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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/27/2006 3:19:29 PM | Hypothesis: God is omnipresent (as well as omnipotent), and part of all things - i.e., God is everywhere.
Corollary: God is present in Hell.
Conclusion: God is Hell, therefore Hell cannot be separate from God. QED | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/27/2006 3:43:52 PM | Thought you might like this:
Excerpted from "The Power of Myth"
Bill Moyers interviews Joseph Campbell
Moyers: And yet one of my favourite myths is the story from Persia that Satan was condemned to hell because he loved God so much.
Campbell: Yes, that's a basic Muslim idea bout Satan being God's greatest lover. There are a number of ways of thinking about Satan, but this is based on the question, Why was Satan thrown into hell? The standard story is that, when God created the angels, he told them to bow to none but himself. Then he created man, whom he regarded as a higher form than the angels, and he asked the angels to serve man. And Satan would not bow to man.
Now this is interpreted in the Christian tradition, as I recall from my boyhood instruction, as being the egotism of Satan. He would not bow to man. But in the Persian story, he could not bow to man because of his love for God - he could bow only to God. God had changed his signals, do you see? But Satan had so committed himself to the first set of signals that he could not violate those, and in his - I don't know if Satan has a heart of not - but in his mind he could not bow to anyone but God, whom he loved. And then God says, "Get out of my sight".
Now the worst of the pains of hell, insofar as hell has been described, is the absence of the Beloved, which is God. So how does Satan sustain the situation in hell? By the memory of the echo of God's voice, when God said, "Go to hell." That is a great sign of love.
Moyers: Well, it's certainly true in life that the greatest hell one can know is to be separated from the one you love. That's why I've like the Persian myth. Satan is God's lover -
Campbell: - and he's separated from God, and that's the real pain of Satan. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/28/2006 2:05:29 AM | | When Adam sinned first off, he died, that is, his friendship with God was comprimised. They could not walk together as friends. That friendship was part of life itself. Life in the heart, in the life of Adam. Adam's heart went blind. Adam lost his richness and ease of living, and eventually lost his body and all memory of good and all contact with God was cutt off in Satan's presence in the underworld. Until at least when Jesus enaged the spirits there after the crucifixion. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/28/2006 2:48:06 PM | To the person who asked "who created the Devil" the answer is man. GOD sent the Arch Angel Michael to Hell to force him to understand GOD's Power. As for Lucifer, I believe he arose out of Pagan faiths, another life energy with a GOD complex, like the Greek and Norse Gods and Egyptian Pharoahs.
The Devil is the name given to the Arch Angel Michael by the prophets who wrote the Bible. Truth be told, by embracing Karma, you can see why GOD would let Original Sin produce a child, as punishment, not unlike the mother's curse "I hope you have a child just like you" Which explains how it got as bad as Lucifer. Now if we could all search for salvation as Michael did, we could be living in Heaven on Earth(Hell) | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/29/2006 4:38:22 PM | I've read that the term "Sheoul" was the (hell) some thought about in the time of Jesus. Some references point to the place outside of the walls of the city of Jerusalem and there they burned their garbage till it was no more. Just a great fire which engulfs all that go in it. But eventually all is burned to nothing. I have a hard time believing in an everlasting "Hell" especially with an all loving God. What's the point of having two eternal dualisms (heaven and hell) what would be the purpose of keeping those in hell around for? Would God go and have peek at them from time to time to see what is going on?.... "Yep they're still burning, better go back to heaven now"! This is a horrible thought! If anything maybe "annialism" would seem just as fearful and terrifying and everlasting. But at least it removes God from being seen as the "Cosmic Marque de Sade". I believe Karl Barth (hopefuly that's who thought it up) as the one who wrote about "das Nietche" or "the nothing", not sure if I spelt it right so forgive me if I spelt it wrong. That is a totally creepy concept! Use your search engimnes and give it a good read!
Happy Hell hunting! | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/30/2006 1:43:39 PM | | Your statement shows a lack of understanding of the Biblical principle of Faith. In John 3:16 it is shown that faith and belief are the bedrocks of Chritianity. Without faith and belief the concept of free-will is null and void. God wanted us to make our own decisions withon our lives. Man is inherently evil by his nature. Satan just provided the impetus to bring out that behavior, because of his hatred of mankind, after his fall. Without faith and belief we would all be little automatons with no will of our own. God has provided a way for mankind to redeem themselves from their fall. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/30/2006 1:48:12 PM | Antithesis to your hypothesis: If God is ominpresent and omnipotent then God can choose to not be somewhere.
Anticorollary: God is not present in Hell; thus part of the punishment for rejection of God is separation from God.
Conclusion: God is not hell, but Hell was created by God to separate those who died in their sin from those who have been redeemed. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/30/2006 6:42:50 PM |
seperation from whose god
Thou shalt not worship false Idols.
Get real, wrong subject.
If GOD is omnipotent and omnipresent, he is part of Hell. Perhaps GOD has evolved as we have. Once upon a time there was a planet that wanted to Create like her Father. Then Michael wished to join. Michael created fire and reincarnation. GOD was angry because GOD creates, and those things destroyed. The Dinasours died. So did the Dragons. Reincarnation was embraced as a tool of punishment. To blame Hell for those who are wicked is unfair. Our Planet is the Daughter of GOD, the Truth. She is your mother as well. If you don't like her, do not treat her with respect, you will be asked to leave. This is where the theory of Martyrdom comes from. We MUST follow GOD's rules if we don't wish to die. Interplanetary travel is forbidden unless we take proper care of the planet we already have. NASA dumps thousands of tonnes of metal garbage into Heaven yearly. We will be wearing gas masks before there is a place in space where we could live. We must take care of our planet.
GOD bless Ethonal. All that i'm saying, is give peace a chance. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/30/2006 7:11:46 PM | Satan was never a lover in the physical cuz spirits dont have physical bodies. Satan never loved god, he was made to serve god, not love him, thats why people were created, good grief, to love god. to freely choose to love god.
I just love it when people act like they know these charactors!! You can't say anyone is really wrong. You don't know if your version of events is correct or not, so quit your bashing. It makes your argument that much weaker. You believe we are here just to love god? And when we die we go to the mind of god? That's kind of how I see it except for the whole god, satan, hell stuff. My question then is, why did this god have to create us and put us here just to love it? Couldn't we have just stayed in its mind and avoid this life altogether? I mean if that's all there is to it, it sounds rather empty and pointless. Your god sounds pretty insecure of himself. He could not find love for himself within himself, so he had to scare a bunch of lower life forms into loving him. Sounds like any abusive relationship. You can't force someone to love you out of fear. Not trying to bash your beliefs, I'm just trying to make sense of it. I love everything with this lifeforce in it (including those of you who don't agree with me)and think it is counter productive to dislike another person just because they have a different take on things. You end up missing out on some good insights that way.
Zentral is no twit. Your calling him one only makes you look like one!
To Mizladyluck--I think there's something to the Gaia theory as well. (I know what you're saying is a little different, but basically the same Earth mother in both theories) But not one of us knows for sure what the deal is exactly. Let's be tolerant.
All that i'm saying, is give peace a chance.
Ditto | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 7/31/2006 1:49:05 PM | | Hell will be the ultimate separation from God, however it is sin in our lives which separates us from God until we confess that sin. Yes, we sin daily so we should be confessing daily. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 8/26/2006 9:19:38 AM | | Zentral is a thoughtful and welcome participant of this forum and has many wonderful qualities that I would love to have in a friend. Perhaps Hell could be separation from such individuals who truly care about others and this experience we call life, like Zentral. | |
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causal
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Joined: 7/22/2006
Msg: 38 | |
| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 8/26/2006 10:04:16 PM | I have plenty of times felt separation from God - it wasn't Hell, sometimes it was damn fun! Other times, yes, it felt like a Hell hole, of course what do we really know of Hell?
So many truly wise posts on this topic that I've just read. I like the point that we are never really separated from God, and I believe it is true. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 8/28/2006 9:57:57 PM | Your testimony has been deleted for one reason or another but I can take a wild guess at what it might have been...
But you have to realise that what you may have experienced, while it may have seemed very real, and very lucid to you, was a personal experience and in no way reflects what may be real for everyone else. We know that the mind, the senses, every single thing that we experience as a result of conscious or subconscious thought or unconscious thought as in dreams can be fooled, or not mesh with what could be called for a better term, concensus reality...even though the effects on our mind may be the same as if we were truly experiencing it.
So "real" in the way you are expressing it is a very subjective term even though you mean it to be a very objective and exclusive term.
Many people have had experiences of Heaven and Hell through meditation, out-of-body experiences, near-death experiences, psychadelic substances, mystical experiences, etc. The reality of such things is, to be sure, subjective.
Who knows...there may be some reality to be had there...but I highly doubt that you nor I has the final word on it. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 8/28/2006 11:47:26 PM | Zentral- I always appreciate your posts, and like your reasoning on this one.
For me, Nature is where I see the Goddess and God most often.
Or rather in Nature I feel most close to the Goddess and God.
Even though I don't subscribe to the notion of "Hell,"
I can say that it would pain me greatly to go to Nature one day,
and not sense the presence of the Goddess and God. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 8/29/2006 2:37:51 AM | | Yeppers. sure is when you start to realize that you are god. Thus to be separated from yourself can split you off and have u in the loony bin. In fact, i think that's why a lotta folks suffer from personality disorder: their spirit has gone for a ride. Usually, when this has happened among indigenous people they'd get a SHAMAN to do a spirit retrieval on the individual. In the modern day we use psychiatrists, however, the problem is they don't understand the role of spirit in healing trauma. Although, i will give credit to some Jungian analysts who built upon Carl Jung's penchant for delving into mythology as a vehicle to fostering communications with his patients. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 8/29/2006 3:53:30 AM |
Campbell: Yes, that's a basic Muslim idea bout Satan being God's greatest lover. There are a number of ways of thinking about Satan, but this is based on the question, Why was Satan thrown into hell? The standard story is that, when God created the angels, he told them to bow to none but himself. Then he created man, whom he regarded as a higher form than the angels, and he asked the angels to serve man. And Satan would not bow to man.
muslims do not believe the devil (satan) was an angel at all they believe he was a Ginn a seperate race similar to mankind. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 8/29/2006 5:55:11 AM | "Your testimony has been deleted for one reason or another "
- After some inquiry, I have received this man's testimony and it does offer a very interesting perspective. Here it is:
Lemme start with;
I use to be into witchcraft. Today they call it 'new age'. Anyways, I wanted to know who God was. I looked up some name that was suppose to be the 'true' name of God. Well, I chanted this name in my head going to sleep. When I woke up, well, because conscious, I was in hell. I didnt realize it at first till I saw the people there; The way they were disfigured, like their skin was turned inside out or something.
Well, I didn't want to see this, so I made myself wakeup(technic I was learning to do from when I was in a deep sleep to remember). Well, I was sort of awake on my bed but I could not move. I couldn't even open my eyes, no matter how hard I tried. It was like a powerful force was holding me down on the bed. Welp, I eventually drifted back to that place.
I walked thru a wooden shack type of home, with lots of disfigured people around. I saw them doing very perverse things to each other; Some were cutting on themselves for some type of sick pleasure. Then I walked over to the window and I saw a lava lake. I could see for miles, like I was looking over the ocean. I believe it was the lake of fire and I was on it in some sort of house floating on top.
Well, later, when I woke up in my bed, I saw someone standing at my dresser; It was a very pretty lady, as I thought; She smiled at me; Then I actually woke up. See, I thought I was awake when I saw the lady, but I wasn't. I believe it was the angel that took me to hell and protected me from it's evil just to see what it was like. I wasn't protected from the feeling of the place though. The feeling was of total aloneness. It was like having absolutely no hope; it was the feeling of being totally seperated from God. I dont wish this place on my worst enemy.
Well, when I got up out of my bed, I was chilled. My soul was frozen. I couldn't even begin to understand what had just happened. Not long after, I became saved.
Robert
Zentral: Though I believe God is Omnipresent and there is no place that He cannot be, it does not suggest the notion that if it be His will and pleasure, that He may not ultimately choose who or what will be found there. There is proof for varying degrees of "Hell" and these actually stem from the Bible. There are other accounts as well of OBE's..which in themselves are not fully reliable BUT: Do I believe in a literal "Lake of Fire?" Yes. Is there a possibility that there are different levels of a "hellish" eternity? I believe-yes. One good book on this topic is Dr. George Ritchie's classic-"Return from Tomorrow."
There is another excellant book on Hell by Peter Ruckerman as well I believe. Both offering very good perspectives in my opinion.
Again, as to the thought that God is everywhere- I would agree that the sovereign presence of God must be present in Hell as it is a structured part of God's realm as well as everything created.
As to the thought that Hell cannot be separation from God, I would strongly disagree....
- If God chooses in a sense to create a "fixed" realm where a disembodied spirit will spend an eternity without the possibilty of any form or kind of relationship or presence from direct contact with Him- He CAN.
God's word states "our sins have separated us from God" and "for the wages of sin is DEATH."
The word death here suggests "spiritual" and a very real separation from God. This is the spiritual sentence from God upon all of mankind in my opinion...but He does provide an escape.
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 8/29/2006 1:53:37 PM | Well with all due respect to the posters alleged experience, having had over a decade of personal experience and over two of study in the Western Esoteric tradition, his description resembles no actual practiced technique other than that a "dabbler" would use which leads me to one of two conclusions. Either number one, the story is true, and basically what he did was give himself either an out-of-body experience or a bad dream of a highly lucid variety to which he ascribed the meaning of "Hell" - and this would be a classic post hoc fallacy; or, as is common in Christian testimonial techniques, there is not enough actual detail of real occult technique to suggest a real background in the occult that couldn't be picked up by someone who hadn't just glanced at a book or two and made up a story to "demonize" new age practices for use in Testimonials.
Sadly that practice is more and more common these days as "Ex-Satanists" pop out of the wood-work but when cornered seem to have next to no knowledge of anything other than the most surface information.
Now I am not saying that is the case with the poster and I am more inclined to say it was the former...
But EVEN IF you had an experience of a place as you describe...you have no good reason to believe it was the literal "Hell" because quite frankly you haven't got enough information to go on... your senses can be fooled...and frankly you haven't evinced enought occult knowledge in your post to convince me that you had clue one where you were in any case...no offense but I have to call it like I see it...there are techniques for determining such from visions and techniques for causing legitimate visions...which you did not describe. If you actually had one, which I increasingly doubt, it was by accident...in any event, according to Hermetic traditions there are plenty of places to see...not just hells. And much of it is just in your own mind...
Magic has also been described, because of its tendancy to produce altered states of consciousness, as a guided form of schizophrenia...you will very likely see and feel many things that appear real. And frankly someone with a consciousness that is inflexible or potentially unhealthy should not have anything to do with it...if you have a rigid view of reality and the universe...steer clear.
As Lon Milo DuQuette, famous occultist said, "it's all in your head, but you have no idea how big your head really is" Now I suppose that may not be the answer you want to hear...
But as I have said before we can believe what we like until we are blue in the face and we can still be wrong. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/2/2006 10:32:17 PM | I suppose to believe my testimony as literal, you would have to believe that their is an actual Hell. All I can tell you is, this place is very real. What I saw and what I felt was far from a dream. Something strong enough to change a persons deep rooted beliefs, could be considered a strong possiblity to a skeptic.
All I can assure anyone of is, that this was beyond the realm of dreams; It had physical substance and had my senses overwhelmed. I will go to my grave believing I went to Hell because it has put somewhat of a scar on my soul.
Lets just say theoretically, if there was an all powerful God, and he took interest in your life, displaying power that you could not contend with, bringing you to a religion devoted to his spiritually inspired word(the bible, and this is my belief), changing your life from a spiraling downfall to an upward momentum you never thought possible, making you aware of this world and the world to come, even this life, thru his word(the bible, my beliefs); things you never even imagined;
would you possibly consider his existence; even the most diehard skeptic?
I did, and I was a diehard skeptic. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/2/2006 10:53:14 PM | Well, I greatly respect your experience and your statement of faith for what it is...and I do not discount it.
I do ask that in light of what I have said you take into account that others may not feel the same way that you do about what you have experienced, nor will they accept or acknowledge the "reality" of it.
I personally have had many spiritual experiences that would be classified to a skeptic as potentially those of a schizophrenic. But as I have noted, magic and the occult tend to produce such, and I take that with a grain of salt and move on. In fact the Diagnoistic Studies Manual (DSM) which is the handbook of defining mental illness had to be redefined to deal with cultural differences in worldviews which defined magical or supernatural ideation as mental illness. It had to or otherwise we would have to commit most people of deep religious faith worldwide for falling into the category of the mentally ill.
As I have said in other threads, as long as, believing as you do, when you come into a public and pluralistic forum as this one you are prepared to acknowledge that your way is not the only way, whether you believe that or not in your heart, so long as you do so to keep the peace, I don't think that you will have any conflict with your neighbours.
My own personal belief is that there is a spiritual dimension to our existence but that it is mostly a mystery to us and we are ill equipped to deal with what lies beyond our physical senses. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/3/2006 9:13:31 AM | I'm agreeing with you mad. Any Doctor can use his or her personal belief system to define another person as mentally ill. a second opinion by a Doctor of your own faith could produce another result.
More often than not, true illness of the mind comes from the Darkest Arts and hard drug use. If the industry of medicine would point it's focus in that direction, there could be a significant difference in the violence we experieince to day.
The prayer On Earth as it is in Heaven is not unlike a spell. Therefore, seperation between Hell and God is only defined by individual biochemical makeups, all spelling is identical. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/6/2006 9:09:58 AM | "I suppose to believe my testimony as literal, you would have to believe that their is an actual Hell. All I can tell you is, this place is very real. What I saw and what I felt was far from a dream. Something strong enough to change a persons deep rooted beliefs, could be considered a strong possiblity to a skeptic.
All I can assure anyone of is, that this was beyond the realm of dreams; It had physical substance and had my senses overwhelmed. I will go to my grave believing I went to Hell because it has put somewhat of a scar on my soul.
Lets just say theoretically, if there was an all powerful God, and he took interest in your life, displaying power that you could not contend with, bringing you to a religion devoted to his spiritually inspired word(the bible, and this is my belief), changing your life from a spiraling downfall to an upward momentum you never thought possible, making you aware of this world and the world to come, even this life, thru his word(the bible, my beliefs); things you never even imagined;
would you possibly consider his existence; even the most diehard skeptic?
I did, and I was a diehard skeptic."
-Thank you Robert for your testimony. God deals with people in different manners. My own experience was strange as well but I place complete trust in the manner which He chose to reveal Himself to me. You and I know the full reality of our experiences as we judge individually for ourselves. I am sure that you like me, are most appreciative of what God has chosen to reveal to each of us.
I have read many testimonies thru the years. One of the ones that resonate strongly (similar to yours) from memory was that of a woman who gave testimony that she died after hemmoraging greatly. She claimed she found herself surrounded by a lake of fire and was able to recognize people that were from her same religious persuasion. She stated that the people were telling her to not make the same mistake as they did. As she observed this, she was given a revelation of the cross of Christ and heard the roaring words telling her to "seek Jesus Christ and His cross or the Hell she left will be her eternity!!" She heard these words from God as she claimed while returning to her body.
Her testimony would definitely be considered as an OBE (Out-of-body experience.)
Of course there was the case of the man who was visiting a dying patient in the hospital and observed as the man (patient) began screaming horribly about the flames he was allegedly experiencing. Personally, I take personal testimonies quite seriously and weigh them in the evidence of my own perceptions of truth. It does not mean that all are necessarily true but it does give me serious "food for thought" so to speak. Just because others may not accept those experiences as true or "revelations from God" does not negate them in any way.
Is Hell separation from God?? This we can all judge for ourselves folks. | |
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