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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/17/2006 7:00:44 PM | | I agree that Bush is very much like Hitler. Spying, listening in on phone conversations, reading our emails. The system of checks and balances is eroding. The Republitards got the white house, the senate, the house of reps, and now they even have the supreme court. In Bushes warped mind its more important to bomb Iraq than it is to help New Orleans, or anyone else in this country. Bush is the most retarded excuse for a prezdunt we have ever had. He can't even say nuclear. He says nukyaler. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/17/2006 7:46:05 PM | Good quotes, magic.
And, Mussolini's own definition of Fascism: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."
Any signs of that happening, in the US?
Peace  | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/17/2006 7:51:17 PM | Closed Book:
---"And, Mussolini's own definition of Fascism: "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."
Any signs of that happening, in the US? "---
My God... it is not even possible to get a sensible response from you. By your definition, and that of Mussolini, virtually 100% of all states on the planet are Faschist. You are a lot smarter than you look! You agree with one of history's most inept dictators.  
Tasha  | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 54 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/17/2006 8:00:27 PM | You agree with one of history's most inept dictators.
When I suggested that the US wasn't turning into Nazi Germany but might become more like Mussolini's Italy I didn't even consider that point.
There is another common thread between the US gov't of today and a fascist state.
Leaders who make the Top 10 list for the most inept.
Thanks for pointing that out. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/17/2006 8:18:04 PM | RKS58,
I was actually speaking to "Closed-Book". But according to his view of Mussolini, the definition covers nearly every state on the planet. It is far too broad. At least Nazi Germany, continues to hold the status of the: most efficient state in history. In 1937, it had the largest economy in the World. During this entire time, it was still far more democratic than Italy.
According to you: there is a direct link between ANY state and a fascist state. I think you really should travel a bit... Belarus is a wonderful place to experiance fascism. How about France? Their internal security apperatus is very formidable. There you can experiance REAL fascism. Go and travel... you are deprived.
Tasha | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/17/2006 9:18:22 PM | Thank you for all the responses. It gives me hope that the fascist will never succeed in their attempts to take over this country when I hear well inform, intelligent people out there aware of their efforts. I am just an average Joe blow who listens to public radio and listens to the news occasionally. To those who are more informed than me I am glad for the efforts you make and hearing from you and thank you.
But I have thought of it and there is some thing that one person said that convinces me that we are in danger of becoming a fascist state more than anything.
What was said was “I want to feel safe again, if I have to give up some freedoms for this, then so be it! My peace of mind is worth it."
When I hear intelligent Americans talk of giving up their freedom for a false sense of security that convinces me that the fascist could definitely take over. It is fine that some people want to give up their freedom for security. That is their choice. The problem is they want to take my freedom away when I am not a threat to them or society. They do not have that right.
I will repeat what Benjamin Franklin said " Those who would trade freedoms for security deserve neither and will lose both.” | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/17/2006 9:55:40 PM | But according to his view of Mussolini, the definition covers nearly every state on the planet. It is far too broad.
Duh...every country has different levels of a lot of things. Countries have different levels of democracy. Countries have different levels of Socialism. Countries have different levels of Authoritarianism. Etc. etc. etc. But, I'm sure you already know all this, being so well travelled and all (P.S. I've gotten around a bit, myself).
Many countries, if their level of Authoritarianism (or unaccountability level) is high enough, would have some level of Fascism (corporate takeover of government), Communism (Government takeover of business), or Totalitarianism (1 person taking over everything). If their level of Authoritarianism is about centre (accountable)...they'd be some level of Socialist (accountable government, total socio-economic equality), Centrist (minimum socio-economic standards and accountable government), or Libertarian (laissez-faire economics and accountable government). If citizens are moving towards self rule...they'd be some level of Anarchist (society driven by direct democracy), Total Anarchy/Chaos (every man for himself), or Anarcho-Capitalists (society driven by capitalism).
So, yeah...Capitalist, Authoritarian leaning, countries likely do have some level of fascism. And, if your country seems to be heading more and more in that direction, you'll likely officially end up with a fascist state. If you're not moving in that direction, then no worries.
What do you think...is the US becoming more Authoritarian (less government accountabilty, more government control) and is Corporate involvement in government increasing (say more corporate lobby groups, more corporate "think tanks", more cronyism)?
Here's one of my favorite stories: A corporation gets hired by the military to do a multi-million dollar study on whether or not it would be benificial for the military to privatize (To the same corporation doing the study!) some of the jobs. And, surprise, the corporation came back and said, yes the military should privatize, a number of their jobs. So, a corporation has been paid, with US citizens' tax dollars, to tell the US military that they should take over some of the military's jobs, and be paid with US citizens' tax dollars. And, they do. Oh man...that's just blatantly retarded.
Peace | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 58 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/17/2006 10:09:18 PM |
According to you: there is a direct link between ANY state and a fascist state.
I don't recall saying that. Perhaps you can point it out to me. As I recall the only state I made reference to becoming a fascist state was the US. I won't bother repeating all my points here. Try going back to msg 11 and 42, it's all there.
I think you really should travel a bit... Belarus is a wonderful place to experiance fascism. How about France? Their internal security apperatus is very formidable. There you can experiance REAL fascism. Go and travel... you are deprived.
Actually I have travelled quite a bit, been to more countries than years you have been alive, lived in Europe for several years.
But hey, it was a nice try at an ad hominem argument (that's a logical argumentation term, in case you were wondering. It means "attack the messenger because you can't refute the argument").
Keep trying little missie, you'll get the hang of it eventually. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/18/2006 11:49:05 AM | But I have thought of it and there is some thing that one person said that convinces me that we are in danger of becoming a fascist state more than anything.
What was said was “I want to feel safe again, if I have to give up some freedoms for this, then so be it! My peace of mind is worth it." And the current administration achieves such a response from the people by posting terrorist alerts when there is no cause for it, when they encourage utility workers to spy on people in their own homes and report back what they have seen (happened in Ohio), etc.
When I hear intelligent Americans talk of giving up their freedom for a false sense of security that convinces me that the fascist could definitely take over. It is fine that some people want to give up their freedom for security. That is their choice. The problem is they want to take my freedom away when I am not a threat to them or society. They do not have that right. The current administration justifies taking away our freedom (civil rights) by keeping the general population in a constant state of panic over a threat that does not exist.
When one considers the propaganda that was used on this nation to justify invading Iraq and the success of using such propaganda ... is there any doubt in your mind how easy it is to spread still more propaganda to scare the masses of people into believing they are unsafe unless they give up their civil rights so they can supposedly be "better protected" from the "threat"?
That's how Hitler gained power ... convinced the people there was a threat (when in fact he was the true threat), put a few "ruthless" men in charge of the propaganda and the power to imprison the people who could be labeled dessenters and away we go!
My father-in-law lived that ... although he was not Jewish ... he did not go along with Hitler, did not join the Nazi party, had a hard time keeping his mouth shut and as a result barely escaped being put in a prison camp himself. In the small town he lived in at the time there was only one Jewish family. This was a peaceful family, pursuing a life in a small town, minding their own business, a threat to no one. On Crystalnacht, their business was demolished, their things were thrown into the street and burned and they were hauled off to a prison camp.
My father-in-law was good friends with them and just happened to be driving by as their things were being thrown into the street. He stopped and demanded to know what was going on. He was told to keep moving or he would be next!
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/18/2006 11:57:12 AM | It's funny, some time ago, I likened Bush to Hitler in many ways, not all. Holy buckets, the hate and threats that were spewed my way.
It's funny too, how many are beginning to see these things now, as time passes. | |
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nempho
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Joined: 7/18/2006
Msg: 61 | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/18/2006 12:08:45 PM | Liken \Lik"en\ (l[imac]k"'n), v. t. [imp. & p. p. Likened
(-'nd); p. pr. & vb. n. Likening.] [OE. liknen. See Like,
a.]
1. To allege, or think, to be like; to represent as like; to
compare; as, to liken life to a pilgrimage.
It's not quite the same thing as "is".
Peace | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/18/2006 1:06:13 PM | @violetskye ...
It's funny, some time ago, I likened Bush to Hitler in many ways, not all. Holy buckets, the hate and threats that were spewed my way.
It's funny too, how many are beginning to see these things now, as time passes.
I see a likening ...
Bush .... Adolf Hitler
Rove .... Joseph Goebbels
We need to preserve what civil rights we still have intact and make an honest effort to get back those that have already been taken away from us. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/18/2006 3:54:39 PM | The facists seem to have most everyone fooled into thinking that they are patriotic and for the people and if you don't feel the same then you are unamerican while all the time they are constantly taking our very rights out from under us day by day and putting more and more controls on us day by day...For example, the war on drugs...What a joke...The government has used this issue for their gain and control in a very manipulative way and they have intelligently pulled the wool over most Americans eyes...They have and will continue to control the drugs that come into this country...Why do we have troops in Columbia...Not for eradication, but for protection...The government controls cocaine...We now have troops in Afghanistan...Is it to control the heroin...Our troops are not in Iraq for WMD they are there for OIL and only oil...Our government has used drugs by flooding the streets with them, and a large majority of the users have had some sort of drug crime...Wahlah, they now own you...you are a second rate citizen, unable to vote, unable to bear arms...Very important thing the right to bear arms...Isn't that how hitler started..Started by disarming the public...Notice, the US, Bush admin, whoever you want to blame, our gov. is trying to disarm the world...N. Korea, Iraq, Iran, etc...They are (OUR GOV) a control freak facists regime who wants to control everything that they can control on earth and they are dangerous...Our freedom is already gone, it is but a silohette and a smokescreen...I have traveled, and frankly I feel more freedom when I leave the states in many places that I go...It is really scarry what our government is doing, and I am convinced that no-one can do a damn thing about it...Our constitution states that when the government get to be larger and more powerful than the people it is time for a revolution to overthrow it at ALL cost...People it is much bigger than us...But on the brightside...Maybe Armageddon is just around the corner and I am just gonna sit back and watch in amusement as all the scum goes down the drain anyway like a great big tidal wave to wash it all away...Hope you can swim...If not better learn...I know if they (gov.) keeps playing policeman to the world all the shit will hit the fan soon enough anyway...  | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/18/2006 5:20:14 PM | now mycorrosso Albert Einstein was a liberal and he blows away any of the conservatives you represent in terms of intelligence and important things to say. I think it is a shame that ignorant conservatives like you who can't present an intelligent arguement and can only resort to name calling, insults and false propaganda make the conservatives who do have intelligent arguments look bad. How about hearing from some of you intelligent conservatives out there. There are some aren't there? It is amusing and kind of sad to hear these grown adults argue like I remember kids arguing in second grade.
"billybob stick to sleepin with kinfolk ...your dixiecrat way of thinking is laughable" Now now, I come from a southern family and we were taught better manners and reason than this person.
But seriously I heard from a journalist on punlic radio who lives in the Middle East about a very disconcerting fact. The USA military has been flying people to countries that torture people to have these people tortured. One such country would boil people in fat and then the USA would use the information, if they got any. Sure sounds like Nazi Germany to me. Also, it is sad but people like Mycorrosso are just the type of people Nazi Germany would have used to report about his neighbors to the SS. I am glad he expressed him self. It just confirms my argument that people full of hate are out there and could be used to establish and maintain a Fascist state in this country. Really Mycorrosso you need to go to church and remember what you learned there. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/18/2006 8:07:47 PM |
type of people Nazi Germany would have used to report about his neighbors to the SS. My mother-in-law told me that she used to live in absolute fear after my father-in-law brought a radio home. She was so afraid he would get caught listening to stations that were forbidden. He also knew people who were transporting the dead bodies from some of the prison camps to camps that had the ability to burn the bodies. He knew what was going on and she was simply terrified that he would not be able to keep his mouth shut about it.
As I mentioned, in Ohio there was an honest effort to get public utility employees to report what they saw in homes they were required to enter. I shudder to think what might have happend had this actually been put in action.
That would have meant that your run-of-the-mill utility worker would have been put in a position to judge what they saw and determine if it needed to be reported or not! OMG ... it still gives me goose bumps to think how that would have affected the lives of hundreds or thousands of innocent people out there.
Imagine ... you report a gas leak in your home and a utility worker comes out to check it out. He thinks he sees something that needs to be reported and reports it. You are innocent of anything in any way, shape, or form that has to do with a terrorist threat, but you get hauled off to jail and just left there to rot ... because under the "new rules" ... you are a labeled terrorist and have no rights!
I lived in Germany for 10 years ... my ex husband is German and so we lived over there as German citizens as opposed to the life many experience as Americans in a military community. It was like a living history lesson. I speak and read German fluently and had the privilege of being able to speak with numerous people who lived this nightmare ... had the emotional as well as physical scars, and in some cases the tattoos to show for it. I listened closely to what each had to say ... it's something I never want to experience myself and do not want my children to have to go through.
I'll never forget my visit to the Dachau prison camp ... where I saw a lamp with a lampshade that was made out of the skin off a woman's breast area. We have all experienced a sunburn in our lives that causes us to shed skin ... you can't make a lamp shade out of it ... but you can make a lamp shade out of skin that is taken from a living body. Some poor woman was actually skinned alive to provide that lamp shade for an SS man to have on his desk.
We must make an all out effort to gain back our personal freedoms as we grew up knowing them.
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/19/2006 7:19:31 AM | "How about hearing from some of you intelligent conservatives out there. There are some aren't there?"
really wanted to say some have presented some opposing views that were intelligent responses who may be conservatives. I just wanted to say that to be fair and point out that just because one may not agree with them doesn't mean they are not intelligent or don’t have a point. I apologize for getting carried away.
One point I haven't heard is that America has in its past has suspended certain civil liberties during war time. The reason it is constitutional is that that the constitution states the government may do what it has to, to protect our borders. But if you think about it and the experts on terrorism agree that there will always be terrorist out there. So do we as a nation want to give up our great history of civil liberties and standing up to human rights world wide. Also doesn't that in a way make it so the terrorist won. Also if we do suspend human rights how far will it go? Will the politicians slowly erode our rights year after year until an hundred years from now things are as bad as has happen in other countries through out history.
I don't think that we would ever as a nation would ever do to our people what the Nazi Germans did to their people. But I am sure the Germans didn't neither. The Germans were good Christian people to. But when I hear reports of us flying prisoners to foreign countries to be boiled in fat to get information out of them I wonder and realize that is as bad as anything the Nazis have done. I am glad people speak up. I am hoping that that the check and balances of people talking up we have in this country will but us back on track. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/20/2006 5:00:31 PM | you have become my favourite stranger!
yes i agree with many remarks and suggestions you say considering that some points may be of course a little biased, but i do feel that with a dictatorship, one need a impressionable audience.
the United states is indeed (to some degree) impressionable as a audience!
this is represented in the media hype, spin doctoring which can be whitnessed on US TV each day.
as public Enemy once said? "Dont believe the hype?"
a good start to go by!
the world has sat back and watched the Bush administration and some others in the past, make many ridiculous desicions in the name of international Liason as the Gaurd dog of the world.
hmmmmm
well i will let you consider your statements about Nixon and also bush there.
I rest my case.
I am no politician, but come from a family embedded in politics since 1948.
so I do understande the ethical and structural basis to a degree. and I am very familiar with spin doctoring too. i studied it in media for three years!
keep up the good rant!
and as I say
"keep your head in the clouds"
one day you may fly.
jamie | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/21/2006 1:44:43 AM | Some one ask me what I thought Fascist was and if I knew that other Presidents had striped civil rights during war time in our past. Good point. I really wish you conservatives would give more of your points. I have traveled from one side of this country to the other and meet thousands of Americans. We really are a nation of great people. You conservatives do have a lot of good points and would hate for them not to be brought out in the social and political forum. I do tend to the left but I have my conservative views also. But on the topic at hand here is the letter I sent back.
Hello
Yes I realize that. President Lincoln stripped many civil liberties for instance. But we are not talking a war that can be won. If it was a war against the al quida (I realize I probably spelled it wrong) that would be one thing. That would of be reasonable and make sense. What they did was declare a never ending war on terrorism. Since it will never be won as the experts on terrorism believe that means our civil liberties will always be striped and not just in war time as before. That makes me suspicious of the leaders in Washington. What are they up to? They have to know that it can not be won. I really meant oppressive but found some similarities between present policy and what I have heard about Fascist. I also believe it is possible that Bush is in Washington right now trying to figure out how to declare himself King. He is just asking for way to much unchecked power. I do not trust the man. I realize that there are those who are far more educated than me on this. I just wanted to state some of my concerns and hope the experts would discuss it. I did get some educated liberals discuss it but was disappointed that more conservatives didn't state the type points like what you presented. Thank you for your point. But to answer your question I thought fascist was a Government with a Dictator that had no respect for human rights and extreme control over the citizens. My concern is if we give the executive branch uncheck power what is to prevent a President from taking over.
Leif
Also thanks for the compliment spitfireboy. yeah I am a bit bias. I try not to be but what can I say. I think we all are in our way. Also I know my head is in the clouds but I do assure you that I realize the harsh realities of life in this world.
I also just wanted to say I hope you men help those poor people in Iraq but really, we need to think of our Nation and let those people work it out. I hope for our nation that we win in Iraq but there is a very real possibility we won't. What do people want. For us to stay there fifty years from now. I have heard reports that we already lost from a British reporter who lives there. Face it we may not be able to help those people and the best thing may be for us to leave them along and fight it out. But what do I know.
I do want to say this. I am proud of my country for going after Al Quida. They are the real enemy. Lets wipe out the murdering dogs off the face of the earth who have declared war on our nation and attacked us numerous times. But people Islam doesn't =Al Quida any more than the KKK =Christianity. Saudi Arabia for instance is our friend that is heavily invested in our Country. So lets wipe out the Al Quida who many in Islam would love to see gone and make peace with Islam. After all we do worship the same God just like the Jews. | |
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woleh
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Joined: 7/7/2004
Msg: 74 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/21/2006 6:01:15 PM |
I thought fascist was a Government with a Dictator that had no respect for human rights and extreme control over the citizens.
I hate to bring it to you but what you have described ^^^ is totalitarian regime regardless political base
Fascism is political and/or religion movement which declare superiority one nation/ race/religion over all another.
According to this US is not a fascist country but become only closest ally and satelite of Israel which is govern by now zionist's movement. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 75 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/21/2006 7:19:23 PM |
Fascism is political and/or religion movement which declare superiority one nation/ race/religion over all another.
I hate to break it to you but the race and religion part are not required, defining elements of fascism. They often times do go along with fascism but more as a tool for instilling nationalism.
The nationalism element is a required, defining element of fascism.
If you don't believe that the US gov't promotes the US, its' system of government, its' values and culture as inherently superior to every other nation then you have not been paying attention.
While it is not required, if you don't believe that a large and significant element of gov't promoted racism exists in the US then you haven't been paying attention.
Take a quick look at the attitude towards Islam that is growing daily in the US and the rhetoric of the US gov't that helps feed this. While I would agree that this anti-Islamic racism has not yet become fully institutionalized, it is most certainly used by the US gov't as a tool to build blind nationalism.
Whether this bears any relationship to the US's ties with Israel is a moot point. It does nothing to change the direction the US has been moving in. | |
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