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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 1/19/2008 8:04:48 PM |
jrbogie:
Not even going to begin to bother with either post other than to ask this question. If the patriot act violates the constitution or in any way as unconstitutional, can someone explain to my why it is that not one section of it has been challenged on it's unconstitutionality and found to be so by the courts? With all of you spouting off about your constitutional rights having been violated, why haven't you or any of the millions of others that feel the way you do challenged even one part of the patriot act? Could it be that you have no case that could win in the supreme court or one of the federal district courts? Or why hasn't your illustrious leader Ron Paul himself brought forth a legal challenge? Surely he would gain many political points if a ruling could be won in his favor. Why is that? Make your case to the courts. How far do you think you'll get here?
Look at that, they cant spy on americans anymore without the fisa court being involved :) That almost sounds constitutional.
Thats the nice thing about these "acts" being so broadly written to allow them to violate our rights.
Patriotic judges shoot em down.
Time to impeach bush maybe?
NSA eavesdropping program ruled unconstitutional
Administration appeals; attorney general says 'program is lawful'
Thursday, August 17, 2006; Posted: 6:03 p.m. EDT (22:03 GMT)
YOUR E-MAIL ALERTS
American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)
Justice and Rights
Civil Rights
National Security Agency (NSA)
(CNN) -- A federal judge on Thursday ruled that the U.S. government's domestic eavesdropping program is unconstitutional and ordered it ended immediately.
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said the Bush Administration disagrees with the ruling and has appealed.
"We also believe very strongly that the program is lawful," he said in Washington, adding that the program is "reviewed periodically" by lawyers to determine its effectiveness and ensure lawfulness. (Watch Gonzales defend the constitutionality of the domestic spying program -- 1:50)
The administration secretly instituted the program after the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington. It gives the National Security Administration authorization to secretly conduct wiretaps without a court order.
In a statement from the White House, Press Secretary Tony Snow said, "The program is carefully administered and targets only international phone calls coming into or out of the United States where one of the parties on the call is a suspected al Qaeda or affiliated terrorist.
"The whole point is to detect and prevent terrorist attacks before they can be carried out," the statement said.
In a 44-page memorandum and order, U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor struck down the NSA program, which she said violates the rights to free speech and privacy.
The defendants "are permanently enjoined from directly or indirectly utilizing the Terrorist Surveillance Program in any way, including, but not limited to, conducting warrantless wiretaps of telephone and Internet communications, in contravention of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and Title III," she wrote.
She declared that the program "violates the separation of powers doctrine, the Administrative Procedures Act, the First and Fourth amendments to the United States Constitution, the FISA and Title III."
Her ruling went on to say that "the president of the United States ... has undisputedly violated the Fourth in failing to procure judicial orders."
The lawsuit, filed January 17 by civil rights organizations, lawyers, journalists and educators, "challenges the constitutionality of a secret government program to intercept vast quantities of the international telephone and Internet communications of innocent Americans without court approval."
The complaint was filed in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan, based in Detroit. Plaintiffs included branches of the American Civil Liberties Union, the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, the Washington and Detroit branches of the Council on American-Islamic Relations and Greenpeace.
The judge in the case, Taylor, 75, was appointed by President Carter and has been on the Eastern District of Michigan bench since 1979. She is one of the first African-American women to sit on a federal court.
Program under scrutiny
Electronic surveillance programs run by the NSA have been under fire since December, when The New York Times disclosed that the government was listening in -- without obtaining a court order -- on international phone calls involving people suspected of having ties to terrorists.
Some legal scholars said the program is an illegal and unwarranted intrusion on Americans' privacy. The Bush administration defended it as a necessary tool in the battle against terrorism.
Opinion polls suggest the U.S. public has been divided on the NSA program. A CNN poll conducted by Opinion Research Corp. on May 16-17 found that 50 percent of the respondents believe the program was "wrong," while 44 percent believe it was "right." The poll's margin of error was plus or minus 4.5 percent.
The plaintiffs alleged their communications with parties outside the country were being monitored by the NSA's wiretapping program. The complaint said the NSA's surveillance disrupts "the ability of the plaintiffs to talk with sources, locate witnesses, conduct scholarship and engage in advocacy."
On May 26, instead of responding to arguments attacking the legality of the NSA's eavesdropping program, the government filed for dismissal of the case. It cited the "U.S. military and state secrets privilege" and argued the government would not be able to defend the domestic spying program without disclosing classified information.
ACLU official calls ruling 'landmark victory'
"Today's ruling is a landmark victory against the abuse of power that has become the hallmark of the Bush administration," said Anthony D. Romero, the ACLU's executive director.
"Government spying on innocent Americans without any kind of warrant and without congressional approval runs counter to the very foundations of our democracy. We hope that Congress follows the lead of the court and demands that the president adhere to the rule of law."
Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat, said the ruling necessitated the need for the Bush administration "to work with the Congress to develop effective tools to defeat terrorists."
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tennessee, said he backs the government's appeal of the ruling.
"Terrorists are the real threat to our constitutional and democratic freedoms, not the law enforcement and intelligence tools used to keep America safe," Frist said in a statement.
"We need to strengthen, not weaken, our ability to foil terrorist plots before they can do us harm. I encourage swift appeal by the government and quick reversal of this unfortunate decision."
Republican Congressman Pete Hoekstra, chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, pointed to the alleged airplane plot that was disrupted last week. "It is disappointing that a judge would take it upon herself to disarm America during a time of war," he said in a statement.
In July, Sen. Arlen Specter, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said the White House had agreed to submit the program to the FISA court for review.
Specter, R-Pennsylvania, and the White House said they would support legislation that would consolidate about 30 lawsuits filed against the government, transferring them to the FISA court so there would be a single forum in which to litigate them.
But the legislation has not passed through the Judiciary Committee, let alone the Senate, and it may never be approved, as Democrats have raised objections to a number of its key components.
Specter was in India and not immediately available for comment on the ruling.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/17/domesticspying.lawsuit/index.html
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 1/29/2008 3:31:44 PM |
Making comparisons between the US and the Nazi regime in Germany is outrageous, inciteful & clearly irresponsible.
Now ?
As I argued, I don't think it's a fair comparison at all.
However, looking at the many paths that spread out across the future, and to what happened to Germany in that time period, I think it's a legitimate point of discussion - if the US wants to avoid that fate.
If the USA is to avoid a similar path, than I think it's a healthy debate. We are talking about two different nations, different people's, and different histories. It's a different age, with different motivations.
Humans however, remain the same.
Just look at a nation like Kenya. It was generally regarded as one of the friendliest places in Africa, one of the places where so many of the things wrong with Africa were not present. Visitors spoke of the great friendliness of the Kenyan people, and returned to experience it again .
Suddenly, it became a madhouse. Atrocities along the line of Rwanda occurred almost overnight. A great darkness has fallen across it's land, and it's people.
That's what possibly awaits us if we fail to discuss such topics before the light begins to dim.  | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 1/29/2008 6:38:03 PM | Making comparisons between the US and the Nazi regime in Germany is outrageous, inciteful & clearly irresponsible.
________
I think all conversation is good.
If you have the thought is it irresponsible?
Maybe we should look at history.
The Bush family was tied to Nazi Germany.
Strong ties, are you willing to ignore that? | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 1/29/2008 7:59:14 PM | veddiveddivixxe you stated "Making comparisons between the US and the Nazi regime in Germany is outrageous, inciteful & clearly irresponsible."
First of all, the question presented, as I have pointed in earlier post states could we become as bad, not are we like. Personally I see us going in a 1984 big brother direction more than old Nazi Germany. I see the major institutions controlling every thing we do including our personal choices and spying on our every action while keeping us distracted with consumerism and fear of outside threats.
As long as we do not look for threats within our society and we keep the population distracted then the threats to freedom in this country can get away with actions to suppress freedoms and oppress targeted citizens. That is fine if you are a mindless conformist and/or born in the wrong social class but for any one who doesn't conform, I see this society finding all sorts of ways to suppress/oppress nonconformist and outsiders to privileged subcultures, take God given rights away, and down right destroy some of us.
Also, veddiveddivixxe is your statement made from any educated decision about politics, sociology and history or are you just making a statement out of ignorance and a blind pride of your country. True patriotism does not come from a blind acceptance of authorities and the establishment. But it comes from an acceptance of what is; the good and the bad and calling your country to a better itself. If you have an educated opinion, I would like to hear it instead of this childish, you are wrong to ask a question and a bad person, type statement.
Many have by the way made educated comparisons between PreNazi Germany and the USA today. I suggest you read the thread before you criticize the entire content of the thread. The question presented does not say are we like Nazi Germany so does not suggest such. It suggests we are not as bad now but suggest possible comparisons between countries including but not exclusively Germany before they became AS BAD AS Nazi Germany.
On another note, I would like to state Bushes inaugural address was interesting. More often than not I saw half the room standing up and shouting and clapping while the other half remained sitting. It is a concern I have about how this country seems to be split in half.
The shame is that our leaders seem to exploit this fact. Instead of trying to bring the country together, leaders on both sides seem to get a faction of the population to take actions against other factions of the population when both factions consist of good people. A result is majorities and those with more resources and influence tend to oppress large populations of good people that have less.
A concern is if this unrest keeps building between the citizens that are oppressed and those oppressing, that a civil war could break out. The result I see could happen is that a collapse of society could result in a civil war and any number of unethical power mad leaders could rise to power.
I think it is awful naive and irresponsible and ego centric and quite frankly dangerous to think we are better than other people in the world and that we are invulnerable. People are people. If evil people could take control else where then it could happen here.
The US people are very aware. We do have a cultural advantage when it comes to believing in personal freedoms and fighting for such. Generally speaking the American people are on the look out for these evil people that want to take power. But it is by looking for these dangers presented by people within and without us that want to take us over, that we are able to defend our self from becoming as bad as Nazi Germany.
It is the evil and ignorant that do not want us to look for threats to our freedom and flaws in our system. We were founded on the principal that it is by participation by citizen in government and dispersing power that we can become a better nation. Other wise we might as well as stayed loyal subjects to the crown, like King George Bush. But I think we will make it past that threat to our national security, foolish spoiled rich boy Bush. Now what’s next?
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 1/30/2008 2:17:01 AM |
Making comparisons between the US and the Nazi regime in Germany is outrageous, inciteful & clearly irresponsible.
Clearly. While the conspiracy kooks fear the government, I want the government to protect me from the kooks. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 1/30/2008 4:24:32 AM | Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Sure... A lot of things have gone wrong in America. A lot of things ARE going wrong in America. And I guess a lot of things will keep on going wrong in America.
But that said. America is FAR from the Nazi regime. So let's just get that one into perspective right away! On the point of fascism, which I assume is what this rather LONG thread is all about. Well sure... There are telltale signs. No doubt about it. But there are telltale signs in Europe, Australia, Russia... But coming back to America, one should always try and understand that America could almost be described as a confederation of different "countries":
Those 50% that bother to vote and engage in the American political process. And the rest that seemingly don't want anything to do with American politics. When you then mix in a diverse racial spectrum. A diverse cultural spectrum and a very diverse, almost obscene, economic spectrum, you'll realise that it would be quite impossible for America to become some totalitarian society.
This is one of America's strengths in that it is sooo diverse that despite the dangers of fascism, America would probably have to go into a civil war before it comes anywhere near Hitler's Nazi Germany. And anyway, I have a belief that if America did start going down that road, you'd be surprised at how many unlikely folks will do anything to defend against it.
Hundreds of thousands of American military personnel were lost during World War II fighting fascism. It is inconceivable that America would wish to pay such a high price like that ever again. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 1/30/2008 9:29:26 AM | "Clearly. While the conspiracy kooks fear the government, I want the government to protect me from the kooks."
Clearly that’s right. Lets throw the "kooks" in jail, take their rights away, brand them for life with damaging marks on their record, and what ever action is deemed necessary. That way the narrow minded conformist control freaks can feel safe in their shallow ignorant stagnate world and talk about how free this country is because these actions are not taken against them. Hitler would be proud.
That’s right lets be free to suppress free thought with talk about how free this country is and if you don't agree, I am going to screw with you as well as call you names like a little child.
Was Public Television a bunch of Kooks when they showed pictures of J E Hoover, the first head of the FBI, prancing around in a woman’s dress and stated that the Italian Mafia used those pictures to black mail Hoover to get him to do their bidding. As a result Public Television showed a clip of Hoover before Congress stating that there was no Mafia in this country.
This same Hoover would get damaging information on members of US Congress and Senate and other powerful men by spying on them with his so called law enforcement officers. Next Hoover would tell these power men of this damaging information and then state what Hoover wanted the congressman and others to do. No there is never any conspiracies in American institutions. We all know what saints our leaders are. Yeah right.
How about a documentary on the History channel reveling information that had been declassified. Like when the FBI recruited ex Nazi officers after world war two to teach them how to sabotage undesirable institutions.
That was fine when they were going after the KKK but when the civil rights movement came along they used these same techniques they learn from Nazi officers including infiltrating the civil right organizations with spies who caused dissension among members, bugging their phones, sending threatening letters and sending slanderous letters to employers of Civil rights activist to get the activist fired.
Yeah we all know what kooks run the history channel and public radio because they expose truth that doesn’t agree with the kooks that promote far right false propaganda.
I apologize. I should not demean myself and lower myself to name calling that is not descriptive of the ignorant, inhibited and scared. I will admit fallibility. But no, we all know how infallible and invulnerable the Government is. Yeah right. All those corrupt people and institutions that history revels were in our government just went away and vanished in thin air.
The shame is that the ignorant extremes on both sides demean the wisdom of conservatism and liberalism. Please, can we stick to facts and intelligent opinions and keep the name calling to children. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 2/1/2008 4:16:01 AM | I have some problems with comparing the U.S. to the Fascists in the 1930's. The Fascists rose to power after about 20 years of extreme turbulence and social and economic distintigration in Europe, caused mainly by the First World War and its aftermath and the Great Depression. Germany in particular had a catastrophic economic collapse along with hyperinflation in the 1920's which wiped out the middle classes. This seriously undermined the democratic institutions in Germany and helped fuel the festering spirit of pretty nationalism and anti-Semitism which have been undercurrents in European history for a long time. What happened was in the political vacuum, demagogues who were intelligent political operators quickly exploited the situation to their own advantage to rise to power.
Now the problem I see in comparing the U.S. is that the U.S. has not suffered the same economic and social turbulence which allowed the Fascists to rise to power in the past 20 years. The Bush Administration has made some very stupid decisions in its Foreign Policy and I don't think will go down in history as a great Presidency, but the rule of law and the democratic institutions in the U.S. have not been critically undermined, nor has the economy of the U.S. undergone collapse. It is under a lot of pressure due to financial problems caused by ongoing deficits and the sub-prime crisis, but so far the conditions which allowed the fascists to rise in Europe are not being repeated now. I think it is more realistic and less hyperbole to say that the U.S. has simply had mediocre leadership in the past 8 years, who have not been able to rise to the challenges which face the country. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 2/1/2008 7:01:46 AM | A boat lands on a shoreline, ppl disembark, they clear land, build houses and expand, eventually they are numerous and call themselves a city. With the evolution of the city came its set of values and those values constituted the make up of its "citizens". Hence the city has guidelines that it lives by and in accordance too, these become laws that function in 'society" in the "city".
Thats fine and dandy
ON paper.
IF all the people think the same way...
but what happens if..
SOME PPL DONT THINK THAT WAY......... for instance..
what if some ppl want a more casual lifestyle that isnt so dependant on earning money. a 4 day work week, free hydro. Some money at the end of the month for even your small part in the city and a "society" that is based on minimalsm and leisure...
and what if, Currently opperating Society doesnt agree?
Now there is conflict in the City, especially if enough people want the same thing that is contrary to or in direct opposition to what the city has legally allowed.
Now we have criminals in the city....
At what point does the "city" become an oppressor? When it has a ton of criminals? or when it ceases to represent the beliefs of its citizens? even a minority of its citizens? or When it finds itself enforcing its minor laws with guns and jails? or When it stops growing to meet the needs of all its citizens, surely an impossible task without loosing the Cities Identity.... So do lives have to wait, idly by, while generations of "the City believers" die off before growth can begin in the morals and legalities of the "City" again?
At what point does the City become the Dictator?
When it builds jails according to a speculated amount of inmate populace?
When it carries guns and roams the streets looking for malcontents?
When it has made rules for no other reason than to grab money from its citizens?
When it becomes unbenevolent in its treatment of its protesting citizens? or even ignores the pressing issues of the time to spend more money and time on capitialistic endevours instead of humane endevours?
Does it really seem possible?
Rome fell
all "societies" or "cities" have fallen, some were outright slain, like the incas by the spanish, no offense.
Germany, rose and fell (because the government stopped the flow of cocaine to its "citizens". (civilians and non civilians)
USA is still blowing up the world with its "citizens". It sent its capitalistic opposition - the hippies to fight in viet nam by way of draft... and then napalmed everybody, the rest fled to canada, lives wasted, because of a "Cities" beliefs. Now american has completed its first full scale canadian census of all the people everywhere, which canadians were ordered to partake in or else be fined 500 dollars. That wasnt too long ago. Whens america coming to get its draft dodgers.... it all has to do with baby boomer inheritance money, but i digress...
The City.... as luring as it is dangerous!
Signs Signs Everywhere there's signs
Blocking up the scenery Breaking up my mind
Do this Don't do that Can't you read the sign
And the sign says "Anybody caught trespassing will be shot on sight"
So I jumped the fence and I yelled at the house
What gives you the right To put up a fence And keep me out
Or to keep Mother Nature in
CHORUS:
If God was here He'd tell it to your face Man You're some kind of sinner
And the sign says "No long hair freaky people need not apply"
So I put my hair under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine outstanding young man I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said "Imagine that Huh Me working for you"
CHORUS:
Oh Say now mister Can't you read
You got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't watch No You can't eat You ain't supposed to be here
And the sign says "You gotto have a membership card just to get inside" Huh
And the sign says "Everybody welcome Come in Kneel down and pray"
But then they passed around a plate at the end of it all
And I didn't have a penny to pay
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign
I said Thank you Lord for thinking about me I'm alive and doing fine | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 2/2/2008 1:50:31 AM | Canada is the only "home of the free". We are not having our rights taken away
Do some research on the North American Union, and your views will change.
Amerika (yeah, I spelled that way on purpose), Canada, and Mexico.
This is based from the EU.
Sad, but true.
Amero is going to become the new currency. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 2/2/2008 12:22:22 PM | Anybody not knowing about about the springing up of fusion centers can find information here at the ACLU Web site and don't forget to read their report about "What's Wrong With Fusion Centers" (you''ll even see where they are located:
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/gen/32966pub20071205.html
My advice, join the ACLU and participate in holding on to your constitutional rights. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 2/2/2008 5:58:52 PM | Naomi Wolf wrote an interesting piece about the steps that dictators use to shut down free societies. There's a blueprint, so to speak, and America has started down that path.
Hopefully, the next administration will restore some sanity and Americans will stop living in fear. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 2/3/2008 1:24:00 AM |
Well I am hoping to hear peoples input about this concern I have had. I am much more into spirituality than politics so I realize I may be off base. I do know I do not feel I live in a free country any more. As Benjamin Franklin put it, Those who would trade freedoms for security deserve neither and will lose both.
There is no hope for a nation that prides itself on the FIRE from Heaven devouring the heathen. Best selling the left behind BS, making a movie out of it and send MILLIONS of $$$ to those that profitsize on the the separatist elitist mentality of the emotionally, spiritually, physically AND monetarily bankrupt.
The book 1984 was written in like 46-48 (just a guess) but this man SAW.
In danger?
Not able to stop the downward tumble?
YES
Learn Chinese | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 2/3/2008 5:08:21 AM |
Wow. I'm "living in fear". Thanks for the heads-up...
After 9-11, the Bush administration used fear to pass legislation that have reduced Americans' freedoms. You may no longer be afraid of another 9-11 or the smoking gun that comes in the form of a mushroom cloud, but you still are living with the after-effects of that mindset. The question is: do Americans want to live in a free society with the risks that go with that or a police state that, while it may keep you safer, curtails the freedoms that define the USA? The latter is a victory for the enemies of the USA IMHO. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany *
Posted: 2/4/2008 7:02:52 PM | Poet has it backwards.
The fear mongers are the one's who want to curtail our freedoms by putting us under surveillance animals with and tagging us with the Real ID. The conspiracy theorists are the ones perpetrating the biggest inconceivable conspiracy againt the people who are sleeping ... wake up, poet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLFBUrHPmNM&feature=related | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 2/4/2008 7:29:21 PM | Read Sinclair Lewis's It can't happen here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can't_Happen_Here
Then read American Fascists by Chris Hedges
http://www.amazon.com/American-Fascists-Christian-Right-America/dp/0743284437
Then get chills down your spine and wake the hell up. It won't be Swastika's and Brownshirts running wild in American Cities but a made in the USA Fascism , my guess would be the Flag and the Cross.
Time to report to your local Anarchist collective and resist. | |
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