|
|
|
|
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/11/2006 9:03:26 PM | Drinking alcohol and Christianity (or any spiritual belief system) have the same goal at their core, which is to have a spiritual experience. Alcoholism is the natural result for those who chase that experience on a regular basis through the use and abuse of alcohol. Christianity and other spiritual systems look for that experience through a process of prayer and meditation with their respective "higher powers".
Reading between the lines of the OP, it appeared to me the author was chasing a spiritual experience before lunch on a weekday and being only 20 years of age stands a good chance of finding out for himself which is truly the worst. | |
|
Banji
|
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 27 | |
| |
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/15/2006 8:26:19 AM | | I don't know if this has been brought up or not. But I've heard alot of cases where a Born again Christian becomes that way after hitting Rock bottom with either Drugs or Booze. Its funny how they find god at the bottom of a Bottle. I know many a morning I'll wake up, clutching my spinning head speaking to God "God I'll never drink again", "God get me to the Toilet" | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/15/2006 10:27:28 AM | 1) cant be taken as "jest" if so it should be in the humor section.
2) Many AA meetings are run and managed by christian groups
3) Alcohol is and addiction whereby you have no choice in participating, you dont have to go to church if you dont want too.
4) Sprituality supports reality and gives foundations to human existence and was devised at time when we didnt have proper justice systems or a big brother style goverments ushering us into the police'd states we are today.
I believe there was a geeza named jesus and he probably did do some cool stuff, but the rest of it seems like chinese whispers to me and therefore not appropriate. I do believe in worshiping the spirit and at the moment thats vodka...lol | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/16/2006 6:51:34 AM | ^^ ^^ ^^
I can't speak for my liver. But as far as Promoting Violence..... I'm a Happy Drunk. I'm Gods gift to Joy when I'm sauced.
I do believe in Miracles. Its very Miraculous I live thru some of the Hangovers I get from Jack & Coke Binges. My Dads been a Heavy Drinker too and Happily married for 42 years.
No Doubt Alcohol takes it's toll on some people but I've never had a problem with it. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/16/2006 7:50:58 AM |
i like that, every time i hear it i get a chuckle. Oh how ponderous it must have been trudging through leviticus and grasping its jewels of knowledge and i balk at every nuiance u recieved from skimming the passages of the new testament.
That's quite an assumption. You know what they say about assumptions right? Never assume. It makes an ass of you and me :). I've read the entire fiction novel. Wasn't bad, though the history was a little sketchy :p.
How many times did u read it? From front cover to back cover like a regular book, lol. thats not how u read it.
Multiple times. I've read it both front to back and passages at a time. I've gone to catholic school and I know exactly what I believe (or in this case, don't). Further, as an atheist I don't believe the bible is any more accurate or important to humanity then the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
How many years did u spend studying to know something that u dont believe in? hahahahahaha. geeez.
Only the wisest and most foolish of men never change. Learning is never bad, even if you disagree with what you study and learn about. Knowledge is power, and it's necessary for the good of humanity for people to speak out against religious fanatacism.
Well since u, snicker, thoroughly understand what u dont believe in id sit u down beside someone who studied for 14yrs anyday and your trickle of understanding wont hold water.
Actually my 'trickle' of understanding holds quite well, thanks. My beliefs are the product of rational thought - not delusions taught to me by some person seeking power and status. No one asks me for money because of my stance. Nobody asks me to trade my life of today (that you must concede exists) for a life of tomorrow (which, you belief exists, I don't).
alcoholism rots your liver, messes your life, kills you, promotes violence, breaks up families.. etc
Religion rots your mind, hinders social progress, promotes violence, breaks up families and nations.
Doubt me? How about the holy crusades sanctioned by the church? What about the pedophile priests? How about the inquisitions? The church has always put down scientific progresss, such that the technology of Rome was not matched again for nearly a thousand years in the western world.
The church makes one person superior to another. One set of beliefs more important than another. If you doubt this, check the laws in any religious country. They always require their religions code of conduct to be followed, as opposed to any truly free country which allows people to CHOOSE what beliefs they wish to pursue. Religion removes choice and stagnates potential, alcohol does the same.
The difference is that we seek to help alcoholics. We don't seem to help religious fanatics, and that's sad.
Atheism, if there ever is such a thing, gives no comfort whatsoever besides the vain belief that it will be alright no matter what the person does. Theres no worker of miracles it doesnt promote goodness and love, etc
So, your argument is we should only believe what gives us comfort? Interesting logic. Atheism by the way is not a 'thing'. It is the opinion that there is no god. We choose to use rational minds and thought instead of delusions.
Besides, the point that a religious man is happier then a skeptic is no more relevant than the point that a drunk man is happier then a sober one. Deluding our reality does not change what the reality is, it only changes the perception that we have.
Furthermore, the morals that I live by promote equality, helping each other, social progress, working united as a society. Has it occured to you that most social programs fall to the left on the political spectrum and yet all religious fanatics back the extreme right which wants to lower taxes and take away from socially driven programs? Rather hypocritical don't you think? Oh my bad, I forgot, you aren't thinking.
Christianity, promotes goodness and love, gets ppl off addictions, gives peace of mind even at time of death, etc, etc, etc.
I forgot. I'm sure the three thousand turks murdered in a single afternoon after they surrendered was good and love. The pope supported it though, they were muslims. How about the inquisition? The Knights Templar? Their entire wealth was taken from them and they were systematically tortured and executed with the backing of the pope and the King of France, a christian man.
Furthermore, alcohol gives people peace of mind. So does marijuana, or any other narcotic. If someone switches to alcohol to marijuana, they aren't necessarily better off. It's substituting one addiction and need for another.
I find it amusing that you've failed to note the irony in switching from alcoholism to religion. It's natural the two go hand in hand - you change on type of delusion that hurts your body and shows physical results for one that destroys your mind and you never see it.
So in that order, alcoholism, atheism and christianity.
Atheism can't even be compared.
By your OWN logic atheism offers nothing to people in the way of comfort and delusion, whereas both alcohol and christianity do. How can you compare the two? You can't, but you're grasping at straws, and it's okay though, maybe in your 'next life' you'll be better at this whole debating thing.
That was easy, im surprised it was even a question or u just trying to show how smart u are lol. I soooo rock at this religion forum :)
It was a rhetorical question. The answer is clearly christianity is worse. Alcoholism just kills physical cells, religion creates wounds that never heal on a metaphysical level.
And I admit - you are like a rock, free falling towards the ground. Right along side the beliefs you hold when you hit rockbottom and forgo rational thought in favor of comfort.
-Pyke | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/16/2006 9:43:49 PM | | Hmmm. And all this time I was thinking that atheism and alcohol had alot in common. It seems like so many who reject God like Hemmingway turn to the solace that alcohol brings and then they end up dying as bitter old drunks. In fact, we could probably make a list of atheists and others who ignored God and ended up as bitter old drunks. Shall we? | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/16/2006 10:12:53 PM | The point that religious men are happier then skeptics is no more relevant than a drunk man is happier then a sober one.
It is absolutely irrelevant if an atheist turns to alcohol or not. Let's ignore the fact that there's absolutely no statistical evidence that the majority of atheists become drunks (because it flat out is no more true then the statement the majority of christians become pedophiles), but go with the argument anyway.
If you're hypothesis is true, atheists do not believe in god, and so they turn to the solace of alcohol.
Now, since your premise is because they're rejected god, this would imply that religion is also a source of solace to people.
This means that they can choose either religion or christianity as a source of solace.
Clearly atheism, by your own argument, is not a source of solace, not comparable to alcohol, and at worse can be argued to be a potential cause of alcoholism, but, as aforementioned, you have no statistical evidence to support that and it's an unlikely claim.
Thanks for proving my point though.
-Pyke | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/17/2006 11:40:28 PM | | Dear Mr. Pyke, well you certainly read more in my post than I intended on being there..lol. I read your profile Pyke. You are a self-confessed idealist. Many atheists are. You take great pride in yourself and pat yourself on the back for preying on Christians who are freshmen or have no college education. I know the type. Such a person would not dare set foot in a true Christian apologetics forum where they would be overmatched. This forum is full of such. Perhaps all atheists do not end up bitter drunks, but most idealists end up bitter disillusionists. Good luck to you Mr. Pyke. If God decides He wants you, you will find all the proof you need. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 6:43:47 AM |
Dear Mr. Pyke, well you certainly read more in my post than I intended on being there..lol.
This is not an information rich medium. I can only go based on what you wrote.
I read your profile Pyke. You are a self-confessed idealist. Many atheists are.
Many christians are idealists too. The desire to see the world a better place is something that transcends cultures and religions, the problem is that atheists tend to have humanistic views. We have no reason not to strive for a better world, it's the only one we have. That's not true of christians (or other sects), so the number is smaller perhaps; on a relative scale.
That being said, I don't think being an atheist specifically affected my idealism, but anyway.
You take great pride in yourself and pat yourself on the back for preying on Christians who are freshmen or have no college education.
I'm going into my 3rd year of University. I don't "prey" on anyone. I rationalize and discuss with whomever desires it, be they graduates or students like myself. When people get together and discuss things like religion, it's amazing how many holes open.
Furthermore, christianity prays on children, and I'm not even talking about the pedophiles here. Christianity starts 'converting' and 'saving' individuals when they are too young to distinguish between fact and fiction, tell the difference between Santa Claus and their parents. At least I talk to people who have been educated and have the ability to process on their own what I have said.
I know the type. Such a person would not dare set foot in a true Christian apologetics forum where they would be overmatched.
Really? So tell me, where would you like me to go? Priests? Cardinals? Theologists? Whom? I can and will debate them and would not be overmatched in the least. There are people brighter then me, so while it is possible I can be outmaneuvered, fortunately: A) Most of them don't believe in something as rediculous as a god, B) Most of them are not fanatical in their beliefs, at least not enough to truly care if someone is atheist or not.
This forum is full of such. Perhaps all atheists do not end up bitter drunks, but most idealists end up bitter disillusionists.
Again, the point that a religious man is happier then a skeptic is no more relevant than a drunk man is happier then a sober one. I don't need a false sense of security for my happiness, you do. That's your weakness, not mine.
Good luck to you Mr. Pyke.
Since this was, though likely a little sarcastic, at least reasonably polite; I will wish you well in your endeavours. Not that the action itself has any influence on whether your endeavours will be good or not, it makes people feel nice and I have a feeling you like the added sense of security.
If God decides He wants you, you will find all the proof you need.
Which does not concern me because, as aforementioned, I don't believe in god.
----
And OT: The fact remains that religion is a security blanket to people. It is used to reassure and comfort them much like alcohol is hence why the comparison is valid. I agree alcoholism is negative but I also view religion in extreme as dangerous.
Most would agree that alcohol consumed socially is okay as long as you are responsible about it, I think the same is equally true of christianity and religion. People who have their own spiritual beliefs but do not let it influence the governance of the state or the betterment of humanity are not the people I am refering to.
Additionally, I find it mildly amusing that everyone is appalled I would compare christianity to alcoholism and then cites that it's the atheists that are "more likely" (in their minds) to become alcoholics then Christians. What is amusing about this is they fail to see the irony that atheists, according to their logic, need the extra comfort since they don't have religion.
By that standard, religion provides the same comforts and security of alcohol, and actually more, otherwise religious individuals would choose alcohol over religion ;). Alcoholism is clearly worse ;) | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 10:17:59 AM | "Christianity starts 'converting' and 'saving' individuals when they are too young to distinguish between fact and fiction, tell the difference between Santa Claus and their parents. At least I talk to people who have been educated and have the ability to process on their own what I have said."
Hey I don't know about you Mr. Pyke but I'm quite happy to have been baptized and even happier my dad threw me off the end of a dock at 18 months ... nothing like the refreshment of a good swim. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 10:34:05 AM | The method of delusion I find to be the worst is when people are constantly trying to define everything.How can any religion be fit into some neat and tidy little box?When it comes to atheism,people have there reasons for denying the existance of God.For some,its because of bad experiences in life,whereas for another it may be because of their scientific beliefs in evolution.When it comes to "Christianity" that is such a loose term meant to encompass so many different beliefs where one of the common threads is a belief in Christ.I dont believe that anything that anyone chooses to believe in,is a delusion if its faith based,or their beliefs are arrived at after careful consideration,and not due to some bizarre cult like brainwashing.LOL Im a Christian and my boyfriend is an atheist.The only thing I find delusional is a lack of respect and acceptance for anothers views and opinions,and that there is only one right way for all.A disease usually implies some sort of suffering and sickness.When a person is content with their life,and their beliefs,it usually brings a sense of peace and contentment...Therefore the two really cant be compared.JMHO | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 10:48:28 AM |
The method of delusion I find to be the worst is when people are constantly trying to define everything.
So scientific progress, out?
How can any religion be fit into some neat and tidy little box?
Ask your priest about the 4th century convention where the bible's present edition was formed, and about the other stories that didn't make the cut.
When it comes to atheism,people have there reasons for denying the existance of God.
Except, we're not denying anything. There's nothing to deny, except when we are discussing with someone who makes the premise that there is, and for the purposes of refuting it we must accept their premise. I don't need to deny the tooth fairy's existence, neither do you. It's accepted and known.
For some,its because of bad experiences in life,whereas for another it may be because of their scientific beliefs in evolution.
Uh...typically bad experiences would lead to a) alcohol, b) drugs, or c) religion. Why? Either an escape from the pain, or a support mechanism to explain the pain. Atheism offers none of this, so I'm pretty confident that's wrong.
And I would say most people who are atheists rank god somewhere about as likely as being them being the sun of father time and the daughter of that attractive star in alpha-centauri. Scientific belief is unrelated, unless you mean to tell me you use it to verify Santa Claus and the North Pole's existence v. not?
When it comes to "Christianity" that is such a loose term meant to encompass so many different beliefs where one of the common threads is a belief in Christ.
It is a term I use to describe someone who believes Jesus Christ was the son of a god. There's no confusion on that point, and I refer to all of them inclusively.
I dont believe that anything that anyone chooses to believe in,is a delusion if its faith based,or their beliefs are arrived at after careful consideration,and not due to some bizarre cult like brainwashing.
And this is where we disagree. All people are born with ten fingers and ten toes, and none are born with a knowledge of god.
In fact, it goes back to the idea of Ambrose Bierce.
Infidel, noun.
"In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does."
If you had been born in Israel, odds are you'd be jewish. In Syria, Muslim. To atheist/agnostic parents, atheist. Of course, you can evaluate rationally and become a disbeliever (or a believer) on your own without your parents, *but* how many muslim children become christians? Or jewish children become muslims? Converting faiths is rare. Why? It's brainwashed into us at a young age. Disbelief is simply seeing the light through the fog.
LOL Im a Christian and my boyfriend is an atheist.
I feel sorry for your boyfriend. No self-respecting atheist could be with someone as polarized to reality as yourself. I'm sure you're a nice person, but religion is too integral into people's lives...
The only thing I find delusional is a lack of respect and acceptance for anothers views and opinions,and that there is only one right way for all.
Not all beliefs are made equal. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
A disease usually implies some sort of suffering and sickness.
Which I consider religion, and in this thread, specifically Christianity.
When a person is content with their life,and their beliefs,it usually brings a sense of peace and contentment...
And being high does too from what I've heard. As does being drunk, though I wouldn't know as I don't consume that much alcohol or do drugs.
Therefore the two really cant be compared.JMHO
Of course they can be compared. One makes you content via a liquid, the other via talk.
It's simply the way you way you choose to injest your narcotic of choice. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 10:49:34 AM | Hey OP.
I'm not sure why you would find it insulting for anyone to compare anything.
You have made a comparison yourself.
Is in not resonable for people to converse and do some deeper thinking without feeling threatened by others views?
At the end of the day we all live with oursleves, our choices, and our opinions.
No one can change those but you. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 11:02:37 AM | | ^^Woah buddy..Youve managed to misconstrue everything I was trying to convey.Firstly,my father is an atheist,my mother was catholic,one bro is agnostic,the other Christian and my sis is wiccan.We all get along just fine.Do you feel sorry for my father for marrying a woman as amazingly beautiful as my mother was?Im sure you wouldve considered her views polarized too...sigh....I dont even like labelling anyone merely based on their religios belief system because we are all so much more than that:)What Im trying to say is that religion and what we all choose to believe in isnt as easily definable as the original post made it seem to be.Its nice to read the definitions from websters dictionary or as defined by a book in a university,but there is so much individualtiy to the ways we all arrive at our own beliefs.Science is not out of the question for me at all.Ive studied evolution,physics and a zillion other things that are scientifically related.The thing is though,at the end of the day,Im guided by my love for God and my faith,which isnt something I can define in words,as my faith is more of a quiet understanding that is beyond my human comprehention at times.I wouldnt waste your time feeling sorry for my boyfriend.The thing that brought us together in the first place is our ability to respect one anothers views,be loving twards one another,discuss our opinions without being judgemental ,and having a tremendous amount of respect for one another as individuals.I respectfully disagree with you that extrordinary claims always require backup evidence.Sometimes faith overrides that.Ive never been the type to require evidence or signs and wonders in every situation.Sometimes being led by your heart is the most beautiful thing in the world.Understanding and definition does have its place in life...but being so insulting and defensive twards anothers views sucks corn dogs.Why judge me and all that I am based on one post?.I consider that pretty closed minded:)Have a nice day,kat | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 11:03:24 AM |
Hey OP.
I'm not sure why you would find it insulting for anyone to compare anything.
You have made a comparison yourself.
Is in not resonable for people to converse and do some deeper thinking without feeling threatened by others views?
At the end of the day we all live with oursleves, our choices, and our opinions.
No one can change those but you
Depends on what the comparison is.
You can clearly show a correlation between alcoholism and christianity in terms of similiar benefits and effects, it's effectively just another take on Karl Marx's famous quote, "Religion is the opiate of the masses."
It's done for the purposes of discussion and not exclusively to be offensive.
Within that context, yes I can take a comparison, though if the comparison is senseless or simply to attempt to throw gas on the fire (which, while my first post wasn't well detailed, my 3rd one explained exactly what I meant), then it's a little different. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 1:57:12 PM | Christianity v. Alcoholism: which is worse?
Wow that is a loaded question!
Well lets see. Christians in Americe don't have that much to worry about. I mean, some do get killed for there faith here in America but nothing like over seas. Then on the other hand Christians also kill. Same for alcoholism though. Drunks kill and drunks get killed. There are so many scenarios following both subjects that I don't think I.m gonna touch that.
But let's talk about the true meaning of Christianity and the true meaning of alcoholism. Jesus was the perfect Christian and well theres no perfect drunk. So under what Christianity truly means I would have to say that getting drunk is very immoral(I just think of all the stupid things I have done while I was drunk). But being a true Christian you would never do anything to harm or offend anyone so I think I will go with the Alcoholism as being the wrong of the two.
I mean this was an obvious answer but I'll play along because I love to hear different veiws on everything. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 3:59:21 PM | | do you not find it ironic that christianity or God is actually what aa teaches is the answer to the problem of alcoholism.. they also state that the whole purpose of their book is to lead the alcoholic to a relationship with their higher power who they say that the person will soon come to call God.. and guess what?.. it works...lol | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 6:11:55 PM | No, it does not.
The effect of AAA on the recovery rate of alcoholism? 5%.
Without? 5%. (P&T statistics.)
Relying on religion to recover from alcoholism is a complete waste of time, not to mention that in many cases pertaining substance abuse in the US., a violation of human rights and liberty. | |
|
| |
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 10:47:32 PM | | melodic... how would you actually know... you drink so unless you are saying that you are an alcoholic and aa didn't work for you then you have never tried to quit drinking through aa or any other means so you have no idea if aa works or not..i need to edit this as what you said was aaa does not work as opposed to aa and you are right.. the american automobile association has a very poor rate on treating alcoholism | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/18/2006 11:56:23 PM | | Mr. Pyke, though it is hard to have a dialogue with someone who speaks in monologues like yourself, I will at least try. You say people are not born with a knowledge of God. Not true. Helen Keller lost her sight and hearing at about 16 months old due to scarlet fever (or something like that. An illness at any rate). It took years and years for any communication to be established with her. Once there was basic communication and understanding going on, someone decided it may be a good idea to tell her about God. When they communicated this to her, her reply was "I have always known about Him. I just didn't know what you called Him". Now someone like yourself Pyke, would probably have some absurd notion that this was planted into her before she lost her sight and hearing. The rest of us know better. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/19/2006 8:38:49 AM | Hellen Keller, someone who was blind and deaf believed in the concept of there being a greater power does not prove a thing.
Want to know why? She suffered enormous loss. She was also a brilliant mind, despite her hearing and sight losses, and therefore she compensated by finding a justification for her state of affairs in life.
If you are blind and deaf and have no reason to be that way, how can you explain why you are so unfortunate? The *concept* of a protective being that watches over us has biological roots.
As such, when trying to find an explanation for her state of affairs in life, she was able to rationalize the concept of there being a higher power without ever being taught it; because in her unique case it was necessary. The delusion allowed her to survive.
She was NOT however born with such knowledge, no more so then you can be born with the knowledge of how to ride a bike or do algebra. They are things you learn.
Oh and, RDToo; I have no need for absurd notions, you bring quiet enough for the both of us. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/19/2006 9:17:55 AM | | Pyke, I figured you would provide some explanation that seemed rational to you. That is fine. What bothers me is that unlike other atheists you have so far shown zero sense of humor on these forums. On another thread you called Christianity the greatest threat to the world. Do you realize this is not far from how Hitler thought of the Jews or Bin Laden thinks of Western Civilization? If you had said it in a snide or sarcastic voice it would be different. But I think you actually believe this. | |
|
| Christianity v. Alchoholism: Which is worse?
Posted: 8/19/2006 9:18:23 AM | melodic... how would you actually know... you drink so unless you are saying that you are an alcoholic and aa didn't work for you...
Uh-uh. Ad hominem's are not allowed.
(Is it just me, or does it seems that this section of the forum commits the most logical fallacies? I never had a need to exercise my logics until now :P)
I already cited the source, though you seem to imply based on what's included in your quote that I took those numbers straight out of a cow's ass. I can understand why you'd have trouble finding evidence in contrary towards Alcoholic anonymous considering it's a program used to enforce alcohol policies in the U.S government. Go check Penn & Teller's on ebay and they'll give you a few sources where these statistics has already been found. Unfortunately the circulation of that bit of information seems to be impeded.
| |
|
|
|
Home
login 
