| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/10/2005 10:10:37 AM | Gamer
The basis flaw in your argument is this: putting people to sleep is not humane in the context of criminal justice.
Argument by analogy is always a little a little misleading. What we're aiming to do is have a society wherein people treat each other differently to the way we'd treat an animal. If a human life has any value then the state has to set the example and not stoop to the level of treating people like dogs. | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 128 | |
| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/10/2005 12:17:07 PM | Argument by analogy is always a little a little misleading. What we're aiming to do is have a society wherein people treat each other differently to the way we'd treat an animal. If a human life has any value then the state has to set the example and not stoop to the level of treating people like dogs.
"when people make the descision to act like an animal they must be treated like one." | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/10/2005 12:26:14 PM | | So when we treat someone like an animal, aren't we too acting like animals? I don't understand? | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 130 | |
| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/10/2005 12:58:51 PM | no, we're keeping the animals in their place.
we'll just have to agree to disagree, hon. obviously you find my opinion hard to swallow, as i find yours.
another thing...doesn't it strike you wierd that we call murderous humans "animals"?
animals rarely kill for the pleasure only. that is a human trait. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/10/2005 3:54:04 PM |
that works for me swift... i'll be happy to pay taxes on $165,000.00 to keep someone alive for the rest of their life and you get to pay taxes on those death penalty cases that cost in the neighborhood of 2 million dollars. ;) i'm all for that sort of seperatism
where did you pull the $165,000.00 and the 2 million dollars? pulling random numbers out of your hat without backup is a dumb thing. | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 132 | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 133 | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 6:04:32 AM | | I think the death penalty is a good thing for people that have killed more then one person, serial rapists, child molesters(of couse they already get theres in prison), terrorists. People as always should have a fare hearing and remember on most death penalty cases its not the judge or state that sentances them to death but normally a group of people called a jury can they be wrong yes(look at OJ). Remember a lot of the people they are finding on death row that shouldnt be there are from when forensic testing was just starting and mistakes were made. I have nothing but smypothy for those people and no restatution is ever enough to make up for what they lost. But we also have people out there that are convicted to multiple life sentances for murder and can get out in 12-15 years(one guy in texas by the way) helped em find the bodies of people he killed to stop the wondering of greaving parents. This guy rapped and murderd over 10 people do you really want to meet him walking around on the street. Just my two cents ya all I have some feelings about it going the other way to but in the end mostly I have to be for it. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 6:14:58 AM | | BBates024 - so if the justice system worked properly and life really was life, would you still be for it? | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 136 | |
| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 6:33:18 AM | | i don't thonk its passive it is standing up for what you believe in. and that's always strong. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 6:37:54 AM | Bells, you ask a good question. Because one of my major reasons for not supporting the death penalty is because I don't trust our justice system to get things right. I especially don't trust eye-witnesses and confessions. I used to investigate fraud and I've had training in interogation (the nice term for it is interview). I'm hear to tell you that if you put enough pressure on a person, and that pressure can come in many forms, they will confess to just about anything to get out of that room. And all those measure I'm talking about are tools the police can use. Deception, phony deals, made-up evidence, whatever.
But to answer your question, would I support the death penalty even if I trusted the system? Probably not. My test would be, "is this person so dangerous that he poses a threat to society even if he is locked up for the rest of his life?" But I haven't thought enough on it to really decide if that's a good test. Death is permanent. You can't undo death. | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 138 | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 6:51:28 AM | For me, I agree that there are some crimes which go against everything we as human being believe is decent and right.
We don't have a perfect justice system anywhere in the world, there isnt anything such as perfect and even with the developments being made in forensic science mistakes are being made and will always be made.
But just because our systems are flawed and killers etc are realeased when they shouldnt be, doesnt mean we should kil them when we get the chance, it means we should be fighting for harsher and stricter sentencing that truly represents the crime they have committed.
I believe that sometimes violence can be inevitable but that doesnt make it necessary.
Yes i can say that if someone hurt a member of my family i would want to kill them, but I wont be hurting them by doing that I'll be hurting their family and friends who are innocent.
We've asked how you would feel if it was a member of your family that had been killed, but how about how everyone would feel if it was a member of your family on death row, who you've known all your life as a good person, would you still be able to stand there and say yes they deserve to die?? Would you be able to kill them? | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 140 | |
| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 6:53:30 AM | if they did, beyond a shadow of a doubt commit a truly horrendous crime against an innocent for the pure joy of doing it?
i'd throw the switch myself. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 6:59:06 AM | What about if they did because they wrongly believed it was the right thing to do!?
If they believed it was there only option? | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 142 | |
| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 7:17:23 AM | aaahhh but see then we get into dealing with people that are mentally ill. and that's a whole other issue.
'course, one could argue that all people that kill are mentally ill. (not true)
and one could also argue that murderers would act mentally ill to escape the death penalty.
its a many sided issue.
uncle larrys cat tells him to murder mrs jones next door? lock him up.
uncle larry rapes and stabs mrs jones next door because he can and wanted to? fry him.
and its not all that cut and dry, i know. i wish it was. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 7:41:26 AM | See and that's my problem, when it comes down to it, the choice between locking someone up and killing them can often come down to lawyers and the opinion of one or two professional's.
I dont know about everyone else here but there are times when i have enough trouble understanding my own motives without pretending that i can understand someone elses?! | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 7:53:33 AM | Excellent point Bells.
Plus criminal trials are not the place to find "truth" If you want truth, take a philosophy class. Trials are about manupulating facts and evidence to support your arguement. | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 145 | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 3:08:36 PM | http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~tonya/spring/cap/pro5.htm
im not arguing that a capital trial costs more. my argument was the cost of keeping him/her alive. | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 3:21:15 PM | Okay,first off, swift...
You do know that you linked to a University ph.d student's web page and that those 'opinions' you're citing are simply undergraduate university student papers from the class that she was a T.A. (teaching assistant/phd teacher) for, right?
I mean, not to knock backing up your claims or anything, but we're talking some student essays...not exactly an international thinktank...
And your argument about the capital trial is only a fraction of the cost. The appeals processes are what cost and they're necessary (as you can see from my earlier post about the numbers who are wrongly convicted and the socio-economic reasons for why some are less ably represented than others).
Finally, the jail system has shown there are a number of ways/systems where inmates and the cost of their incarceration can be significantly lowered as well as and through provision of work/training that allows the prisoner to gain skills for use in the outside world. These systems are fast showing to be one of the best tools to stop reoffense.
Oh, and your site? Here's the student class' papers for and against the death penalty...
http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~tonya/spring/cap/group1.htm | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 3:36:05 PM | Woodrow: I definitely think this is much better than the other alternative of the death penalty, which risks killing innocent victims.
One reason it's so hard to be sure someone killed somebody: the victim can't identify the criminal...
We can't even be sure guys like OJ and Scott Peterson did the crimes... It's usually a case built on circumstancial evidence, concerning which there is ALWAYS a chance for error. Of course the chances are small, but how do we know they're not the exceptions?
To those who are in favor of the death penalty: If you're so sure someone committed a murder- would you agree to forfeit YOUR life if you were wrong in saying that?
Think about that one.... | |
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mudbug
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Joined: 2/15/2005
Msg: 149 | |
| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 4:24:20 PM | If you're so sure someone committed a murder- would you agree to forfeit YOUR life if you were wrong in saying that?
isn't that a redundant statement? | |
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| teens and the death penalty
Posted: 3/11/2005 9:22:42 PM | | Jesse James Hollywood finally got caught after four and a half years on the run for ordering the killing of a 14 year old boy here in California...I hope he frys, and yes I'd be more than willing to flip the switch myself while eating a roast beef sandwitch... | |
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