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woleh
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Joined: 7/7/2004
Msg: 76 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/21/2006 10:39:14 PM | ^^^
At some point you're correct if as i believe, you're talking nazism.
Hitler's form of fascism was based on national ideas and that's why was been classified as nazism.
Beside nazis Germany there was bunch of another countries with fascist regimes like Hungary, Italy, Spain, Romania etc.
All of them was governed by fascist regimes which regardless similar ideology, in the forms have been different from Hitler's nazism.
It is erroneous to claim that the USA is the fascist state as was nazis Germany.
You even contradict to yourself.
Races, nations and religions from all around the globe reside there.
So which one nation will be picked out to use their national ideas as a basis for american nazism?
I would say US trying to be some sort of global remote empire which attempt to convince the others (sometimes by carrot sometimes by whip) to follow their values and life style.
Maybe even at some points they pretend to be superior in wealth being, technologies, fatness but i don't see any declaration to absolute superiority :) | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 77 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/21/2006 11:30:52 PM | It is erroneous to claim that the USA is the fascist state as was nazis Germany.
You even contradict to yourself.
Races, nations and religions from all around the globe reside there.
So which one nation will be picked out to use their national ideas as a basis for american nazism?
I did not and have not stated that the US is becoming fascist in the sense of Nazism. In fact, earlier in this thread I specifically stated that the US was unlikely to become fascist in that sense. I have stated that it is more likely to become fascist in the Italian or Spanish sense (you might do well to remember that the term 'fascist' is of Italian origin, from the word 'fascismo')
Further, you are confusing nationalism with ethnicity. The original national or ethnic origin of American citizens is irrelevant. The US is a nation in and of its' own right and nationalism need not involve anything more than US nationalism. Two common and well known US nationalistic aphorisms that illustrate this point are, "My country, right or wrong" and "America, love it or leave it".
I will provide for you a definition of fascism which may clarify things for you.
Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism.
Other than having not YET evolved a thoroughly totalitarian system of gov't all of the other elements exist to a large degree. The authoritarian element is still far from fully developed but it has been evolving in that direction.
Maybe even at some points they pretend to be superior in wealth being, technologies, fatness but i don't see any declaration to absolute superiority
Granted there have not yet been any "official" declarations of superiority of the magnitude of say, Hitler's declaration of natural Aryan superiority but, this kind of declaration is not necessary. The representatives of the US gov't regularly extoll the inherent superiority of American culture, values, beliefs and systems through both word and deed. A significant percentage of the American populace regularly parrot this same sense of superiority (take the time to read many of the posts in these forums if you doubt that). We can all consider it fortunate that this group does not yet constitute the majority although they would have you believe they do.
Remember the subject here is not "Has America become Nazi Germany" but is it "in danger of becoming as bad". | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/22/2006 12:22:48 AM | This is how a 1983 version of Webster's Ninth New Collegiate defined Fascism. A political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of a Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
I am, sorry you didn't get it woleh. When I gave my description of fascism I was admitting when I started this thread that I was not well educated about political science. That I was an average Joe blow on the subject who saw some disturbing trends in this country and wanted to hear what the experts in political science had to say about it as well as others. Since then some very educated people have made some very good cases about the subject and some of us average Joe blows have express our opinions. I have become much more educated about exactly what fascism is since this thread started as well as the threat in this country. If you get to know me I am a believer in truth and not propaganda and logical fallacies to make one sound as if one have won a debate to the ignorant when one has really just shown ones inability to reason.
I will tell you what I do know. I know when I was 18 I knew some people in the intelligent community. I know not to say who or where for obvious reasons. They told me about all type of dirty and other secrets that are going on with people in power. I also know when to keep my mouth shut. I do know that since World War Two there has been a barrage of terrorist threats and plots to over throw the USA government. It has been constant. I know after over 50 years of attempts that 9/11 was the only large successful attempt by foreigners. And this was done in an environment of us getting more civil liberties and Human rights not only here but world wide. I know men in the intelligent community have dedicated and often given their life so we Americans can feel safe and protected. They didn't tell us Americans about all these threats because they wanted us to feel safe and secure. It also can be argued that we were safe. If you put it in perspective when you consider that over 50 years of attempts that only 9/11 happen you really are more likely to die in a car crash on your way to work than from a terrorist attack.
People calm down. You are as safe as can be. Yes this is life and there are no guarantees but relatively speaking you are safe and protected by the men that are fighting hard to protect your liberties and way of life. The best way you can do to help them is go on with the beautiful American lives you can and not live in fear. We are the land of the free and the Brave, not the land of the controlled and the scared. I do know even with all the control freaks efforts that people in this country live as free people. That is why we have proven we have the greatest warriors in the world. Have faith in our men. You rock you men in the CIA, FBI, Military and other law enforcement agencies. You have done a great job protecting our nation over the years and will continue. You are safe people, you are protected, calm down.
Don't let this present president who has tried to keep the American public in fear to promote his own political agenda, destroy all those years of work to make American feel safe and protected which we are. Yes we made some mistakes with 9/11. But ultimately the responsibility for that comes to the commander and chief and not our fine men who dedicated their lives to serve this country. But yes the intelligent community has looked at the mistakes made and learned from them. Now they are even wiser and better able to protect us than the other 50 so years they successfully protected us from major terrorist attacks. HAVE FAITH IN OUR MEN, THEY DO A GREAT JOB.
I also know that the president failed in his duty. Instead of calming the American public down and letting us feel safe so we would go on with our lives he kept us in fear. He kept talking about this threat and declared one false terrorist alert after another. Have any one heard of the boy who cried wolf. These actions made it that much harder for us Americans to go on with our lives and the economy suffered as a result. It also made it so if a real terrorist alert was called everyone would just say yeah right while deep inside be wondering.
I also remember reading an interview in OMNI in the early nineties. It had one of the top terrorist experts discuss terrorism. He stated then that the next century would not be a war of major world powers. That because of the bomb they don't dare go after one another. He said the main threats would be terrorist. He also explained that there will always be terrorist. It is a sad consequence of modern technology. That number one there will always be these nuts who will realize that all they have to do is use technology to kill many people and he will be famous, say like in Oklahoma. Also there will always be these small groups that will be dissatisfied with the major world powers but will realize they can't over throw them. So some of these people will realize that all they have to do is kill major amounts of people and they will get their message heard and will hurt the social and political establishments they don't support, say like the World Trade Center. People the politicians in Washington got together in their rooms and discussed all this. They know what the experts say and know that a war on terrorism will never be won. When they talk about us winning the war against terrorism they are lying through their teeth. There will always be terrorist out there.
Now please correct me if I am wrong but I never heard the congress officially declaring a war on the al Quida. They knew they will win that war. Also, did the Congress officially declare war on terrorism or was that just a mantra of Bush.
I will agree to something Bush said yesterday. He said we will win against the terrorist instead of this winning the war against terrorism. He is right. When ever terrorist have surfaced in the modern era we have always won and will always win against them. I am talking us good people who respect human life and the lives of the innocent. That is because us good people are wiser and in more control of our emotions and are more stable, besides there is more of us. We always have routed the terrorist out and will always route them out. It just takes time sometimes. al Quida days are numbered people. So are all the other terrorist people who will surface in the future. The terrorist George Bush is another matter. You have to admit he has tried to keep America afraid. He will fail to. We are a brave people.
I also know that our country was founded on the principles of checks and balances. But yes our Government is not invulnerable. Do you know of the story of the politicians that were plotting to over throw the USA government in I think it was the capital building in the 18 hundreds. But he was whispering and some one could hear them talking across the room because of how sound carried in the room with the doom. That failed to.
But our Government has been successful infiltrated and those who infiltrated have taken control of large segments of the government. I will speak about a case I heard on public television. The Mafia had pictures of Edgar J Hoover prancing around in woman’s clothing. The Mafia used it to control the man. That is why he came out and said there is no mafia in this country when he knew dang well they were here. Heck they were black mailing the creep. Hoover in turn gained all types of damaging information on politicians. It has been called the Hoover files. He was also known to use this information to black mail Congress men into voting certain ways. In this way the Italian Mafia controlled the Government.
But people The Mafia Dons are being caught. The witness protection program is a success. The Italian Mafia has lost much of its power. They no longer control our Government like before. The systems of check and balances worked. Stuff happens. The founders of this nation knew they would. That is why they distribute power. So if bad men take control of one segment of Government other checks would works in other segments. The Masses is just one of the check and balances.
Yes I agree conservatives with your message of a strong military and law enforcement. But thank god for you liberals. Many make it sound as if giving the FBI and others unchecked power to invade people privacy and listen to who ever they wish that they will only listen to suspicious people and not us common folk. But if you look at their history that is not true. The FBI did listen on Americans private conversations that did nothing but disagree with political policies that the FBI supported. They also sent spies to their meetings to not only say what was happening but to irritate people as well as get members to fight and disagree with one another in what ever way they could come up with. The FBI was even known to send letters to employers that said lies about people so they would get fired. Granted some of these groups were people like the KKK but some were just law abiding folk taking advance of their American right to express their political view like people in the minorities rights movement and other Leftist movements. This is not one of the false rumors that the leftist proganda love to spread. I heard this from a Television show on the History channel called Declassified. Granted the Congress did finally put a stop to this, at least officially. The system of check and balances did hold. God bless America. The point is if we give our law enforcement and military unchecked power they will abuse it. I have talked to Cops who told me about how they hated corruption in the force but were powerless to do anything about it. Let’s empower the good ones and take power away from the criminals to human kind who hide behind thier authority.
People it is the peace makers that have any hope of winning this war on terrorism or at least decreasing terrorist attacks to a minimal. Yes we have to go after the cold blooded killers but as long as people are extremely mad at us a certain amount of the population will come after us. We need to calm some of these Islamic societies down. I don't know how to do this. But I know you don't do it by going after one Islamic Society after another. That is only as a last result. I don't know how to calm these people down. I do know that there are brilliant peace makers in and out of Islam working on this. Let have some faith in those people to.
People Iran is a threat yes. But look at it from the point of view of the people who live in Iran. USA empowers a man in their country that was looking out for western interest. The problem is the man starved his people to build a military and some other things to. I once heard of a CIA hero saying that if you want to buy a country buy food for the people. Well a religious fanatic takes power and over throws this person that starved his people. Then the USA empowers a assassin in Iraq to be in power and then attack their country. Then when they defend their country through the blood of masses of unarmed people storming the Iraq soldiers they started to do what we would have done. They went after their enemy in Iraq. Then we stopped that. Now I realize that there may be points to our side. But that is how they look at it. Is it any wonder they hate us. We need to find a way to calm those people down and make them realize we are not a threat. I don't know, like find a way to help the people. Please everyone calm f**king down before this turns in World War Three and/ or a civil war in the USA. That is what the terrorist want and is trying to accomplish.
If people will just stop killing one another we can blah blah this and blah blah that. We can try this and that. Yet in the end what works and the truth will prevail. It may take a thousand years but hey. That is if we will stop killing one another. Yes we need our warriors to protect us and go after cold blooded killers before they kill innocent people. We have our Samsons and King Davids and Esters. I honor you all. After all it was a soldier Christ honored as having the greatest faith in all Israel when the soldier showed faith in the King of peace.
But it is the peace makers who will save the world. As mother Theresa said the way to save the world is one person at a time. When you bring one person into the light of love you don't only save that person but all the people that person touches and the children that person raises who in turn bring other people in the light. That is why people are not as Barbaric as they use to be generally speaking. World wide there is less murder than the past. You don't hear of Crucifixion for instance world wide like there use to be.
Is Bush a threat to our National security? Put it together. We have a hurricane that trashes New Orleans. Bush hears of this. What does he do? Of coarse he calls his advisors together and they go over all the possibilities. They are smart people. They have to be to get where they are. So they have to know they could airdrop food and water into the city. They decided not to. They also have to know it is on a major water way. So they have to know they could rally ever boat in the area to start getting people out until they can fix the roads. They decide not to. Why. Honestly I don't know. All I do know is they let thousands of people die for some political reason. People, they got dogs and cats out before people. If they are willing to let people die like that they are capable of anything. Now they are asking for all the unchecked power they can get for a never ending war. So yes they are a threat. If you can logically explain why I am wrong about New Orleans I would love to hear it. I am a believer in truth not propaganda.
Listen six retired general thought it was important enough to speak up and state that Bush should get rid of I think it is Rumsfield (however it is spelled), any how the top military advisor to Bush. People these are not knee jerk liberals. These are men who have dedicated their lives to protecting this country and serving the nation. They understand the military more than any of us and felt it was important enough to get together and state that something is up on capital hill. If that doesn't tell you that something is up nothing will. Any how, how did Bush respond? Like any dictator. He scolded these honorable men and said I decide what is right and what is right is for Rumsfield to... as if his word was the word of God and how dare anyone question it.
Yes I am not the expert on politics. I am a technician and spiritualist. But some times simple people can see plain simple truths that smarter people sometimes miss with all their reason and complicated explanations and rationale. That is just Gods way that he made it so less intelligent people are smarter is some ways than the most brilliant people out there. I know it gets confusing with everything all these smart people are throwing at us. But kiss it and some things become clear. In other words Keep It Simple Silly. Even if the fascist take over us American people will find a way to take our country back. The check and balances will prevail. But please wake up before it comes to that. The main threat is not the terrorist. It is the fascist and the like who want to have unchecked power and for us not to have any rights under an excuse of a never ending war. There are those in Government like those six generals who are doing what they can. People we don't have to give up our civil liberties or our human rights. We don't have to give the authorities the power to abuse their power. We can go forward as a nation in our pursuit to be freer, more loving and stronger. Just have faith in the good warriors and peace makers and not let certain politicians scare our freedom and feeling of security away from us. You are safe, you are protected, calm down. | |
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woleh
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Joined: 7/7/2004
Msg: 79 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/22/2006 9:56:08 AM |
Other than having not YET evolved a thoroughly totalitarian system of gov't all of the other elements exist to a large degree. The authoritarian element is still far from fully developed but it has been evolving in that direction
Ok, China, Cuba, North Korea have way more "the other elements exist to a large degree". Anyway they cannot be considered as fascist countries.
The fascism is not elements of systems but ideology on which system is based and on which system is developing authority elements.
Crucial element of fascism (fascio - bunch, which means union) idea of superiority which can consolidate people in support of this idea.
The more society is diverse the less chances to unite this society around of one idea.
Anyway it's too complicated for discussion in a forum particularly in this thread.
I mentioned above zionism as an example of now a day fascism. They have crucial element, which defined nazism's form of fascism in their ideology - superiority of jew's folk.
According to this ideology they have on official level (yet internal only) practice of hate to others nations, chauvinism, segregation, etc.
Well history is spining around. At this time in absurd way. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 81 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/22/2006 3:00:59 PM | OK what about FDR stripping rights
Do you mean what about most people recognizing that many of the violations went too far and were unnecessary?
Although, I suppose that some might argue that compensation paid to internees happened only because the gov't had money that they didn't know what to do with and thought it might just make them go away.
I would imagine that the fact that WW2 was actually a REAL war rather than a made up, imaginary "war" would make a difference.
I would imagine that the fact that WW2 actually had the potential to be winnable, something that placed a natural and foreseeable conclusion on those suspensions, would make a difference as well. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/22/2006 7:33:30 PM | "Cool throw in the race card!!!! what a jerk"
I realize that some people do throw the race card as excuse to excuse bad actions by individuals who are minorities and give special rights but I didn't hear anyone do anything like that. It actually seems to me that you are throwing in the "Cool throw in the race card" card. I hear this among a lot of conservative talk show host etc. If they can't find flaws in the arguments they make it sound like someone is saying something they actually are not and use key phrases. In other words they take advantage of certain people fears and ignorance instead of making people more aware and using reason which is what the liberals tend to do. This is a fascist tendency to use false propaganda techniques from getting people to express apposing political views and think on their own.
“Anyway it's too complicated for discussion in a forum particularly in this thread." It is just another example of a logical fallacy. It seemed to me that this person was arguing semantics and not really addressing the issues brought up and then when he was losing the argument he attacked the medium this it is brought up on and indirectly the people on the sight by saying especially this thread. If you can't find fault in the argument you find fault in the person and if you can’t win the debate you make excuses why you can’t make your point. Is it to complicated or is it that you are unable to make your point?
Does it matter what ism or iarn you may want to call it. What I care about is our country may be under a threat by people in our political system of extreme oppression and people who don't want Americans to be free. I am glad to hear people bring out faults in our present political system and find comparisons and don't mean to diminish or discourage your efforts but I asked if we could become as bad as Nazi Germany, not become like Nazi Germany. We could become as bad as Germany in our own unique way if some had their way. | |
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woleh
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Joined: 7/7/2004
Msg: 83 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/23/2006 8:01:57 AM |
It is just another example of a logical fallacy.
I'm really sorry if my answer upset you.
But in fact discussion on this matter most likely will take hundreds pages and won't be interesting for users of forum.
As to question of comparison of US to nazis Germany, i have told my view and have nothing more to add.
By the present condition US can't slip to nazis regime.
More appropriate will be to compare it to state described by Orwell's in his "1984". | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/23/2006 10:08:05 AM | You know it amazes me that people actually buy this line about winning the war on terrorism. People think about it. Do you think they are ever going to come out and say “we have won the war on terrorism. There are no terrorist in the world and there will never be any threat of terrorist in the world again."
"More appropriate will be to compare it to state described by Orwell's in his "1984"." I see your point now. Sorry I didn't mean to say you were dumb or anything like that. Just didn't want people to become discourage from expressing their opinions. It is complicated but some points can be simplified so people can understand how dangerous the present political climate is. It was not until the Hurricane in New Orleans that I realize how dangerous Bush and his cabinet are. Like I said if he is capable of letting thousands die he is capable of anything. I think it is possible that he is plotting a presidential take over and if he succeeds that he could start death camps for people in the counter culture and other things such things Dictators do. Given some of the unchecked balances he has gain and the fanatical trust of the religious right I don’t think a presidential take over is impossible like it use to be. But I suspect it is more likely that the big brother watching you is more likely I suppose or perhaps a combination of both. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/24/2006 4:55:49 AM | RAW STORY: http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Video_50_year_study_says_conservatives_0711.html
In an interview with MSNBC's Keith Olbermann, former Nixon counsel John Dean explained a largely unknown 50 year academic study. The data shows that conservatives are much more likely to follow authoritarian leaders.
Peace  | |
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arri
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Joined: 10/5/2005
Msg: 86 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/24/2006 6:07:06 PM | Muslims and Arabs in States are slowly being treated and looked at the same way that the Jews were being looked at the start of the Nazi movement. Hate mongering, holding them responsible for everything that is wrong, being classed as extremist and dangerous.
Just coming here to the POF threads and reading the comments coming from apparently intelligent and open minded people. Just take a moment and replace the word Muslim with Christian and read them again to feel the impact.
What the hell does war on terror mean anyway? | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/24/2006 6:31:38 PM | "I'm really sorry if my answer upset you." I felt I did a poor job of making my point and after a couple of days of thinking about it felt I could better make my case. First of all just because I disagree with you does not mean I am upset. I assure you that my knee does not start to jerk. I am very calm and rational when I discuss my points. Do you think this because you become upset with those with alternate views? I have found a peace of mind that few have achieved through God and my lord Jesus Christ. I actually enjoy it when others disagree with me and when others can point out when I am wrong. That is one way for me to learn and become a better person.
I do disagree with your point. "The fascism is not elements of systems but ideology on which system is based and on which system is developing authority elements." First of all by definition of the Webster dictionary Fascism is a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control. That describes elements of the system and not an ideology. Besides what matters is the elements of the system and not what people say about the system. But largely this is what I meant that you are arguing semantics.
"Crucial element of fascism (fascio - bunch, which means union) idea of superiority which can consolidate people in support of this idea.
The more society is diverse the less chances to unite this society around of one idea.
Actually there is an idea of superiority which can be used to consolidate the American public under the idea of us being the greatest Nation on earth to consolidate the people in support of a far right take over of the USA government. There is also a common bond the far right has found to exploit to get away with their attempt at a take over. That is not only the war on terrorism but also under the fact that the majority of us are Christian. I have seen the documentaries on the Nazis and do see similarities. Hitler created a sense of nationalism for Germany much like the far right will create for America. Also Hitler created a sense of a common enemy oppressing the German state. Instead of the Jews and those who were blamed for the poverty of Germany this Regime has scape goated the Muslims and made Islam into the threat. They have also created a one Idea, of this war on terrorism, to rally the country around which could result in a fascist theocratic take over from the far right. Hitler talked, just like they do, of protecting the fine law abiding citizens of Germany and going after that countries counter culture.
We Americans have a common bond. We want to be safe, live a good life, be good people, and are Christian over all. The one thing they have to do is destroy this common bond we have of wanting to be free. They do this by creating a war that can never be won so they can excuse taking away our freedoms indefinitely under the excuse that we are in war time. So they exploit our patriotism and wanting to feel safe to excuse taking away our rights and give themselves unchecked power. So yes, I think that those who say we could become a fascist country have a point. You saying a couple of things doesn't make it true and then saying it is to complicated does not mean you are right. Make your point and back it with facts man. You are intelligent I am sure you could if you tried.
There are factions of the far right and the far left who do want to take over the United States of America. I have hitched hiked off and on for years and heard you talk to me in your cars. I have been in your churches and been at your communes. There are factions in the far right that would love to make laws to put people in jail for lying or adultery, tell people what they can wear and what they can read, what they watch on TV and movies and other things your church leaders don’t support. They also tend to want the law enforcement do what ever it wants. They view it as empowering the police to go after criminals but the effect is that police officers get away with such crimes as assault and even murder and the courts regularly prosecute innocent people. These people want a take over by infiltrating the government then changing the laws and constitution to turn this country in their eyes into a government based on Christian law but in practice it would be a oppressive theocracy. They would also like to give their politicians uncheck power to do as they want while suppressing any other politicians. Don't get me wrong. Most in the church are not like this. Most church going people are kind, loving Christian people that are in a great place. I would recommend anyone to go to church. But there are those who hate, that want to exploit others fears to practice their hate under a guise of Christianity. At the heart of conservatism is to protect every thing good and decent and innocent in our culture. But there are dangerous far right radicals who don’t want this country to be a free Republic.
Then there are those in the far left. They would like to turn this into a socialist state. They would make corporations illegal and regulate ownership of property. They want to rewrite the constitution and have the masses revolt against those in power and establish a new form of government.
To be fair there are those in the far right and far left who don't want a take over of the United States Government. But I do feel that if the far right or far left seize power that we are doomed as a free republic. It does seem kind of like a tag team some times. The left have their controls and the right have their controls. The effect is to take freedom and power from individuals and give more power to authorities and institutions. Thank God most of us are moderate.
But right now the threat is for a far right take over and they are definitely in power trying their take over. The far left really just talk a big game but really have never been a threat, at least from what I have seen.
I did want to futher clarify my point about the conservatives using fallacies. I realize that there are the conservative who are far more knowledgeable about logic than me and use reason. As well there are the liberal propagandists who use what ever technique to get people to accept their ideology. It is just when I hear the talk conservative talk show host and other conservatives I hear a lot of fallacies, slogans and insults and when I hear the liberals on talk shows and such I hear more logical argument and facts. It is a shame because the conservative voice needs to be heard and they really don't have to resort to such cheap tactics. To clarify what I mean by fallacies I will list the fallacies I learn in a philosophy logic class at the University of Carbondale. The next time you hear one of these conservative talk show host and others I will let you judge if these use these techniques. This comes from Student Packet Phil 105 by Dr. Schedler Southern Illinois University Carbondale
Fallacies of relevance
1)premises are irrelevant to conclusion
2)there is psychological connection
3) Typically a debating situation
1) Appeal to force
One forces opponent to agree
2) Ad hominem fallacy
Two forms
a) abusive ad hominem
ridicule something fixed or permanent about a opponent
b) Circumstantial ad hominem
Use opponent’s relationships or circumstances to cast doubt on motive or integrity
3) Appeal to pity
Makes our case more attractive. Audience confuses sympathy it has for me with reasons for my conclusions.
4) Appeal to self righteousness
Point out that my intentions are pure. Audience may confuse sincere motives with good argument
5) Pointing to the other wrong
Show audience how much worse the opponents case is
6) Arguing besides the point
Attempt to establish some point irrelevant to the conclusion but argument does not fit specific category
7) Appeal to authority
Author says S is true, so S must be true. A fallacy for inductive arguments
8) Appeal to tradition
Doctrine or practice has always been accepted. Confuse universality of a belief with its truth.
Fallacies of ambiguity
Three elements
a) misuse of word or words
b) conclusion rendered plausible by shifting between two different meanings
c) Argument may be shown invalid once fallacy is invalid
1) Fallacy of equivocation
Some single word has more than one meaning. Switching from one meaning to the next renders argument plausible
2) Fallacy of amphiboly
Words are combined in such a way as to create two possible meanings
3) Fallacy of composition
One infers that because each part has a certain property, the whole must have it to.
e.g. each part of disassemble bicycle is in perfect working order
4) Fallacy of division
One infers that what is true of whole must be true of each part
Fallacies of insufficient evidence
Evidence that is relevant but less than full proof
1) Begging the question: Restating the conclusion in premises.
2) Hasty generalizations
Two forms
a) Unrepresentative sample
b) Too small a sample
3) False cause—two events are closely connected, so one is assumed to be cause
Two forms
a) Time connection
b) Geographical or spatial relation
4) Argument from ignorance
Two forms
a) Absence of evidence for P, so P is false
b) No evidence against P, so P is true
So judge for your self. I realize that most of us make some of these mistakes at times but some seem to think that this is a way to win arguments. Well I have talked enough and will let others talk for a couple of days or more. Really I am sure there are others that could better find the comparisons of our present political climate and other oppressive states. Of course it will not be exactly like in Germany or else where but we could learn not to make the same mistakes others have when oppressive Governments that hurt people gain power. It was not because those people were evil. It was because they were fooled.
Bottom line the war against terrorism was made because they knew we would never win that war. They will never come out and say there are no terrorist and there will never be any terrorist threats in the world. They are intelligent and know this and knew this when they created the war and talk about winning the war. They lie. But it was more important to get power for them than to declare war on the people who attacked us. They want to use this to gain unchecked power, take away freedom and power from the people and have a far right take over. Please open your mind conservatives and stop empowering monsters like George Bush who let thousands die in New Orleans. Stop this far right take over and stop electing people in power who are giving us Christians a bad name to our youth etc. When ever in history people have been given unchecked power it results in crimes against humanity all the way to mass murder. This really is not a liberal or conservative issue. Many conservatives understand about unchecked power. But let’s get rid of those in Washington who do want unchecked power and lie about winning this war on terrorism. It sadly really has become a war on freedom and decency.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/26/2006 5:21:29 PM | How do you think the people in New Orleans feel?
How do you think the mother feels whose child died in her arms because there was no food or water to give her heart and soul? Think of the horror she will live for the rest of her life. Think of the child who watched his parents die of thirst and hunger who is now an orphan. Think of how that beautiful child of God feels. How do you think the Police Officer I talk to felt when he saw at least two hundred dead in the Super Dome and hears the authorities, as he put it “play the numbers game” and say only six or so died? Think of the Doctor who sent his nurses out to loot for food and drink for patients. Think of the horror that doctor felt when he hears that his president scolded those people for looting and a reporter said to the president but those people have no food or water and Bush says that doesn’t matter. What kind of monster scolds people for doing what they have to do to live and save lives. Think of the person who saw his friend gunned downed by a National Guard Soldier because he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Think of the horror of the National Guard man has to live with because he had to gun his country men down. Think of the shame a Guards Man felt because he had orders to turn boats away that were going into the city to save people? Imagine how you would feel when you heard a conservative talk show host defending these needless horrors as unavoidable. One even said you don’t want to be poor and find yourself on top of a building after a hurricane. How do you think people feel, who watched their love ones die and latter on hear that the business community was fully willing to donate what it took to save those people but didn’t have a way?
Think of the questions that are on their minds and the conclusions we drew? Why did the president not air drop food and water so that we do not have to live with the horror of our loved ones death? Why did he not use his information and communication resources to rally ever boat in the area to bring food and water in and then get people out? The very same boats people watch go by the Mississippi all day long. Where were these boats in time of need? Why did it take so long to get the National Guard in to restore peace so they didn’t have do come in and Gun down so many people. Why did he not use the power and authority he had to use every available resource we have to save thousands of our fellow Americans? Imagine when you realize that he could have and is intelligent enough to know it. Imagine the horror you would feel in your heart. You answer why he could have not saved these people or how he could have not known he could and perhaps I will change my mind. But I have thought long and hard on this as many of us who have loved ones in New Orleans. I think there is only one answer. On that cold hard week not only were we in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany. WE WERE AS BAD AS NAZI GERMANY.
Please my fellow fine, decent church going people, please stop defending this monster and those who are a party to his crimes and his cover up of being as bad as Hitler or Stalin. Please realize he to is guilty of mass murder. Just as guilty of murder as a man who looks at the bottom of a well to see people trapped and then walks away instead of lowering a rope. This man deserves to be put on trial for crimes against humanity alone side Saddam Hussein. Conservatives please stop defending him and let him get away with what ever crimes he does. Let’s at least impeach this monster. Imagine the disgust that the victims of New Orleans feel when they see a program saying what a fine, decent loving Christian man Bush is. Please realize that it is a slap in Gods face when you defend a mass murder actions and that God weeps over the victims and those who unknowingly defend their murderers. Please America wake up, for the fallen dead of this country. Let’s stop the traitor and enemy to every thing America believes in, George W Bush.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/26/2006 10:46:31 PM | I don't think the US is in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany, however...
It has long been my contention that all successful political movements appeal to one of the seven deadly sins. Classic liberalism/laisez faire capitalism appeals to greed. Socialism to envy. (I also figure if I can come up with a political movement that appeals to lust and sloth, I'll sweep any election.) Fascism appeals to anger: hate your job, it's because the jews have all the good ones; the bar is too crowded, it's because they let all the queers in; bus running late, it's because the blacks are too lazy to drive properly.
For more than a few years now, many Republican commentators and candidates have appealed to anger. Everything is the fault of liberals in Hollywood, on the courts, or the fault of the ACLU. Your kid is screwing around?; it's Hollywood and Roe v Wade that are to blame. You can't get laid?; it's the feminists. Can't get a promotion?; feminists and affirmative action. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/27/2006 3:09:21 PM | I find it interesting that for over two days I saw nothing posted on this thread then within an hour of me exposing a government cover up about New Orleans I see an apposing view point to the question I presented. Strangebloom did use the logical fallacy I told you about of
a) abusive ad hominem
ridicule something fixed or permanent about a opponent
What he did was attack my poor English mechanics which was to ridicule something fixed or permanent about an opponent and then say that I was wrong with out putting any attention to the debate. Not only does it attempt to discredit me and the argument but the attempt is to keep people from even thinking about it. It could be a coincidence but it does make one wonder if this is a professional propagandist. A counter point being put on so soon makes me wonder if this thread is being monitored and the attempt was to keep my last post from being the last one on here so less people would read it.
At least I would hope our men are monitoring threads like this. I am not saying that they should not look for infiltrators when people bring up controversial threads like this. What I am saying is they should have a check of courts to monitoring the men spying so they don't use their power to use unreasonable search and seizer on Americans that are doing nothing wrong and are only using their constitutional right to express their political view point.
If you boys need me to help you to flush out Islamic or other fascist I am at your service and would be pleased to risk my life for my country. If you want me to help you spy on and sabotage Americans just because they oppose political view points you disagree with, count me out. You can count of me defending these Americans constitutional and God given right to express their view point and risk my life for God and my country men.
The cover up I mentioned is that I have heard from reliable sources including police men and other political connections I have down there as well as other locals is that the USA Government lied about the number of dead down in New Orleans. A police officer worded it as they are playing the numbers game and then talked about seeing at least two hundred dead at the super dome instead of the 6 or so they reported. The number of dead in New Orleans was in the thousands.
The other point I brought out in my last post is the president could have had food and water airdropped in the city and rallied every boat in the area to bring food into the area and get people out until the roads were fixed. If you think about it he did get together with his cabinet to go over their options. That they had to know they could do this and decided not to. They decided to wait five days. They had to know after that long that some of the elderly, the weak and the young would die but most people would not die until seven days. Thousands can be covered up. Tens of thousands can’t. Put it together people. They are guilty of murder as surely as a man who saw people at the bottom of a well and then refused to lower a rope and then watched the people in the well die.
Please check out my last post on this thread. I think it is a good piece and even worked on getting my English mechanics right. I think it is a good piece to give people an idea of how many people in New Orleans feel. I want any one to feel welcome to print the last post I wrote any where if they are so inclined. In other words I am making the last post of mine public domain. It is not required but I would like to hear if any one does use it. Take care and may the love of our lord and savior Jesus Christ shine on you.
P.S. I am going to take writing courses to work on my substandard English mechanics. I am still good at logic and content though. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/28/2006 12:03:29 PM | There are so many wrong points in your posting I dont know where to begin.
Why are you a self hating American? Why are you using an ad hominum attack instead of engaging in a civil discussion like an adult?
It doesn't surprise me that best argument you can come up with is essentially "you are so wrong I can't even refute your argument". That doesn't fly. Either explain your position or don't post.
As for my position:
No, the United States of America is not in danger of becoming as bad as Nazi Germany. Out constitution is well enough established that it will probably take at least another decade for the powers controlling the country to pull that one off. And even if this country does become as bad as Nazi Germany was, it won't be bad in the same way Nazi Germany was. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/28/2006 12:09:46 PM | Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.
~ Adlai Stevenson
Patriotism is easy to understand in America; it means looking out for yourself by looking out for your country.
~ Calvin Coolidge
A man's country is not a certain area of land, of mountains, rivers, and woods, but it is a principle; and patriotism is loyalty to that principle.
~ George William Curtis
A man's feet must be planted in his country, but his eyes should survey the world.
~ George Santayana
A thoughtful mind, when it sees a Nation's flag, sees not the flag only, but the Nation itself; and whatever may be its symbols, its insignia, he reads chiefly in the flag the Government, the principles, the truths, the history which belongs to the Nation that sets it forth.
~ Henry Ward Beecher | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/28/2006 1:47:55 PM | There are so many wrong points in your posting I dont know where to begin.”
Why are you a self hating American?" First of all I do love myself and I love my country as well. If my points are wrong please explain so I and other readers can learn from your point of perspective and if you are wrong let us exam it so we can point out where you are wrong. But I wonder if the reason you don’t state your points is you doubt whether your points could stand up to debate.
Why is it when Communism was the threat in the world people were willing to accept communist could infiltrate our government and it was consider patriotic to point out and defend against a possible communistic take over from within the government. But now that Fascism abroad is our countries main threat people think it is unpatriotic to point out the possibility of fascist infiltrating our countries government and to suggest policies to defend against it.
The main point I have been making is number one our president has failed us. He let the al Quida walk away in Afghanistan. You can't say with the military geniuses we have in our Army that we could not have surrounded them in the mountains and made a crushing blow to this enemy that bombed the World Trade Center. Bush failed as the Commander in Chief. Then he lied about these weapons of mass destruction to manipulate the country into going into a war we would not have other wise. Whether it turns out to be good or not Bush had no right to do that. I am rooting for our men in Iraq. Don't get me wrong. But I heard from a man in a think tank started by the USA government after 9/11 to deal with militant Muslims that agree with what I said about yes we need to deal with the Muslim militants (I called them Islam fascist) but all the war in Iraq has done is give our enemy the perfect proganda tool to rally the Muslim world in the middle east to his side. Also he stated that this war will take a long time but it will be won by helping the Islam people become more aware and that Islam won't be ready for democracy until they do evolve as a people. All democracy will result for many in Middle East Islam are for them to elect their militant Muslims into power who want to attack us. Yes we have to deal with fascist threats to our country in Islam and abroad. How about we learn about our success in the war against communism. We never attack their country and created the territorial imperative and now the people of both countries have worked through their hate of us. Now you tell me how suggesting intelligent solutions to the Middle East problem is unpatriotic.
Another point about Bush was brought out in my first post and further clarified in my last two post. That he is evolved with lying about the number of dead in New Orleans as I discovered by going to New Orleans and talking to locals including a police officer. Also I explained how he had to know ways to save the thousands who died of thirst and hunger and that his act was not just an act of carelessness or incompetence.
I am also standing up to the principles this country was founded on of check and balances and giving every American the right to a fair trial and against unreasonable search and seizure. Now you tell me how that is being unpatriotic. I suspect you confuse being anti Bush as being anti American. Personally I think you have it backwards if only because of ignorance and believing this false proganda about him being an honest caring Christian man. I think that it is Ironic that probably the only honest caring Christian man in decades to be the President was a Democrat Jimmy Carter.
No I have the greatest respect for the pool of fine, patriotic; intelligent educated decent wise men that this country has to draw from. I have been all over this country and have met many great Americans and am proud of my country men. I realize that they will counter act the foolishness and evil of men like Bush and Donald Trump and that we will probably not every get as bad as Nazi Germany. But that is because the wise are aware of threats to the principles this country was founded on which was ways to protect and empower freedom, goodness and equality. Just because I am aware that we probably won't ever get as bad a Nazi Germany does not mean the danger is not here in the country.
In Arkansas a good woods man knows there are the dangers of cotton mouth in the woods. Granted he probably won't ever get bit because he knows how to make noise so he doesn’t surprise one and to avoid where they hide. But that doesn't mean he is not aware of the dangers there. A good political woods man fight the dangers of our country being taken over by an oppressive government that doesn't follow the principles that America was founded on by making Americans aware of oppressive and unconstitutional actions. Once Americans are aware we do stand up to wrongs of our Government. It is one of the principles this country was founded on that make our country great. I am just doing my patriotic duty of pointing out the wrongs of the government that I see.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/28/2006 6:23:31 PM | There are so many wrong points in your posting I dont know where to begin.”
Why are you a self hating American?" First of all I do love myself and I love my country as well. If my points are wrong please explain so I and other readers can learn from your point of perspective and if you are wrong let us exam it so we can point out where you are wrong. But I wonder if the reason you don’t state your points is you doubt whether your points could stand up to debate.
This is too easy.
1. Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. There is no doubt that Saddam had such weapons. Remember he gassed his own people the Kurds. Bush did not lie he simply relied upon the intelligence which was aquired durring the Clinton administration. Everyone in the world agreed that Saddam had these weapons and had to be delt with. Remember the UN resolution that he flaunted for so many years. The US intelligence gathering abilities were decimated by the democratic controled congress for 3 decades following Watergate.
2. The use of US troops in New Orleans. Absurd it is not constitutional to use US toops on US soil. The states have sovereign rights there. Also Bush declared the emergency in New Orleans a full day before the flood began. This was clearly a state and civic screw up.
3. You are absolutely right about the problem of worse militants getting into power through elections in the middle east but militant Islamism had to be confronted at some point. Look at the mess in France and the Netherlands as well as the bombings in Spain which changed the course of their elections. The militants are in the minority but the populace is weak and there fore needed the support of The US and Great Briton. Do not lose site of history as Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler millions of Jews and Frenchmen died. Thank God men like Churchhill and Roosevelt stood up just as Bush and Blair do now.
4. Jimmy Carter is a great man but was a lousy President. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/28/2006 7:45:35 PM | 1. Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. There is no doubt that Saddam had such weapons. Remember he gassed his own people the Kurds. Bush did not lie he simply relied upon the intelligence which was aquired durring the Clinton administration. Everyone in the world agreed that Saddam had these weapons and had to be delt with. Remember the UN resolution that he flaunted for so many years. The US intelligence gathering abilities were decimated by the democratic controled congress for 3 decades following Watergate.
The plans to attack Iraq were first discussed in the initial meetings of the National Security Council, in early 2001 - months before 9/11.
And what happened at President Bush's very first National Security Council meeting is one of O'Neill's most startling revelations.
“From the very beginning, there was a conviction, that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go,” says O’Neill, who adds that going after Saddam was topic "A" 10 days after the inauguration - eight months before Sept. 11.
“From the very first instance, it was about Iraq. It was about what we can do to change this regime,” says Suskind. “Day one, these things were laid and sealed.”
As treasury secretary, O'Neill was a permanent member of the National Security Council. He says in the book he was surprised at the meeting that questions such as "Why Saddam?" and "Why now?" were never asked.
"It was all about finding a way to do it. That was the tone of it. The president saying ‘Go find me a way to do this,’" says O’Neill. “For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do, is a really huge leap.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml
WMD's were the excuse that was needed to justify a decision already made.
If you want to totally destroy this line of defense of the administration, watch this documentary - Uncovered - The Whole Truth About The Iraq War
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5702006622816922747This is too easy.
The intelligence gathering community has been totally subverted by this administration, with a great many people leaving it in disgust.
2. The use of US troops in New Orleans. Absurd it is not constitutional to use US toops on US soil. The states have sovereign rights there. Also Bush declared the emergency in New Orleans a full day before the flood began. This was clearly a state and civic screw up.
Wrong.
It certainly is constitutional to use US troops on US territory - except as police officers. (Posse Comitatus Act)
The Posse Comitatus Act is relatively narrow in its scope. For example, the Act appears to prohibit indirect involvement such as the supply of support, training, intelligence and equipment to civilian law enforcement. But courts have consistently interpreted its language to proscribe only direct military involvement in the execution of laws.
Congress has approved the direct use of military troops during civil disturbances. These provisions grant the President the authority to use military troops to enforce civilian laws where a state has requested assistance or is unable to protect its citizens or property.
The Governor of Louisiana had written the President telling him the situation was out of control.
SATURDAY, AUGUST 27, 2005
The Governor follows Friday's State of Emergency declaration with the first of many Hurricane Katrina-related letters issued to President Bush and other federal officials, urging him to declare a federal State of Emergency for the State of Louisiana under the Stafford Act, which he does. She expects early on that Katrina could be a catastrophic event that would overwhelm State resources, and wants to ensure that Louisiana would receive every form of assistance the federal government could provide.
MONDAY, AUGUST 29, 2005
"We Need Everything You've Got"
Governor Blanco again speaks with President Bush, informing him that she would need every resource possible from the federal government. She recalls telling him, "We need your help. We need everything you've got." Based on their conversation, she believes he understands the urgency of the situation, and has every intention to send all of the resources and assistance within the power of the federal government. From the beginning, she believed and continues to believe President Bush desired to be as helpful as he could be in the face of such an unprecedented catastrophe.
http://www.gov.state.la.us/index.cfm?md=newsroom&tmp=detail&articleID=1523
With those letters from the state's governor, Bush had pretty much total power to use DoD resources under the Stafford Act.
The Stafford Act, 42 USC 5121, et seq, as amended, is the statutory authority for federal domestic disaster assistance. It empowers the President to establish a program for disaster preparedness and response, which the President has delegated to FEMA. The Stafford Act provides procedures for declaring an emergency or major disaster, as well as the type and amount of federal assistance available. The Act authorizes the President to provide DOD assets for relief once he formally declares an emergency or a major disaster. He may also provide DOD assets for emergency work on a limited basis prior to the declaration. DOD policy for providing domestic disaster assistance is contained in DOD Directive 3025.1, Military Support to Civil Authorities. Army policy is found in AR 500-60,Disaster Relief.
Emergencies and Major Disasters
The difference between an emergency and a major disaster is one of duration, severity, and the extent of assistance required. Examples are hurricanes, floods, tornados, storms, tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, landslides, droughts, explosions, or other natural or man-made catastrophes. Emergencies are less severe than major disasters, requiring a shorter time to recover and to provide adequate relief. Both may require federal assistance to augment state and local resources and relief agencies. From a DOD perspective, an emergency and a major disaster may require the same type of work, that is, removal of debris, preservation of health and safety, and restoration of essential services.
http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm100-19/fm100-19_3.html
In fact, that's exactly what was done - far too late.
3. You are absolutely right about the problem of worse militants getting into power through elections in the middle east but militant Islamism had to be confronted at some point. Look at the mess in France and the Netherlands as well as the bombings in Spain which changed the course of their elections. The militants are in the minority but the populace is weak and there fore needed the support of The US and Great Briton. Do not lose site of history as Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler millions of Jews and Frenchmen died. Thank God men like Churchhill and Roosevelt stood up just as Bush and Blair do now.
All those examples of the "mess" you refer to happened after the invasion of Iraq. That radicalized certain Muslims into violent action. That's not a justification for those actions , it's just a fact.
Comparing Bush and Blair to Churchill and Roosevelt is like comparing a child's drawing on a refrigerator to the Mona Lisa.
4. Jimmy Carter is a great man but was a lousy President.
He would have been a fine leader in almost any other country but the USA. Had America listened to his energy policies in the Seventies, much trouble would have been avoided.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/filmmore/ps_energy.html
Read that speech again, from almost THIRTY years ago. He was a visonary. Time has proven that.
Possibly 9/11 could have been avoided too.
This is too easy.
It's even easier to rebutt.
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vivid
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Joined: 6/30/2006
Msg: 98 | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/28/2006 10:23:23 PM | 00Spy...to refer to anyone as a self-hating whatever is disgusting. I get called a self-hating Jew by my Zionist relatives sometimes, so to see someone else refer to their own as such...just disgusts me.
His arguments have merit; yours not only don't have merit, but they lack...humanity. Patriotism when used properly is good for all, but when used as a weapon shows that you neither deserve to love your country, nor do you deserve the citizenship your country gives you. | |
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