| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 1:58:19 AM |
There is no doubt that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction Yes. 15 years ago. Not in 2003.
You seem to be interpreting this thread as an attack on Bush in particular. I see the topic as a question concerning the direction that the entire country is headed, not just the potato in the white house and his puppet masters. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 2:18:51 AM | The plot thickens. For those you new to this thread, three post ago I expose this government cover up about the dead in New Orleans. Eye witness accounts saw two hundred dead at the super dome instead of the six the Government claimed and local reported thousands dead, much higher than reported. I explained that I think Bush knew he could save those people but choose not to. I posted this after two days of no responses on this thread. Then within an hour I get this response that could be consequence but sounded like it could have been a professional propagandist trying to do what he could to bury my last post about the Government cover up. I explained my reason for wondering in my next post. Now we get this person from Canada who calls himself 00spy bringing up side points of mine and not really dealing much with the national security question of our USA constitutional rights and check and balances being taken away and what could result from such actions and a never ending war. Is this just people with opposing view points or are these intelligent agents wasting their time on good citizens expressing different view points. If it is professional propagandist, is that not a perfect example of the type of things fascist do. I don’t want to make it sound like any one who doesn’t agree with me about Fascist infiltrating our Government and being a threat are Fascist like people use to do about communism. I just thought how this unfolded is amusing. Any how 00spy I will give my opinion on the points you claimed were easy to make to prove me wrong.
"Everyone in the world agreed that Saddam had these weapons and had to be dealt with." Then you are saying that everyone in the world was wrong because Saddam did not have the weapons that Bush said he did. I don't believe everyone in the world was wrong. I think you are making that up or are delusional. I don’t say that to be insulting, just calling it as I see it. What Bush did is say he had proof Saddam had weapons of mass destruction but could not come out with it because of national security reasons. He did not say Saddam was likely to have or any thing like that but that he had proof. Proof means there is no doubt. I actually have heard some of these reports and it indicated the weapons may be there but there was no proof. Since he never found any it is reasonable to conclude that there was no proof. Not only that I kept up on this in the news papers over here. He kept saying we will find it and one day he even said they have found them but couldn't come out with details for national security reasons but he will shortly. Then after a while he just stopped talking about it. When no weapons did come up like he claimed the military had found, that is when I realized how much of a bold face liar he was. If he had proof then they would be there. They were not there therefore he did not have proof. Any child in grammar school can understand that. Therefore, yes he lied to manipulate the country into going into a war we may of not otherwise.
I am not going to say taking out Saddam was good for his people or the world. It was. What I am saying is it may have not been good for our country. We are not responsible for the world. We can't take countries over and install our form of government just because we don't like them. That is what Germany did. It is up to the people of any country to deal with their own country. We can go after a country when they threaten our national security. It is in our constitution. I questioned whether all we did with Saddam is to inflame the Muslim population against our country and make it easier to recruit people into the Muslim militants against us. A question is just that, a question and not a statement of fact. A lot of experts are asking the same sort of questions and some have concluded that Bushes push for Democracy on a people who aren’t ready for it is a threat to our national security. Besides Islam really believes in theocracy and not democracy so I question whether they are ready for it. I realize you are Canadian and may not care about what is good for the USA and our national security but I am and most of my country men consider that to be a top priority.
I never said we could not use troops on USA soil. montreal_guy explained it better than me. It is nice to know we have neighbors like him. Any how what I said was why did they not bring the National Guard from day one to keep the peace so the guards didn't have to come in five days latter and gun as many people down. I am not saying the guard did not do their job. I am saying Bush didn't. You said it was the duty of the state. I am not saying Bush was the only one. But I have seen everyone in authority try to avoid their responsibility by pointing the finger else where. First montreal_guy explained why you are wrong and it was the federal government’s job. But apparently you don't understand Americans. In crisis we feel it is all our duty to help Americans and pull together. My point is Bush didn't take advantage of his resources to save thousands of Americans in danger and then they all are lying about how many died down there. That is not American. How would you feel if you had friends died who wouldn't have if Bush would have sent the help needed from day one and this Canadian guy tries to excuse it as not being his job when you know it is. He waited five days which resulted in many deaths. He knew about it from day one. He should have from day one done every thing with in his power and not play politics. Letting thousands die for no good reason is the type of thing Hitler does not American presidents. I just came up with ways I knew those lives could be saved. I knew the experts could come up with better ways than what I said. Yes Bush is not the only murder that is involved with letting thousands die but he is one of them and the one with the most resources to saved lives.
"Thank God men like Churchhill and Roosevelt stood up just as Bush and Blair do now." Yeah right Church hill or Roosevelt would have let the al Quida walk out when they had them cornered in a mountain range. If Bush did his job they may have not had the ability to bomb Europe. But yes us Americans with the help of other good people around the world will deal with the problem in the Middle East and bail the world out again in spite of people like Bush. It will probably take decades like it did with Russia and China but in the end great Americans will deal with it and the Middle East will be better off.
"The US intelligence gathering abilities were decimated by the democratic controled congress for 3 decades following Watergate." I don't believe it was decimated. I know we have some of the finest agents in the world who were talented enough to do their job around the check and balances congress set up. If you would explain what you are talking about with facts it could be addressed. At least that is more on the subject instead of your many distractions to the national security question I presented. I do know congress stopped the actions of certain individuals in the intelligence community from abusing their power and using their authority to go after innocent American they didn't like.
"Jimmy Carter is a great man but was a lousy President." What does that have to do with the point I presented. For those who understand Americans and us Americans it was clear that I was challenging the assertion that the Republicans were the Christian party and made no claim of whether Carter was a good or bad president. Personally I like the Libertarians but I am trying to not make this an us and them thing but an American thing.
Most of the points I have made are really applying High school American Government. I hear of our constitutional rights being taken away, our right to a free trial, our right to privacy, and others. If they take constitutional rights away and check and balances does that not threaten us with the dangers we Americans learn about in High school Government. I am also presenting the point that people who do not believe in the principles America was founded on can through deceit gain office and that they are a danger us Americans need to watch for. I realize as a Canadian you may not get that. But I think a lot of Americans see my point even if they do not agree with every thing I say.
I do apologize. I made an assumption which I should never do. I assumed you were American when I wrote my last post. I thought you were the love her or leave it people. It is not out of hate I am putting up this thread but out of Love for my country. From Billy Bob in Arkansas who talks about those dang pinko liberal communist to the Tesla who created AC power. After all it is the people who make this country what it is. I also have been through a multitude of subcultures and yes I see problems but I think you are all beautiful in your way. I probably know the common man of this country better than most experts and we are a good people. I am just expressing a concern I have heard a lot of us express.
You know if they would have said we are declaring war on the Islamic militants to defend our country and save the people of Islam or something like that then that would have been one thing. But as has been pointed out this war on terrorism will never end and they worded it that way so they could go after any body they didn’t like just by putting a label on them. Besides there will always be terrorist out there so it creates a never ending war so they can excuse suspending American constitutional rights indefinitely. How about dealing with the main point that I and others have made 00spy. You made it sound as if I had no points what so ever and then don’t even cover the most important threat that many of us see. I have enjoyed responding to you 00spy. You really help develope a good plot in this thread. I realize you are probably just a dude but it has been fun giving you a hard time about your name. But it does make one wonder. | |
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vivid
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Joined: 6/30/2006
Msg: 103 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 2:26:47 AM | There is no doubt that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction
Great, another conspiracy theorist. Let's move on, dude, it's over. We know how it went
down. Besides, Bush won't be running in the next election and frankly nobody
cares what he thinks now - he has almost ZERO influence outside America's borders
now. Nobody is listening to him any longer. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 5:28:37 AM |
he has almost ZERO influence outside America's borders
now. Nobody is listening to him any longer.
Indeed. A leader needs credibility when trying to fight the kind of war this war on terror is.
Going into Iraq was a very stupid blunder and has made the world worse.
One of the great things about America was it used to have tremendous moral authority and credibility, Bush has blown that for your country huge.
Gitmo, Iraq, removing your freedoms in the name of national security, etc.
The man is a total and complete mess. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 7:53:18 AM | Where would we be now if America Shrugged in 1917 and 1941?
Perhaps a bad example. In a very real sense, at least directly, America did "shrug" (at least initially) in both those cases.
America entered WW1 almost three years after it started.
America entered WW2 more than two years after it started.
Or how aboout when Kennedy said " All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin. And therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words “Ich bin ein Berliner!”Or when Regan said "Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall"
Thank God that men like these stood up in troubled times, or as Kennedy said "Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men."
Ideology is a wonderful thing. So is rhetoric.
Starting wars all over the planet is not quite on the same playing field as those noble ideas are. Starting a war is easy, and any fool can do it. Many have.
Ending them, and addressing the root causes of why they occur, now that takes some great thinking. | |
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00Spy
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Joined: 5/23/2006
Msg: 106 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 8:14:10 AM |
Perhaps a bad example. In a very real sense, at least directly, America did "shrug" (at least initially) in both those cases.
You fail to see the greater point.
When the US entered WWI the germans had pushed back and were gaining ground on the Western front. The US enters and then the Germans are pushed back and ultimately the Armistice is signed. Would the stalemate have occured if the US had not entered.
Did the US start that war no but it had to clean it up.
But that negotiated peace only led to the more disaterous war of WWII.
Again the US tried to stay out and Europe as well as Pacific Asia fell to tyrants. The US entered and pshed back both.
These was the perfect example.
If the US had truely shrugged where would Europe and Pacific Asia be today?
Amazingly the US engineered the victories on both fronts then rebuilt both Japan and Germany. They did not occupy or rape the natural resources of these nations. This was not Colonialism.
Through free elections and peace these countries are now successful democracies.
By the way do you know how long it took to get free elections in Germany after WWII? | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 8:44:03 AM | You fail to see the greater point. This is because it only exists in your delusions.
You are comparing historical events that occurred 40 to 80 years ago with current events that take place in an entirely different context and for entirely different reasons.
The events that led to the military conflicts you speak of were not fiction made up by bumbling politicians to attempt to save their carreers by appearing to be war heroes.
By the way do you know how long it took to get free elections in Germany after WWII? The Federal Republic of Germany had its first free elections in 1949. And your point is.....
....nothing. | |
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woleh
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Joined: 7/7/2004
Msg: 108 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 9:08:18 AM |
Did the US start that war no but it had to clean it up...
...Again the US tried to stay out and Europe as well as Pacific Asia fell to tyrants. The US entered and pshed back both.
...Amazingly the US engineered the victories on both fronts then rebuilt both Japan and Germany.
It seems you're big time fan of Spielberg.
America - world saver. Most of what America gained from European part of war is a profit and greatest political influence in after the war Europe.
Thanks God it's now over and this influence slowly but steady moving down.
Maybe on american soil some ones still like to see America rule the world, but seems like rest of the world doesn't see this idea as a good one.
On the other hand isn't better for american government put more effort to make America better place to live for own citizens instead of ignoring own problems but hurry to solve problems of others?
They did not occupy or rape the natural resources of these nations. This was not Colonialism.
Yes america did this not in classical historical sense of colonialism.
America just forced world to use in economy printed on american soil the paper, name of which is "american bucks". It is perfectly developed form of neo-colonialism. No one were done it before. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becoming bad?
Posted: 7/29/2006 9:49:42 AM | Please read my posts and look at my position before you make your presumptions. I don't think modern America closely similar to Nazi Germany in the first place. I said that several posts ago. I just didn't spell it out.
So, The Blitkrieg in Poland, like Pearl Harbour, like Korea, like the last 50 yrs that Israel has been repeatably attacked like Kuwait like the Kurds...like 911 these were all the attempts of bumbling politicians trying to save there careers? Only an idiot would make that erroneous logical connection from what I said, so we will be generous and assume the alternative possibility that you are deliberately twisting my post (which is against forum regulations). And its "B-L-I-T-Z-K-R-I-E-G".
911 was not the first time the World trade Center was attacked or did you forget that already? I didn't say it was. What planet are you from?
John Galt was a character in Atlas Shrugged, a book you probably never read and definately did not understand.
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 11:36:31 AM | The plot even thickens more. 00spy has made a move that I hear the propagandist make. To steer the publics view and awareness away from this campaign to take its citizens constitutional rights away and take check and balances away that we have spent over two hundred years to build. It also buried the government conspiracy I present in the last four post of them lying about how many were killed in New Orleans. Notice how that is exactly how a fascist propagandist would work. 00spy is the perfect example. When confronted with this question I presented in my last post he says nothing about it and steers the debate into the Middle East crisis. He knows he can gain support for that. So he directs the argument away from flaws in his logic and the question at hand to create this endless debate away from what I am addressing. I see him do it so skillfully that it does make me wonder if he is just going along with the propagandist or if he is some sort of agent. As I said the plot thickens.
"Going into Iraq was a very stupid blunder and has made the world worse.'" You may be right. I do tend to believe us staying there so long was a blunder as well as well as us not giving it to the UN the authority to take care of it. I have indicated before I am not the one to say how best to fight this war that has been waged on us. We have social science, political and military geniuses in think tanks confronting this question. The one point I do believe is the challenge is to deal with this deep seated hatred the people of the Middle East have towards the western culture as a result of failed policies of the last century. Because of the territorial imperative attacking them results in fueling this hatred. So the challenge is to find ways to dealing the Muslim militants in such a way that does not drag all of the Middle Eastern Muslims into it. We have succeeded with similar situations in Russia and China. Both people had a hatred for western culture and now today have a great respect from western culture and want too learn from us.
What I wonder is why Bush does not listen to what these geniuses have to say. I heard one in a program on public radio accuse Bush of just that and came right out and said that Bushes policies are a threat to our national security. It does make me wonder. He did just let the al Quida (I Realize I may have spelled that wrong.) just walk away when he had them cornered in the mountains. It was as if he wanted this war to drag on by letting the enemy escape.
There is a theory some have. That he used his Muslim contacts to let the al Quida know he would turn his back on a terrorist attack and in that way let 9/11 happen. There are reports of him ignoring the al quida threat that his intelligence community warned him of before 9/11. Also he started the war in Iraq by manipulating the country into this war which has resulted in the territorial imperative and has inflamed the Middle Eastern Muslim world against us. Perhaps he knew he was just sticking his hand into a hornets nest and giving the enemy the perfect propaganda tool to recruit members so this war would drag on. Then he refuses to hand the responsibility of the reconstruction of Iraq to the UN which would help with Iraq issues of feeling like the conquered people and made the people of Iraq feel more like they are being helped by the world. Remember the UN is not just western culture. Perhaps not. Bush does have a history of mismanagement and the only reason people have dealt with him is because of his name. No I don't think Bush is dangerous as Hitler. He is not as smart. But perhaps there is a Fascist genius behind the scenes pulling his strings. Theories are just that. It is something for the intelligence community to explore but I am not trying to create false propaganda.
From day one when I heard about this war on terrorism I knew what some in politics would try. To have unchecked power for them and their rich buddies and undermine the constitution. There are those who don't want the public to have its constitutional rights and give the power for their rich buddies to do what ever they want. I was hoping the rich and powerful who are on our side would be able to counter act these people who are a threat to the constitution and as a result a threat to national security. Rich are like any body. They have their wise, their good, their foolish and evil and all points in between. Same with corporations who are run by all sorts of people. I realize that a problem the wise and the good is they have guns pointed at them from the evil and the foolish so they have to be careful how they deal with evil powerful rich fascist and oppressive rich people who are a real threat to our western culture.
It is not a conspiracy of the rich and powerful as some would have you believe. It is the age old battle between good and evil. Bill Gates seems like a good man. He has a repetition of helping numerous charities. Paul Newman started a food business whose profits feed the poor. Then there is Donald Trump who presents himself as a man who would sell his own mother for a buck and promotes that sort of morality. Lets have some faith that the good and wise can become wealthy and are doing their part. We have our Esters and King Davids.
But realize this. There are those people who are fascist geniuses out there who are bond to be in country our size and they are smart enough to hide from the public and are plotting to over throw the United States of America and take control and because they are geniuses they are a danger. Bush is setting up a scenario where it is just that more likely they could do it. First they would need to become president or get a puppet in the office. Next they need an excuse to declare martial law. Now they can use their ability to spy on any one they want to create a Hoover file and learn who is who. That is being worked on right now. After martial law they use the patriot act to throw any of their opponents in Jail. Then the genius uses his Hoover type file to get who he can control into power. By the time he does this he can kill his opponents in jail and have the power to do what he wants. All he needs is to come up with a brilliant propaganda campaign to keep the public from knowing what he is up to and get the support of the military. By the time the public wakes up it is to late because he has all his people in power and has killed or ran out of the country all the ones who are a threat to him. That is just what I came up with. It scares me what those fascist geniuses are coming up with and what damage they are doing in this country I love.
That is why our founders of America set up the check and balances they did and did not give the executive branch the power to do what they want. To prevent a scenario like I just presented. That is also why we should never disregard their wisdom and take the right to a fair trial away from American citizens and search warrants to search people homes which later was applied to listening on Americans private conversations.
But listen to how 00spy has worked. They get focus on the war and away from the move that is being made to undermine the constitutions. 00spy may now because I confronted him but you will notice he has never said any thing about the main points of this thread and steered the focus of this thread. Perhaps that is what he meant by it is too easy.
I brought up the war to let people know I am not saying we should not deal with the Militant Muslim threat who declared war on us. I am saying that we should not let them win by letting those in power take away our constitutional rights and check and balances over here so that Fascist like them can take power. Don't give up the fight, stand up for you rights. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 1:51:12 PM | "You want me to start narrating what I think of you and your posts? " Sure if you want. The point was not to suppress his opinion. The point was to use his style of argument to point out proganda techniques used to keep the public from examining issues that are against certain political opinions and not use reason and logic. So people will hear what is being said and realize how they are being misled. I was also hoping to keep this on the topic I brought up. If he wants to discuss the Middle East crisis that is fine. But that is not what this thread is about. It is about a domestic issue. Also I never said what I think of him as a person. He may be a great person. I just brought out faults I saw in his style of debate and him not addressing the topic of this thread while attempting to keep the debate on the topic presented.
If you don't like my long post then don't read it. Thats cool. But some do like it dude. I have gotten good responses sent back to me. Besides it is not a simple topic that can be express with a short clever post. That is why I write long post to cover my point.
"And how many times do you have to say "the plot thickens"?? It was just a joke. Lightened up dude.  | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 113 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 6:28:00 PM | and culminated with Regans outspending the Soviets?
The notion that Reagan's defense spending bankrupted the Soviet Union by forcing them to spend excessively on its' military is one of the big (and first) of the neo-con fallacies. The Soviet Union was on a non-stop rollercoaster to collapse well before Reagan took office.
They were out to prove that Capitalism was a better system then communism
They were up to no such thing. The very notion that the US had to ramp up its' defense spending to catch up and keep ahead of Soviet military technology was a total lie initiated by the early neo-cons to rebuild America's fear of Soviet dominance and undo the detente of Nixon/Kissinger. They built it on disinformation that had been developed by the CIA for overseas consumption and knew it was false from the very beginning. | |
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vivid
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Joined: 6/30/2006
Msg: 114 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 6:38:20 PM | The very notion that the US had to ramp up its' defense spending to catch up and keep ahead of Soviet military technology was a total lie initiated by the early neo-cons to rebuild America's fear of Soviet dominance and undo the detente of Nixon/Kissinger. They built it on disinformation that had been developed by the CIA for overseas consumption and knew it was false from the very beginning.
Which makes sense considering the number of nukes they kept building was
enough to wipe out the world multiple times over - this brings up another
question: who was gaining financially with all these redundancies? | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 7:00:57 PM |
ok so the Soviet Union didn't go belly up because they couldn't feed their people and provide them with the luxuries of the west ...then please tell us "Neo Cons" what the hell happened to your glorious Communist Soviet Union?
Your first statement concedes the point that everyone else has been trying to make. Then your question seems like a complete non sequitur. The Soviet Union collapsed for a lot of reasons (Afghanistan, Solidarity movement in Poland, Glasnost, etc.), but there isn't anyone here who is championing that type of totalitarian government. Creating a straw man is a fairly typical tactic of the far right, but this is just ludicrous. | |
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NateC
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Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 116 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 8:17:26 PM | You don't need mine, but you certainly need someone's because all that comes out is verbal diarrhea in text.
And you did backpedal on the USSR debate, all you need to do is go a few steps up; you were busy trying to convince us that the US was the biggest proponent for the collapse of the USSR when in fact it was mostly Russia's because Kruschev and all that came after him were ill equipped to fix Stalin's f**k-ups. But thanks for coming out.
You're a walking propaganda machine, and living proof that while the US isn't the next fascist state at the moment, it very well could become one.
the term self-hating american is a term of moral guilt tripping; you're using it to make someone feel bad for disagreeing with your belief and your faith in your government (and Bush's first win would've shaken my faith if I were American). I mean, for using a term like that, you're no better than Ann Coulter and the non-semetic equivalent of someone like Ariel Sharon or Shimon Peres. | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 117 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/29/2006 9:45:04 PM | I clearly stated that the US was major componant of the fall of the USSR and that there were others.
US policy was not a major component of the collapse of the Soviet Union and neither were the policies of other countries. The Soviet Union collapsed, and it collapsed economically, because of the incredible bureaucratic inefficiency and waste that resulted from domestic policies initiated by Stalin and exascerbated by Brezhnev by essentially undoing the economic gains of Krushchev (USSR's growth rate under Krushchev was one of the highest in the world). Leaders from Andropov through Gorbachev attempted to reverse that trend but, largely because of the depth of Krushchev's stagnant economy, and in part the rapid turn over of leadership between Krushchev and Gorbachev (Andropov 1 1/2 yrs, Chernenko 1+ yrs) it was simply too late to turn the tide.
The early neo-cons would like everyone to believe that America, and they in particular, saved everyone from the "tyranny of the Soviet menace" for their own purposes but it simply isn't true.
Now they are using exactly the same tactics they used during the Soviet era under Reagan and Bush I to create yet another "war" to save our souls under Bush II. Only this time they aim to consolidated their gains and take that control to an entire new level that represents a bigger threat to the world than either the old Soviet Union or radical Islamists could ever present.
edit:
it would be a hoot to see what would happen in the World if America simply withdrew entirely.
If the neo-cons succeed in consolidating their grip on power it would be the best thing the US could do for the world. The economics would be difficult at first but the EU, China and eventually Russia would be able to pick up the slack. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/30/2006 5:20:16 AM | "There are so many wrong points in your posting I don’t know where to begin."
I find it interesting 00spy that you never addressed my main points about why the United States is under the National Security risk of becoming as becoming as bad as Nazi Germany. Actually I am just using Nazi as a worse case scenario and tend to agree that it probably won't become as bad but my main point is we are in danger of losing our freedoms and giving too much power to the government so that they will abuse their power and do things that are comparable to what other fascist and oppressive governments do like let thousands die needlessly in New Orleans and then lied to the public about how many died.
My main point is they are continually taking more and more constitutional freedoms from the people and giving the executive branch unchecked power which is dangerous because those checks were in placed by the founders of the country as a way to protect the people and our government from those who would be a threat. Is the reason you don't address my main point because you know I am right and do not care and want to steer the conversation away from the point of this thread. Any how I am busy for the next day or three so I am will leave it to others. Take care you all and thanks for all the great responses. I have learned a lot.
"Who is John Galt?" Someone put up a post to advertise their web site for a business consulting or something like that on this thread and that name was involved but you probably knew that. It has been removed. Was this your twisted attempt as a sales rep to abuse the privilege given to you to use this service to market their product. Is that the only reason you are on here. Perhaps the trend I notice five six or so post of mine of suspicious post that seemed like be by professional propagandist might just be actually just a marketing plow. There is another problem with this wire tapping and surveillance and spy stuff. What I call the big brother complex. It gets so people start wondering and even thinking for sure that all sorts of people are spies or terrorist or the like. Most people really are just people with all our flaws and perfections.
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 119 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/30/2006 11:16:01 AM | You seem to omit the key ingrediant to a fascist state "The Dictator".
Its hard to be a dictator when you have free election every 4 years.
This is a point brought up early in this thread, I guess you missed it.
It is absolutely unnecessary for a fascist state to be run by a dictator in the classic sense. Such a state could exist as what is commonly termed an "illiberal" democracy (definition below). Ideally it would function as a one-party state for reasons of ease of control but could theoretically function in a two party system.
Technically speaking, an illiberal democracy could be any democracy that is not a liberal democracy. However, the term is almost always used to denote a particularly authoritarian kind of representative democracy, in which the leaders and lawmakers are elected by the people, but tend to be corrupt and often do not respect the law. This has the effect of cutting off the people from real power.
An illiberal democracy is marked by the tension between how a government is selected and how that government behaves. Illiberal democratic governments believe they have a mandate to act in any way they see fit, disregarding laws or the constitution if they desire, as long as they hold regular elections. They often centralize powers both between branches of the national government (violating the separation of powers) and between different levels of government and private associations. The former is more noticeable, the latter more common.
Another characteristic is that the lack of rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of assembly make opposition to the rulers extremely difficult. Television and radio is often controlled by the state and strongly support the regime. Non-governmental organisations may face onerous regulations or simply be prohibited. The regime may use red tape, economic pressure, or even violence against critics."
The US hasn't quite gotten as far as the last paragraph but there are a great many disturbing similarities between the current US gov't and the conditions of the first two paragraphs. They have travelled quite some distance down this road to date. | |
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obliq
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Joined: 6/16/2006
Msg: 120 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/30/2006 11:28:43 AM |
00Spy: You seem to omit the key ingrediant to a fascist state "The Dictator".
We are witnessing the birth of a new totalitarian paradigm. Well, it's not that new. The paradigm is alive and well in The Islamic Republic of Iran.
A group of clerics (who probably never meet in the same room anymore) run the country based on a "mission statement" provided in the Qu'ran. Vacancies are filled either by family or sympathetic imams. A president is elected every five years--I think--by the people and there is a parlaiment. But everything has to be approved by clerical council, just to make everything is "kosher". The candidate must have the permission of the clerical council to even run.
This is a dictatorial regime without a dictator. | |
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00Spy
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Joined: 5/23/2006
Msg: 121 | |
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rks58
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Joined: 1/28/2006
Msg: 122 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/30/2006 11:46:11 AM | just to make everything is "kosher"
"halal" would have been a better choice.
The overall analogy is good. Just replace Islam with corporatism and some "back room" neocons and it pretty much works.
edit:
because the political stucture of the US has not changed since then.
The overall structure has not changed but the level of consolidation of power and the "behind the scenes" puppetmasters have. | |
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vivid
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Joined: 6/30/2006
Msg: 123 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/30/2006 11:48:10 AM | 00Spy;
You seem to omit the key ingrediant to a fascist state "The Dictator".
Its hard to be a dictator when you have free election every 4 years.
Are you crazy?...you can still have a dictator in a democracy. A dictator
ignores the constitution and breaks laws. Doesn't BUSH comes to mind? Or
do you support his ways? You should move to North Korea because you
are not healthy for a democracy. Perhaps you should run for the
Communist Party of Canada. | |
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obliq
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Joined: 6/16/2006
Msg: 124 | |
| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/30/2006 2:28:59 PM | The problem with the new paradigm of totalitarianism: it is about as easy as getting rid of c(o)ckroaches. Kill all you want; they'll make more. Oh, and with the new advents in communication technologies, they'll never all be in the same room at the same time.
A quick review of democratically-elected dictators:
Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of Germany
Saddam Hussein, President of Iraq
Robert Mugabe, President of Zimbabwe
P. W. Botha, President of South Africa
Ferdinand Marcos, President of the Philippines
I'm sure I could find more.
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For the right price, Diebold can make you president. | |
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| Is the USA in danger of becomeing as bad as Nazi Germany
Posted: 7/30/2006 8:15:24 PM | | I don't have a lot of time so I have to write this quickly. I agree with you Leif, but I'll go beyond what you said in your article. First of all, the right and the left are almost the same thing-it's more like the corporate right and the corporate left. If a democrat becomes president policy stays the same. The patriot act has nothing to do with terrorism- it's about stripping us of our remaining civil liberties. Why? because the powers that be know an economic collapse is coming, along with a possible terrorist attack. In order to take advantage of the coming disorder, Haliburton has already built the internment centers for... US. I've got news for you on the poisoned water systems. The drinking water in most cities has been poisoned for almost 50 years with flouride, which is aluminum waste. On the WMD's, I believe the bio and poison gas weapons were moved to Syria before the start of the dreadful war with Iraq. ( By the way, Iraq is being destroyed with depleted uranium and many of our troops over there are likely to get cancer in the coming years.) And last but not least, you were right about our prison system being the largest in the world. But the news gets worse than that. These "nazis" will use the threat of prison to stop all dissent in this country. Now how could they do that?? Well very few people actually know that when a man enters prison and some big city jails, they are usually gang-raped within the first 48 hours. This horror tactic was used against some Vietnam war protesters. Almost everything I just stated in this article can be verified. But don't believe me, look up this information for yourselves-but only if you have the stomach for the horrorifying truth. | |
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