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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/19/2008 7:14:52 PM |
Their way of relating to women is to control them. They can only do that by verbal, physical and/or emotion abuse or some mix of all of it. But those attitudes invariably come from the way they're raised. If they have an abusive father, that's the way they see a "normal" relationship so, as an adult, they go out and seek women who'll go along with the (his) program. It's a pretty simple dynamic and it's all around in varying degrees.
Very good points overall in your entire post, Bluesman2008. I'd take it a step further. The women (and in some cases men who become victims) are also impacted from what they learned in childhood. Varying degrees in terms of dynamics, as you so stated. The victims are as controlling as the abusers, yet exhibit it differently. That element of "enabling". Enabling is a form of control yet more covert.
For adult survivors of child abuse, again accounting for degrees, the strategies that were necessary and valid as a child abuse victim to survive then theoretically carry into adulthood. However, in adulthood those behaviors are no longer valid. It's part of the attraction between the abuser and the victim as adults. It's familiar for one thing whereas healthy is not. Familiar in the abstract sense is comparable to "comfortable". In that context, doing the work to become "healthy" is uncomfortable. IMO, the abuser and victim respectively don't know they are "unhealthy" until the consequences of their choices become motivators for the self-work each must do for themselves to have a better life.
The irony, at least in my opinion, between the abuser and the victim is that they are reflections of each other but in reverse. Such as holding up a card with writing on it in front of the mirror and the words are reversed.
Overall, I would say that there are two influences in childhood that define future relationships. The element of what the child is taught by virtue of the environment he/she was raised in plus the reactive strategies the child implemented according to the situation where there is an abusive element on the part of the parents.
JMHO  | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/19/2008 7:31:49 PM |
For adult survivors of child abuse, again accounting for degrees, the strategies that were necessary and valid as a child abuse victim to survive then theoretically carry into adulthood. However, in adulthood those behaviors are no longer valid.
Exactly. Those are termed "coping mechanisms". We create them to survive but, as you stated, in adulthood, they're not necessary. The problem is that that is an intellectual evaluation. The problem arises because those coping mechanisms become so firmly integrated into our personalities that they become a part of us. It's familiar and familiarity gives us a kind of comfort zone.
In that context, doing the work to become "healthy" is uncomfortable.
True enough. That's because it's having to learn a new dance step. It's new, uncharted territory and it DOES feel uncomfortable but that's natural until the "new dance step" is also integrated into the personality. After that, it's smooth sailing.
The irony, at least in my opinion, between the abuser and the victim is that they are reflections of each other but in reverse.
Ergo the symbiosis. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/19/2008 7:33:00 PM | OP:
I've recently looked into David DeAngelo's stuff, and though I have not yet looked into his research source material, on a logical level I do believe some of the stuff he says.
1. Women are naturally hard wired to be attracted to men who show dominance, physical strength, leadership, etc... (Manly attributes) as men with these attributes are more likely to create children who will survive (as they can better hunt, stand up for themselves within a group, etc.)
2. The instinctual and emotional side of the mind can easily take over the logical side of the mind.
3. Times have changed, where physical strength, dominance, leadership (over a tribe) is no longer absolutely neccesary for survival (rather the opposite, in today's society smart people make more money, live healthier, better lives...)
4. HOWEVER, the instinctive attraction (as "Attraction is NOT a choice") has not evolved with the social changes in our times.
5. Thus, they are attracted to, and put up with A-holes not because it is the best thing for them, but because they have no choice in the fact that they are attracted to them.
** Then you add the idea of these women being submissive, or are in too deep and are scared of what the guy will do or think, and any other phsycological barrier that is created over time to overwhelm logic.
- This is a psychological point of view, I can't site DD"s orignal sources but to me it makes quite a lot of sense. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/19/2008 10:05:14 PM | Because they r programmed as a child to think that the abuse doesn’t hurt them. They r desensitized by fathers and mothers who manipulate there children into doing good or bad things. With tools like guilt, shame, and belittling.... Is it any wonder that we accept this sort of behavior from our spouse?.....
At 44 a councilor asked me why I laugh when my wife poked fun at me in a demeaning way.. The first time I told her those things weren’t true was very hard... From that time on she didn’t belittle me in front of the kids... and started to pull away from me. She had lost her control......
Take back the life and respect that God has given u and say i am a child of the King, u will not talk down to me....
Give them no power.... | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/19/2008 10:43:20 PM | Sometimes the relationship starts out really well, then some form of control issue starts to come out from the abuser.....This may be for a variety of reasons that many of you already stated,and it could be from drug or alcohal abuse or bipolar disorder.
The abused may stay because they think that they can help fix the problem but only the abuser can do that. If you love this person in the begining of the relationship ,the abused has a hard time seperating themselves,and may fear retribution from the abuser, you've heard of woman leaving an abuser and it turns violent. Even with peofessional help , I left an alcohalic husband years ago,it was a slow process because even though he was verbally and mentally abusive my gut feeling was he would get violent. I waited untill I knew when I droped the divorce bomb that my child and I would be safe first....... | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 12:39:46 AM | Now the time came when he tried to kill me.. and guess what they did not charge him.. I was black and blue, with chunks of flesh missing strangled but no broken bones....
don't tell us you thought he was an extraordinary man beforehand. was he a gangster or something and you loved the mystique? Did you think was was normal in the beginning? I find it hard to believe that men suddenly change to become wife beaters. There had to be something known about his character ahead of time. Did he ever brag about getting over on people when you first met? Think hard about it and instruct the women what to watch out for...it'd be better if they hear it from a woman who went through the crap.
4. HOWEVER, the instinctive attraction (as "Attraction is NOT a choice") has not evolved with the social changes in our times.
5. Thus, they are attracted to, and put up with A-holes not because it is the best thing for them, but because they have no choice in the fact that they are attracted to them.
those are cop-outs. there is a choice and women often choose poorly. the nice guy complaints have merit and yet they are put down by women wanting to remain ignorant of their CHOICES that were based in instincts as opposed to being based on their higher thinking facilities. What goes on in the female mind? "I'll purposely not think deeply about what kind of guy i am getting involved with...i just know he's the bomb and i won't overthink anything to ruin it...i want others to see me with him and i'll do what i can to keep him." | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 3:48:14 AM |
The instinctual and emotional side of the mind can easily take over the logical side of the mind.
I disagree. To even subscribe to this line of thinking implies that one has no control over emotions when in fact how we respond emotionally is absolutely a choice. The autonomic response of "fight or flight" when confronted with imminent threat to one's personal safety, using an example of an "instinct", does not negate the fact that one's response to the "threat" at the time is very much a choice. Sounds like an age-old argument between the psychologists and the behavioral scientists.
HOWEVER, the instinctive attraction (as "Attraction is NOT a choice") has not evolved with the social changes in our times.
Again, I disagree. Attraction is more choice-driven than not. What attracts us to the kind of people we find ourselves attracted to is a learned behavioral driven choice. Values and such are learned ergot not instinctive at all. Even relationship dynamics are learned behaviors, not instinctive.
The only aspect in the context of the topic that is remotely autonomic about attraction is the illusion of no choice, yet within the deeper level of cognition even that element began with a choice at some point in time. It is an illusion consequential to denial and repression (both denial and repression are consciously chosen responses/reactions). As Bluesman2008 indicated in his last post, these reactions/survival mechanisms become an integral part of one's personality, ergot - IMO - most assuredly driving one's propensity towards attraction. However, integration into one's personality of these mechanisms does not negate the factor of choice in the aspect of attraction.
We all begin as infants, with our own distinctive personalities, yet also a blank canvas upon which the picture is painted with what we are taught, what we learn as well as how we choose to react and respond to what we experience. When the "environment" causes us pain, we are either going to react by fighting back, cowering in fear, walking away from the situation, or adapting to it. There are all manner of ways to walk away from a circumstance that causes pain without ever physically leaving the situation - denial being a huge method of "walking away" in that context. Still - it is a choice. Being drawn repetitively to people that in the end hurt us is still a choice, albeit a covert one. In the most generic sense, of course.
Thus, they are attracted to, and put up with A-holes not because it is the best thing for them, but because they have no choice in the fact that they are attracted to them.
It's not about attraction to a person at all, IMO. From the approach that in some manner in childhood there was an "abusive" element, part of a child's coping mechanism is wishful thinking and fairy tale expectations. This mechanism carries into adulthood and is, IMO, emotionally-based escape and denial. It isn't an "instinct" or absence of choice at all in terms of attraction. In that context, when the abuser and abusee initially perceive an immediate attraction, both at the onset are validated that they have found that perfect soul mate. It's what they want to believe. They act on their wants which is a conscious choice.
It isn't an attraction to the person at all, more an attraction to having the fairy tale fulfilled which is comparable to being attracted to an object. The person in this context that one is attracted to is the means to the desired end, not perceived as a real person at all. 'It" alleviates the emotional baggage of pain each carries at the onset and further validates for each of them that there is really a knight in shining armor or that perfect princess who will rescue them from their respective hurts. Only it isn't real, never can be real as they each have to rescue themselves first and foremost.
They put each other on the pedestal so to speak. As no partner is perfect, the illusion inevitably breaks down. Each partner in their own way desperately strives to retain the illusion that the other is their perfect soul mate.
The abuser by overtly (although covertly in the early stages) trying to conform the partner's behavior to sustain the illusion and the victim complies by changing the undesirable behaviors to sustain the victim's illusions of the abuser covertly (although progressively overtly as the abuse escalates). Note the parallel: both begin covertly and progress to more overtly controlling behaviors. Different behaviors, parallel goals. Both perceive themselves as victims and project themselves as such. Both are out of control yet need the derailment of the other to feel in control of themselves.
The victim is just as controlling as the abuser and every bit as manipulative as the abuser. Both have the choice to walk away at the onset, yet choose not to. More important than walking away from each of them is regaining that initial rush that was there at the onset of the relationship and sustaining it no matter what, neither theoretically having the learned ability to see beyond their own individual wants and needs. Both are out of control and need the other to sustain the illusion that they in control of themselves.
While chronologically both appear to be adults, emotionally both are still functionally children in varying degrees. Within that emotionally immaturity, both are very self-involved in that the world revolves around their wants and needs in effect each viewing the other as an object, rather than a person. Neither is capable of recognizing or even sustaining real love as both are so over-focused on their own respective needs at the expense of not only each other, but also themselves.
Theoretically and generically speaking. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 3:56:01 AM | Because i loved him,we had children, a wonderful life apart from the little upsets that would set him off..which was pretty much anything..because he was a caring,loving man i thought "i" could help him feel secure in my love for him and our family;but the SIGNS WERE THERE..i just choose to ignore them.. he nearly killed me in a drunken jealousy fuelled rage,threatened to run us into another car,i begged him not to hurt anyone else....this went on all night i was praying he would turn back into my loving boyfriend,but he pulled a knife the next day..6 months in gaol,and he's convinced it's all my fault..that he was the loving man i dreamt of..RESPECT...!! i HAD plenty b4 i met him,slowly he chipped it away...You are the prettiest girl here became everyman is looking at you u look like a slut,even tho HE picked my dress out.. THE CIRCLE OF ABUSE! violence,honeymoon period,tension,violence,honeymoon again..I'm sorry babe,it's because i love you so much,it's the way he looked at you..!! I AM NOT WEAK because i stayed I AM STRONG because i left him... | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:22:10 AM |
Because i loved him,we had children, a wonderful life apart from the little upsets that would set him off..which was pretty much anything..because he was a caring,loving man i thought "i" could help him feel secure in my love for him and our family;but the SIGNS WERE THERE..i just choose to ignore them..
Spot on in multiple aspects.
I AM NOT WEAK because i stayed I AM STRONG because i left him..
As valid as being STRONG for leaving:
*You respected yourself enough to rescue yourself...
*Put ownership on him to rescue himself or not, where it has always belonged...
*You chose to see through the honeymoon illusions to the painful reality of truth...
*It took great courage to push though those illusions, as it was a painful choice...
*And loved yourself enough to act in your own best interests, even though your best interests conflicted with what you wanted...
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:36:45 AM | | coltonic. your a damn man. you are much stronger than a woman and she cannot control you . she may try but she cannot actually do it. men are not scared of a little woman however when its reversed the man is way more powerful. he is much stronger. it is not nearly the same for a man as it is for a woamn. you try being the wearker spouse for awhile. if u were a woman u would really have a complaint ,but ur a man. alot bigger , alot stronger, way more powerful than some little ol woman. The only way a woman can hurt a man is if she uses something other than her little fist. but a man can kill a woman with his fist. I could beat a man for days with my fist and not hurt him, he would probably laugh at me. but a man can hit a woman one time and kill her. here is the problem a man can hold a woamn back because he is so strong but a woman cannot hold a man back becaue she is not nearly strong enough. I do not care if the woman is 300 lbs adn the man is 150 lbs. HE is stronger by far. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:59:21 AM |
The only way a woman can hurt a man is if she uses something other than her little fist. but a man can kill a woman with his fist.
Kitty-cat are you at it again? I’ll be sure to let all the Female Marines and Female Martial Artist I personally know that you think they are a bunch of wimps. Please stop your killing me over here with your assumptions and comments.  | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 5:10:06 AM |
coltonic. your a damn man. you are much stronger than a woman and she cannot control you . she may try but she cannot actually do it. men are not scared of a little woman however when its reversed the man is way more powerful. he is much stronger.
With all due respect, there are ALL manner of forms of abuse and it is precisely this attitude towards men that create all manner of barriers for men who are in abusive relationships as victims to get the support they need.
As far as physical strength between the genders, even that is presumptuous at best. If your perception were true, you just negated the viability of women in the military and even law enforcement to name a couple of professions.
It's one thing to quantify your post within the scope of your personal experience and quite another to be insensitive to another poster's disclosure that he was abused in a relationship simply because he is a man.
Coltonic - I have been active in abuse forums for well over a decade, encountering on rare occasion male victims within these forums. One such experience really stuck with me. He had been washing dishes and his wife was verbally assaulting him to such degree that he handled it by over-focusing on the task of washing those dishes so as not to react to her. When she didn't get the desired reaction, she took a 10-inch cast iron skillet to the back of his head and cracked his skull. That was the first time she had physically assaulted him.
So yes, men absolutely can be and are physically abused by women. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:22:42 AM | | its wrong for eihter to hit the other but the point being is man is way stronger than a woman and im not in the service which women u men date are not in service either or most of the men in here. but even if they were the man is stronger by far. I nevr said a man has not been abused. but its not nearly the same abuse as a woman goes through. big difference. whether u agree here or not is not important becaues in reality u know its true. men are the stronger. always have been and always will be. jsut common sence tells you that. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:26:53 AM |
So yes, men absolutely can be and are physically abused by women.
Thank you angelheart!  You are absolutely right; men can also be victims in cases of domestic assault. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:30:37 AM | | men sure can be if they let it happen. but a woman cannot stop it. we cannot hold a man back where a man can easily hold a woman back. i have never once said a man cannot be abused ..verbal abuse or physical abuse. they can ...they can also stop it. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:46:28 AM | You're welcome, Coltonic.
As for this statement of the other poster:
men are the stronger. always have been and always will be. jsut common sence tells you that.
Frankly, I much prefer UNCOMMON sense to "common sence" . Sadly, there are some individuals that prefer to stay quite stuck in their own perceptual illusions. These skewed beliefs actually lack foundation in tangible truth and realistically measurable data, all so one can feel absolved of taking ownership for their own share of accountability, not to mention have someone to blame for their own respective poor choices. Life is so much more enjoyable a journey without hauling all that excess "baggage" around.
men sure can be if they let it happen. but a woman cannot stop it. we cannot hold a man back where a man can easily hold a woman back
An EDIT here, just couldn't let this slip through the cracks.
Both men and women who find themselves as victims in an abusive relationship technically "let" it happen. The indicators aka red flags are always there at the onset. While neither is accountable for the behavior of the abuser, each victim is accountable for choosing to ignore those red flags - which in effect "lets" it happen the first time. After the first time, each victim that experiences a second time has "let" it happen by choosing to stay after the first time. No matter how justifiable the excuses are for staying, no way to pretty that one up. It is what it is.
Not all men can easily hold a woman back and quick frankly, in my overall life experience beyond the scope of romantic relationships, women can be some of the nastiest "fighters" aka abusers on the planet with the tiniest member of the human body - their tongue. While men may in SOME situations have more physical capacity to physically damage a woman's body, a woman with her tongue along can destroy a man's spirit with her words alone.
The most damaging type of abuse short of loss of life is the power of the tongue. I would even go so far as to suggest that even loss of life is better than having to recover from having to live with and recover from a spirit destroyed by words that go to the heart of a man, and yes - even a woman when she receives the same from a man. Women by my observations in life are much more effective and skilled at verbally targeting one's weaknesses for attack than most men IME. The body can heal and life goes on. Shatter a person's spirit, IF they can heal at all, it is a life journey in and of itself to glue it together again. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:57:08 AM | men sure can be if they let it happen. but a woman cannot stop it. we cannot hold a man back where a man can easily hold a woman back. i have never once said a man cannot be abused ..verbal abuse or physical abuse. they can ...they can also stop it.
When most people think of domestic violence, they think of men abusing women. While that stereotype is often true, many women are also guilty of violence against their partners. Mary Delgado, a former NFL cheerleader and contestant on the reality TV show "The Bachelor," was arrested in Seminole, Florida, for attacking her fiance Byron Velvick. The couple got into an argument, and Delgado became violent, striking Velvick in the chest and face, splitting his lip. Though Velvick reportedly did not want to press charges, police arrived and arrested Delgado. In January 2006, the wife of Indianapolis Colts cornerback Nick Harper stabbed her husband with a knife during an argument. According to police, Daniell Harper got a knife from a kitchen drawer and began waving it over her husband as he lay in bed at their Indianapolis home. In April 2002, actress Tawny Kitaen, wife of Cleveland Indians pitcher Chuck Finley, was charged with domestic violence for beating her husband. Finley did not call the police, but a third party did after seeing the blood and bruises on Finley from his wife's attack. Of course, this is just a small sample of cases; most women who attack and abuse their boyfriends and husbands are not famous, and neither are their victims. Domestic violence by women is very underreported. Many men are reluctant to admit that they were abused by a woman, and unless the injuries are serious or a third party intervenes, the man may simply put up with it. Studies have shown that women assault men about as often as men assault women. While men tend to cause more damage because on average they are stronger, not all men are bigger than their partners, and women can even the odds with weapons such as knives, high heels, and sharp nails. Men may also fear that if they fight back in self-defense, they themselves will be accused of abuse because of society's assumption that men are always the aggressor. There are hundreds or thousands of battered women's shelters across the country, but few if any shelters for battered men who may need a safe place to stay. In recent years, police officers have become more aware of male domestic violence victims, and many men are more willing to come forward. Stereotypes can be misleading, and domestic violence is a serious crime that should not be tolerated whether the victim is male or female.
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:37:45 AM | Domestic violence by women is very underreported. Many men are reluctant to admit that they were abused by a woman, and unless the injuries are serious or a third party intervenes, the man may simply put up with it. Studies have shown that women assault men about as often as men assault women. While men tend to cause more damage because on average they are stronger, not all men are bigger than their partners, and women can even the odds with weapons such as knives, high heels, and sharp nails. Men may also fear that if they fight back in self-defense, they themselves will be accused of abuse because of society's assumption that men are always the aggressor.
Sadly, these are all valid statements and are further substantiated even within this thread how men are assumed to be the aggressor. It is precisely that assumption that creates unnecessary barriers for male victims to exit these relationships or even act to defend themselves when assaulted by a partner. There was a time when women had nowhere to turn as it was acceptable for a man to "discipline" his wife so the women had nowhere to go. Now it's a sort of double-reverse in that few options are available to men who are abused. Yet, no less than women victims, men also need validation that the abuse is in fact occurring, no less than women, men are as caught up in the victim aspect of the cycle of abuse. So why make it harder for them just because they are men? They hurt, they love, they feel fear - all of this and more, just like we women feel.
If anything, we women now have a duty of care to diminish barriers for the male victims of abuse rather than create and foster the very barriers that keep many of them trapped in their circumstances. Abuse in all its forms is no respecter of persons whether male or female, child or adult. It's bad enough to be abused by a partner, far worse to be further abused by inaccessibility to the very resources one needs to escape it.
I have yet to encounter a female survivor of abuse who left without some form of help. Even if the only measure of help was words of encouragement or an ear that listened.
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 8:25:43 AM | | no one has said men are not abused. both are abused. no one is making it harder on a man. they dont go to shelters but neither did I. not all women go to shelters either and the ones that do is to feel protected. a man does not need the protection from a little woman half his size and or weight. even if the man is smaller the woman is no way stronger than him. not to be rude or disrespectful but If I ever saw a man in a shelter hiding out from a woman I think I would laugh my ass off. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 8:50:31 AM |
If I ever saw a man in a shelter hiding out from a woman I think I would laugh my ass off.
Attitudes like that are exactly why domestic violence by women is not reported as much. Many men are reluctant to admit that they were abused by a woman. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 8:50:43 AM |
If I ever saw a man in a shelter hiding out from a woman I think I would laugh my ass off.
Attitudes like that are exactly why domestic violence by women is not reported as much. Many men are reluctant to admit that they were abused by a woman. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 8:56:04 AM | I fullly agree with ya coltonic and why do u think that is? becuase the man is alot stronger than the woman and can handle himself quite easily. him in a shelter hiding from woman of all things would make him look like a pu$$y so to speak simply becuase he is so much stronger. my point has finally been made. thank u coltonic.
Icy43 I have walked in ur shoes. i was abused and beaten for 6 yrs. | |
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| Why do some women stay in abusive relationships?
Posted: 5/20/2008 9:04:30 AM | For those of you who have never been in an abusive relationship.
You think it is as simple as picking yourself up and leaving.
Well my one and only marriage was to an abusive man. When he was sober I was treated like gold, when he drank I was beaten/raped/ripped apart emotionally and verbally and physically.
Every time he hit me he apologized and was so remourceful, with promises of it would never happen again, please forgive me baby, you know how much I love you.
Eventually he would tell me it was my fault that he hit me, that I made him do it.
I still after years of counselling cannot see how I at five feet could make him at six foot four hit me...physically impossible.
I left him many times before my final escape with my children in tow. And he hunted me down every freaking time.
The final time he seriously held a gun to my head in front of his two children and told me if he could not have me, no one could...
So, for all you idiots who are so self rightous to think you have it all figured it, you tell me how you can get away from an abusive relationship, never judge until you have walked in my shoes. | |
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