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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 4/21/2007 4:12:06 PM | This is the sort of talk people should be careful of.
Your president was recently quoted as stating that his citizens don't have the right to think for themselves ........ unless they agree with him.
This is very unhelpful. No, he didn’t. I’m sure he thinks it, but he didn’t say it. I’m as big a Bush-basher as they come but you are using a foolish tactic here. This is something heavily employed by the far-right, just SAY something is so with conviction and a large segment of dip-shits will assume it’s so. It only works, however, if they are already inclined to accept what you say as gospel regardless of facts. It accomplishes nothing and detracts from legitimate arguments.
Used examples of a few crazies in some ethnicity to justify attacks upon the entire community. Then use that conflict to solidify the nation and keep them too busy to look at and address the actual problems in that society. Germany chose Jews, America chose Muslims.
Again, NOT so. Nothing remotely close has happened in the U.S. It is the Muslim world that puts contracts out on authors for books they don’t like, riots over cartoons, and threatens to chop people’s heads off for saying they’re violent.
In taking a blanket “anti-America” stance like this you ignore similar and worse behavior elsewhere because you want to be as “black & white, good-guys vs. bad guys as Bush himself. It a sign of an inferior mind at work and good for nothing. You’re propping your ego up with an\ visceral assumption of self-superiority over an arbitrary grouping of people. Much like the Nazis did to the Jews...
We must be careful in our finger pointing, there are mirrors everywhere. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 4/21/2007 5:01:22 PM |
Your president was recently quoted as stating that his citizens don't have the right to think for themselves ........ unless they agree with him. This is very unhelpful. No, he didn’t.
It was a paraphrase but yes he did actually express that sentiment in his response to Colin Powell.
And for detractors of the state, they could well find themselves in a situation where "Bush's bill would also allow alleged enemy combatants to be convicted by military commissions relying on classified information not shared with the suspects. The McCain-backed measure would make the exclusion of classified information more difficult, and it states in general terms that defendants have the right to examine and respond to any evidence directly related to guilt or innocence.
Hmmm charged and held indefinately with no evidence presented and no access to any manufactured evidence so as to be albe to contradict it and offer your own evidence that the claims made by the state are false? That sounds very much like measures instituted by the fascist state of 60 years ago.
Bush’s proposal would “liberalize the definition of what is torture” by amending the War Crimes Act to “permit use of hypothermia, threats of violence to the detainee and his family, stress positions, ‘long-time standing,’ prolonged sleep deprivation, and possibly waterboarding.”
In his letter, Powell writes, “The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism. To redefine Common Article 3 would add to those doubts. Furthermore, it would put our own troops at risk.
Sorry but it is high time that redneck president faced his own Nuremburg. That isn't anti-America, it is "anti-American leadership". Besides it's not like he is president because he got the most votes or anything
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 4/21/2007 5:12:46 PM |
Sorry but it is high time that redneck president faced his own Nuremburg. That isn't anti-America, it is "anti-American leadership". Besides it's not like he is president because he got the most votes or anything
On this point you will get no argument from me. The thing that sickens me so much about the democrats is that if they were truly interested in “getting the country back on course” (seems a popular one) then George & company would all be wearing orange jump suits right now.
As it stands, it appears they just wanted their turn at the lobbyist banquet. The only possibility for the U.S. to ever earn back any credibility with the international community is to step up and hold these people accountable. Unlikely, but who knows... | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 4/21/2007 8:46:21 PM | Obviously this is not a forum for hashing-out a detailed political system so you are baiting here but I will make a few fine points:
starvartist yeah you are right that I was baiting. I either expected to get unpractical response of some crazy political system that is proven to fail or just stupid or get an intelligent response that made some sense. I was delighted that you actually showed that you have a good mind. A little disappointed that you present nothing new to me but those were reasonable reforms to the current political system.
I know well about the corruption you speak about and how hard it is for a man of honor to get into any position of top authority in the government or business. There actually are two types of corrupt people I am aware of. One is the clique type that will do anything to get more control of resources, services or people. Theft, lies and murder are fair game to these types.
On the history channel they explain how Joe Kennedy was tied into the Italian Mafia but merely supplied the money and let the mob do the dirty work. It is true when a good man gets any type power that these types use their billion of dollars of resources and all their man power in the packs they run in to keep the good man from being effective in taking any of their power away.
They use their resources to infiltrate the government and law enforcement agencies. Hoover himself who was the first top dog in the FBI was black mailed by the Italian Mafia because they had a picture of Hoover prancing around in a woman’s dress.
The other type of corrupt people are those who see these evil types and feel they are self righteous and need to do whatever it takes to stop these people. So they feel the ends justifies the means and end up persecuting innocent people and taking away our God given rights in their pursuit of judgment to end all of what they perceive to be evil on the earth. Pretty soon innocent people are entrapped, tortured, killed and reputation unfairly destroyed all because these types think they are holier than God. These two type often to blend and merge.
I agree that that perhaps another thread about political reform may be in order but I do feel that if you are going to bring up about how bad things are getting and how bad they could get it is appropriate to bring up solutions. My thing is below
One: there need to be some sort of constitutional amendment that protects individual rights as long as you don’t directly harm others. Many laws that are taking away our rights are put in place under an excuse of corporate good as in what is good for the many and screw the individuals and to protect people from them selves.
What is resulting is every aspect of our lives is being controlled and regulated by government. Bottom line if I want to smoke a joint, not wear a seat belt, or even say jollyette in Joliet IL(yes that is illegal) then dang it, it is none of your dang business. But if I rob you or commit any form of violence then you have every right to want protection.
Two: involves what I said before. Legalize drugs. Prohibition has proven to be a failure since drug usage increased drastically since it was passed. All it has done is made it so these corrupt cold blooded killers who use to be to bit punks now have as much power as any king, Bill gates or president. It is not the top dog who is making the billion and organizes all this drug trafficking that goes to jail. It is some poor smuck who is easily replaced to carry the operation on.
Three: you mentioned about the court system and even though it was an improvement when it was first practiced it needs to go to another evolution. Personally I came up with a possible solution. Have a jury of your peers but also have another professional jury. Have various checks and balances to keep them honest. To get a conviction a jury of your peers and a separate jury of professionals would have to say guilty. That way lawyers would have to present real cases to prove guilt instead of just appealing to the ignorance of the masses like today.
Fourth: but not least I have some theories but no definite solutions. There will always be a need for some people to have control of large amounts of resources so they can be used to build factories and such things that a few can not make. But the problem is often the wrong people get control of these resources and they get paid much more than they are worth for the contribution they do. Heck most do little except socialize and hire people to use the resources.
The question is how do you get the resources out of these rich as***les hands and into brilliant people who are well educated, wise and men of honor that care about individuals they don’t know. That is who should be in control of these resources and not some stupid creep that just happen to be born into the right family or been at the right place at the right time or had some talent but could care less about anybody but themselves.
Perhaps you are right and a violent revolution is the only answer but I don’t think so. The problem is there are large groups of men and woman who care nothing about right or wrong and only care about them selves. You see them every where. They are the ones who cut you off on the high way or cut in front of you in line or stab you in the back at work while pretending to be your friend. I think no matter what system you create they will find ways to gather in their packs and gain authority and power. It is that constant battle between good and evil and all points in between.
That is why I say you need to save the world one person at a time. If we can bring more of the creeps into our camp than the creeps bring into our camp eventually we have a hope of peace on earth. Other wise we just have circles and waves of good and evil through out the human race.
Besides what you brought up could be done through reform and peaceful means. You say it can’t be done and perhaps you are right but perhaps it just will take another couple of hundred years.
But before you ask me to kill and die and have my friend, children and siblings to kill and die in some revolution I feel that every peaceful means need to be exhausted. You need to show me that the ones who will take control will do the right thing and that it will be worth such a sacrifice. But honestly most of the right people I hear seem to suggest peaceful reform. You say it can’t be done but look what happen in India and what Gandhi did. Now that dude knew how to lead a revolution
PS. Don't think they are so organized and in control in the other camp. They aren't, they just want you to think they are
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 4/27/2007 6:28:16 AM | Today I heard on public radio that a high school student was charged with disorderly conduct for an English assignment he wrote in a creative writing assignment. Apparently he wrote what many would interpret disturbing and his teacher handed it over to the police who responded by labeling him a criminal and charging him with a crime for what he wrote. I can just imagine what these people would have done with Edgar Allan Poe. Ozzy, watch out, your next. Let the witch hunt begin.
The control freaks and conformist have come out in force after Virgin Tech shooting saying that there were signs that the kid was going to do that; That some thing should have been done before the shooting, That the authorities mishandled the case and statements of how the authorities would have to live with their bad decisions for the rest of their lives as if they did the shooting themselves. There were even statements that he should have been kicked out of school for having “strange” behavior as if that would have stopped him.
In hind site perhaps people can better learn how to deal with violence on campus but folks the authorities were not unreasonable for their decisions and actions. The only one to blame for those shootings was that little punk that went out and murdered those people. So how about we leave those poor people alone and let them heal from their wounds instead of exploiting it for your own political agenda.
Remember how the preppies were at school. How they messed with everyone outside their group, made fun of everyone who was different, thought they were better than everyone and thought they should have more rights than everyone else. Now these same people are getting in positions of authorities where they can pass laws and make rules to do what they did to us in High School. Now they are making rules to mess with everyone who is “strange”. Now every troubled youth and creative genius in the country is suspect. Now not just our actions but they want the system to judge and regulate our behavior.
Every few years out of the millions of people in this country, one will come out and kill a bunch of people, from Charles Mansion to the Oklahoma bomber to this sick twisted kid recently. It can’t be stopped. That is life. The point is not that it happens but that out of the millions of people that it happens so rarely. In Africa’s Libya, I hear it is common place for people to be gunned down in the street. So don’t let these people that are scared of everything they don’t understand terrorize you. Realize that relatively speaking you are safe in this country. This is life and part of life is that there are dangers but don’t walk around scared of what is rare.
There are hundred of thousands or more of troubled people and creative geniuses who seem strange to many. So is it right to harass hundreds of thousands of people because of the actions of one. Besides do we all have to lose our freedom because of this? One more thing, they are talking about notifying parents. These are adults people and besides once they start to tell others about people who go to mental help, you can be sure that it won’t stop with parents. The next thing you know all authorities will know about it. What will result is people will be scared to get help because they are afraid they will get in trouble with love ones and authorities.
People talk about how some of these billionaires are taking our freedom away. But I think at this point they are secondary to these preppy types that want special rights and to screw with everyone different than them, just like in High school. Yeah the billionaires use their resources to make a propaganda machine to manipulate the masses and pay off people but factions of the masses in the end are the ones that are lobbying to take our freedom away and control every aspect of our lives.
Just watch how this unfolds. The yuppies or should I say professionals will come out in force and campaign to do some thing about these “strange” people. Then the various authorities will succumb to these busy bodies pressure and a lot of innocent people lives will be hurt. Then the left will come out and protest it. But in the end some battles will be lost, more freedoms will be lost and lives will be destroyed. When a mad dog kills innocent people it is so bad. But when the right destroys innocent people lives all you hear is excuses and why it had to be done.
In protest to this campaign to mess with my different (“strange”) brother and sisters, I would like to say death to all and to all a good night. Oh my God they would say. He talked about killing everyone. Kick him out of college and put him in a mental institution. He scares me. But what the poem really means is that we all will die and may you all go to heaven, all a good night.
But more in spirit of protest I would like to say a joke I heard as a child. What is sicker than a truck full of dead babies? A live one on the bottom eating his way out. Now you guys can come after me and put me away for what I said. Who really are the sick ones?
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/6/2007 4:00:44 PM | Good debate.
Thanks to rks58 for shedding light on what fascism (as opposed to Nazism) actually is .
At the core of both kinds of dictatorship is the ABSENCE OF THE RULE OF LAW. As any student of political science learns, the rule of law is even more important for a free society than democracy, as the latter depends on the former, and not vice versa.
The current US government is subverting the rule of law in many ways (…manipulated elections in Florida … Patriot Act … Enron … etc. etc.). Bush is a fascist, but the USA are a long way from being a fascist dictatorship, despite some worrying tendencies. And I don’t just hope, I am also convinced that the USA will stop purusing the current politics of fear and hate after the next presidential elections.
Even so, many Europeans (like me) are amazed how tame and lame American reactions are to the erosion of liberties. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/6/2007 5:03:04 PM | I am sure that citizens of Germany who supported their government
didn't believe that they were backing an evil empire.
It is my fear about my country that people are forgetting that true
patriotism is wanting your country to change and become something
better than it currently is. To never be content that we are in a good place as
a country, to always be looking to the next horizon and deciding how to get there.
But the voices of change are yelled down and are called unamerican and
detrimental. If we don't change, we will not survive as a country. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/9/2007 8:47:54 PM | "Even so, many Europeans (like me) are amazed how tame and lame American reactions are to the erosion of liberties."
Actually that is just a half truth. There are plenty of Americans concerned about the present political state in this country. Most of the Europeans are not aware of it, I suspect because most of what you hear about us is through the media which has a bias. Just go out and talk to Americans and you will hear far from tame reactions. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that no one hears about. Basically the press down plays the movement, as I have heard it called. For instant over a decade ago there was a riot in down town Chicago that involved the counter culture and protest that was not even covered by the press the next day.
"the rule of law is even more important for a free society than democracy, as the latter depends on the former, and not vice versa."
I agree that there needs to be law to protect citizens from other citizens who would hurt people and their property. Not just Dictatorships, but other oppressive governments have no law when it applies to those in authority except their right to do what they want to maintain their power. There are much more oppressive laws for the masses though.
It seems to me that what is meant by "a free society" in political science is the freedom of one group/s to pass laws to take freedoms away from other group/s and individuals when the group whose freedom are being suppressed are doing nothing to anyone but them selves.
To put it in slang the straight people just want to mess with the partiers. I am not talking the thieves or violent people. I am just talking the sub culture that celebrates life through individualistic expression as long as it harms no one besides maybe them selves.
People talk about freedom but what they really mean is free as long as you live like I do. I have never lived in a free society. With out fear of attack from those in authority I can’t smoke a joint, I can’t drive without a seat belt, I can’t walk down the street in the nude, I can’t sell goods on the street, I am too poor to buy the licenses to sell my hand crafted jewelry legally, I can’t take a piss in the woods in a park, I can’t go to a pubic park after dark and on and on and on. None of these actions is harming anyone but I am not allowed to do any of these actions. The bottom line I have never been a free man in this country. Freedom is merely a sales pitch given by politicians and political science majors.
I have been in subcultures though where people are free. Just go to a Grateful Dead lot some time. The establishment likes to label these cultures hippies and such. There is reason it is called counter culture. That is because it is not a deviant counter culture as in deviate from moral behavior. They all promote loving your fellow man like brother and sisters, freedom and individualistic behavior.
But bottom line is, people could smoke a joint and walk around nude without fear of harm from people and the worse they might get for driving without a seat belt is nagged at. So knowing the difference, I like to dream when all people could live free and be free from their own ignorance about what is right and wrong.
But I do agree that democracy is over rated. As Churchill said democracy is the worse form of government except all the other forms tried. The problem with democracies is what you have is the average man decides law and the exceptional that would be far more qualified is suppressed.
The USA was not founded to be a democracy, but a Republic. The basic Idea is the educated rules but democracy as well as checks and balances keeps the educated from going to far. Democracies only work as well as the awareness and education of the masses.
Democracy can be a horrible thing. The Salem witch hunts and burning witches at the stake were all results of democracy in action. That is why I think Democracy needs to be checked and balanced with law protecting individual right as long as the individual does not threaten harm to other people or property. Until that day, majorities will suppress minorities and special interest groups will destroy innocent people’s lives. And by the way this is not just an American thing. You Europeans have your stuff to.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/11/2007 9:48:57 PM | | Nazi translates as "National Socialism." The term "national socialism" (fascism) includes as its content economic isolation and subordination of the individual interest to the national interest. It is distinct from classical socialism primarily in that it maintains some veneer of private property. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/16/2007 2:23:06 PM | See the indy film: Estado de miedo /State of Fear.
The US might well not be in danger of becoming Nazi Germany-who knows whether or not it will be so - but it could be on the point of becoming Peru.
Fujimori & Shining Path = Bush & Al Quaeda
There's probably only one way to stop the US from becoming a Nazi Germany or a Rwanda or a Cambodia ... you've (yeah, you and me) have got to stand up and fight against it.
When citizens accept events like Abu Ghraib without hitting the streets, demanding that their leaders are held accountable, then they will instead have the honour of watching tradegy unfold.
The worst of it is, like here in Deutschland, they will only be able to say: er... I didn't know. I would have done something, honestly.
"I" didn't do it.
The world is us, we are the world.
To quote the bible which I try not to do, being non Christian, love thy neighbour. Do onto others and you'd have them do to you.
Is it really that difficult? | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/16/2007 4:56:41 PM | Abu Ghraib is an isolated incident. If the whole military acted like that then I would march. You dont see the U.S. government posting videos of G.I.s beheading "ragheads" in retribution. Historically our treatment of foreign POWs is among the best in the world.
Personal opinion;
$ from lobbyists and the ACLU are the two biggest eroders of American democracy.
Half of you right now are looking up links where the ACLU has defended someone who we would all agree had his/her rights violated. I wouldnt disagree with most of those links.
The clincher is this; Whos interpretation of civil rights does the ACLU act on?
Cuel and unusual punishment. How many of you would like to see temporary sterilization of child molesters, rapists, murders? They prove themselves reformed and they get unsterilized. Most everyone I talk to ( liberal or conservative) agrees with this idea. But they all say the same thing; the ACLU wont let it happen.
So whose def of cruel and unusual does the ACLU stand for? Ours or its?
The removal of crosses from public buildings. In those cases no one, except the ACLU, cried foul.
If the ACLU defends your rights its only by coincidence. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/16/2007 6:21:06 PM | "Also, search for articles that are in your field of expertise. They have a keyword search"
Actually social and political philosophy is not exactly out of my field of expertise as if that is what one needed to discuss politics and get involved in political discussion. That is unless you define expertise as someone with a doctorate in politics/sociality and/or a professional politician.
But you got me I am not exactly an average Joe blow. Well I am sort of because I don’t take the enormous time it would take to keep up with all the political affairs around the world. I just listen to public radio and an occasional documentary like many of us.
But my credentials, since you challenged me, is I have taken a few political and social science classes, read numerous books and articles on the subject and spent countless hours and a three decades contemplating various political, social and economic systems/influences and what may be an evolution to improve individuals lives. I spent much of my twenties as a political activist in various causes and leftist organizations/”nonorganizations” and talked to countless experts on the various related subjects while I was directly involved. I also spent my twenties traveling around the country and being involved in various subcultures to find out what was going on in this country first hand as well as a “search for wisdom”. I also ran in some circles in my past that was involved in some politically and economically powerful people. I may not have a doctorate in political science or sociality but I would not say I am ignorant on the subject.
My focus is not on such things as what is the text book definition of Nazism or is Ronald Regan really involved in Drug trafficking like Joe Kennedy was. Some things are interesting like a letter where Benjamin Franklin said referring to some hemp seed he sent to a friend from France “May this seed grow in your field as well as it will smoke in your pipe.” Also I see the value in historians discussing how the invention of the gun changed the world or how the industrial revolution resulted in population growth. But it was not a main interest of mine in this field.
My focus is number one what political and social changes may result in positive effects for the average citizen. Number two my focus is how positive social change may be brought about. Lastly and probably more importantly how can I influence people to think on their own and come up with original ideas instead of just spouting out what others say.
I applaud you people who spend enormous time keeping track of what the corrupt political, economics and social influences in society are doing and involving yourself in challenging power structures that hurt the common man. But honestly most of us have families to raise, jobs to go to, skills to improve and don’t have hours every day that are required to keep up with all the negative affairs going on in the world.
That does not mean that we don’t dedicate some of our time on studying current affairs. It also does not mean we don’t have a right to express our opinion or discuss current affairs. So to be frank I think it is wrong to tell people to stay out of politics and express our political view just because it may not be our field of expertise.
As a matter of fact one of the problems is that so many people will not get involved in politics so that whole segments of the population are not represented in the political arena. For instance if all the people who have indulged in intoxicants started voting for people who supported saner and more compassionate ways of dealing with drug problems and stop voting for republicans and democrats alike who support laws to destroy these peoples lives then we would start seeing more third party candidates get into office and see a shift in political stances from the two corrupt parties.
But I don’t need to keep up on what is the latest lie of Bush to know about certain negative political forces in this country and express my views which I think are of value in the subject. Also, I don’t need to keep up with a good work like factcheck.org to know that that there are positive forces out there as well as feel I should not contribute my small part, in my way because others are doing more in that arena than me. I also don’t have to blindly accept what the leaders in various causes I support do and say.
In my philosophy of logic class I heard about a basic fallacy commonly used in logic. Instead of challenging a person’s argument you challenge the person as if that makes what the person said wrong. One of the ways this is done is what is called an appeal to authority, which is to say that because a person is an authority that makes him right. Also carried further, some ones argument is not valid because they are not an authority. But honestly I would like to hear everyone’s views on a subject in an open forum so that false concepts and beliefs can be challenged and truth can be brought to light.
So please if you are such an expert I would love to hear your opinions supported with fact instead of using your knowledge of a subject to keep others from expressing their views and insight on the subject. Let’s try not to be intellectual snobs and keep others from participating in an open forum. Another thing that keeps a democracy strong is participation. Other wise we might as well as go back to the days of kings and Lords and all us pheasants without expertise, follow your rule and kiss your holy feet that have stepped in the holy cow dung, NOT.
Oh yes if I misinterpreted what you said please let me know. But it was a cool platform to express a certain view about what I perceive as misconceptions and problems about various political influences in American Society. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/17/2007 1:17:29 AM | I understand the time constraints. Thats why I say focus on your area of expertise. Then ask a friend or two whose expertise is different than yours.
Usually the lies and distortions are very basic anyways. If you know who is consistently lying and who isnt then you have taken care of the basics. The honest ones are more likely to actually try and make a difference. It doesnt have to be complicated. Just vote on your interests and nothing else. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/17/2007 10:43:11 AM | “How many of you would like to see temporary sterilization of child molesters, rapists, murders?”
Actually I doubt that such a measure would get past the Supreme Court. I am not fond of every thing about the ACLU but I would say they can’t be solely blamed for erosion of American democracy. Democracy needs to be checked or balance also or the next thing you know is lynch mobs becomes acceptable practice.
I believe it is more of an example of how special interest groups erode our freedoms, like kids praying in schools. They think of their special interest and that becomes all important at the expense of ever thing.
It becomes an, us and them scenario. All the special interest group does is look out for its cause and/or group of people at the expense of all else. So we have things happen like MAD marches against Carter for wanting to decriminalize marijuana and he backs off because he does not want to lose votes. So there is probably a majority that wants pot decriminalized. That majority won’t take votes away for voting for not passing decriminalization but a minority will take their votes away.
What it creates is people are afraid to make any changes that may be to the benefit of individual freedom because some group will rally up and the politicians need their votes. Also each group spends all its time getting laws passed and what results is this monster of never ending laws that restricts our individual freedoms. Now there are so many laws on the books that every law enforcement agency can use the laws to harass who ever they want because they can find some law as an excuse to accuse some one of a crime. Also the rich can use their resources the study these never ending laws to do what ever they like.
That is one reason I am concern about us become AS BAD AS Nazi Germany in the future. Not as an immediate thing so much though there a bit of a concern with our dictator George Bush. That the slow erosion of civil liberties over generations and people just getting use to it that after hundreds of years, that all freedoms we have gained will be loss.
That is why I think there needs to be some constitutional amendment that protects individual freedoms as long as one does not threaten others person or property. But I suspect American Democracy would never stand for it because majorities love to suppress minorities. Often the ignorance of the masses rules. There also needs to be some sort of limit on how many laws can be passed so we don’t create this never ending growing monster of law.
Personally I think all Murders and Child molester should be thrown away and never let out until they are dead. They have proven unfit to live among “free” people and even if they reform society owes it to the victims and friends and family of victims to give the worse punishment reasonable.
I have no problem with killing a cold blooded murder or child molester. The only reason I do not support executions is that any system of man is fallible. Some person will look guilty and really be either set up or just plain innocent. Even if it is one out of a hundred innocent people killed that is one too many. That one innocent person’s murder makes the system guilty of cold blooded murder and guilty and deserving of its own punishment of execution.
But American law enforcement has stopped being any thing about justice and is only about what the police and prosecutors can do. They don’t care about guilt. They only care about how many arrest and prosecutions they can make stick so they can further their career. A fallible system that gives them as much power as they can jockey makes it that much easier to cover up their mistakes and further their career and get funding from the public. “So some poor innocent smuck got fried on the electric chair. I got my promotion with a raise Martha.” The prosecutor and arresting officer says. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/17/2007 12:13:06 PM | It appears to be headed that way.
It's not much of a stretch....ultra nationalism...attitude of superiority towards all other nations and people....militaristic...a sense of entitlement to having it's own way with the world....anyone not getting with the program dismissed as unpatriotic...or worse...lotsa control freaks in uniforms with guns and badges trying to enforce " group think"....heavy on the propaganda....what can't be taken through negotiation, will be taken by force...constant portrayal of itself as victim, thereby creating the justification for the victimization of others, all in the name of self-defense, of course!
It's all in the attitude...is it not?
Narcissistic if nothing else.
Lot's of Germans opposed the Nazi's....were dismissed as kooks and idiots by those who "knew what was right".
Guess it's all a matter of degree....there is a line somewhere...stir in some goose-stepping...let it all simmer for awhile...
Not too hard to see a parallel.....
For the record...I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em... | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/17/2007 3:55:52 PM | leif
If it cant get past the Supreme Court then there is a disconnect. The Supreme Court is ( very indirectly) accountable to the people.
As for another amendment, no. We need to enforce the basic ideas of the Constution. Life liberty and the persuit of happiness. The framework is already there. More rules without public participation is another route to tyrany.
I agree with your sentiment regarding MAD. I feel the same about the ACLU. They should wait until someone crys foul and then jump to the rescue. So I guess I have to conclude that the public lack of understanding of theses organizations and lack of willingness to stand up to them is what is really killing us.
I think there is a SMALL number of molesters, rapists and murderers that can actually reform. Otherwise they remain inprisoned, exectuted or sterilized and monitered.
Regarding the death penalty. I support its use but only when theres hard evidence. That would prevent any mistaken exectuions.
I think your last paragraph about law enforcement is to generalized. Remember the Duke case? Yeah they were rich, but look at all the sides stacked against them. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/17/2007 4:03:17 PM | BTW
If you have the time to write what you have written then you have the time to check the authencitity of at least a couple of watchdog sites.
My Liberal Arts degree doesnt amount to much. But when someone says something distorted about the National Guard (good or bad) then Ill spot it since I was in for 8 years. Experience is the biggest qualifier. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/18/2007 10:16:33 AM | "I think there is a SMALL number of molesters, rapists and murderers that can actually reform."
I personally don't care about them or if they are reformed. If they killed my child I would want them put away for the rest of their life and would care less if they were reformed latter on. Personally I would kill the murderer of my child if I knew they did it and could. Then I would expect the system to put me away if I got caught. But I would want the system to put the killer away for life and not kill for me. So if a man kills my Brothers son I would want the killer put away for his life time for my brothers sack. The only reason I would not say execution is because of human fallibility and we can't afford to execute innocent people.
You said hard evidence to put them away and keep them. What hard evidence would you propose to create an infallible system that would determine a persons guilt beyond any doubt. Where is that line and what would prevent prosecutors, juries and judges from crossing that line.
Also, you said if they reform we should let them out. Not getting how this is a slap in the face of freinds and families of the victim, what infallible system do you propose that would determine that someone has reformed. All these things you propose, those in the system claim are true. But a few years ago some one in Illinois was on death row and they proved he was innocent. If they caught that mistake about a persons guilt when prosecutors do everything in their power to keep that person on death row even if he is proven innocent then I have to ask how many innocent people were killed that they did not catch were innocent on death row.
And lets not get into how many killers are let out that go right back to crime and even kill again. Between those points and consideration to the victim, that is why I say put them away and throw away the key unless evidence comes up proving their innocence.  | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/18/2007 11:59:53 AM |
Canada is the only "home of the free".
I didn't read the entire thread...too long. But, I think the quote above was on page one.
Since the Poster believes Canada is the only home of the free, then, please please please do everything in your power to start an underground grassroots movement to get the illegal immigrants to rush into your country. I hear it's far easier to gain citizenship in Canada than in the US anyway. You'd think more would be crossing the borders and flooding Canada. Yes?
Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany? The evidence says nope. I'm sitting here typing whatever I want to on an open forum. Opposing views are being posted. I wonder how many Middle Eastern lands allows this? Can't use Nazi Germany as an example since the 'internet' wasn't being used back then. But, the technology is now; therefore, one only needs to decipher which Countries allow the freedom of expression and which do not in order to appropriately compare to a Nazi Germany status. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/18/2007 8:26:56 PM | Do you think that a 19 year old that has sex with a 17 year old should be put to death? Technically thats child molestation. It is of course a different story for a child rapist/murderer.
Read my post again about the death peanalty. Hard evidence, yes execution, circumstantial, no exectuion. Hard evidence is a term used for something that is absolutely beyond doubt. Video footage, multiple eye witness accounts. Those are the only two I can think of.
I never said anything about requiring only hard evidence to determine guilt. Slow down when you read. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/19/2007 11:23:09 AM | First I said there should not be the death penalty and that the present law is unjust. One thing you called hard evidence is "Video footage, multiple eye witness accounts."
They once did a study where they had someone run in and snatch a purse from a teacher in front of an auditorium of hundreds of people. Later they took eye witness accounts of the incidence. What they found is virtually no one out of hundreds of people described the account right or the person. Some were so far off that some described a woman came in when it was a woman.
Besides the mistakes of multiple eye witness there are cases when many people think they saw one thing when it really was another. A possible scenario is many people see someone shot a person. But in realty the person could have shot over the persons head as a warning shot and someone behind him shot the person.
As far as a video that is pretty damning but in they above case it may appear that someone shot a person on video when it was someone else. Besides with modern technology, a video can be edited to make it look like any number of things.
Once again, out of the thousands people sent on death row there is bound to be one innocent person that hard evidence makes it appear the person is guilty when the person is not. That is why I am against the death penalty and believe that they should be locked up for life. To say other wise is to say men and woman can be infallible and that is just not the case. As far as the justice of the present law I already have stated that I see no justice to the law and merely a game law enforcement plays to further their career.
As far as life liberty and justice no the Constitution did not say that. The Declaration of Independence said that and as far as I know the declaration of independence does not count in a court of law except to declare the USA as a independent country. The constitution does guarantee some rights like freedom of speech and the right to freely travel but there is nothing to guarantee an individuals freedom as long as he does not threaten a person or property. Though this is largely accepted norm among a great many subcultures this is not the law of the land. I suggest you read the constitution and declaration of independence and get familiar with the basis of law that governs you.
As far as this fanatical belief that we should never amend the constitution as if it is the law of God I say that is apposed to what the founders intended. The bills of rights for instance were amendments made to pacify the masses so they would accept the constitution. Benjamin Franklin admitted that the constitution was not perfect but the best that could be achieved at that time.
So even though I agree that amendments should be carefully considered I think an amendment guaranteeing our individual freedom if we don’t threaten person or property would suppress tyranny and not support it. There is no such thing in the constitution. Often freedoms are taken from individual through law that has nothing to do with protecting citizen and their property from harm by others, citizen and non citizen alike. Often these laws are upheld in the courts as constitutional. Just you tell me how me smoking a joint is threatening harm to others or their property or hitch hiking.
Also to try to bring things in focus the thread is about could we become as bad as not are we like Nazi Germany. I know we are not as bad as Nazi Germany and it is unlikely we ever could get that bad. Largely because there are people out there that realize we are not invulnerable and threats like that are out there. There are people that give their life to protect us from such threats by looking for where are they developing and not through some blind acceptance that we are invulnerable and capable of no wrong. Pointing out how we are better than other cultures, also does not excuse our wrong in our culture. Only by confronting our wrong will we improve and to be honest I believe is truly patriotic to call ourselves to a higher standard.
It was mentioned about this free forum. Not that they are better as a whole but in those countries the poor can sell their goods in an open market on the streets with out being harassed while in this country they are not free to do so without paying a fee and more often than not getting a license that is more expense than the poor can afford.. So we do have a ways to go before we can call our self a free society. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/19/2007 1:41:00 PM |
Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany? The evidence says nope. I'm sitting here typing whatever I want to on an open forum. Opposing views are being posted. I wonder how many Middle Eastern lands allows this? Can't use Nazi Germany as an example since the 'internet' wasn't being used back then. But, the technology is now; therefore, one only needs to decipher which Countries allow the freedom of expression and which do not in order to appropriately compare to a Nazi Germany status.
Yup and you are typing it on a Canadian website, arguably a world-wide website, but your government does block access to websites. And if this site offerred online gambling good luck using it from the US since your governemnt decided for you that you don't know when enough is enough for yourself.
Or that you can now be locked away indefinately, with no charges being brought forward and no access to the "evidence" that placed you behind those bars in the first place. Phone-taps without a court order. You can't take shampoo or nail-clippers on an airplane anymore, does that make you safer. And best of all if you have the audacity to question these changes you get shouted down and branded "un-American"  for insisting on the very freedoms and representation that your country was founded on no less.
The best defense against a nanny-state that tramples individuals would be those with the nerve to question that state.
Nazi Germany is know to have eroded individual rights(see above), targetted mostly a few ethnicities/minorities for all of its ills to avoid accountability for the real cause of the problems plaguing that society (Iraqi's, Mexicans, liberals), and unprovoked agression on sovereign nations (See Iraq once again, Afghanistan was arguably "provoked" even if the US did support the Taliban for decades)
While you may not be "there" yet, if no one stands up you are well on your way. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 5/19/2007 4:04:28 PM | leif
We can spend all day spitting hairs about what is hard evidence. I stand by my opinion regarding its use. You brought up some good examples of how video can be fallable. As it is I would rely on people more qualified than myself and the judge to determine whether the evidence is hard.
I dont view the amentments as laws of God. I view more rules, laws, ect andour low voter participation as a dangerous trend.
I would never disagree with you about smoking a joint. Most others our age wouldnt. I think that sooner or later it will get legalized. Its more commonly used than 40 years ago and over time more and more people will come to the conclusion that its in the same ballpark as alcohol. Also when the baby boomers start to die off you will see less restrictive legislation. Its a pity that it has to be done that way.
If the majority disagrees with pot then you and I are a**ed out. Thats democracy, the public doesnt always agree with you.
What you would like to see with the amendment is already accomplished with the three branches of government. Not perfectly of course. | |
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