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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 3/13/2007 11:55:12 PM | | No I dont think it getting like Natzi Germany the USA is in danger of becoming MEXIMERICA that's what it will soon be if they close the boarders completely and deport all the mexicans back as well dont fear the Natzi thing fear the MEXIMERICA possibilities. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 3/14/2007 5:27:33 AM |
No I dont think it getting like Natzi Germany the USA is in danger of becoming MEXIMERICA that's what it will soon be if they close the boarders completely and deport all the mexicans back as well dont fear the Natzi thing fear the MEXIMERICA possibilities.
Fear ignorant people with a racist agenda who can't spell nazi even when it's right in the subject line. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/14/2007 12:52:07 PM | "Fascism is historically specific to capitalism--that is to say, there were no fascist regimes found in slave or feudal societies."
First of all, any American can see how ignorant this statement is. In "slave or feudal societies" cold blooded murders have their own way of gaining absolute power. As I said in my last entry a couple of blogs ago,
“If things go too far to one side the American public catches it. I think the last election proved that. “It is not an American or western thing it is a human thing about problems in societies.
All cultures have their scum bags but the founders of this nation were wise enough to set check and balances of power so the scum bags could not get absolute power. For us Americans it is really about caring about our family and children and protecting our homes.
We have cultures around the world to draw from and our own unique culture. Yeah the scum bags are out there. I have been in subcultures all over the country. From the under ground to the churches. Every where I have found good men of God looking out for each other and messing up the scum bags. If you saw the movie Good Will Hunting it illustrates that. There is a genius out in the streets beating the S**t out of the bullies. We are out there. At least we hope to beat the bad out of the scum bags, each in our unique way, but if not oh well they get dealt with one way or another.
Please read what I wrote in my last entry three blogs ago. I personally think it is at the heart of what a lot of us believe in this great country of ours. It is the people that make us great and we know it. It is also that good will prevail in the end and our country will stand. Thanks for listening to me and thanks for the lessons this, well you know Americans, has to share. Keep it up far left and right. We will find that perfect middle ground in the end.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 3/14/2007 1:23:00 PM | | All of north america is slowly becoming facist.You notice the feminists,gays,immigrants,politically correct and liberals would say if you don't agree or support them you need to be "educated"? they imply the only correct way to think is their way even though society does things thier way and things get worse everyday.They promote thier propaganda on every sitcom and talk show.By the way kerry is NOT a true war hero read about him his own boat crew laughed at him.Kerry shoots an NVA soldier with an empty weapon and gets a medal? he scraped his knee and got a purple heart while some men come home without a leg who do you think is more deserving of the medal? last I checked the real war heros have ALL been republican.Audy Murphy,John McCain.Medal of Honor recipients Robert Howard,James Stockdale ect the best presidents like Reagan and Bush get things done while the lame ones like carter,ford and clinton do nothing.By the way clinton was in charge when the WTC was attacked the first time he does nothing so sure enough it happens again.At least Bush served while the democrats hero the draft dodging bill clinton ran off and hid in England.Why suddenly the concern for freedom when the BS gun laws have been stripping rights and freedoms for years and continue to do so and thats been working fine huh? The US should have taken saddam back in 91.I don't agree with the patriot act,I think OIF wasn't justified he should have went after the saudis, and everyone deserves due process but its not bush that makes all the decisions he has a team of people that recommend what to do.Paul wolfawitz,ari fliecher,alan greenspan ect wait a second,these guys are jews and they hate arabs ..hmmm.I support the troops we can either fight terrorists in downtown baghdad or down town new york take your pick. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 3/14/2007 4:46:56 PM | The problem is that worldwide the USA was pretty much seen as being the one place where individual rights were the cornerstone of society and political thought. It was understood that (unlike other societies where collective rights are primary) that this was impossible to change.
Suddenly, overnight, it did.
Some Americans started talking about things like torture, and holding people without trial. Not only talking about it, but standing strongly in support of it. Actually doing it...
Religion, which was always seen as a private thing, suddenly became public policy. God suddenly became a cabinet member, and direct political/foreign policy advisor.
Unlike the previous historical version of religion in America, one where God was quietly in the background, this time he's actually got a White House pass.
Add to that the attacks on liberals, who were always an important part of the American political landscape. People started arguing (and you can see that often expressed by some posters here) for what is essentially a one party system.
You notice the feminists,gays,immigrants,politically correct and liberals would say if you don't agree or support them you need to be "educated"? they imply the only correct way to think is their way even though society does things thier way and things get worse everyday.They promote thier propaganda on every sitcom and talk show.
- already expressed in this thread
Versus :
Parallel to the training of the body a struggle against the poisoning of the soul must begin. Our whole public life today is like a hothouse for sexual ideas and simulations. Just look at the bill of fare served up in our movies, vaudeville and theaters, and you will hardly be able to deny that this is not the right kind of food, particularly for the youth...
Theater, art, literature, cinema, press, posters, and window displays must be cleansed of all manifestations of our rotting world and placed in the service of a moral, political, and cultural idea.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated.
For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Versus
Tyrants and dictators will accept no other gods before them. They require disobedience to the First Commandment. They seek absolute control and are threatened by faith in God. They fear only the power they cannot possess -- the power of truth. So they resent the living example of the devout, especially the devotion of a unique people chosen by God.
- George Bush ,
(rather ironically, at the National Commemoration of the Days of Remembrance (of the Shoah) at the US Capitol on April 19, 2001
If the German nation wants to end a state of affairs that threatens its extermination in Europe, it must not fall into the error of the pre-War period and make enemies of God and the world; it must recognize the most dangerous enemy and strike at him with all its concentrated power. And if this victory is obtained through sacrifices elsewhere, the coming generations of our people will not condemn us.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Versus
Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.
-Presiddent Bush , Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People
You can play a fun little game sometimes with the things you see extreme right wingers say. Try replacing the word "liberal" with the word "jew", everytime they speak. If you do that, it begins to sound a little scary.
Deja vu, anyone ? | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 3/14/2007 10:36:00 PM | feminists,gays,immigrants,politically correct and liberals
Known friends of facist regimes. 
they imply the only correct way to think is their way even though society does things thier way and things get worse everyday.They promote thier propaganda on every sitcom and talk show.
Uh huh they imply they should be allowed to live their own way. Things get "worse" because they are not like you (thats what real facist thought is about)
"various BS accusations about John Kerry which have no truth to them and if I read a non fox news source in my life I'd realise"
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth
Oh look they are full of crap! Hey look here is a list of republicans who didn't serve in vietnam but talk like they're war heroes now!
http://www.nhgazette.com/news/chickenhawks/chickenhawk_headquarters/
Not compared to bush's military service.
Oh and now the jews are at fault.
So wait. Jews, gays, liberals, socialists, immigrants. Jokes about killing them. Hmmm what group does this sound like?
Oh yah Americas becoming more facist alright, you're just too blind to realize which side you're on
Edit:Crap Montreal guy you made my point way better than I did. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 3/15/2007 5:12:29 AM | Actually the last four post were very interesting. First I hear the far right then the middle, then the far left then the middle. Most people can see past ignorant one sided views and see more rational and caring concept of what to believe. Some get dragged into the emotionalism that the far right and far left appeals to but most see past it and one day I believe it will be past with out getting to deep on you guys. You can fool all the people some of the times and some of the people all the time but you can not fool all the people all the time.
I mean no offense to the rest of the world. It is just I know the people in this country and have little espouser to other cultures directly. As long as people view it as us and them, they will always be against us.
The dangerous aspects of the far right did have the good decent innocent people in the churches going for a while there but a lot of that is calming down. If you go into various neighbor hoods in this country what you will find is people looking out for their children, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers and their buddies. They are trying to get their naive away from the scum bags, help the scum bags learn what is evil but first stop them from doing evil. First comes the innocent then comes our missionary work.
Once again I mean no offense to the rest of the world. I am sure there are other holy places. I have had a lot of espouser to the Philippine people and they seem like a holy people for instance. America really are a holy misunderstood people also, from the partiers to the church goers. It just does not look that way on the surface some times but is you look deeper you will find it. I would just like us to stop fighting with each other over our differences and as a people find the beauty that all we Americans have in common. United we stand divided we fall.
There was a survey that found 60% Americans claimed to be religious or so. I suspect the other 33% or so would say they are not religious they are spiritual. That is what I have found. That is a good thing guys. To hold what is good and decent as a priority in our lives and not the negative. Just go to a biker bar and start cutting down Christ and see what happens. My point of all this is that we are, I have concluded, not in danger of becoming like Nazi Germany because we are not only good people but we are very wise about scams and tricks. I think the last election proved that.
As far as Iraq I can get in the should have number one, one man did not have the right to lie and manipulate us into a war and then after we were in there number two, we should have thrown every thing we had for a month or two to wipe out the cold blooded killers in that society and then threw every thing we had to train a Iraq military and police so they could defend themselves while help those people who are decent people over there to establish their own government that they want and then left. We should have been out of there by now and then we would have been known as the heroes, to those people, that the American people really are. I do not know details but I do know that.
But now it seems that strategies to accomplish giving the country back to those people are in place which is the American way. I may not know details but I do know good people are working on it even if the scum bags are trying their tricks within us and without us.
Bottom line, As long as people view it as us and them, they will always be against us.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 3/15/2007 6:44:24 AM | Next time you are at the local video store, I have a suggestion. It's not a great movie in any real sense, but given when it was made, and it's subject matter, it's a fascinating film to take a look at.
Go rent "The Siege" with Bruce Willis, from 1998. Remember it was shot probably a year or two before that, as you watch it.
Anthony 'Hub' Hubbard: Are you people insane? What are you talkin' about?
General William Devereaux: The time has come for one man to suffer in order to save hundreds of lives.
Anthony 'Hub' Hubbard: One Man? What about two, huh? What about six? How about public executions?
General William Devereaux: Feel free to leave whenever you like, Agent Hubbard.
Anthony 'Hub' Hubbard: Come on General, you've lost men, I've lost men, but you - you, you *can't* do this! What, what if they don't even want the sheik, have you considered that? What if what they really want is for us to herd our children into stadiums like we're doing? And put soldiers on the street and have Americans looking over their shoulders? Bend the law, shred the Constitution just a little bit? Because if we torture him, General, we do that and everything we have fought, and bled, and died for is over. And they've won. They've already won!
General William Devereaux: Escort him out.
It's an almost Nostradamus like look at the world three or four years into the future that would arrive on 9/11. Seen through that lens, it makes for an interesting look at the very subject we are talking about here.
Spoiler alert !
In that movie Denzel plays Hubbard. He's the stereotypical "American" , in that 1998 world we once lived in. Willis, as Devereaux, is the "bad guy". Denzel is like Gary Cooper in "High Noon" , or Henry Fonda in "Twelve Angry Men". He's standing up alone against everyone else, and arguing from a uniquely American cultural and historical perspective.
Hubbard "wins" in the end, and then there is a surprise last shot in the film.
After 2001, those roles become reversed - overnight. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 3/16/2007 2:35:35 PM | Yeah I saw the movie The siege. It did make its point. The point I am making is that yes there are people in USA who abuse their rights and power. They do go around and use their technology, charisma and influence to spy on people, abuse their authority and violate people’s rights. The reason that I have not found employment yet may very well be because I do speak what I believe is truth and may have made some influential people angry that are using their resources to keep me from working. Do people think just because congress made it illegal during the early 80's the government boys/etc who did that type of thing I just described, just stopped?
What ever, I will just stay a good man of honor and integrity, keep being productive with college and volunteer work and not worry about it. The point is not are there people that do bad things. Yes, there are the good, the wise, the evil, the fools in any culture and all points in between. The point I made a few post ago is that the evil and/or fools don't have absolute power like Nazi Germany. Good wise people are in power also.
The brilliance of the founders of the USA is not that they would create a system where the Government could do no wrong, never do evil and evil people could not get into authority so they could abuse their power. It is to distribute power so that the evil people could not find a way to get absolute power like they did in so many other cultures. Yes the wrong people are in power but so are the right people.
I suggest you might see a movie Dancing with Wolves which I believe was a master piece. It showed one tribe where the wise lead the tribe and the foolish were the warrior and workers. In that way even the fools were wise in their way. They made peace with the white man and knew of the important things in life like taking care of your loved ones. The other tribe had fools leading the tribe and the wise were the workers and the warriors. They went out raiding the wise tribes and killing the white man. In many ways we are like the American Indians nations with our areas and national government, our various types of leaders and groups/tribes.
There is a comparison and a legitimate claim that much of the model of our country was modeled after the American Indian and not just John Locke.
I did see a dangerous thing going on in this country and wanted to do my small part to try and get things to swing back towards the middle in this blog. But from what I see now is, all the people are not fooled all the time and wise leaders, both left and right are getting the power they/we should have back. These things tend to come and go in waves.
By the way yes, there is the technology out there for people to listen to anyone any where and yes people will abuse that technology. But people don’t have the resources to spy on everyone and one tool people who want to mess with your individual tribe/scene/groups of buddies/neighborhood…. Is to try and get people in your group of buddies thinking spies/dangers are under every rock and it could be any one. People create paranoia. Well if you guys are down right evil, good people are every where but that is not what I am talking about. You have your scene good people and know that there are good people around looking out for the good, wise and good, foolish people that are within and without your scene/group. Good and wisdom is stronger than evil and foolishness. The light will shine into the darkness and there is only darkness when the light is not present. That is how I deal with it.
As I said “As long as there are people that look at it as us and them, they will always be against us. Just remember we are within and without them also.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/17/2007 9:50:20 AM | “I think if the democrats take over we will be in danger of being like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union.”
I agree, if the Democrats or the Republicans or The Greens of even the community Woman’s Garden Club or the Salvation Army or the Kiwanis Club or the Boy Scouts of America takes over we are danger of becoming like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union was.
What happens if any group gains absolute power is that evil and/or foolish people will find a way to gain control sooner or later. What happens next is because they have absolute power and they are a combination of foolish and evil people is that they use their absolute power to keep their power. The only way to get the power from them is through militaristic means.
Thank God that we have a system of check and balances and distribution of power in its obvious forms and not so obvious forms; from the poor who joined the military, to the good bikers on the street, to the good cops to the government boys, from the people to the business.
Thank God when the Republicans were gaining too much power the people caught it. Not that Republicans are bad. Some Republican leaders are good men of Honor, some are scum bags and some are foolish just like the Democrats.
I think the founders of this country who were good men brilliance will continue to shine clear. Yeah some of the founders were not good men. Just look at their seeds about slavery and you can know that. Seek and you will find. As a people we are seeking equal justice and opportunity for all and we really are one nation under God, from the counter culture to the main stream. We will find, as long as a people, we keep searching for the right things. If we can find the similarities that unite us as a people and stop bickering over petty difference we will unite and become FAR holier than any thing ever seen in history.
United as a people we stand. Divided we fall. There are more levels to that than many realize, Democrat against republican, poor man against middle class against rich man, minorities against majorities, intelligent against average intelligence, partier against the sober and on and on and on. These are all ways that keep the people from uniting in our common goal of loving our friends and family, protecting our homes and loving the one true God.
As I see it there is a logical reason that has kept the human race from finding peace on earth. That is why the wars and so forth. The enemy of goodness, human and spiritual. has used its tricks through out the ages to keep the good people from uniting so the evil can find ways to get power. It is called play both ends against the middle, find way to get good people to go after good people so we don’t unite against the evil people. I am not just referring to spiritual ways to under stand this phenomenon but there are also empirical explanations.
You are right if Mothers against Drunk Driving take over, we are all doomed. Pretty soon people thought to be drinking; period and thought to say MAD is wrong will be taken from their homes and shot and so on and so on and so on.
As I continue to stress “As long as people look at it as us and them, they will always be against us.”
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/17/2007 10:19:32 AM | | Put 10 people in a room and tell them a story, you can bet by the time they get home and tell someone, the story will havd changed dramaticly..Now try doing that in a country like America..its scary to me....In my humble opinion, the politicians in this country are on a totaly differant agenda than alot of us...They will say and do whatever it takes to get there candidate elected, no matter of the consequenses | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/17/2007 10:57:11 AM | "Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany"
No, because when the next elections come around, it will be won by the democrats and unless the voting is rigged, you will have a country that will swing back to the left again.
Hopefully closer to the middle because IMHO, I think the worst thing that anyone outside the US has experienced is not ne0-conservativism, or far left wing social democracy, but American Idealism that tends to ursurp any good that is actually done in the world in the name of American Foreign Policy.
Actually, that also includes UN idealism as well. The UN is as bad or worse than American Hegemony.
IMHO of course. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/17/2007 11:55:37 AM | The problem is the issue of control, and in the current case of America this control is in a very direct contrast to the history of the country - hence the topic of this thread.
If you suddenly go from the USA that we all grew up with (Americans and foreigners) to this present state of affairs, essentially overnight, a lot of people will be shocked.
Democracy is dissent. When we see police and military intelligence assets going after legitimate and non-violent peace protestors, it's a dangerous trend.
When we see a certain segment of the population, it's aristocracy, essentially detaching itself from the rest of the country, and turning it to serve it's own ends, it's troublesome.
Why do you think the term liberal has become such a perjorative word in the last decade or so ? Liberal thought, true liberal thought, is the greatest danger to the rather cozy life lead by this selfsame aristocracy.
In the last twenty years or so, especially in the last six, this group has one victory after victory in walking away from it's obligations as citizens. Taxes are lowered, and money is returned to the richest in the land - while a deficit grows and grows. Even "estate taxes"( now called "death taxes") reduce their taxes. The reason for the change in name was to turn to the jingoism that all too often powers the debate, so that the common man will vote for something that is against his best interests. Because of it, over generations, this aristocracy will only snowball in economic power.
Free trade is preached from every rooftop, but American sugar producers get a price for their product that far exceeds the world market. As a result, some American companies close. Lifesavers closed it's operations in the USA, and moved to Montreal, because a few people in the USA get rich because of a wonderful political set up that rewards the few at the expense of the many.
What happens is that the poor cannot pay more, so the working/middle class are increasingly carrying the burden dropped by the rich. This is the same class whose destiny is also controlled by that same aristocracy, who can send their jobs to other countries. That means the American worker, who now has more and more of the tax burden to support, has to try (and fail) to compete with a foreign worker in some Third World like economy. In the meantime, the aristocracy continues to make even more money by doing things that are essentially destroying their country.
When we see a leader that's going in a direction in Iraq that almost everyone in the country (from the common man to the experienced specialists in various fields), it's a cause for concern.
When we see lies cynically used to herd a population towards war, it reminds many of us of what that period in Germany was all about. There too an elite group of industrialists, some even Americans, made fortunes of off such acts. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/17/2007 3:20:08 PM | re: leif message 355
"Fascism is historically specific to capitalism--that is to say, there were no fascist regimes found in slave or feudal societies."
"First of all, any American can see how ignorant this statement is. In "slave or feudal societies" cold blooded murders have their own way of gaining absolute power. As I said in my last entry a couple of blogs ago,
****Leif my son--that fascism is historically specific to capitalism is a, well, *historical fact*--please point out to me *where* there are any historically recorded instances of fascist regimes in history. I also noticed that you didn't challenge/criticize the article I posted in that URL accompanying my post. Having read your riposte, its not surprising at all. Based on your posting, you are saying that fascism existed in feudal and slave societies. Well my son, you best be writing a book/paper on that because boy you would be heralded as the greatest historian in, well, *history*. Nonetheless, I'll save you the trouble by saying you cannot because there simply haven't *been any* (according to *all* other historical accounts that is). As for your chauvenistic "any American can see etc etc", well, that's just a rhetorical device known as "the bandwagon fallacy". Seen in its different forms (yes, they can take many forms), it can also be disguised as:
* Appeal to Popularity
* Argument by Consensus
* Argumentum ad Populum
* Authority of the Many
In essence, your position is a red herring. Turning to a more enlightened and substantive discussion, let's have a look at what economic historian Ernest Mandel sees/defines as fascism:
"[It] is a product of a severe systemic crisis of monopoly capitalism (imperialism), in which the normal valorization [value creation] of capital under conditions of bourgeois parliamentary democracy is being increasingly undermined. Parallel to this crisis in the economy and in the political institutions, there is a radicalizing discontent among declasse social layers, primarily among the petty bourgeoisie, and their growing organization in new forms of mass organizations. [...] These operate initially in an autonomous way, but are then used to an increasing extent by big business in its attempt to detroy the organized labour movement and to atomize the working class." (107)
Given what you have said, your position seems even more ludicrous: you are saying that slave and feudal societies were democratic. Seems to me that , given Mandel's position , democracy and capitalism are incompatible, and getting rid of it (democracy) is a key part of fascism/Nazism's character. Just because fascism/Nazism doesn't take the exact same appearance as it once historically did, hardly dismisses or invalidates arguments and analysis of its existence; like your red herring argument, it can take different *forms*. As long as there is capitalism, fascism is an historical possibility, *period*. Consequently, you might want to go back and revisit your entries on Nazism/fascism and do a *real* analysis instead of watching historical revisionist accounts in movies, i.e., read a textbook like, oh say Ernst Nolte's "3 Faces of Fascism". Oh, and by the way, there was a thread here a few weeks back asking people to join a National Socialist Party, other wise known as a fascist party. Oh say, can *you*see? Nice crossing swords with you.
cheers
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/17/2007 10:19:01 PM | “Based on your posting, you are saying that fascism existed in feudal and slave societies. Well my son, you best be writing a book/paper on that because boy you would be heralded as the greatest historian in, well, *history*”
That is not what I said. I said “In "slave or feudal societies" cold blooded murders have their own way of gaining absolute power.”
There are more ways than fascism for cold blooded killer to gain power. In slave and feudal societies people were treated as property and cold blooded killers could rape and murder the pheasants/slave with no consequences. Just watch the movie Brave heart and that is illustrated very well. I say “FREEDOM!”
Now Montreal Guy at 368 etc you make some very intelligent points. I am always delighted to see you express your self. We need good men like you making your point to keep the balance just like we needed Mothers against Drunk Drivers making their point.
Yes Montreal Guy I agree that control is a concern. Yes drunk driving is a concern but these laws never stop. Now I understand that there are areas in the USA where drunks can’t go into their car to sleep it off which I am sure results in drunks saying well I better drive home so I don’t get busted.
There is one statement you made Montreal Guy I tend to believe is a bit naive. That is “If you suddenly go from the USA that we all grew up with (Americans and foreigners) to this present state of affairs, essentially overnight, a lot of people will be shocked.” There is a word or phrase that explains us thinking that there was a more innocent and better time in our past. The truth is I have saw many a documentary about the corruption and cruelty in America past: The trail of tears of the Indian, The Mobster having control of the government in the mid to late 20 century that may be fading but is definitely a factor today.
We can hear of the great deeds of men in our past and over look the evil deeds of men in our past. Hind site is there to learn from so we need to pay attention to both the good and the bad in our past.
I once presented my theory to a economic teacher that man is killing them selves less than they were in the past and on average are not as barbaric. I brought up that there was a time where crucifixion was common place in cultures world wide and are rare today. He brought that there was a statistical study that stated people are murdering each other less today than in the past. Now I know you never know about what they say but maybe someone out there can confirm what my economic teacher said.
What I am hearing in the news and by the common man though is points like Montreal Guy brought up are being presented in the open forum more and being dealt with. Hearing moves being made to bring our soldier home, reports of not taking care of our soldier and that this evil is being dealt with. Also finding ways to give the country back to the Iraq people which is what I guess is meant by winning over there while getting our soldier out as soon as possible.
I don’t hear so much bind patriotism, fanaticism and what appeared to be fear to speak up like I was seeing when Bush had no one to challenge his reign as my father put it. Things appear to be getting back to normal sort of. I have heard from historians that events can swing far one way or the other but it always swing back to the middle because the check and balance of the people catch it and stop dangerous trends.
Please Montreal Guy bring up your points. But I will bring up that missionary work around the world is at a high. That even though there are corrupt people every where, there are intelligent wise men every where also. Good, wise intelligent men can out think the evil, crafty and foolish men in the end. As long as the evil, crafty and foolish men can not find a way to seize absolute power we shall win. I also know there are straight church men of integrity that lean more towards the conservative I am routing for also. Even rich men like Jimmy Carter can be good men.
You guys need to learn to work together and learn from each other so we can beat the villains once and for all. The main way villains gain power is they get good people going after each other instead of focusing on the common foes of our families and love ones.
I know this is getting to be a mantra but like I said “As long as there are people that look at it as us and them, they will always be against us. Just remember we are within and without them also.”
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/17/2007 10:41:09 PM |
There is one statement you made Montreal Guy I tend to believe is a bit naive. That is “If you suddenly go from the USA that we all grew up with (Americans and foreigners) to this present state of affairs, essentially overnight, a lot of people will be shocked.” There is a word or phrase that explains us thinking that there was a more innocent and better time in our past. The truth is I have saw many a documentary about the corruption and cruelty in America past: The trail of tears of the Indian, The Mobster having control of the government in the mid to late 20 century that may be fading but is definitely a factor today.
As I said, and I still believe, there was quite an abrupt change in the American mindset. It's true that in the past sometimes things were not acceptable, but those things tended to apply to only certain segments of the population, at certain times. Those things were made better by people unafraid of speaking out, and acting.
The psychic shock of 9/11, that surprise of "getting hit" in such an awful way, was the changeover point. If you couple that with the cynical use of such an incident to set the stage for other things, you see quite a great change in what the USA stands for occuring overnight.
In my mind, and in the mind of many others, being American meant not being afraid. It's that "only thing we have to fear is fear itself " concept. Never in my life did I expect to see Americans torturing people, nor hearing other Americans condone such actions. I never expected to see America essential "give the finger" to the rest of the world, and ignore international laws.
I never expected to see every liberal considered as an enemy of the state. Just read the threads here, and listen to the way those on the extreme right refer to ALL liberals. What are they proposing ? A one party state ?
My argument isn't against all conservatives, because I know they are needed for balance. I would certainly not want a one party liberal state , either. The entire essence of democracy is the balance between two opposing sides. That's it's greatest strength, and the reason it works so well, when the people involved realize it.
I hear Americans supporting people being wiretapped, without any judicial oversight . People seem ready to give up everything, for a false sense of protection. If you strip away people's rights, what's left afterwards ? Societies have faced far greater threats, with far less draconian measures. No matter what you do, the threat will always be there. There is no such thing as 100 percent security. That's a myth.
Spying on non-violent anti-war protestors ? What value has any democracy if people are threatened when they express themselves non-violently ?
America, at least to me, was about being able to voice an opinion without fear. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/18/2007 2:05:57 PM | Montreal_Guy yeah I agree with the last post and really didn't mean to sound like I was completely disagreeing with you. That is why I used the word a bit naive and not just naive. I admit I was shocked at the reaction of Americans myself and that is why I started this post.
“ Never in my life did I expect to see Americans torturing people, nor hearing other Americans condone such actions. I never expected to see America essential "give the finger" to the rest of the world, and ignore international laws.
I never expected to see every liberal considered as an enemy of the state. Just read the threads here, and listen to the way those on the extreme right refer to ALL liberals. What are they proposing ? A one party state ?”
Actually that is nothing new. It is just those types used the excuse of 9/11 to gain power and get people to back them that they would not have other wise. In the Americans prisons people have been tortured illegally by guards and had other American justifying it for years. The only difference is those types tried to make it legal and legitimate. What resulted is it opened many American eyes what these people were trying to do.
There have been those types in America who have given the finger to the rest of the world all along. The difference is now we have that type as President who will break international law. After all we were one of the main players to make that international law but well you know.
There also have been those types who have always considered liberals as enemies of the state. That was actually worse in the past. Liberals were given the labels of pinkos and put in jail for saying what they believe. Yet once again the types who try and make it seem that the liberals are traitors used 9/11 as a platform to rally the American people to their beliefs.
There is a play I saw written by a good friend that was about a man that spoke up against World War Two and the corrupt establishment of his time. He was put in jail for speaking against the war. Now I am not going to say what the man said is right about the war but I will defend his right to say it. Now antiwar activist speak up and are not put in jail for speaking their mind.
Yeah the control freaks and enemies of freedom and equality did have the American public going for a while there. But the public did see the type of things you mentioned and thank God, it is swinging back to the middle again.
“There is no such thing as 100 percent security. That's a myth.” True
“My argument isn't against all conservatives, because I know they are needed for balance.”
Thank you for making that clear. I suspected that was your thought because what you said in other post but really was talking to the type of image you created in my mind and not you directly. I realize you are a rational man. I apologize if it appeared I stereo typed you.
In the past there was a time in American history where the gangsters were the controlling force in society and those who did business with them. The American public of the time accepted this and it was no secret.
Example Jimmy Hoffa. He made it clear that he dealt with gangsters and the public backed him in this. The rich were known to do business with the gangsters and have the gangsters do their dirty work while the rich kept their hands squeaky clean. This was all done in the open.
Now it is done in secret and the public is kept ignorant about the gangsters and the rich who do business with them. But the fact it is done in secret should tell you that good men found ways to gain fortunes and get into positions of authority.
The gangsters, really war lord types want people to believe that they have all the power so good men will be afraid to get into our institutions and make positive change. Yes I see the bad seed around about what these violent men that have no honor are doing but I also see the results of what good men of honor are doing.
How about we point the finger at where it belongs. Not at the American culture and people as a whole but to those few corrupt evil men with no honor who are in positions of power that cause good people to support them because of evil mens lies and get good people to do bad things. I will try to explain latter the techniques some of these evil man use like to create scapegoats like pinkos to cover up their crimes.
I don’t want to point my fingers at any one directly unless it is obvious because one of their tricks is to make it seem like men of honor is one of them. Lets start to support the good men who have fought and some died, like Robert Kennedy to try to make our institutions from within and without worthy of the greatness of the American people. They are there, right now and God bless you good men. You know who you are and many know who the gangsters and associates are and I know you good men are doing what you can.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/18/2007 6:46:45 PM | re: leif message 370
“Based on your posting, you are saying that fascism existed in feudal and slave societies. Well my son, you best be writing a book/paper on that because boy you would be heralded as the greatest historian in, well, *history*”
That is not what I said. I said “In "slave or feudal societies" cold blooded murders have their own way of gaining absolute power.”
There are more ways than fascism for cold blooded killer to gain power. In slave and feudal societies people were treated as property and cold blooded killers could rape and murder the pheasants/slave with no consequences. Just watch the movie Brave heart and that is illustrated very well. I say “FREEDOM!”
Well Leif, seems to me that you *implied* it--as you said "any American can see this is ignorant, etc etc." You started this thread and now you are withdrawing from any meaningful discussion of it. You challenged my assertion that fascism can only be found in capitalist societies, and then equated it with a "cold blooded killer". Could you possibly point out a couple of examples form me in either slave or feudal societies, please?? It is rather *simplistic* and erroneous to equate fascism with being a "cold blooded killer"--is that how you made such a sweeping historical statement?? True, people were treated as property in slave and feudal societies. But I don't think they could rape and kill at will as you claim--please show me evidence of this. Using Hollywood movies to buttress your point is the height of folly--its *make believe*. As for that *nauseating* definition of "freedom", well, even *that* is an illusion: as much as you would like to believe it, we are not truly free. The German philosopher GWF Hegel would say that the "freedom" found in capitalist (and feudal and slave societies for that matter) is a *negative* freedom: "Individual freedom is valuable to the extent that it permits one to engage in and identify with a common, public life. This is in opposition to the traditional liberal idea that individual freedom is valuable because it allows one to *escape* contact with others. For Hegel, the Greeks' slaves were not free precisely in that they were not allowed to participate in public life." When all our basic needs are met--food, clothing, shelter, etc, i.e., freedom from our necessities, then we will all be *truly* free. To say otherwise is ignorant. Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany? Hypothetically, *yes*--it is the leading capitalist country (the most developed), and the contradictions upon which the system rests will most likely mature there first. Consequently, it *can* happen--its just a matter of which form it will take.
"[F]ascism is a police dictatorship resting on the middle class and backed by big business (the meaningful definition) [.]" When you want to participate in a meaningful discussion using concrete historical analyses without referring to slippery definitions and Hollywood movies for "proof", I'll be more than happy to participate again.
cheers
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/19/2007 4:56:00 AM | OK analog kid I will go over this again. The statement was not will we become a fascist society but will we become as bad as Nazi Germany. Earlier in this thread we went over in detail about other examples of different social systems that were as bad as Nazi Germany as well as things like the slaughter of the American Indian that were as bad as things the Nazis did.
I have not back off as some may interpret my latest post. When I made this thread this summer I saw some very dangerous trends. Now I am expressing my belief that there is a sift away from this dangerous trend of an imbalance of power. We need to focus on finding the bad aspects of our culture and the lets say wolves in authority and accent the positive in American culture and back the people who dedicate their lives to serving man kind through positions of authority.
I know there are those people who want to see our culture and society collapse so they could instill what they think it should be. The purpose I had in this thread was to make people aware of dangerous forces in play and dangerous people in authority so that the forces in society and the right people in society would act to improve our culture and strengthen our institutions into the good forces they have the potential to be. I was just doing my small part to help the right people.
All that would happen in the collapse of the corporate structure of western culture is worse forces would take power. As bad as corporate structure can be they are the best game in town. It is not the corporate structure that is bad but certain bad people in the corporate structure. There are a lot of good, intelligent, wise and productive people also within the corporate structure.
As far as debating whether Feudalism or slavery is a reasonable solution to today’s problems is just a waste of mine and any other readers time to even entertain. Yes I am making sweeping statements because on this medium I don’t have the time get into specifics. I realize some won’t be bright enough to get it but most I am sure will.
Professor Hawking made an interesting comment on the history channel today. He is considered one of the most intelligent people in the world. I will have to paraphrase. He said that for a human made catastrophic disaster to happen tomorrow is unlikely. But as the number of ways for man to destroy or kill large populations increases because of advances in technology the likely hood he will destroy himself increases. He gave a figure of a thousand of years or so which I will have to admit I missed his code but any how he said as time advances the changes increases until it becomes a mathematical certainty that man kind will cause a catastrophic disaster.
When I was young I found this myself. This is how I put it. That since the dawn of man every terrible thing that could be done, man has done. Now we have the power to destroy the earth and it is just a matter of time before some one does it.
I have found some hope and will dare to disagree with one of the smartest men in the world, sort of. It is not a mathematical certainty. The hope that Hawking alluded to also in another statement is if we advance as a race and people stop our barbaric action there is hope.
Perhaps the work of helping one person to learn to be a better person will cause him to help two more people not to mention his children and family and this type of thing mathematically increase from 2 to 4 to 8 to 16 to eventually the whole human race. We could as a race stop the horrible crimes that seem to be common place in the world today and in the past. This does also involve us supporting, as a race the right leaders and get men of honor and the altruistic in power. That way these leaders can back the right people and influence the population in a caring way. If we had our saints in power and those who may think of things like, what would Christ do then we may have hope yet.
But to put the corrupt and cold hearted in power will only result in eventually an evil man getting in power that will destroy the world for kicks. That is a mathematical certainty not to mention other scenarios. Even if there are more factors than can accurately be forecasted when it becomes a mathematical certainty if we stay on a path that we have been on we are doomed. But I do think there is hope.
It is empirically speaking possible that some people are just evil and not that way because of circumstances and because of what they are taught. But if we end the circumstances to prevent people from wanting to do evil by providing the basic needs for people to survive and teach people the wisdom and rewards of being good then those who may just be down right evil would be easy to find and stop because they would stick out.
There is hope though for the survival of the human race through love and forgiveness and saving the world one person at a time. But I can say it is not through slavery or antiquated systems like feudalism. Many try and to make it seem to be a problem with various institution when the problem is really with people in institutions and just a human fault.
It is through equality freedom and love we will be saved. Not freedom to do what ever you like. But freedom to do what you like as long as it does not directly harm someone else. Not equality as in we have equal talents but equality in that we are of equal importance. Not love of self only but love of self equally with love of all. This is the hope of the human race that the prophets have taught and died to promote. Love is the way.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 3/19/2007 9:24:23 AM | Leif: thanks for your clarification. In order to stay focused, I cut and pasted the question: "Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany?" I said that yes, because fascism is specific to capitalism, the potential of sliding into it is possible. And as you are the mot developed country, the chances of it happening are the greatest. I and many others have recoiled in the horror of the recent spate of disgusting practices--the war in Iraq, illegal wire tapping, Abu Gharaib (sp?), Gitmo, etc. On another level, it doesn't surprise me at all (and I am not being insensitive)--capitalism is a coercive dictatorial system, and it periodically shows this character, this being one of them. I am totally stunned that a majority of Americans believe that there were links between Saddam Hussein and Al Quaeda, when Bush himself has denied that there are any links. What I am trying to say here is that a lot of the premises for these practices are antithetical to American democratic values, and yet the masses are buying into it. So if the masses can be swayed by some rather iffy propaganda, fascism and all its associated horrors are certainly with in the realm of possibility.
cheers
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