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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/2/2006 10:32:17 PM | I suppose to believe my testimony as literal, you would have to believe that their is an actual Hell. All I can tell you is, this place is very real. What I saw and what I felt was far from a dream. Something strong enough to change a persons deep rooted beliefs, could be considered a strong possiblity to a skeptic.
All I can assure anyone of is, that this was beyond the realm of dreams; It had physical substance and had my senses overwhelmed. I will go to my grave believing I went to Hell because it has put somewhat of a scar on my soul.
Lets just say theoretically, if there was an all powerful God, and he took interest in your life, displaying power that you could not contend with, bringing you to a religion devoted to his spiritually inspired word(the bible, and this is my belief), changing your life from a spiraling downfall to an upward momentum you never thought possible, making you aware of this world and the world to come, even this life, thru his word(the bible, my beliefs); things you never even imagined;
would you possibly consider his existence; even the most diehard skeptic?
I did, and I was a diehard skeptic. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/2/2006 10:53:14 PM | Well, I greatly respect your experience and your statement of faith for what it is...and I do not discount it.
I do ask that in light of what I have said you take into account that others may not feel the same way that you do about what you have experienced, nor will they accept or acknowledge the "reality" of it.
I personally have had many spiritual experiences that would be classified to a skeptic as potentially those of a schizophrenic. But as I have noted, magic and the occult tend to produce such, and I take that with a grain of salt and move on. In fact the Diagnoistic Studies Manual (DSM) which is the handbook of defining mental illness had to be redefined to deal with cultural differences in worldviews which defined magical or supernatural ideation as mental illness. It had to or otherwise we would have to commit most people of deep religious faith worldwide for falling into the category of the mentally ill.
As I have said in other threads, as long as, believing as you do, when you come into a public and pluralistic forum as this one you are prepared to acknowledge that your way is not the only way, whether you believe that or not in your heart, so long as you do so to keep the peace, I don't think that you will have any conflict with your neighbours.
My own personal belief is that there is a spiritual dimension to our existence but that it is mostly a mystery to us and we are ill equipped to deal with what lies beyond our physical senses. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/3/2006 9:13:31 AM | I'm agreeing with you mad. Any Doctor can use his or her personal belief system to define another person as mentally ill. a second opinion by a Doctor of your own faith could produce another result.
More often than not, true illness of the mind comes from the Darkest Arts and hard drug use. If the industry of medicine would point it's focus in that direction, there could be a significant difference in the violence we experieince to day.
The prayer On Earth as it is in Heaven is not unlike a spell. Therefore, seperation between Hell and God is only defined by individual biochemical makeups, all spelling is identical. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/6/2006 9:09:58 AM | "I suppose to believe my testimony as literal, you would have to believe that their is an actual Hell. All I can tell you is, this place is very real. What I saw and what I felt was far from a dream. Something strong enough to change a persons deep rooted beliefs, could be considered a strong possiblity to a skeptic.
All I can assure anyone of is, that this was beyond the realm of dreams; It had physical substance and had my senses overwhelmed. I will go to my grave believing I went to Hell because it has put somewhat of a scar on my soul.
Lets just say theoretically, if there was an all powerful God, and he took interest in your life, displaying power that you could not contend with, bringing you to a religion devoted to his spiritually inspired word(the bible, and this is my belief), changing your life from a spiraling downfall to an upward momentum you never thought possible, making you aware of this world and the world to come, even this life, thru his word(the bible, my beliefs); things you never even imagined;
would you possibly consider his existence; even the most diehard skeptic?
I did, and I was a diehard skeptic."
-Thank you Robert for your testimony. God deals with people in different manners. My own experience was strange as well but I place complete trust in the manner which He chose to reveal Himself to me. You and I know the full reality of our experiences as we judge individually for ourselves. I am sure that you like me, are most appreciative of what God has chosen to reveal to each of us.
I have read many testimonies thru the years. One of the ones that resonate strongly (similar to yours) from memory was that of a woman who gave testimony that she died after hemmoraging greatly. She claimed she found herself surrounded by a lake of fire and was able to recognize people that were from her same religious persuasion. She stated that the people were telling her to not make the same mistake as they did. As she observed this, she was given a revelation of the cross of Christ and heard the roaring words telling her to "seek Jesus Christ and His cross or the Hell she left will be her eternity!!" She heard these words from God as she claimed while returning to her body.
Her testimony would definitely be considered as an OBE (Out-of-body experience.)
Of course there was the case of the man who was visiting a dying patient in the hospital and observed as the man (patient) began screaming horribly about the flames he was allegedly experiencing. Personally, I take personal testimonies quite seriously and weigh them in the evidence of my own perceptions of truth. It does not mean that all are necessarily true but it does give me serious "food for thought" so to speak. Just because others may not accept those experiences as true or "revelations from God" does not negate them in any way.
Is Hell separation from God?? This we can all judge for ourselves folks. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/8/2006 9:54:37 PM | Hell originally only meant death, not punishment by god. It also refers to a valley where some Jews were killed. It is still there and can be visited. When the scriptures were first translated to Greek they used Hell to refer to death...there were other words they could have used, but hell was chosen. This was the same name of the valley.The meaning of hell evolved into punishment by god because of the history of this valley in Israel. The meaning was no doubt corrupted by clergy wanting to use it to control the general population.
This is not a new idea. Plato even spoke of using the wrath of the gods to control society. Sorry all, but the original scriptures did not mention hell as we "know" it. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/9/2006 10:46:12 AM | "Hell originally only meant death, not punishment by god. It also refers to a valley where some Jews were killed. It is still there and can be visited. When the scriptures were first translated to Greek they used Hell to refer to death...there were other words they could have used, but hell was chosen. This was the same name of the valley.The meaning of hell evolved into punishment by god because of the history of this valley in Israel. The meaning was no doubt corrupted by clergy wanting to use it to control the general population.
This is not a new idea. Plato even spoke of using the wrath of the gods to control society. Sorry all, but the original scriptures did not mention hell as we "know" it."
^^^
-Sorry robertray. I would rather heed Christ's words than Plato's any 'ol day.
Jesus Christ spoke more about "Hell" than He did of Heaven actually. The Hebrew "Sheol" and the Greek "Hades" are NOT the grave sir. Here's an excellant article from a very reliable source in my opinion:
What Happens When You Die?
by Chuck Missler
We don't like to think about death. It's not a pleasant subject, and we avoid even discussing it seriously or giving it any diligent study. If our career plans involved a foreign assignment, our desk would be littered with brochures and travel folders as we would try learn all we could about our forthcoming destination. If we were scheduled for an exam that our lives depended upon, we would be studying in earnest. Yet the most certain event in our future is one we try our best to ignore and attempt to relegate to a comfortable distance.
I once suggested to a financial executive (who was about 50 years of age) whom I was traveling with that he probably had less than a thousand weekends left in his life. He was startled! "What do you mean?" he gasped.
"Do the math," I suggested. With an actuarial expectation of about 20 years left in his life, and with nominally 50 weeks/year, that leaves him with about a thousand weekends. (When we say "twenty years," that sounds remote, academic, intangible. When we think of "weekends," it tends to confront us with a more graspable reality!)
Our appointment with death is an absolute certainty - probably our only certainty. It may come sooner than we expect: a car crash, a stray bullet, an unforeseen stroke. We all know of personal examples where death has come suddenly, without warning, without any preparations. When it finally does come, what do we expect it to be like?
Shedding Our Misconceptions
One of the penalties of our casual - or reluctant - attitude about death and dying is that most people are steeped in myths and misconceptions. Almost every commonly held belief is erroneous, misleading, and contrary to what we do know about the subject.
There are numerous books that have been published about "near-death experiences," which at best are less than reliable sources, no matter how well intended. But there are several incidences that we can trust as reliable. Stephen, as he was being stoned, gave us a glimpse:
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. - Acts 7:55,56
So this notion that being greeted by the Lord Himself - at least in his case - is not fanciful. As serious Christians, we can take significant comfort from Stephen's experience. Paul also speaks of a "near-death" type of experience in which he was caught up to paradise. 1 Since this happened 14 years before writing about it to the Corinthians, some scholars believe it may have coincided with his experience at Lystra where he was stoned and dragged out of the city and left for dead. 2 (Whether this was a "near-death" experience or an actual death-and-return, we'll have to wait until we can ask him.)
Messages From the Dark Side
What makes this subject so difficult to research is that most information is not only unreliable, it is the specific focus of deceit by the ultimate Deceiver himself. One of the first mistakes is to look for answers in the wrong places. Channeling, necromancy (attempted communication with the dead), and all forms of commerce with demonic activity are expressly prohibited in the Scripture.3 Even such ostensibly harmless things such as a Ouija board or role-playing parlor games can prove extremely dangerous and are not to be taken lightly.
Satan's deceptions are designed to eliminate any awareness of a coming judgment and accountability, and to promote the perceptions that all roads lead to the same place. (Remember, he is the "prince of this world," and the "prince of the power of the air."4) Don't be among the naïve or impressionable: this is very dangerous territory:
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. - 2 Corinthians 11:13, 14
Also, Jesus warned us to:
Enter ye in at the strait [narrow] gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. - Matthew 7:13-15
If the gate you're relying on is wide, with a large majority taking advantage of it, you've got the wrong gate ! And for many, the truth about death should be terrifying. They will be in for a shocking surprise.
Heaven and Hell
This subject also squarely confronts the issues of Heaven and Hell. Unpleasant. Controversial. And clearly the subject of fanciful folklore in all directions and dimensions.
The Hebrew Sheol, and the Greek Hades, are not the grave. The grave is where the body goes. Sheol and Hades is where the departed spirits go. (For this brief discussion, we'll regard them as equivalent.)
Gehenna, however, is their final disposition. Hades is cast into Gehenna at the end.5 (In fact, their topology appears to be opposites: Hades is presented as geocentric; Gehenna is in "the outer darkness.")
It is significant that Jesus spoke much more about "Hell" than He did about Heaven.6 The very concept of the need for a Savior presupposes the avoidance of the otherwise certain destiny of desolation and eternal punishment. The good news is that you and I are the beneficiaries of a love letter: a letter written in blood on a wooden cross erected in Judea about two thousand years ago and which is the fulcrum of all history and the entire universe. The crucifixion was not a tragedy: it was a crowning achievement. His achievement makes it possible to avoid an otherwise certain destiny.
The Physics of Immortality
There are many in the secular world who do not even take the existence of the "afterlife" seriously. There are many who do, however. Frank J. Tipler, Professor of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University, is a major theoretician in the field of global general relativity, that rarefied branch of physics created by Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose. In pursuing a mathematical model involving the end of the universe, Tipler (a professed atheist) came to two conclusions (one obvious, and one stunning):
1) Using the most advanced and sophisticated methods of modern physics, and relying solely on the rigorous procedures of logic that science demands, he discovered a proof of the existence of God. (You're thinking, "No kidding,****Tracy!")
2) He also now believes that every human being who ever lived will be resurrected from the dead.
He claims to have arrived at these conclusions about God and immortality "in exactly the same way physicists calculate the properties of an electron." (While I personally disagree with much of his published book, this turnabout for a professed atheist is interesting.7 You can learn more about the resurrection from the most important chapter in the Bible: 1 Corinthians 15.)
A far more insightful book is by Erwin Lutzer, One Minute After You Die. He is a truly delightful friend, has pastored the Moody Church in Chicago for over twenty years, and we used his popular book as our point of departure for our current briefing package on this subject. We also explore the intrinsic architecture of man, why he is immortal (saved or not), and we attempt to repair some of the misconceptions about Sheol, Hades and Gehenna, and the real nature of our present physical reality, as well as some of the more problematic issues involved in the "afterlife."
**NOTES**
Sources:
Erwin W. Lutzer, One Minute After You Die, Moody Press, Chicago IL, 1997.
Frank J. Tipler, The Physics of Immortality, Doubleday, New York, NY, 1994.
1. 2 Corinthians 12:4.
2. Acts 14:19-20.
3. Leviticus 19:31; 20:6, 27; Deuteronomy 18:11-22; Isaiah 8:19-20.
4. John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11; Ephesians 2:2.
5. Revelation 20:14.
6. The ratio of references is about 5 to 1.
7. Unless you have an appetite for tensor calculus and differential equations, don't waste your time. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/9/2006 10:42:57 PM | | If one searches the Quaran by topic (available on several websites) you will notice that Hell is one of the topics most often referenced. It was prophesised that the infidels would feel the flames of Hell. It's very interesting. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/10/2006 7:07:06 AM |
Hell is separation from God. A place of darkness and coldness, nothing.
Such conviction, however wrong. One, coldness and darkness implies something. Two, God is omnipresent, therefore he is in Hell as well. If Hell is the separation from God, he would not be omnipresent would he? Christianity, is therefore bunk. Nihil Est Quid. Nothing is at least something. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/10/2006 7:54:12 AM | | Simply Stated : Hell is living in the absence of any spiritual dimension in your life. A person who resides totally in a conscious state void of an higher awareness is living in a hellish state. We all can reside in a "heavenly" state when we realize that our mind not the only way we experience the world....we have in fact lost our way and this heavenly state is attainable... Listen to the words of Siddharta Gautama or Jesus Christ to understand what hell is...it is not a physical place! It is our state of consciousness.....and yes Hell is separation form GOD... | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/10/2006 1:46:52 PM | | It's all to the same end tho, Hell is the punishment of GOD, yet at the same time, she is a constant reminder that he exists. The only way to be free of Hell is through GOD, yet, we may see her differently when we are not banished there. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/10/2006 8:29:53 PM | posted by krathnami:
Such conviction, however wrong. One, coldness and darkness implies something. Two, God is omnipresent, therefore he is in Hell as well. If Hell is the separation from God, he would not be omnipresent would he? Christianity, is therefore bunk. Nihil Est Quid. Nothing is at least something.
God is omnipresent but he is also omnipotent. A God with unlimited power; wouldn't you agree that anything is possible with him then? If so, then wouldn't it be conceivable, that he could make a place that is so far from his presence, that he doesn't dwell there?
It says in the bible that their is a great void separating heaven and hell. The void is so great, nothing can cross it.
About nothing being something; I think it is hard to comprehend a place that is void of anything good. I have experienced this place. That feeling is of total separation from all that is good. It's so strong that it tears at your soul; it's like a huge burden that is never lifted. 'Nothing', in this context, means 'nothing good'.
Hell is total separation from the creator of all things. A horrible place humans were never meant to be apart of. Of course...we all have a choice to make. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/10/2006 9:55:50 PM | According to the scriptures of many holy books on earth, written at various times, it has been good verses evil. We here on this earth do our best to seperate what we call "bad and evil" from "good and righteousness." People act wrong and bad all about us. These behaviors come and go in short temporary spurts we can normally deal with. Like lies, being hit or slaped, verbal abuse, etc. But, when someone commits a severe offense like murder, rape, assult, theft, etc., we send them to a place called prison. What we do here on earth is much like heaven and hell in a spiritual demension "I believe." There is a lot of time and space out there in the expanse of the heavens. We know from the Bible that it told of a war in heaven in which 1/3rd of the heavenly host decided not to follow God. They were given the boot and cast to the earth in a type of spiritual prison. So according to that story, a bit of heaven and hell exists already. We understand from Bible authors that God is suppose to not be about anything evil. Or it to be about him. Yet we have instances in the old testament of God and Satan speaking to each other. We have examples in the new testament of Christ and devils coming across each others paths. The devils seemed to be more in a hurry to be away from Christ than vice versa. In modern day language, negative and positive energy do not align well in theology. When all is done and over with, I believe positive energy shall have it's place and negative energy shall have it's place, or what religions on this earth call heaven and hell.  | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/11/2006 2:18:02 PM | Alaska - Gotta love Les Paul eh? Have you noticed that science is applicable data in regards to Divine intervention. I believe the GOD/Devil positive/negative policy that had previously been applied to the Christian faith changed with the discovery of direct input. Since then the planet Mars (associated with the Devil) has been closer to the Earth and Sun than ever before. Just something this mystic noticed.   | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/11/2006 10:28:30 PM | | To Post 62- I couldn't care less what the Bible or any other holy book says. It's all equivocation to me. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/12/2006 12:01:59 PM | Lets see
check out JOB
and new tastament
demons still have to hold court with got but hell is still NOW
see where jesus walks by and demons beg him not to send them to the abyss? that means that they knew that he damn well could send them there at any time he pleases
see where satan has to hold court before god to get PERMISSION to do all of the shit he did to JOB?
that means they still talk to each other
its a great big competition right now
you see god knows that if he lets them think they are gonna win and then takes them out when they are at their highest thinking that they are superior, its gonna be a longer, harder fall. I would do the same thing to the little ****ers
and that is ok cause remember "love what i love and hate what i hate?"
i personally want to be there to watch when the mother ****ers go down | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/12/2006 1:51:12 PM | Yup, true punishers are GOD's. It was set out in Revelations as well.
I found $20 in the Book of Job once, when my Grandma was dying a couple years ago. The title in the page corner read "To tempt Job". I left it there, but I ran out of money to pay for parking so I could visit her in her last days. I proversly apoligized to Christ and took the money.
I agree with you in a lot of ways Dovetail. Harmagedon (not the American revised Apocalypse) is the foundation of the Judiciary System. It's almost like an undercover investigation, tempting us with the Devil, Satan or Lucifer, or any Pagan "God". He watches, he judges, he passes judgement and either frees us or condemns us. You can find Biblical symetry in almost any metaphor. I like to say that Christ died for a patent. Any pattern that exists was first created by Him. We, made in His image, mimic his behaviours and fall into the tracks of his thought. Of course the other option is to deny reality and pray that your bad guy wins. They never do. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/14/2006 6:07:26 PM | | I use to think that God wasn't in Hell, but apparently he is, just not the way you want Him to be!! | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/17/2006 3:08:15 PM | | According to the word (and my beliefs), Jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day, so he isn't in hell. He took the keys of death from death itself, to bring life to those who choose to accept him. | |
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| Is Hell, Separation from God?
Posted: 9/18/2006 12:32:21 AM | | According to some, yes. It's also a fictional place with a goat man, as well as my first name. | |
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