| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/18/2006 6:14:42 PM | " I hate to be a pain the butt. But it looks like some of the people on the site does not know what they are talking about.... From a Person that has served in the Military...And ..Has been to the middle east.....
You should know what you are talking about, before you open your mouth....This war has been going on for more them 2000 years... If you only took your time and read.. You might understand why it is happening...
Look at this way... 2000 years back...... You are jewish,,,And I come to your house and kill your hole family..Because you are jewish... How would you feel then.... Would you stand their, and let me do it over and over until your race was gone... No you would fight back....It would be in your blood, and your kids and their kids... To protect their way of life...." Nate691023
To me, religion is the practice of compassion for all life. The practice. Not the sentiments or the wishes. If my family were killed (which they were, WWII), would I fight back? That is a great question which we all, as Jews, need to ask ourselves. I like to think that I would not kill, but if I did in self defense, it would be a tragedy, not a victory. One I would never wish on any one. If I were to kill, to me, that is a fall from grace. I could never again say, killing my family was wrong, because my statement would be filled with my own guilt. I do have the luxury to feel this way, you are right, not having a gun put to my head at this precise instance, but I do know what it is to struggle and fight for the right to exist. I do know what it is like to have someone hate me so much that they want to kill me. I do know what it is like to feel hands around my neck, and fight for a sip of air. I do know what it is like to be hunted. I still believe that God would not want us to kill each other, as we are all made in his image.
There are many, many Israelis who echo the same sentiments for peace, being in the middle east, a Jew, serving in the army, you know that Israelis do not always agree about everything. As it should be. If I can't say that killing is sometimes justified, would you what? Beat me up? I am sorry we don't agree, but I still wish the best for you.
kaz | |
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Enryk
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Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 27 | |
| Proportionate response justified?????
Posted: 7/19/2006 4:42:56 PM | (((I never argue nonsense, and I'll stick to that policy... even though sometimes is really hard)))
Anyway... we know that there cannot be "proportionate responses". Under the "retaliation" argument the invasion of Afghanistan was the "proportionate response" to September 11... ha.
interesting FACTS:
(from the Times)
THE TOLL
In the nine days since fighting in Lebanon began
315 Lebanese killed
31 Israelis killed
In the 25 days since first Israeli soldier kidnapped in Gaza
93 Palestinians killed
1 Israeli killed
500,000 the number of displaced people in Lebanon, Unicef says
Somewhere else Hezbolah has claimed that only 3 fighters have died... leaving the other 312 as civilian casualties.
Mr Blair backed Israel’s right to defend itself, provided that it “does its best to minimise civilian casualties”, a position matching that of the US. This conflict “started with the kidnap of Israeli soldiers and the bombardment of northern Israel”, he told Sir Menzies Campbell when challenged to say whether it was US policy to tolerate further Israeli military action. Mr Blair mocked Sir Menzies for saying that Britain should call for an “immediate and unconditional ceasefire”. Hezbollah had sent “ in the region of 1,600 rockets into northern Israel”, and while that continued, a “proportionate” response was justified.
I wonder how blind is Justice in this arguments. It seems that her scales are not really balanced here, although her sword is ready.
Robert Fisk wrote from Beirut in the Independent today... (Paradise lost)
But did the tens of thousands of poor who live here deserve this act of mass punishment? For a country that boasts of its pin-point accuracy (Israel) - a doubtful notion in any case, but that's not the issue - what does this act of destruction tell us about Israel? Or about ourselves?
...
These are the tough, brave non-combat soldiers of Kfar Chim, who have been mending power and water lines these past six days to keep Beirut alive.
I knew one of them. "Hello Robert, be quick because I think the Israelis will bomb again but we'll show you everything we can." And they took me through the fires to show me what they could of the wreckage, standing around me to protect me.
And a few hours later, the Israelis did come back, as the men of the small logistics unit were going to bed, and they bombed the barracks and killed 10 soldiers, including those three kind men who looked after me amid the fires of Kfar Chim.
And why?
...
Beirut is to die. It is to be starved of electricity now that the power station in Jiyeh is on fire. No one is to be allowed to keep Beirut alive. So those poor men had to be liquidated.
Proportionate? My arzze!
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/19/2006 5:31:03 PM |
You should know what you are talking about, before you open your mouth....This war has been going on for more them 2000 years... If you only took your time and read.. You might understand why it is happening...
firstly the war has not been going on for two thousand years. two thousand years ago islam did not exist and neither did the state of israel as we know it today, christianity was only six years old and the dominant religion in the region was judaism,, no state, no lslam. no war.
And besides is this really a suitable topic to discuss on a forum given its emotive and devisive percipacity ? | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/20/2006 1:10:14 PM | | Judaism is the oldest of the great monotheist religions and the parent of christianity and islam it started with the first prophet Judah Halevi of Toledo in 1085 and moses Maimonides 1135 Moses received the 10 commandments in 1203 . Islam came later Mohammed is the prophet of islam he accepted the the inspiration of the old testament and claimed to be a successor to Moses although he did not recognise Jesus as God he did recognise him as a prophet. If the violence is to be stopped then a U.N peace keeping force needs to be deployed and kept as a permanent force on the borders if violence continues then nato should become involved and restore order. According to the history channel this could be the beginning of the end the 6/6/06 was the start date i will say the first bit about Israel having another conflict has come true and it started around the right time. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/20/2006 1:21:33 PM | Think I might have added it in this thread before, cba looking back to see, as a non religous type I sneer at all you self justifying religous hating types and slap you with large smelly fish...When will people realise they are all people first and colour and creed second?
Bah at commandments, bah at everything apart from letting people live in peace and harmony.
It was as obvious as a blatantly obvious thing when Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip they were waiting for an extremist government to be elected so they could move with extreme force against palastine....as cold and as brutal as any game as chess, a blind man could have seen it comming. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/20/2006 3:05:26 PM | | I blame the Goverments for stuff like this. The big men at the top make all these decisions and start these wars, an they are never there when the bombs are falling and killing innocent people. If they had to fight themselves they might not jump into it so quick. They don't see the reality of the children and families that are getting hurt. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/20/2006 4:27:15 PM | | Firstly im not religious but i do respect other peoples religious views when they are not trying to force it on you this war has nothing to do with religion israel just want there soldiers back and hezbollah attacked first there are no conspiracy theories or set ups by israel instead of looking on the net for info on these things maybe some of you should spend a bit of time in the middle east and your ideas may change a bit | |
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Enryk
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Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 33 | |
| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/22/2006 6:51:22 AM |
israel just want there soldiers back
Are you sure? If so, could you give us some insight in why they had to destroy all the civil infrastructure possible? From bridges, to power stations including blocks of flats...
The Lebanese are still able to say today "We will build them again"... that is courage, that is patriotism. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/22/2006 7:37:18 PM | | the reason bridges and roads have been destroyed is to stop weapons entering the country and to stop hezbollah moving around freely the blocks of flats were destroyed because they were being used to launch missiles from in order to get a greater range to attack inside israel the lebanese people are not the targets hezbollah are but they are using civillians as cover. The destroying of infrastructure is standard military tactic in order to slow the enemy and cut off supply routes. | |
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Enryk
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Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 35 | |
| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/23/2006 2:47:21 PM | the blocks of flats were destroyed because they were being used to launch missiles from in order to get a greater range to attack inside israel
interesting... just one comment... the blocks of flats are in Beirut (50 miles/ 80km from the Israel border) and the "launch missiles" sites are mainly in southern Lebanon.
See the problem in that bit of your reasoning?
hezbollah ... are using civillians as cover
Could I remind you that hezbollah is also a political force in Lebanon... i.e. part of the social structure of the country, thus Israel is destroying that very same country and ANY civilians who could be around them. It is like saying... let's bomb the Tories or the Republicans. Wikipedia tells us that After the 2005 elections, Hezbollah held 23 seats (up from eight previously) in the 128-member Lebanese Parliament. It also participated for the first time in the Lebanese government that was formed in July 2005. Hezbollah has two ministers in the government, and a third is Hezbollah-endorsed. It is primarily active in the Bekaa Valley, the southern suburbs of Beirut, and southern Lebanon.
Now, as usual Robert Fisk (The Independent) provided us with interesting information *although he has now being harassed from people in the States as anti-semite for providing information like the following.
Friday 21 July
The Israelis have just bombed Khiam prison. An interesting target since this was the jail in which Israel's former proxy militia, the South Lebanon Army (SLA), used to torture male prisoners by attaching electrodes to their penises and female prisoners by electrocuting their breasts. When the Israeli army retreated in 2000, the Hizbollah turned the prison into a museum. Now the evidence of the SLA's cruelty has been erased. Another "terrorist" target.
Let's hope the Zionists do not start considering the good old man as another "terrorist"... he published the other day
Terrorist, terrorist, terrorist. There is something perverse about all this, the slaughter and massive destruction and the self-righteous, constant, cancerous use of the word "terrorist".
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/23/2006 6:58:04 PM | | i would love to know where you get your information from im guessing the internet and the media. Anyway at the time you did not say where the flats were you just asked why the reason being if these locations have been designated military targets and are being used for military operations then they are legitamate targets. Hezbollah`s involvment in politics goes as far as having a couple of seats on the goverment this was arranged by syria when they pulled there troops out. Hezbollah control there own area of the country which they self govern the lebanese goverment do not get involved in there affairs if they did this would have been over and done with now in fact it probably would not have happened. | |
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Enryk
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Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 37 | |
| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/24/2006 3:13:32 PM |
Hezbollah control there own area of the country which they self govern the lebanese goverment do not get involved in there affairs if they did this would have been over and done with now in fact it probably would not have happened.
The Lebanese army is not strong enough to take on Hezbollah and even some factions of the army support or at least are not keen on fighting them at all... end of the story.
i would love to know where you get your information from im guessing the internet and the media.
I normally cite my sources very clearly. Some of the stuff comes from my memories of the 90's (cannot recall earlier political events in middle east before then) and more recent readings. Robert Fisk is THE source to cite here, why? because he is running around Beirut TODAY. His articles are appearing in the Independent (UK) although they are not immediately accessible on the internet, i.e. read the actual paper version. I hope you are not looking for a reason to desqualify my argumentations. In a time where most of the foreigners have left Lebanon, how do you get information about what is going on there? Or should we simply close our eyes and ears to let them "kill each other as they deserve"? | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/24/2006 3:17:01 PM | Remove the illegal state of Israel and replace it with Palestine (the rightful inhabitants.)
Job sorted. | |
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Enryk
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Joined: 12/15/2005
Msg: 39 | |
| Israel v Lebanon........ Open letter
Posted: 7/24/2006 3:33:04 PM | Just came across this one. It was published or commented in a few newspapers around the world. I think it is worth the analysis.
=====================================
Israel, Lebanon, and Palestine
by
Tariq Ali, John Berger, Noam Chomsky, Eduardo Galeano, Naomi Klein, Harold Pinter, Arundhati Roy, José Saramago & Howard Zinn
July 19, 2006
The latest chapter of the conflict between Israel and Palestine began when Israeli forces abducted two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from Gaza. An incident scarcely reported anywhere, except in the Turkish press. The following day the Palestinians took an Israeli soldier prisoner - and proposed a negotiated exchange against prisoners taken by the Israelis - there are approximately 10,000 in Israeli jails.
That this "kidnapping" was considered an outrage, whereas the illegal military occupation of the West Bank and the systematic appropriation of its natural resources - most particularly that of water - by the Israeli Defence (!) Forces is considered a regrettable but realistic fact of life, is typical of the double standards repeatedly employed by the West in face of what has befallen the Palestinians, on the land alloted to them by international agreements, during the last seventy years.
Today outrage follows outrage; makeshift missiles cross sophisticated ones. The latter usually find their target situated where the disinherited and crowded poor live, waiting for what was once called Justice. Both categories of missile rip bodies apart horribly - who but field commanders can forget this for a moment?
Each provocation and counter-provocation is contested and preached over. But the subsequent arguments, accusations and vows, all serve as a distraction in order to divert world attention from a long-term military, economic and geographic practice whose political aim is nothing less than the liquidation of the Palestinian nation.
This has to be said loud and clear for the practice, only half declared and often covert, is advancing fast these days, and, in our opinion, it must be unceasingly and eternally recognised for what it is and resisted. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/24/2006 4:16:15 PM |
Judaism is the oldest of the great monotheist religions and the parent of christianity and islam it started with the first prophet Judah Halevi of Toledo in 1085 and moses Maimonides 1135 Moses received the 10 commandments in 1203 . Islam came later Mohammed is the prophet of islam he accepted the the inspiration of the old testament and claimed to be a successor to Moses although he did not recognise Jesus as God he did recognise him as a prophet..
You might have to clarify your points here because this is a right load of crap!
'Judaism is the oldest of the great monotheist religions and the parent of christianity and islam'
True and accepted fact.
'it started with the first prophet Judah Halevi of Toledo in 1085'
This man wasn't born until 1086
'and moses Maimonides 1135'
Born 1135 - two men who did really well one creating things before he was born and one as a baby!
'Moses received the 10 commandments in 1203'
Wrong - Moses received the ten commandments in the Book of Exodus (First Testament). I think you'll find that is BC not AD and certainly not 1203.
'Islam came later Mohammed is the prophet of islam he accepted the the inspiration of the old testament'
But you just said it was Judah Halevi in 1085 and Moses Maimonides in 1135 - make your mind up. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/28/2006 7:39:07 PM | | It's too easy, the lame allah peeps that think they die doing a car bombing and go to heaven..lmao there own bible doesnt even say that...they think they are fighting a HOLY war for their god...their god is laughing at them..its too bad they are so dumb....Israel,,,,hmmm well we will end up in this one too, but at least we didnt start this one like we started in Iraq....what a mess that is.....oh well keep the chins up and kill the sand s | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/28/2006 7:41:47 PM | | lord you are a dipshit, remove you from your house and replace it with an illegal beaner family what a faggot | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/30/2006 6:42:51 PM | | mr make things up you should learn to check up on what you are talking about instead of making stuff up to prove your right Judah was born in 1085 he died in 1140 moses was born 1135 he died 1204. You need to decide which religion you are on about the Torah is the hebrew name for the law of moses and if you are so clever then you should know the first 5 books have been denied Mosaic authorship and are believed to be a compilation of 4 main sources known as Jahvist ,Elohist,Deuteronomist and Priestly code distinguished from each other by the name used for god language style and internal evidence also a strong influence on judaism may have been Akhenaten other books in judaism are the Talmud and the Gemara. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/30/2006 10:58:25 PM | Not for one minute am I suggesting that I am clever, but a quick search on the 'interweb' produced these. Now I am all for freedom of speech but you have advised someone to check up on what they are talking about, but it would seem that you have not either. I know these may be minor points such as only being a few years out on birthdates, and I do understand that records were not the best kept thing many moons ago, but I think the big one is Moses and the commandments, a good few years out there. Also you stated that Judaism started with Judah Halevi (born c.1075), how would this be possible when it is well documented that it was going well before Jesus was born?
Judah ha-Levi or Judah Halevy, c.1075–1141. Check your dates
Moses Maimonides, Philosopher / Physician / Religious Figure
Born: 30 March 1138
Birthplace: Cordoba, Spain
Died: 13 December 1204
Best Known As: Medieval Jewish philosopher who wrote "Guide of the Perplexed"
Not the Moses who received the commandments from God, that Moses was given them some time between the 13th and 16th centry BC dependant on who you listen to.
Torah is a Hebrew word meaning "teaching," "instruction," or "law". It is the central and most important document of Judaism revered by Jews through the ages. It is written in Hebrew, the oldest Jewish language. It is also called the Law of Moses.
Note also called, not literal translation. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/31/2006 12:08:33 AM | | on the subject of checking dates you may want to check your dates you need to check those centuary datesat no point did i mention bc the only mention of jesus was when i said about Mohammed the Talmud was completed in the 5th century bc and in babylon at the end of the 6th century another thing i would like to point out is the christian calender is wrong it was a mistake made in the calculations so looking things up on the net will give you variations on the dates because the other date for the exodus of the jews from egypt is 1290 also islam is supposed to have started in the year 616 | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/31/2006 12:52:17 AM | | Ok to put it another way, firstly I did say that records were not normally kept upto date many moons ago. Yes you are correct that you did not mention BC but as both Judah and Moses were both born AD and the other Moses was born BC there seemed to be a bit of confusion on your part. A middle ages scholar could not have travelled back in time to stand at the top of Mount Sinai (I am not suggesting for a moment that this is what you meant). As for your last point yes granted 1290 is one of the dates the Exodus may have started but again this would be BC and Islam as a faith C. 622 AD (again I am not trying to be pedantic, I accept there could be variations on the dates). Maybe to give a clearer picture of what you are trying to convey you should add the finishing touches and not make a statement that would seem to be ambigous. It is all very well spouting dates but there is still a requirement to quantify them. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/31/2006 2:53:11 AM | | im not to bothered about the dates i just whent by the info i had at the time maybe i got it wrong maybe you got it wrong maybe the sources got it wrong who knows my original point was the israelis are doing the right thing | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 7/31/2006 2:12:04 PM | | Shame on Israel in their killing of innocents. It seems they are always very brave when fighting opponents that are ill equiped to give a credible defence. It is a bit worrying knowing that they have nuclear weapons! | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 9/23/2008 2:53:49 PM | | hello ia kevin iam not sure if you know about this but the problem between israel and palestine was actually caused in 1920s and 30s when lloyde george was priminister he actually quoted to british army when laurence of arabia was out there he wanted israel for christmas and got it and then there was a meeting there and another person i cant rember his name read out a statement that as of today this is state of israel and declared where new borders and everything would be in the process they actually took some of the arabs land which wasnt theres for the taking and arabs have never forgiven us for doing it a britain carved the whole of the middle east up and as it went through each country i understand how you feel about the groups and funding but the british goverment at that time is actually to blame for mess as we know it know in the middle east. | |
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| Israel v Lebanon........
Posted: 9/23/2008 4:18:23 PM | Slightly off topic but still kinda on topic....
Have any of you seen "Under The Bombs", which was filmed during the 2006 conflict and apart from 4 actors, used real people to play themselves.
I saw it at the film festival and it was pretty damn moving, and for someone who visited the Middle East a lot in the early 90's, quite sad to see all the rubble :( | |
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