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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/6/2005 4:58:25 PM | From what I understand, my father's killer did get what was coming to him. I don't know details of how he died, but it happened, which was a good thing. I hope he suffered.
[just a quick question for you though... i've quoted you below for reference... you say that the good people in society would be better off - yet you're willing to stoop to the same level as the man that took your father's life & you think you'd be a better person or a "good person" in societies eyes, than the man that murdered your father? you'd be equally as horrible if you ask me. it just doesn't seem right to me... there's something wrong with people when they say things like that in my eyes because you taking the law into your own hands doesn't obsolve you from the same punishment your father's killer would endure for murdering someone. there is such thing as a "justifiable homicide" but i don't think the example you gave falls under that category. ]
Perhaps it's a sort of dichotomy in me, but yes- i do believe that. I believe that I would have been justified in taking retribution upon the murderer of my father. Would I be a better person? Probably not, but that would be something I'd come to live with. If there was some sort of cosmic karma or whatever that was to come down on me for having done that, I'd accept it. Justifiable retribution supercedes the law, as far as I'm concerned, and i would like for that to be an option for all families who were put through what mine was; I'd like to see that become the law.
[if the man that committed the crime that got him 14 years, served his time, he's entitled to be free when he's completed his sentence. that's how our system works. i don't know the details behind your father's murder but it's neither here nor there at this point... the ultimate crime against him has been committed. it's not just at this level of crime that this sort of thing happens. we have laws that you have to abide by and like it or not, people have rights, criminals too.]
14 years for murder obviously was not nearly enough; the punishment he got most definitely did not fit the crime. He didn't pay his debt to society, and the fact that he killed again is more ammo for my argument that murderers should themselves be executed- no exceptions. The rights of the criminal are emphasized too much, if you ask me.
[heck, we have a lady on the 2nd floor that's committed a number of violent misdemeanors against people in our building yet the police have their hands tied because she won't exit her unit to speak to them... she knows she'll go to jail if she opens the door and she knows they can't break her door down if she doesn't open it because the crimes she commits are misdemeanors. so... what's it gonna take to get her arrested? the police say it will take a felony for them to break down her door and take her by force. what that really means is it's going to take her causing serious bodily harm to someone before the police with intervene forcefully. in no way does this compare to your loss but it's just another example of how people have rights.]
Yes, unfortunately even idiots like her have rights. I'd think that numerous violent misdemeanors would be cause for them to bust her door down and take her away, but sad to say I suppose it isn't...
...well, with my father's killer gone, at least I can be happy in that my tax dollars won't go toward supporting him. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/6/2005 5:37:54 PM | [it's too bad your opinion wouldn't hold up in a court of law... "justifiable retribution supercedes the law, as far as I'm concerned"]
Not today, perhaps, but who knows what the future holds. Giving the victims' families the right to choose the sentence would be a very good thing, as I see it.
As for the first murder that guy committed, I can't present you with the facts because I can't find the record of his case. All I know was what i was told- that he was convicted of murder.
As for our differing positions on crime and punishment, a good analogy can be found in The Brothers Karamazov, by Fyodor Dostoyevsky; that of the perspective of the Grand Inquisitor vs. Jesus Christ. Great, classic novel, with some very poignant insight...
I'd rather you didn't find out for yourself what i've laid out, either- how you'd react to it. I don't wish that on anyone. However, to those who inflict such carnage on innocents, you know what i believe must be done. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/6/2005 6:18:07 PM | [question for you though... do you think that every family that suffers the loss of a loved one, given the opportunity, would choose to incarcerate or put to death, the offender? or... could it be possible to see a victim's family show extreme remorse and allow the perp. to go free? i know of one such case myself... it involved a child who killed a younger child and the victim's mother asked the courts to set the kid who killed her kid free. ]
Very good point. I imagine there would be other families that would choose to free the criminal, in which case I suppose there would have to be a countermeasure the court could default to that would impose a minimum sentence where necessary. That would be the case with the violent felons we discussed earlier, because such criminals most definitely should not be allowed to walk.
If you read The Brothers K, you'd better settle in for a long one because that sucker's over 900 pages. :-) Well worth the time, though, if you ask me. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/6/2005 7:17:19 PM | LOL- yeah, yeah! The barbarians are at the gates, eh? :-)
Next to The Stand, The Brothers K is the longest book I've read, but as with The Stand, my time was well spent. Let me know what you thought of it if you do read it.
Later, and thanks for the debate! :-)
John | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 1:50:04 AM | | Elwood i know that there has been some innocent people put to death. no justice system is perfect. But if a convicted murderur is serving life then why keep him alive? hes not being a productive citizen of our society so why pay tax dollars in feeding and keeping him alive when that money could go to saving innocent lives like feeding the hungry or blowing up terrorists. by not executing him you could just be putting more innocent lives at stake and if a jury of his/her peers finds him guilty without reasonable doubt then kill him/her and get it over with. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 2:56:15 AM |
hes not being a productive citizen of our society so why pay tax dollars in feeding and keeping him alive
Well if money is such a consideration then why not allow those who can afford to pay stay on death row until his/her money runs out?
Maybe you could take the idea one step further and allow a murderer who has capital pay a sum in reparation to the family of his victim and pay for all of the expenses relating to his/her trial then he can be released.
Or perhaps we could charge for murders and price them at such a way as to ensure that the government makes a healthy profit. That way we can turn the criminal justice system into a money-making enterprise rather than having it as a drain on 'tax dollars' | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 7:00:06 AM | i thought slavery was abolished.
Eh????????????????????????????
slavery is alive and well....in USA as well as everywhere else. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 1:06:53 PM |
Eh????????????????????????????
slavery is alive and well....in USA as well as everywhere else
if you think like a slave then you are a slave. its not my problem if you belive your one. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 2:15:49 PM | How did teen death penatly get on slavery???
Anyway, on the question of the day. I am against giving anyone the death penalty. This is for two reasons:
One: I value life and will not support a government that systematically kills people.
Two: this punishment is irreversable. The state cannot take it back if there is a mistake. And I don't trust our justice system to always get capital murder trials correct (or any other trial for that matter). Life in prison with no possibility for parole serves teh same purpose, it's cheaper than keeping someone on Death Row, and it can be reversed if new evidence comes to light.
Very few politicians stand up for this. I'm most upset with the right-to-lifers. Why is not aborting a baby wrong but killing an adult okay? I guess it all has something to do with the timing???
And for the record, we don't do enough about prison rape in this country. I know a lot of people like ot laugh about it. But why should a young man in on a drug charge get a death sentance? When that young man enters prision, he will be systematically raped. Very little is done to prevent it and there is a good likelihood he will contract HIV-AIDS during the rape. So a 3 year stint in the state penn turns into a death sentance. I'd say that qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 2:25:58 PM | | A lot of people view prison and the death penalty only as punishments, and so they consider it just part of the punishment. They don't think the loss of liberty is enough. So, if you get beat up and raped, that's good because it will make prison more of a punishment. The drug users whose only crime was drugs, yep, they are getting royally hosed. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 7:21:27 PM |
One: I value life and will not support a government that systematically kills people. this one made me laugh. I value life to, my life. If the criminals value theirs then they whould stay out of trouble. if they go around killing people then the criminals are just asking to get fried. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 7:44:06 PM | Hiya Swiftie...
How about this guy?
Dennis Williams - 18 years on death row...found innocent through DNA...close one...
http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_2000/tows_past_20000928_c.jhtml
Or Gary Graham in 2000...he was executed/convicted mostly because of one witness who says she saw his face from 30-40 feet away for a few seconds through her car windshield. Two people who got a good look at the assailant said Graham wasn't the guy...but they weren't interviewed by the defense. 3 jurors signed affidavits saying they'd have voted differently had they known.
Or Joseph O'Dell, executed in 1997 despite the existence of DNA evidence that could have proved O'Dell's innocence. But Virginia law says that any evidence found after 21 days is inadmissible in proving the innocence of a convicted person.
Or Robert Nelson Drew executed in 1994...he didn't get a new hearing after another man signed an affidavit in which he confessed to the murder, thereby exonerating Drew.
A few other stats to laugh about...
Since 1972, 114 people have been exonerated on death row.
Since 1987, 8 people who are strongly suspected to have been innocent...have been executed.
The error rate for cases where federal attorney generals have tried to execute individuals is 3.5%. Illinois? 4.5% (up until the governor issued a blanket commutation). | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 8:10:19 PM | Yeah, I thought that was precious too...
See Bulldog? We can laugh at the same things...gimme a hug.
Oh, and of course, the rest of the post (with actual stats and other examples...) is not from that link. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/7/2005 10:52:29 PM | Woodrow i never said it was perfect. There has been and probably will be errors. you say two wrongs dont make a right and i respect that and in some instances i agree, but not this one. Killers need to be killed and DNA is making the error rate go down. Back in the day a woman could be hung or burned at the stake if somone claimed that she was a witch. but keeping killers alive with no remorse or value for other human life or their own is the dumbest thing i can think of. Why keep a killer alive, feed, and quarter him? does that set an example for future killers?
Many killers get off the hook by pleading insanity and thats the major flaw with our current justice system. If i was a judge and a killer claims that he rolls his sh*t in tiny balls and eats crayons pleading insanity then fine, I will put im in a ward and feed him nothing but tiny balls of sh*t and crayons. I bet after a week he will want the injection :) | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/9/2005 6:03:32 AM | No one on here seems to able to really explain why they agree with capital punishment!
It obviously isnt a deterrent, it is more often than not more expensive, it benefits nobody any more than keeping a person locked up does, so what reason is there for killing someone?
It can't be in fear of your own life, because they are locked up behind maximum security?
So then what?
How many people who do agree with it, could be the person who actually kills them?
As has happened if they are found innocent after the fact could you go to a mother or father or child or partner, and say i'm sorry i killed them for no reason?
I honestly find it hard to comprehend how you can be so willing to do something you are condemning other people for doing?
If you truly value human life then you will not want to end it for the sake of revenge. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/9/2005 6:16:39 AM | Completely agree with you, whosyourbadkitty!
I think the thing a lot of people forget is that serial killers who they feel deserve to die the most are more often than not quite happy to die, so it's no punishment!
and those who killed in the heat of the moment will spend all their lives regretting it and paying for it.
To me it is just not worth the risk of killing any innocent people just to make myself feel a little better for a short while, because it never eases the pain of a loved one missing from your life. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/9/2005 6:34:56 AM | Seem to be agreeing with you on pretty much everything!! Have to be careful in case we get accused of chatting!
I think the main thing for me personally is if it's wrong to take a life then it's wrong full stop, and i don't think it's for me to judge others.
Our whole culture seems to look for someone to blame and short term gratification in every area of life, maybe if as a society we were more proactive then there wouldnt be the need for knee jerk reactiveness! | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/9/2005 10:09:49 PM |
I don't think it has to do so much with the timing, as with the intense level of hypocrisy among Christians and conservatives in this country.
That would make sense if every conservative adhered to your caricature of what a conservative is supposed to believe. Once again, with statements like that, you've shown your tendency to ignore any person who doesn't fit nicely into the pigeonhole you have reserved for them. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/9/2005 10:31:46 PM | I'm against abortion for the same reasons I'm against the death penalty. Human life is a precious thing and to do something which might cause the loss of life of an innocent person in either case, I feel is wrong.
My belief is not based on any theological or mythological creeds or codes, just human morality. | |
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