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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/17/2008 7:18:53 AM | | so want to travel exactly why do you care so much about the church to the point that you have supposedly dug up what you believe to be the beginning of all churches cough bullcrap cough?Also if you don't follow any religion then how can you determine what has and what has not got to do with the teachings of the Bible?Do you follow Jesus?Do you believe in him as being our Saviour who died on the cross for all mankind?Also please define "mainstream"for me as you use it in your first sentence. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/17/2008 7:25:33 AM | | I really don't know what you guys have been smoking in your peacepipes lately but taurus you need a reality check and you need to just breathe man.You are passing judgements and throwing around accusations on the pretense you happen to know what you are talking about but you don't and that is sad because you are doing this under the disquise of it being an open forum where you can post your opinion.Also timber wolf God is waiting on you because you turned your back on him,he did not turn his back on you.Come home timber wolf. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/17/2008 8:16:45 AM | timber wolf said:
But also i was a member sense i was a small lad and i was forced to go i hated it then one day we had the fire and my father was on strike lost the insurance on the house so we went to the church for help but if u know or if u dont know a church dose not pay taxes at all the money the church gets is for the repairs,maintaince the food for the preacher also for his living exspences he's got it made now with all this money they gets where is it realy going if it is not to help the member's.
Yes, I know that most churches are covered under 501-c as non-profit and non-taxable organizations. As for where the money goes, I can only speak for my own Catholic parish church, but there's a financial report published every year. Weekly expenses are about $11,000 (although that also includes the parochial school). Aside from electricity and maintenance, money goes to the beautifying of the church (new stained glass, vestments, statuary, chalices, etc.), incense and candlewax, to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul (kind of like the Catholic version of the Salvation Army), to the Knights of Columbus, to the local seminary, to relief organizations in the third world, to our sister churches also in the third world, to the organist and choirmaster, and to the archdiocese. However, the priest and deacons do NOT get any money from the parish church directly. They're salaried by the archdiocese.
I don't know exactly where your former church's money goes, of course, but it probably goes to many more places than just the maintenance.
Now the only way to get help you have to at least been in that church for so much time and how many times you have donated your hard worked money so the church can pay of every thing including the living exspences for the preacher.
That sounds like a fair and reasonable expectation to me.
but i will get of that subject now the other reason is to believe in a god or gods and bow down and worship some thing and pray for healing, money, a new car chances is u wont get it and why because it is false a made believe god a dilousion to be believe that that if you pray it will happen i must of pray seval times growing up not one pray ever came true .
And that's your choice. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/18/2008 2:53:57 AM | The individuals found within the membership of a particular doctrine, are often as divergent as the different doctrines are . While I do not agree with either the doctrines of Roman Catholicism or charismatic Pentecostalism, I know members of both faiths that are what I consider Christians. Also, I know members of both faiths ( all faiths really), who I suspect would probaly be more at home with different faiths or perhaps none at all.
As far as Rc goes, many are born into the faith and simply change their views as they age and start to " question". . Many Pentecostals are attracted to that faith I find, because of the " emotional rush " they recieve".
My ex was a Roman Catholic, yet never understood any of doctrine believed by the church. Yet to this day considers herself a RC even though very few of her beliefs are compatable with Catholic doctrine. For her, it was something she was simply born into, and cannot change, like being born French. On the other hand , I know a Catholic who has a lot more knowledge about protestant doctrines than I do, for her it is a choice .
Pentecostals I find, do tend to attract those seeking an emotional charge so to speak . So it makes sense that when the emotional " high " wears off, they are dissapointed and leave Christianity all together. How ever, not all are like that, as I know some charismatics as well who are very grounded in their faith on an intellectual basis that far surpasses my own feeble understandings.
On one hand, we have peolple born into a religion , made a Catholic from a baptism as an infant , prior to any understanding of these matters, and on the other hand we have people attracted to a doctrine for the emotional release they find. If, one is a particular faith simply because they were born into it, I can understand why they would leave as they age and 'questions ' arise in their mind. Also, i can understand how when the emotional high wears off, why people leave their faith if that is all they seek from it.
When questions arise, if they have nothing to base their belief on but being " born " into the faith, or emotion , I can understand why they would leave that faith. Understand very well, as I have been in both "schools" so to speak, even though have never been either an RC or charismatic.
Just my opinion anyway. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/18/2008 4:11:18 AM | dunrich said:
My ex was a Roman Catholic, yet never understood any of doctrine believed by the church. Yet to this day considers herself a RC even though very few of her beliefs are compatable with Catholic doctrine. For her, it was something she was simply born into, and cannot change, like being born French. On the other hand , I know a Catholic who has a lot more knowledge about protestant doctrines than I do, for her it is a choice .
That reminds me of a conversation I was sitting in a while back at a house party. The subject of religion came up for one reason or another and this older Hispanic Vietnam veteran said "you're not really Catholic unless you're born Catholic". I didn't say anything at the time, but that both bewildered me to no end and made my head feel like exploding. The comment made no sense in light of the fact that the particular parish I attend is made up about 60% of first-generation converts, including the priest (a former Church of England minister) and myself; and that we baptize many new adult members every year. There's also the fact some cardinals of today and the past are converts, such as Cardinal Arinze of Nigeria today and Cardinal John Henry Newman of Victorian Britain.
As for myself, I have a hard time understanding why some people feel so ingrained from birth that Catholicism is inherited like an ethnicity. But if I try to talk about things like basic Catholic doctrine or liturgy, they have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. More often than not, these people were not actually "raised Catholic" in the sense that they received any kind of solid intellectual instruction in matters of the Catholic religion, despite how Catholics have a long history of intellectual thinkers and philosophers. As "hardcore Catholic" as they claim to have been raised, they don't know anything about the Latin language or who Saint So-and-so is, or sometimes not even a simple parable of Christ's. In fact, I have to admit, it sometimes feels as though we're actually part of two different religions since our actual beliefs are so different from each other. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/20/2008 2:56:29 AM | Jacobus 10 has described Catholicism to a tee when he states , "In fact, I have to admit, it sometimes feels as though we're actually part of two different religions since our actual beliefs are so different from each other" , I think. The Catholicism shown to me by my ex, and what I have learned since then, is almost 2 different religions.
A few years ago I was incapicatated for several months after an accident. Having to waste all those months laying around, I started to watch a lot of religous shows on tv. Was very surprised to discover that the show that preached the closest to my own personal interpretation of what Christianity should be, was actually a show produced by the Roman Catholic Church. It was called " Our Daily Bread " , if I remember right. Yet here I was , raised fundementalist, had turned agnostic ,then had returned to have faith but perhaps in a very different and evolved way than my early beliefs. Was quite surprsied at that.
What was preached on that show, what a Catholic I know from New Orleans has shown me, is so different from my preconcieved notions about what Catholics believe and how they relate to the Lord. Yet, all those 22 years of living with a Catholic had only enforced those preconcieved notions that I had developed about Catholicism, during my marriage.
In my opinion, it is the way it should be though. One day, if we have to account for what we have done in this life, it is the individual who will stand before God and account , not the church or affiliation that person belonged to , if you believe that there will be a " judgement " day.
LOL, I have no doubt whatsoever that the good Priests who taught about Christs love on that show, the Christ like love shown me by my Catholic freind down in New Orleans, will have an easier time of it that day than my own self on that day., if and when it comes to pass. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/20/2008 4:03:52 PM | Well, I think a catholic is never really a catholic until they receive the sacrament of Confirmation.
Babies don't have a choice about being baptiized but a young adult can choose if they want to continue. I was never confirmed because I knew religion wasn't for me. I imagine that could also depend onpossible family pressure though.
I wouldn't consider myself an ex-catholic/christian but rather I would say I was raised catholic/christian.
Sometimes I wonder if it's more a cultural thing than a religious thing. I was visiting a Brasilian friend once and for whatever reason I had asked her if she went to a catholic school growing up in Sao Paulo. She gave me a strange look. Her english wasn't that great and she had to have her boyfriend translate better. She said, " OOOOH, they are ALL catholic schools in Brasil"!
She and her boyfriend (from Peru) are non practicing but do identify themselves as catholic. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/20/2008 7:56:05 PM | silvertoneftw! said:
Well, I think a catholic is never really a catholic until they receive the sacrament of Confirmation.
Sorta.
In the earliest years of the Church, all Christians were converts. They were first baptized, and immediately after that, they were confirmed with holy oil. Hence, baptism and confirmation are part of one and the same initiation into the Church. For example, as an adult convert, I was baptized and then confirmed the next minute.
For infants, they are baptized as early as possible to wash away the stain of original sin. Their godparents take their baptismal vows for them, as well as vows to ensure that they receive a solid Catholic education and be presented for confirmation by the bishop later in life. When the child is old enough to make a conscious decision of whether or not to be Catholic, he takes those baptismal vows for himself at his confirmation, and then is sealed with the holy oil. That ceremony is what anoints or ordains a person as part of the universal Church and the "priesthood of all believers".
Sometimes I wonder if it's more a cultural thing than a religious thing. I was visiting a Brasilian friend once and for whatever reason I had asked her if she went to a catholic school growing up in Sao Paulo. She gave me a strange look. Her english wasn't that great and she had to have her boyfriend translate better. She said, " OOOOH, they are ALL catholic schools in Brasil"!
Catholicism has developed a rich culture, but when you get right down to the nitty gritty, a "cultural Catholic" is about as absurd as a "cultural Methodist". As Pope Benedict himself will tell you, the heart of Catholicism is not about symbols or nuns with rulers or confirmation pageantries or building nice churches or even the Latin language. It's about faith in a person: Jesus of Nazareth. Everything else is secondary.
Regarding Brazil, that's certainly not true. Brazil has a public school system, and it has been a secular state since 1891. However, there seems to be a consensus that the private schools (such as Catholic) are better. http://www.fmpsd.ab.ca/schools/df/brazil/meducation.htm | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/21/2008 2:34:56 AM | to speak high of your faith to say how things are done today .
my question is to you have you realy stud y the true history of it all how the roman cathlic church had totured and killed innercent people acused them of such things such of being a wich for starter's or be to whiped or beaten ect to confess there sins such as the spanish Inquisition. established in 1478 .
Or later
During the 16th century a new target was found: Protestants. About 100 were burned as heretics
An index of prohibited books was drawn up that were alleged to contain heresy. In time, converts from Islam, called Moriscos, were also persecuted by the Holy Office. The Spanish Inquisition was an institution at the service of the monarchy, but had to follow procedures set up by the Holy See. Most of the inquisitors had a university education in law. The procedures would start with Edicts of Grace.
The archives of the Inquisition, in comparison to those of other judicial systems of the era, are striking in the completeness of their documentation. The percentage of cases where torture was used, which was as a means of getting confessions, varied. Sentences varied from fines to execution and those condemned had to participate in the ceremony of auto de fe (act of faith). The arrival of the 18th century slowed inquisitorial activity and it was definitively abolished on July 15, 1834. From 1476 to 1834 an estimated 2,000 people were executed.
a little edgacation 101 of your faith .
So the cathlic church has a history im not mocking it but to understands ones faith you have to learn the history behind ones faith .
As later on it was coverd up to protect its name when you had priest molesting children thats where most of the money went for laywers courts ect it was kept under wraps for many years untill it went puplic iam sorry if i may sound rude but thease are the true facts this is what history it self shows if it s not just the cathlics but other religions to .
paul hill a minster of god killed for his believe of faith to protect a unborn child from abortion he killed a doctor for his faith and now he is worshiped as a savior of god see how religion it self can get out of control. and with this i rest my case | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/21/2008 3:08:13 AM | timber worlf asked:
my question is to you have you realy stud y the true history of it all how the roman cathlic church had totured and killed innercent people acused them of such things such of being a wich for starter's or be to whiped or beaten ect to confess there sins such as the spanish Inquisition. established in 1478 .
Have I studied the history?
More than you know. Most people would probably say I'm obsessed with Church history, but I'm obsessed with history in general (it's my college major, after all). I don't know every single piece (it has been demonstrated in other threads that I don't know much Canadian history, for example), but I have probably read more tomes and primary documents of Spanish inquisitorial procedures than anyone would care to know. Thank you.
During the 16th century a new target was found: Protestants. About 100 were burned as heretics
That's quite a conservative estimate, even by my papistical standards. I am sure that more than 100 Protestants were burned or otherwise executed during the Counter-Reformation. Certainly not the romanticized "150 million true Christians" figure that I've seen in some American Protestant textbooks, though. 
Did you know, though, that just as many or more Catholics were executed as heretics in Protestant countries such as England, Scotland, British-ruled Ireland, and various German-speaking principalities? Even though we think of Ireland as a "Catholic country", it endured several centuries of Catholicism being completely illegal on the island.
Elsewhere in the world, literally thousands of Catholics suffered martyrdom under Buddhist Japan after the establishment of the Tokugawa shogunate.
And in the 20th century, over 6,000 Catholic priests were murdered in the Spanish Civil War. Hundreds were murdered in the Cristero War in 1920's Mexico. Untold thousands of Catholic and Orthodox and other Christians died under Stalin in Soviet Russia.
Anyway, my point here is not to have some sort of kill count competition, but just to highlight the fact that people like killing people. Even Buddhists. But it's not because killing people is an intrinsic part of Buddhism, or Catholicism, or Protestantism, or atheism, or any other belief. It's just human nature getting in the way of things.
An index of prohibited books was drawn up that were alleged to contain heresy.
Dude, I've got my own copy of the latest edition of the Index Librorum Prohibitorum in .pdf form on my computer. I'm quite familiar with it.
In time, converts from Islam, called Moriscos, were also persecuted by the Holy Office. The Spanish Inquisition was an institution at the service of the monarchy, but had to follow procedures set up by the Holy See. Most of the inquisitors had a university education in law. The procedures would start with Edicts of Grace.
Not really. From its inception, the Spanish Inquisition was administered independently of the Holy See and the Papacy. King Ferdinand II of Aragon strongarmed Pope Sixtus IV into granting permission for Spain to have a royally-controlled inquisition. Sixtus IV later condemned the Spanish inquisitors but was again forced by military pressure from Ferdinand to let it continue. Specifically, Ferdinand threatened to withdraw his forces from Rome, which would have left it open for the Turks to invade.
The archives of the Inquisition, in comparison to those of other judicial systems of the era, are striking in the completeness of their documentation. The percentage of cases where torture was used, which was as a means of getting confessions, varied. Sentences varied from fines to execution and those condemned had to participate in the ceremony of auto de fe (act of faith). The arrival of the 18th century slowed inquisitorial activity and it was definitively abolished on July 15, 1834. From 1476 to 1834 an estimated 2,000 people were executed.
Not too bad.
It's arguable that more Catholics died under the reign of Queen Elizabeth I alone. Yet she gets glorious movies like "Elizabeth: The Golden Age" made about her life, while the Spanish are always the insane bad guys in every movie. I wonder why that is.
Actually, yes, I know; it's because we live in an English-speaking culture, duh. Reference this article on the Black Legend of Spain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend
a little edgacation 101 of your faith .
Thanks for sharing, timber wolf. However, I can assure you that I'm pretty well-read on the history of the Catholic Church and its history in glorious Spain in particular. Even Spanish Catholicism is not all gloom-and-doom. There are many inspiring stories to tell from there as well.
By the way, I'm educated enough to know that the word is spelled "education".
As later on it was coverd up to protect its name when you had priest molesting children thats where most of the money went for laywers courts ect it was kept under wraps for many years untill it went puplic iam sorry if i may sound rude but thease are the true facts this is what history it self shows if it s not just the cathlics but other religions to .
Not rude by any means. The way I see it, if a particular priest or bishop screws up by screwing kids, he deserves to get a decent amount of mocking.
At the same time, I HATE it when people take a few cases they see on the news and assume "all priests are f-ckin' pedophiles!!". It's a lot like how some people think all Mormons are polygamists. Neither are true, and in fact, 99.9% of Catholic priests are NOT child molesters of any sort. It is a lot easier to find child molesters among public school teachers than among clerics of any religion.
Going back to what you said about "thats where most of the money went for laywers courts ect ", that may be true for dioceses in certain cities like Boston or Portland, but I can tell you that my diocese is doing just fine. We haven't had any child molestation problems here. And so, it's not fair to judge an entire group by the actions of a few. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/21/2008 3:48:20 AM |
By the way, I'm educated enough to know that the word is spelled "education".
timber worlf asked:
Let he who is without spelling related sin cast the first stone! | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/21/2008 7:10:20 AM | clarence clutterbuck
well exscuse me i work a lot of hours and i do study alot so being over tired i think i have the right to to make a mistake dont you think.
in the day of early christains dont you think then they made mistakes to have of them proberly didn't know how to spell or write to well so where there sinner's?
Just a question that's all .
Have a great day | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/21/2008 10:41:34 AM | No criticism or offence meant to you timber wolf. The opposite in fact. My point was more that Jacobus is criticising your spelling of "education" when he previously spelled your name as "worlf". I think we all sin, (meaning to fall short), in the spelling department from time to time. The important thing is that we understand each other.
You also have a good day | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/21/2008 6:29:05 PM | | Of course I make typos and spelling errors as well, as well as even factual mistakes sometimes. However, I'm not so ignorant about my own religion as to not know basic information about the Spanish Inquisition, et al. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/23/2008 8:33:50 PM | basic information about the Spanish Inquisition
It not conciderd basic maybe in collage but it was done through religion no matter how you look at it it dont bring back the people who have died through that time.
even today the vanagen in rome makes up the laws for the church what ever the pope says gos if he says god came to him in a vision than there was no question no its butts nothing.
that is scary to have all that power . | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/23/2008 9:06:36 PM | timber wolf:
even today the vanagen in rome makes up the laws for the church what ever the pope says gos if he says god came to him in a vision than there was no question no its butts nothing.
that is scary to have all that power .
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but that is supremely incorrect from a Catholic perspective. Pope Pius IX once wrote to Bishop Brizen, "If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him."
There seems to be a common perception that the Pope can do whatever he wants, simply because he's the Pope. But that is certainly not the teaching of the Catholic Church. The question of whether "the pope can do anything" has been addressed by many Catholic theologians and popes themselves, and the unanimous conclusion is "no".
As one of my favorite authors, Father Adrian Fortescue said:
"The Pope has no authority from Christ in temporal matters, in
questions of politics.... His authority is ecclesiastical authority; it goes
no further than that of the Church herself. But even in religious matters,
the Pope is bound, very considerably, by the divine constitution of the
Church. There are any number of things that the pope cannot do in religion.
He cannot modify, nor touch in any way, one single point of the revelation
Christ gave to the Church; his business is only to guard this against attack
and false interpretation. We believe that God will guide him that his
decisions of this nature will be nothing more than a defense or unfolding of
what Christ revealed.
"The pope can neither make nor unmake a sacrament; he cannot affect
the essence of any sacrament in any way. He cannot touch the Bible; he can
neither take away a text from the inspired Scriptures nor add one to them.
He has no fresh inspiration nor revelation.
"His business is to believe the revelation of Christ, as all Catholics
believe it, and to defend it against heresy.... The Pope is not, in the
absolute sense, head of the Church; the head of the Church is Jesus Christ
our Lord.... The Pope is the vicar of that head, and therefore visible head
of the Church on earth, having authority delegate from Christ over the Church
on earth only.... If the Pope is a monarch, he is a very constitutional
monarch indeed, bound on all sides by the constitution of the Church, as this
has been given to her by Christ." (The Early Papacy to the Synod of
Chalcedon in 451, pp. 27-28) | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/24/2008 11:01:58 AM | Well all the religions i had study through the years the cathlic is the formost stickest one your not intitled to have any kind of sex befor marrieage or if you have children they have to be babtised as cathlic a cathlic female couldnt get fixed with out a good reason a life and death reason and is prohibited to use condom for safe sex.
Thease are still the laws of your church correct?
who had made thease laws through the years it had to come some where i would think.
And i proberly know what your going to say its from the teachings of god and jesus christ. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:09:13 PM | timber wolf:
Well all the religions i had study through the years the cathlic is the formost stickest one your not intitled to have any kind of sex befor marrieage or if you have children they have to be babtised as cathlic a cathlic female couldnt get fixed with out a good reason a life and death reason and is prohibited to use condom for safe sex.
Thease are still the laws of your church correct?
You're quite correct there. However, our beliefs on sex aren't very different from Orthodox Judaism. Orthodox Jews also prohibit contraception, with a few exceptions, and those who seek to apply one of those exceptions consult a rabbi about it. Traditional-minded Eastern Orthodox Christians also prohibit contraception. And until 1930, all Protestant churches stood against contraception as well.
And certainly, Catholics are by no means the only faith to prohibit extra-marital sex.
who had made thease laws through the years it had to come some where i would think.
And i proberly know what your going to say its from the teachings of god and jesus christ.
And you'd be right there. I'll spare you the chapter-and-verse quotations, though, unless you'd like to see them and ask. However, I can assure you that our beliefs on sex did not come from a vacuum or were arbitrarily imposed from some nameless church hierarch above. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/24/2008 3:26:14 PM | I was indoctrinated as an Anglican but I never truely fell for the stories, in the back of my mind I thought something was funny. I've always been fairly intuitive and I ran experiments, when I was losing my teeth I forgot to tell my parents that I pulled one out and I put it under my pillow but nothing came. When I told my parents they made up a lame excuse that it was the tooth fairy's day off or something. So next time I lost a tooth I didn't tell them, and I put it under my pillow and three days passed, nothing happened so I told my parents I lost it that day and sure enough the next day there was money. Next time I told my parents and that night I stayed up pretending to sleep sure enough the tooth fairy looked a lot like my mom.
When I figured out the tooth fairy wasn't real the other imaginary figures such as Santa, the Easter bunny and God where soon to follow. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:22:24 PM | jhvm
thats what i been saying all along as the teachings of the bible as a kid you realy dont any better here u think its all real just like santa clause when your parents tell ya if you are good santa will come here your all exsited as a kid thinking this guy going to jump down your cimney and put gifts under your tree.
i understand where u are comming from i was told such thing's as a child and i was told to pray befor going to sleep i must of praid for many things nothing ever came true that right there told me that it was make believe nothing but a story nothing elses.
Fantasy is so amazing it tells great many thing's how a man can walk on water or bring fish up from the sea or even come back from the dead when it said that he was rision 500 people witness this now how can 500 people witness some one who was beating to death and staked to a cross and took down and what was it 3 days later he gomes back from the dead i have never seen a love one come back from the dead there is no way it could posibly to have that happend.
But in todays world money is made from this crap statues,pics crosses, u name it even in some places they have tents with a women in a tank full of snakes i seen that down south or even on tv this man preaches and tell them its ok to own a home and have cars ect i was watching one yesterday this preacher on tv said that god would want us to have things like this i said to my self is this guy nuts .
well any how it hard to exsplain to those who have a differnt believe then us because its inplanted in there minds that god exsist and theres no way u could ever convence them differnt.
i had a few in my time ask me if i worship the devil just because iam a athiest just because i believe in facts and truth not in to believeing in something that has never been proven to exsist a all mystical being. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/24/2008 8:33:22 PM | My dear timber wolf:
well any how it hard to exsplain to those who have a differnt believe then us because its inplanted in there minds that god exsist and theres no way u could ever convence them differnt.
Having once been an atheist, I think I can understand where you're coming from. Although my mom is kind of a "fundie" Seventh-day Adventist now, I was not raised in serious religious or theological beliefs as a child.
It's perfectly possible to go from being raised without belief, or even as a rigid atheist, to believing in a God or gods. It happens all the time, and I know quite a few of them. And especially in Communist or former Communist countries such as Russia, China, Cuba and Vietnam, plenty of people are raised atheist as children and become religious believers later in life, sometimes even against the government's prohibitions.
So, I really don't see why religion has to be defined strictly in terms of lifelong indoctrination, when so many people choose to have faith as adults. | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/25/2008 8:43:04 AM | Re Cuba - which is better described as "socialist" than "communist", but that's another thread in another forum - religion is alive and well and tolerated. Children grow up in a variety of religious faiths, and members of those faiths enjoy the same rights and privileges as non-members. Cuba in 2008 isn't the same as Cuba back at the start of the Castro Revolution, and hasn't been so for about 10-15 years.
Back at the beginning of the Castro revolution and the following regime, the official position of the government was Atheist. All religions, but particularly Roman Catholicism (because it was the largest and most powerful religion) were subject to confiscation of property, closure of buildings, and removal of access to media or ownership of printing presses or means of mass communication. Foreign missionaries were banned or harassed and some were summarily arrested for "espionage" (usually meant they were suspected of working for the CIA), and jailed or deported.
In the early nineties the Communist Party lifted its ban on membership for non-atheists and the government's official position was changed to reflect a move to "secular" rather than "atheist" as their official position. Castro even invited the Pope to visit, and agreed to lift some onerous restrictions that the Catholic Church felt impeded its work in Cuba. When the Pope visited (1996/7??), several open-air masses were allowed, government media was made available, the masses were broadcast on Cuban TV, and the government even provided transportation to and from the masses and other rallies and large events. Either at that time or shortly afterwards, Christmas was officially recognised as a holiday. When the Pope called for a prisoner amnesty and asked Castro to free prisoners, he responded by releasing a significant number of prisoners as a gesture to the Pope's request.
Evangelical Christian groups are the fastest growing religious group on the island - though American based Evangelicals are still treated with suspicion. Canadian church groups are treated with a great deal of respect and tolerance, though that may be in response to the kindness and humanitarian aid for which Canadians are so well known in Cuba.
Cuba lists many religious groups as officially recognised (usually = tolerated) -- Baptist, Episcopalian, Anglican, Pentecostal, Adventist, Nazarene, Lutheran, Methodist, Friends,
Havana has it's own Jewish community which has met regularly since before Castro, and (if I recall correctly) has more problems under Batista and the anti-Semitism of the US at the time of Batista. Visiting rabbis are granted visas, and the only prohibition seems to come from the US government.
Santeria, Cuba's oldest religion, a blend of Afro-Cuban beliefs, rituals, and deities, is practiced by between a half and a third of Cuba's population, especially in rural areas. In some areas it has become a blend of the old religion and Catholicism, in others it has become more of an institutional religion, in some areas it has returned to its ancient roots.
Finally, an international committee on religious tolerance based in the US, and often unfavourable to Cuba and Communism in general, in a recent report stated that 2007 was the third year in a row that Cuba had no visible or societal signs of anti-religious sentiment. Canada, the US, and most European nations did. The reader can read into that whatever they want to, but it is a fact that anti-Semitism, for example, is more prevalent and noticeable in nations such as the USA, Canada, France, UK, Germany, Poland, Spain, Albania, and even Holland, than it is in Cuba | |
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/25/2008 4:50:09 PM | Jacobus,
History is a huge field to study, one cannot assume to know history in four years of study. I have known a few philosophers who were young and thought they understood and knew it all, because they could recite different sources and drop a few names along the way. I could keep up with them for hours and not lose ground and they are amazed at my knowledge. The knowledge I have is different, as they can recite, I can them about philosophy because I have lived my philosophy, in most cases, longer than they have lived. I was just like them, when I was their age, full of knowledge, but little understanding of what I was saying. I consider myself an ex-Christian, because I have looked at Christian dome for many aspects.
I have read a lot of your posts and respect your belief system, however; your answers are shallow and lack independent backing. In my studies, at a religious institution, we were exposes to all ideas, all sources. History is written by the winners, it is distorted, and bias, therefore, you need to weight all opinions and come to a wise understanding that nothing is, as it seems. Every historian writes through his/her brain and is bias because of filtering through their own personal belief system. The bible is history and is bias to the Hebrew belief system of which it relies greatly, as well as other influences.
I believe that Jesus was a great man, prophet and came into this world to enlighten us to our potential. I do not believe he was the son of God, because; I believe this was used by the early Christians to give this Jewish sect credence with the Roman Empire, who would not except any Jewish sect for their religion, unless this messiah is present as the son of Jupiter or Zeus. The early Christian saw nothing wrong with this as the end justified the ends, as they incorporated many pagan beliefs into their system in order to win them order, what ever it took to convert the masses.
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| Something I've noticed about ex-Christians
Posted: 4/25/2008 6:12:25 PM | romanticoptimist:
Re Cuba - which is better described as "socialist" than "communist", but that's another thread in another forum - religion is alive and well and tolerated. Children grow up in a variety of religious faiths, and members of those faiths enjoy the same rights and privileges as non-members. Cuba in 2008 isn't the same as Cuba back at the start of the Castro Revolution, and hasn't been so for about 10-15 years.
Yes, I know that religion in Cuba is a lot better than it was previously. However, there are still some restrictions; for example, religious schools are not allowed. http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006a/033106/033106o.php
Nice2phku:
I have read a lot of your posts and respect your belief system, however; your answers are shallow and lack independent backing.
That's fine. I don't expect any of my posts to be especially illuminating. | |
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