) are not your ex's & you are not ours ... some of us actually would like to meet you just because of what you say in your profile ... so far, I'm finding men say one thing but in actuality totally mean something else ... I'm a strong woman because of what I've had to go through in my life & unless you've had to walk in my shoes, don't discard me just because you THINK you know what I'd be like ... I go by how a man treats a woman -- & that starts from the first Hello on this site ... you really do miss out ...
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Hello. Come to attention, class. I have been elected to speak for all women. I am addressing you men not as persons but as a class of things, because you males are not individuals, just objects in a category.
After meeting several guys who seemed to be looking for their ex-wives, I assume all men are like that. Of course we women are never like that, we don't look for our daddies and want a big strong male who will always be around to protect us and pay for our meals.
All us women write profiles that are honest and revealing, but all you men say one thing but in actuality totally mean something else. And all us females at PoF post photos.
I'm a bruised woman because of what I've had to go through in my life, sob. I call that "strong" but of course nobody but me ever had to endure hardships. Walking in my shoes has been so hard while everybody else finds life a smooth path bordered with violets and roses and gets life's goodies handed to them on a platter.
I am grading you men and I go by how a man treats a woman and of course that's fine but if a man goes by how I treat him then he's a sexist pig taking advantage of the female.
It's O.K. for me to be an inspector grading you men because I'm female, but you men are supposed to appreciate me as a human being, not an object to be tested and evaluated. My job as a woman is to measure you men against my standards, using the rule book I got from my mom, and see if you are worthy of my Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.
And if you don't see what a charming desirable woman I am, then you really do miss out. I do not think it's me who is missing out, because I am a prize for you men to win in a contest, the treasure waiting for you to discover, and if you relate to me it is for you to find what I am, not for both of us to take pleasure in being together and learning about each other side by side as equals. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 9:37:26 AM | Capitano, it was everywhere. I remember very clearly as a child noticing that men had positions and power and women did not. (My daughter had a similar but less powerful epiphany when she looked up and realized all the professional sports players were men... at about five she said well, I guess I have to take up golf or tennis). Although my mother worked, most women were “only” housewives or had non-powerful positions in business. When we cleared the table after holiday meals, the men sat there and had wildly interesting conversations about politics and business and current events, while women cleaned up in the kitchen and had boring and trifling conversations about gossip and family. Those were my judgments, the women enjoyed the conversations they were having… I was interested in the “male” conversation and found the “female” conversation dried out my eyeballs.
At any rate, I found it HUGELY unfair that, just because I happened to be born female, my future was already thrown out in front of me. The shear UNFAIRNESS of it hit me like a ton of bricks, and is one of the reasons fairness continues to resonate for me so evocatively. (This sensitivity to fairness, interestingly enough, is what now often has me see the male side in many situations). As a young woman I vowed I would sit at the table with the men. I fiercely rejected any of the traditional roles for women, I would not be someone who cooked and cleaned I would definitely NOT be a teacher because that was a "female job"… I would take my place at the table and make my way in business. My father emphasized no one was going to just give you a place at the table; you had to bring something to it to earn your right to be there. That's great because it ensured I didn't become a whiny victim but it did reinforce the struggle and competitiveness aspects.
Now, some women may not have reacted so viscerally to it as I did, but any and every woman around my age would have noticed the disconnect and received the message about woman’s “place”. Being told you are in a box is different than choosing that box. I think many women picked up the message that there was something wrong with them, just because they were born female. Or, once feminism got rolling, there was something wrong with them because they wanted to "just" be a wife and homemaker. How women reacted to that message put their life on a path… some retreated from it, some internalized there was something wrong with them, some didn’t question it, others fought against it.
The battle ground has shifted, yet many are still on that same path, still trying to prove themselves, still resisting anything that sounds like it is making them inferior or trying to shove them back into the box. They are still living under the shadow of that box.
In my own case, I believe I got off the path because I did achieve equality and had nothing left to prove. I earned my place at the table and then found I had other priorities. I discovered my own truth, that I was “enough” exactly as I am and didn’t need to struggle anymore, or fiercely hide my flaws or protect myself from potential attack. Accepting help was just that and had nothing to do with my worth as a human being. I also faced another truth, that my life was in shambles with relationships and it wasn’t the man’s fault, it was my own. The very things that had me prove I did not need a man were the things that were getting in my way to have a real relationship.
I believe, because it was my truth, at the core of most women who are so called “strong” is a secret they are fiercely protecting. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 9:43:32 AM | | *sigh* I guess I will have to wait for reincarnation in a future life to meet Margo. She is clearly a female with not just looks but a MIND and the ability to DECIDE things. I hope there are people out there in her neck of the woods who will see what a classy person she is. Omigod what is the world coming to - an attractive woman who THINKS. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:23:56 AM | ^^lol, yes however itsmargo is saying what many of us on here want to express, but we don't perhaps have the eloquence to do so.
Some people are better at expressing themselves in the written word.
But much like sheep, (and I have been guilty of this too) we only think that those who offer a similar opinion are intelligent. Of course, this is dependant on topic. But itsmargo does come across as intelligent, even if someone did not agree with her. At least that's my opinion, but someone else might think it's dumb :D | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:24:43 AM | Posted By: fifi47 on 7/6/2008 10 07 AM
Subject: Why men don't date strong women...
Message: There are many attractive women who think.
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Oh dear, I guess my sarcasm was missed. OF COURSE there are attractive women who THINK. In fact their ability to think is part of their attractiveness. They are the women I love to meet, don't have time to waste on brainless bimbos. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 10:40:30 AM | Even tho I am a bit younger than Margo...her description of what was felt by a girl growing up in that time was excellent....I clearly remember family gatherings in the 70s exactly like that. Men all smoking cigars and talking in the living room or at the dining room table with the game on before and after dinner; women all in the kitchen serving and setting the table and then cleaning and chirping and gossiping afterwards.
For me the 80s were a bit better, but that same mentality was still there in the background...women were starting to transition into the workplace (or accepted more when seeking careers) but the mindset was still that women would choose a career path UNTIL someone came along they could marry and give it all up for, OR in case that never happened. It wasn't a thing they chose as priority, it was sold more as wise to have it to fall back on.
Men however were always that I can remember groomed to attend school, serve their country if they had more military roots, build a career and then consider a wife and kids once that was all established.
Both men and women were considered "odd" if after a certain amount of time they didn't get married, tho. For men it was more they were being picky about their choice ("oh he'll get married, he's just taking his time") tho, where as women were more thought to be not good marriage material ("what's wrong with her?").
I totally identify with Margo too in the reaction she had to this mindset....I too had the same reaction, but not to prove myself, more I don't understand why certain things are attached to certain genders. I grew up with a single mother and a sister - so there wasn't a visible male present that was part of my childhood outside of my grandfather (died when I was 5) and my dad (showed up when I was about 7 and disappointed me terribly with his actions) causing fear of abandonment, and my sisters dad who beat her a lot, causing fear of a man having any control. My mom dated a lot of men who took advantage of her, and sometimes we as kids became victims of that too.
The difference between Margo and myself may be that she DID have that marriage to grow up witnessing and that male role model to fall back on and even search for an example of in older years...and I really didnt. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 11:44:58 AM | I can totally understand why women would have felt inside some sense of injustice which led to the the actions taken by many during the past 30 years or so to avoid it for themselves. I'm not saying that I think their actions were correct, but just that I can understand their feelings.
One thing I do want to point out is that men have had just as many injustices lumped on them over the years....even way before feminism, but in different ways. I think women often fail to recognize these. They see the men at the table with the cigars and imagine that they are the poor victims and men are the oppressors. But men have always had their own painful burdens to bear as well.. Perhaps sitting at the table with the cigars was just one of the ways they found to be positive and enjoy being male.
For example, I remember distinctly when I was about 20 years old, Reagan sent warplanes to bomb that guy's palace in Egypt. That was the first time in my life that I felt real genuine fear that I might be drafted and sent off to some battlefield to die for some shit in the middle east that I didn't care the least bit about. I remember looking at the sunset and thinking the colors were different than before. The feelings of injustice effected me very profoundly.
Of course, there was not much I could do about it. If the draft was reinstated, I would have to march off to war, just like millions of other young men have for thousands of years when the leaders of their society decided it was "neccessary".
That is just one example.
Men have statistically died younger than women for years, primarily because they have always been expected to be the ones to put themselves into harm's way for the sake of the family and/or community, whether it be from a violent situation or by taking on a dangerous or life damaging profession(for example, working in a coal mine), or just the increased stresses of career life.
Unfortunately, in recent years, our society is becoming more and more self-serving to the individual's own specific needs, feelings, etc.. The needs of the community are being thrown out the window. As such, its only a matter of time before the community implodes. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 12:09:16 PM |
I was being bombarded by feminist thought during that time and actually considered myself a 'feminist' during those years, as hard as it is to believe now....
This is actually not that uncommon Blaugh. I know of a few guys I have met online or read books from that used to be active participants in the feminist movement. Somewhere along the line, things started going too far and those same men are backpedaling like crazy. For example, Warren Farrell. He has written numerous books. Once upon a time he was elected 3 times to the Board of the National Organization for Women in NYC. He used to give speeches that were met with thunderous applause from the feminist community. One day he woke up and realized that things were going too far. He began to ask for reasonable minds and was scorned out of the feminist movement. Now he is activist for the men's movement. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 12:16:47 PM |
Now he is activist for the men's movement.
I'm well aware of Farrell. I haven't read the whole book yet, but "Why men make more..." is apparently a real eye opener for many. I've read excerpts and the synopsis of the data he collected.
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 12:26:04 PM | fra59e ... you misinterpret what I've said ... I speak only for myself from experience ...
I have nothing against men other than it would be nice if they would at least give some of us woman a chance to meet them ... I like to read what a man has to say in his profile & if that connects with me, then would prefer to meet him to see if what he says matches the real person ...
I was 19 when my dad passed on & really didn't get to know him as well as I would have liked (had to share with 7 other sisters & brothers) so I don't compare & am not looking for my dad ...
don't have a Rule Book as I treat people the way I want to be treated & if they treat me badly it's their choice however it doesn't mean I have to stick around ...
I would love nothing more than to meet my equal & if there's a connection, would hope we could be by each other's side knowing that in life there is always some things that we might come up to work on ... I appreciate life in all forms & don't worry too much on the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval as I can take care of myself & do ... I believe all people have or will go through trials in life that will allow them to see just how strong they can be & how they handle it -- mine was watching my son in the hospital for 6 weeks & then being with him as he took his last breath in this world -- I don't judge others by what I see (physically) but how I am treated & even then, if I don't like it there are choices I can make ... so what really is the reason men don't date strong women -- it's anyone's opinion on that one ... I gave mine & quite sure as you did others will do the same ...  | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 12:27:40 PM |
I'm well aware of Farrell. I haven't read the whole book yet, but "Why men make more..." is apparently a real eye opener for many. I've read excerpts and the synopsis of the data he collected.
I've only read one "The Myth of Male Power". I can't vouch for the others. He is trying hard to be on everyone's side while approaching a politically incorrect topic. But he does his best to approach this subject with honest facts. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 12:32:30 PM | | Oh & by the way, I do have pictures that are available for those really interested in seeing them & have had them as part of my profile up until this past week ... anything I've written on my profile is, has been, always with be honesty & truth because after all is said & done, if you actually meet someone in person - it all comes out in the wash -- that's when you know whether what is in writing matches the person in front of you ... | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 12:43:29 PM | Myth posts:
Now that is what not only the words of a strong woman . . . that is a BEAUTIFUL woman . . . Margo . . . MARRY ME!!!! . . .
HEY DUDE, back of the line! I am ahead of you, with plans to come back in a future life reincarnated a lot younger and available and nearer to Margo and I want her. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 1:07:38 PM | I too have to praise Margo.
And I still think that some of this comes back to the whole "needy" vs "need" concept.
We're afraid to "need" people. So many people are adamantly against the idea of needing someone. I don't think that "want" is enough to sustain a modern relationship. We may not need each other for material things. In fact, most women probably don't need me to provide anything that they could not provide for themselves.... but my "Marc-ness" (if you will) has its own unique qualities that can't be found else where. And I would much rather be needed than wanted.
When I want something I am willing to settle for something else. When I need something, I'm not willing to settle for anything else.
(You can see this in my every day language too... if I want a taco, I might settle for a burger, but if I NEED a taco.... nothing will stop me from getting a taco. Also, sometimes when I just WANT the taco, half way through the meal I'll say, "Ya know, I kind of wish I would've gotten nachos instead." I've never had that happen with something that I felt that I NEEDED.) [Also, yes... I recognize that it's a bit silly to describe relationships in terms of food/food envy.... but it makes sense to me. I will say that I'm hungry though... that could explain it.] | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 1:15:56 PM | | .Marc ... very wise young man if I do say so myself ... never really looked at it from a "food" perspective ... not willing to just settle for what comes my way but looking for what I like, enjoy, & know what I really want ... thanks | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 2:15:10 PM | | Myth ... once again -- out of mouths of babes ... the nice part, our kids do see everything in our actions ... mine included who told me when I first went out on my own I've changed for the better -- they love me for it ... and as a mother, I wouldn't want them to be any other way ... thanks | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 4:15:22 PM | The battle ground has shifted, yet many are still on that same path, still trying to prove themselves, still resisting anything that sounds like it is making them inferior or trying to shove them back into the box. They are still living under the shadow of that box.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, margo. You describe pretty much what I figured was/is going on and explains much of what some of the men have been trying to explain as how we see the difference between a woman who IS strong and a woman who only screams at the world that SHE is strong. Many women seem to be hypersensitive to any hint that they are not perfect and that's a shame. It makes many women 'prickly' in my opinion and not much fun to be around.
My mother was to me the quintessential 'strong' woman, but she was a SAHM until my youngest brother started school. When we were all in school she went to work part-time to begin then full-time as the years went by. She was very intelligent, articulate, firm and loving. She used to shake her head about the Women's Lib movement or Feminism as it's now known. She really didn't see why there was such screeching going on. Her attitude was simply that men and women are different and each sex has their strengths. She figured that if a woman wanted to work and the kids were happy, let her, who cares? She NEVER saw herself as a victim and couldn't understand why anyone would assume that role.
Cheers. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 4:47:18 PM | | It is all about balance- there are times a woman needs to be soft and vulnerable, but other times strong and independent. Regardless, I believe all women love being romanced and made to feel special and cared for just as much as she also likes caring for her mate and making him feel equally special. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:21:36 PM |
Posted By: orchidtigress on 7/6/2008 4  18 PM Subject: Why men don't date strong women... Message: It is all about balance- there are times a woman needs to be soft and vulnerable, but other times strong and independent. Regardless, I believe all women love being romanced and made to feel special and cared for just as much as she also likes caring for her mate and making him feel equally special.
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True. It is all about balance. And there are times a man needs to be soft and vulnerable, but other times strong and independent. Regardless, I believe all men love being romanced and made to feel special and cared for just as much as he also likes caring for his mate and making her feel equally special.
Whether or not they will admit it to themselves and to others - that is a whole nother subject. It may not fit into the prejudices and preconceptions about what he thinks he "should" be according to the (imaginary) rules in some (non-existent) rule book. | |
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| Why men don't date strong women...
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:22:15 PM | Thanks for your kind words... can you see me blushing?
Unfortunately, in recent years, our society is becoming more and more self-serving to the individual's own specific needs, feelings, etc.. The needs of the community are being thrown out the window. As such, its only a matter of time before the community implodes. This concerns me greatly Ski. Contributions to charity – both in donated hours and in money – are down. If we get so caught up in self we stand to lose community.
The difference between Margo and myself may be that she DID have that marriage to grow up witnessing and that male role model to fall back on and even search for an example of in older years...and I really didnt. Yeah DJ, both my father and my brother played very important roles in my life. Sometimes I forget how important that is.
I notice how many woman say they can do male oriented tasks to prove their strength... I had the opportunity to take a look at that. First of all, raised on a farm, I learned to do many mechanical things, and it was part of my proving ground that I was as “good” as a man. My dad had hammered into me the need to be able to do these things (living in the country was a factor) and certainly as my brother and I shared all the farm work, he expected me to hold my end up… And then there came the weekend when I couldn’t change my own tire.
Worked at that sucker on and off for most of the weekend. Could NOT get the friggin tire off. Finally, as much as I absolutely hated to because it was admitting failure, I had to break down and ask my brother for help... only because it would have caused people more inconvenience if I wasn't able to drive to work the next day. Well, HE couldn't get it to budge either... had to bash the lug nut off (stripped).
I waited til he was finished the cussing and bleeding knuckles part of the job before I commented I was kinda glad it was stripped nuts because I had been working at it all weekend and was relieved to learn it wasn't a girl thing. He looked at me kind of puzzled and said he hated to burst my bubble but he figured it was a girl thing otherwise I would have KNOWN the nut was stripped. Then he said, why do this? What do you have to prove? Why don't you get a membership to CAA, take the jack out of the car so it no longer confronts your female equality stuff and the next time you get a flat, call CAA to come out and do it. You stay clean and secure, I save my knuckles and we're all good to go. And while you're at it, maybe you might want to look into something other than flat tires to measure the worth of your humanity.
I grew up a bit that day, lol. Learned a flat tire is just a flat tire unless you choose to make it into something else. (still have my CAA membership... but now I also can have my jack in the car).
Having rejected the “box” I was born into, I think I have spent most of my life figuring out how to be a woman. | |
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