| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/11/2005 9:58:59 PM | mudbug: Uh... I don't see what you mean.
My question meant: if you accused someone of murder and they didn't do it, would you be willing to hang for having unjustly accused them?
My point being that it's very easy to just sit back and accuse people and not worry about the consequences of being wrong if there's nothing to pay for US being wrong. Only the person who is accused loses their life and can't get it back.
I think it would be much different if the lives of the accusers were on the line and we'd think differently about invoking the death penalty. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/11/2005 10:12:25 PM | | Ah, but if a jury condemns a man to prison, and he is innocent, should the jury be jailed, too? It's an interesting question, but our whole legal system is based on it. I'm sure there are many people who are innocent, rotting in prison for life. But, what other options are there? The Amish and Mennonite refuse jury duty, because they say only God can judge. However, the Bible also says "render unto Caesar" which may mean follow the laws and procedures of the secular world. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/11/2005 11:05:17 PM | BM: but the point is: there have been so many innocent people who were convicted that we shouldn't kill anyone. If someone is found guilty of murder, they should indeed be "rotting in prison" for life, or until someone figures out they didn't do it, at which time they would be allowed to go free...
With the death penalty, we can't do that. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 12:23:03 AM | | if i had the choice of life in prison or death id take death. you guys say life is preciouse or whatever but life in prison is hell according to many inmates. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 1:00:00 AM | | No, elwood, the point is that we judge others. The consequences may be different, but the process is the same. If you condemn one, shouldn't you condemn the other? | |
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koiguy
| Joined: 10/21/2004 Msg: 157 | |
| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 5:37:02 AM |
if i had the choice of life in prison or death id take death. you guys say life is preciouse or whatever but life in prison is hell according to many inmates. Then wouldn't life in prison be a better detorent and punishment? Killing these people just let's them off. They do something horrible, and just get to excape having to think about everyday all day while they are sitting in jail. It also gives the innocent time to wurk on their case. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 4:44:19 PM | | bm: because the person who was condemned to die (you're referring here to the victim, I assume) may not have been killed by the other. Didn't you read what we're writing about here? *LOL* | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 4:49:37 PM | | It just cracks me up how one of these maggots take anothers life.. The intimadation, the power, the torture, then snuf look at the dude in Alanta yeasterday four people dead.. These people had lives they had families waiting at home for them wifes, husbands, children..I could see the dude shot a judge a couple cops...But the court reporter? What the hell did the court reporter do shes like totally innocent..And then suddenly they are surrounded by cops and they give up not so tough anymore...are we? Don't feel like pistol whipping anymore 51 year old grandmothers do we? Oh you had a bad life huh? Abused as a child physically? mentally? sexually? yep! So was I and my life has never been normal either in fact it's quite fu*ked up..Still doesn't give me the right to hurt anyone else...Of course I must say thank god I wasn't one of those cops taking that dirty sonofa**** in because he never would have made it to jail...Of course this guy wasn't a kid he was 33 he was a kid to me..Anyone on death rows gonna be sitting there for 10 years at least anyway being supported by the state the taxpayers then most of them get to die by lethel injection...lucky **stards.. Everyone is gonna die no one escapes and lives forever alot of people who have never broken the law die of cancer a suffering tortureous way to go...While these lucky **stards get this painless lethal injection...poor babies.. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 5:30:19 PM | I agree byrd... but what if they've got the wrong guy?
Then the killer goes free, the evidence is destroyed. The wrong person dies.
Are we sure enough all the time to kill the accused?
I think not...
Is it worth keeping the accused alive to protect innocent persons who might be accused?
If Indiana had to set half it's death row inmates free as they did recently, I'd say yes. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 5:52:52 PM | | I'd make sure it's the right guy...Did you hear about Californias release of sex offenders? I believe it was 800 it doesn't seem like alot until you check the megans law website and read what they did to their victims..There's about 50 in my side of town I'm beginning to feel like a prison guard..I followed one the other day that was stalking a female...I guess that's what we gotta do watch them ourselves the state just lets em go..As far as this guy being the right guy..The guys homeless it says that on the website..It has his name, and it's his name..I know the guy.. And then it goes on to say that he used a gun while raping his victims he tortured them, beat them etc.. he even shot and stabbed acouple of his victims..Kinda funny he's an old man can hardly move women have no idea they just think he's a dirty old man...ha,ha,....Of course I bet he thinks he's slick stalking those women watching their commings and goings...And I'm sure he has no idea just about every guy in the neighborhood is watching him, including the law...were all watching him..You gotta take care of your own.. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 6:49:11 PM | byrd... there are over 94 sex offenders in a 3/4 mile radius of my condo and i'm not worried about one of them... i know not to put myself in a vunerable position. i also know where the rapist lives and steer clear of that property. publicly humiliating that person now that he's done the time for his crime would only make me the criminal. once a criminal does his/her time, that's it... stalking him does no good. he's paid for his crime and deserves to live his life in peace at this point. if anyone had reason to be stalking him it should be his victims. and if he had done anything remotely close to warranting the death penalty, he wouldn't be your neighbor. that's not to say i condone his crimes... but if he's that old now... he's probably spent the better part of his life in jail. that man has rights just as you do byrd. funny how the law works.
william... great analogy you set up... i for one would not sit on a jury that might be faced with handing down a death sentence but... let's just say a teenager was convicted of a crime that warrented the death penalty and i was selected for that jury. even without the threat of my life, i would not hand down a death sentence and NO ONE on any jury could sway me of that verdict. and especially if it meant that i would die if we convicted the wrong person. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 9:27:56 PM | whosyourbadkitty, Well the law stinks I know you have great respect for the boys in blue good for you...(oh that rhymed) some of them are o.k. but when you live in the neighborhood that becomes the cities scapegoat and all the sh*t is shoved there and no one really gives a darn, but it's your home.. They may not care but I do and I will be dam*ed before I see a rape committed in my neighborhood.. I stopped one a few years ago, and I'd do it again...I guess if they don't want me following sex offenders around they could spend more time in my neighborhood..Actually Stalking is only stalking when you intend to commit harm on that person.. So I am not stalking the stalker..You watch your neighborhood and I'll watch mine... | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 11:00:48 PM | so now what you're saying byrd, is that a criminal that has done his/her time doesn't deserve to integrate back into society, get on with their life and try to become a productive part of society?
we're taking this way off topic by discussing this in this forum but i figured i'd ask you that one question.
as far as teens and the death penalty go... i've already made it very clear that i couldn't be a part of handing down a death sentence. if a teen committed a murder, did his/her time, it wouldn't be my first pick of people i'd like to have as a neighbor but they have to live somewhere... | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/12/2005 11:27:05 PM | | Yep that's what I'm saying concerning sex offenders since they usually commit the crime again..please don't try to put words in my mouth kitty.. I don't have the police dept. behind me like you do..As far as kids that commit ruthless homicide yea fry them I'm for it..Sorry I got off topic but I'm alittle off anyway, at least I could admit it... | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/13/2005 10:02:18 AM | i didn't put words in your mouth at all byrd... i merely asked you for clarification in the form of a question and you answered... you didn't have to take it a step further and make the police comment byrd. if i've upset you, take it to the email... refrain from making nasty comments about me in the forums. i'd hate to see you get banned for that behavior and i kinda like havin' you around buddy. ;)
i think it's pretty irrational of you to say something as harsh as "fry them"... i'll tell ya why... last week a kid sat next to my son and his buddies at lunch and said "dude, i'm so high", my son was like, "ya whatever, go away" the kid said "dude, i got the munchies." my son said again "ya, whatever, go away" the kid said "hey, you got any pot man?" my son said "no, go away dude, you're buggin' us" the kid sat there for a minute and then walked up to a teacher and told her my son had pot on him and he was high. and for that he was pulled out of class, searched by the police, the assistant principal called me at work, i picked my son up because they weren't sure if he was high, i took him immediately to get a drug test, got the results on friday, and they were a big fat NEGATIVE! my son got rolled up based souly on the statement of that young man, the teacher he reported this to didn't get his name. there are 5,000 kids in my son's high school. funny thing is... my son found him and now he's in the hands of the administration. what's my point you might ask? my point is that had that kid told that teacher my son had a gun... the police would have come, if my son made one wrong move, not knowing what the heck is going on... he'd BE DEAD! why did this kid do this to my kid? i don't know and don't care to know... it was a stupid move on his part as a 9th grader, i know that much... my son is in 11th grade and now this poor kid has half the school wanting to kick his behind!
the same thing can happen with teens that are accused of murder... what if you've got the wrong kid? you can't just go frying kids because someone thought they saw him/her do it. it's a well known fact that eye witnesses are not the best thing to have on your side in a murder case. people's views are distorted, they think they see one thing, when in fact they didn't but it would be too late for that kid you fried if that happend, now wouldn't it. | |
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mudbug
| Joined: 2/15/2005 Msg: 167 | |
| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/13/2005 1:02:48 PM | | i respect your opinion, but i really don't think you can correlate a false pot accusation at a local high school to a murder trial. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/13/2005 2:43:42 PM | | Yea that's alittle off topic.. I was asked my opinion on something and I provided it, fry em it's just my opinion..There used to be alot of mistakes but now there's D.N.A. As far as giving someone alittle sh*t, I'm just giving it back as they started with me I just voiced my opinion, that's all.. What's this "I'd hate to see you get banned." comment? I think you'ld actually like to see me get banned or why else would you make that comment? Must you always be right? | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/13/2005 5:50:03 PM | no byrd... i'm watching people drop like flies around here for the exact reason i shared with you. but... if you don't believe me... continue on. ;) was just tryin' to help a guy out.
mudbug... i know my analogy was way off the whole murder thing but my point is that in today's age people get away with pointing fingers at innocent people all the time and i'd hate to see an innocent teenager put to death for that reason. eyewitnesses are just not reliable. had some kid in the cafeteria been killed that day, that kid could have told the teacher he saw my kid do it... and then the vicious cycle begins. it really is that easy. there is a hightened police presence in my son's school right now due to the drive by shooting of a 17 year old boy at another local high school. so... every accusation is taken extremely serious and people are now starting to play pranks on people because they know it will get them in trouble for sure. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/14/2005 2:43:32 AM | I dont think Who'syourbadkitty's analogy was that off base, it made a very good point which is that quite often all it takes is for someone to make an accusation with no or little evidence and your reputation/life can be adversely affected, in the instance of her son luckily it'll pass in a short time. But other people havent been and arent that lucky | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/14/2005 6:21:05 AM | bells... i'm glad someone is smart enough to get where i'm comin' from ;)
i just thank god my 16 year old son didn't get hurt behind the prank... it could have gone down far worse than it did, that's for sure. he's lucky he has a mom like me that listens to both sides of the story before acting irrationally. and he's lucky that kid didn't tell the teacher something even more stupid than he did... now the school is left to deal with that kid and his parents. hopefully his parents will see the magnitude of the prank he pulled and handle their kid accordingly. i just can't help but to imagine what would have happend had he said my son had a gun... one wrong move and my kid could have been dead in an instant. it's sad to know this is what our society has come to. :( | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/14/2005 1:30:49 PM | | "I'm glad someone is smart enough to get where I'm comming from.." That's good so people that disagree with you are dumb? In your opinion....lol. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/14/2005 6:27:42 PM | I oppose the death penalty because I believe that it is inherently impossible for the justice system to be perfect.
For this reason, all punishments must be reversible.
It's simple. It's logical. And it eliminates a lot of mess religious and philosophical arguments about life that, while enlightening, take away from the question of whether or not the administration of an irreversible punishment is compatible with humanity's flawed nature. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 3/14/2005 9:34:10 PM | | that's not what i meant byrd but if that's how you interpreted what i said, there's nothing i can say to fix that... you said it, not me. just do me a favor and stick to the topic. i'm not here to bash you. i've got bigger fish to fry and i'm in no mood to get banned for chatting again. | |
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| teens and the death penalty Posted: 11/20/2005 8:46:49 PM | sad.
The guy was 17 at the time of his arrest. Two decades too late; even though his age didn't seem to play a role in the screw-up, he would have been saved if it had happened today.
Texas, texas, texas.
Executed man may have been innocent Witness, co-defendant tell newspaper man wasn't guilty
Sunday, November 20, 2005;
HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- Doubts are being cast on the guilt of a Texas man executed more than a dozen years ago after the crime's lone witness recanted and a co-defendant said he allowed his friend to be falsely accused under police pressure, the Houston Chronicle reported Sunday.
Ruben Cantu was 17 in 1984 when he was charged with capital murder in the fatal shooting of a man during an attempted robbery in San Antonio. The victim was shot nine times with a rifle before the gunman unloaded more rounds into the only eyewitness.
The eyewitness, Juan Moreno, told the Chronicle that it wasn't Cantu who shot him. Moreno said he identified Cantu as the killer during his 1985 trial because he felt pressured and was afraid of authorities. (Watch the reporter investigating the case -- 3:16)
Meanwhile, Cantu's co-defendant, David Garza, recently signed a sworn affidavit saying he allowed his friend to be accused, even though Cantu wasn't with him the night of the killing.
Cantu was executed at age 26. He had long professed his innocence.
"Part of me died when he died," said Garza, who was 15 at the time of the murder. "You've got a 17-year-old who went to his grave for something he did not do. Texas murdered an innocent person."
Miriam Ward, forewoman of the jury that convicted Cantu, said the panel's decision was the best they could do based on the information presented during the trial.
"With a little extra work, a little extra effort, maybe we'd have gotten the right information," Ward said. "The bottom line is, an innocent person was put to death for it. We all have our finger in that."
Sam D. Millsap Jr., then the Bexar County district attorney who decided to charge Cantu with capital murder, told the newspaper he never should have sought the death penalty in a case based on testimony from an eyewitness who identified a suspect only after police showed him Cantu's photo three separate times.
On the night of the attack, 19-year-old Moreno and his friend, 25-year-old Pedro Gomez, were sleeping in a house they were helping build for Moreno's brother. Burglars had recently struck, so they were guarding the home, located across the street from the trailer where Cantu lived.
Both were awoken by a pair of teenagers demanding money. The older of the two carried a .22-caliber rifle. Gomez was killed; Moreno was shot but survived.
Afterward, Moreno described his attackers as two Mexican-Americans he thought lived nearby.
After a South San Antonio High School teacher mentioned that students were saying Cantu had done the killing, police showed Moreno photos of five Hispanic men, including Cantu. Moreno, however, did not identify Cantu as his attacker and the case appeared closed.
About four months later, Cantu was involved in a bar shooting that injured an off-duty police officer. Cantu said the shooting erupted over a pool game and that he fired only when the officer flashed a gun and threatened him. The officer later said Cantu shot him four times in an unprovoked attack.
That case against Cantu was dropped.
"There was an overreaction, and some of the evidence may have been tainted. It could not be prosecuted," said former homicide Sgt. Bill Ewell, who oversaw the investigation.
Ewell, a friend of the officer, said the bar shooting prompted him to reopen the Gomez murder case.
He sent a bilingual homicide detective to show Cantu's photo to Moreno for the second time. Moreno still did not identify Cantu.
The next day, Ewell sent out a different bilingual detective who brought Moreno, who was then an illegal immigrant, back to the police station. Moreno was again shown Cantu's photo along with four others. The officer's report indicates that Moreno picked out Cantu, then signed and dated the back of the photo.
But the photo submitted into evidence at trial was not dated on the back, according to trial transcripts. Moreno said he felt compelled to do what police wanted, even though he knew it was wrong.
"The police were sure it was (Cantu) because he had hurt a police officer," Moreno said in a recent interview. "They told me they were certain it was him, and that's why I testified."
Ewell, now retired, told the Chronicle, "I'm confident the right people were prosecuted."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/20/texas.execution.ap/index.html | |
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