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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:18:43 AM | for hamas, same thing. everytime a palestinian political party try to moderate its position, isreal comes up with bulldozers and kidnapping of palestinian political leadership to prevent any progress because again israel wants the whole pie for itself.
Simply not true!
Unless you call sending suicide bombers and Kassam rockets against Israeli civilians a moderate position. All this after the Israeli army pulled out of Gaza and evacuated the jewish settlements. What genocide exactly are the Palestinians facing?
If the Palestinians would have taken half of the money given to them by the european countries and invested it in creating jobs and moving their economy, not only would Israel not interfere but it would support those efforts with donating its own money. But ever since the Palestinian state was established, nothing positive came out of there.
Israelies are tired of fighting the Palestinians and are facing a future clashing point with Israeli arabs. If they would be any sign of movement towards normalization of relations between Israel and the Palestinian state, the Palestinian people stand much to gain.
But their leadership is finding it much easier to continue fighting and blaming Israel for everything rather than becoming a normal state and taking care of the welfare of their own people.
It's too bad for the Palestinian people that their leadership continues to miss key opportunities to reach a settlement with Israel, stop focusing on war and destruction and start focusing on building a prosperous nation that is prowd of its colture and not its martyrs. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:15:24 AM | | Israel may have "pulled out" but they kept up daily shelling, political assasinations and abductions, and tight military control. Hamas has repudiated terrorism, and when was the last time you heard of a suicide bombing by any Palestinian? The trouble is Israel has not repudiated terrorism,and relies upon it to repress Palestine. Have you missed the fact that they are imprisoning the democratically elected leadership of Palestine? They simply label them "terrorist" and think that this justifies anything they do. Now they are in there again demolishing homes and orchards, ruining lives. They have destroyed the only power plant. As for all the money you speak of, Israel controls it and is withholding it illegally. Israel has proven that it wants no compromise because they have continually attacked Gaza since "withdrawal, even when Hamas did absolutely nothing to retaliate for months. The military attack upon the IDF base and abduction of an Israeli soldier shortly followed the brazen massacre of a Palestinian family picnicking on the beach. Their home-made Kassam rockets are little more than a nuisance to a few settlements right over the prison Wall. Israel is occupying Palestinian land and herded the rightful owners into a warsaw ghetto known as Gaza and tiny disconnected enclaves on the W. Bank. They have made no fair offers and in fact have no right to dictate to the rightful owners, who, BTW, are willing to accept a two-state solution. Israel is not willing to accept a two-state solution. They want it all. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:53:16 AM | listened to an interveiw with Elias Bejjani last night. he happens to be the chairman of the Lebanese/Canadian coordinating council, an umbrella group representing several Leb/Can. groups. without going into great detail, his statements place the blame for the current crises squarely on the shoulders of hezbollah. to say that hezbollah is not a terrorist organization is laughable. provocation of israel was of course going to garner a response. he states that hezbollah is no more than a proxy organization furthering the policies of syria and iran, that they have become a state within a state. thier goals are to control lebanon and to use it as a staging area to continue the attempts to eradicate israel. after syria was forced to withdraw their military from lebanon they simply replaced it with hezbollah, providing financial and military aid to said organization.
now then, i will await the predictable responses. Mr. Bejjani is a nut, he doesn't represent lebanese, etc, etc. I however am more likely to have my opinions formed by statements by someone such as this than the vitrolic rantings of pseudo-intellection coffe house denizens such as those who seem to populate this thread. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 8:19:38 AM | HEZBOLLA and NAZI`S...sounds interesting....
http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=3950e302-29ea-44f6-b9e5-e69929b29f9d&k=69962
Tory stance riles Muslims
Hezbollah finds support in Calgary
Kelly Cryderman, Calgary Herald
Published: Thursday, August 24, 2006
Five times daily, devout Muslims gather for prayer at the Calgary Islamic Centre in the city's west, nestled between Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Calgary Southwest riding and his family home in Tuscany.
While the mosque may be in the heartland of Canada's Conservative party, you might as well be in another world if you bring up the PM's staunch opposition to the Lebanese terrorist group Hezbollah.
"Hezbollah isn't the one that engaged Israel. Israel is the one that engaged Hezbollah," said Mohammed Amin, attending midday prayer Wednesday. "I have a lot of respect for Hezbollah."
"(Hezbollah) didn't come to my mind much before, now they do," said Mount Royal College biological sciences student Shakir Hamadiya, also at prayers.
"Now that they actually defended Lebanon, I like them more, for sure."
The government of Canada classifies Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, with Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day arguing that Hezbollah is intent on carrying out a plan of genocide.
Canada, along with other G-8 countries, has called for the group to disarm and disavow its intent to destroy Israel.
But many Muslims are aghast at Calgary Southeast MP Jason Kenney's contention this week -- and Harper's agreement -- that there are key similarities between Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Nazi Germans who killed millions of Jews during the Second World War.
Canadian Muslims and their leaders contend the Harper government is wrong to make the comparison. Some say their respect for Hezbollah has shot up during the summer, as the group waged war against Israel.
In Calgary, as in other Canadian cities, the Hezbollah flag was seen at the rallies that voiced opposition to the heavy Lebanese casualties in the conflict.
Imam Alaa Elsayed, a spokesman for the Muslim Council of Calgary, said there was little support for Hezbollah before this summer's fighting.
"Now, they've got so much legitimacy from the war and there is so much support for Hezbollah right now, whether we like it or not," he said. "They see them as freedom fighters now."
Djillali Bouksara, another prayer-goer at the Calgary Islamic Centre, defended Hezbollah, saying "they are fighting for their country." A Sunni Muslim, Bouksara said it doesn't matter to him that Hezbollah is a Shiite-based group.
"For me, they are Muslim. I don't see Shi'a or Sunni, whatever."
In Ottawa, Kenney held a news conference this week to criticize a Liberal MP for suggesting that Canada should negotiate with Hezbollah. Kenney said just as the world was wrong to negotiate with the Nazi party decades ago, it would be wrong to negotiate with Hezbollah.
The prime minister agreed, in part, saying: "as near as I can tell, both Hezbollah and the Nazi party stand for the elimination of the Jewish nation. So I think that's pretty fundamental and, in that sense, I don't think it's unfair."
Michael Mostyn, director of government relations for the Jewish advocacy organization B'nai Brith Canada, said the Canadian government has taken a principled stand on Hezbollah, and widespread condemnation of the group is much deserved -- no matter what some Canadians may think. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 8:40:13 AM | http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=ccb585a9-12d7-4937-8546-0b68a1b7b5fc&k=39233
Alaa Shahine, Reuters
Published: Thursday, August 24, 2006
Article tools
BEIRUT - The Lebanese government undertook on Thursday to stop smuggling across Lebanon's border with Syria, playing down a controversy between Syria and Israel over whether U.N. forces should deploy there to stop arms shipments.
Syria threatened on Wednesday to close the border if the United Nations deploys troops there as part of its mission to enforce a truce between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas.
Israel says it will not lift a sea and air blockade of Lebanon unless a reinforced U.N. peacekeeping force helps the Lebanese army control the border so that no new weapons reach Hizbollah in the south.
The dispute has the Lebanese government caught in the middle. Its priority is to reopen the country to the world but it has limited influence over either Syria and Israel.
Culture Minister Tareq Mitri, who led the Lebanese delegation in truce talks at the United Nations this month, said: "The Lebanese government is working hard to secure the border and lift the (Israeli) blockade."
"The Lebanese stance is clear. The sovereignty of any state includes securing its border crossings, preventing any smuggling attempts, and this is what the Lebanese state is planning to do," he told Voice of Lebanon radio.
"The rest of this issue falls into the category of ... provoking emotions and fears," he added.
The truce came into effect on August 14, ending a 34-day war between by Israel and Hizbollah. More than 1,100 people, mostly civilians, were killed in Lebanon and 157 in Israel.
But the ceasefire is fragile and eyewitnesses said that Israeli warplanes flew the Bekaa valley in eastern Lebanon on Thursday morning -- an act Lebanon considers a truce violation.
A squad of Israeli troops returned to the Lebanese border village of Houla on Thursday morning, security sources said. Israeli forces had withdrawn from Houla after the truce came into effect.
A Lebanese government official who asked not to be named told Reuters that Lebanon had asked the United Nations for technical help to monitor the border crossings but not to deploy any of the U.N. troops along the border with Syria.
Asked if the government would ask for U.N. forces right on the border, he said: "The decision is up to the cabinet and it has not taken it yet. It depends on the situation."
A spokesman for the existing U.N. force in south Lebanon, UNIFIL, said he was not aware of a Lebanese request but it could have gone through another channel, such as New York.
The Lebanese army has started to deploy along parts of the Syrian border but the United Nations is finding it hard to muster more troop contingents to strengthen UNIFIL.
Belgian Foreign Minister Karel De Gucht visited Beirut on Thursday and promised to take part in the force.
"He informed me that Belgium will contribute to the UNIFIL force in the south, but the numbers and the mechanism depend on the (European Union) meeting in Brussels tomorrow," Lebanese Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh told reporters. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 8:52:40 AM | To say that the IDF is not a terrorist organization is laughable. Israel is a state occupying a state, and is an apartheid state at that. Apartheid occupying powers are not a legitimate state. Furthermore, they are a proxy state of the US government, furthering US corporate interests in the region. Hezbollah did not target any civilians until Israel began to attack Lebanese civilians, whom Hezbollah has sworn to protect.
Although the civilian casualties and damage in Israel were miniscule compared to the rabid destruction deliberately carried out by the terrorist IDF, nobody is excusing hezbollah for their indiscriminate rocket attacks. But Amnesty International, the UN, Human Rights Watch, and Israeli human rights NGO's all condemn the vicious and deliberate targeting of Lebanese civilians. Amnesty International says that those who directed these attacks should be tried for war crimes. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 8:58:50 AM | It is interesting to see that Israel with all its guided missiles and new technology killed more civilians than Hezbollah and lost soldiers as well.
The Israeli army lost 116 soldiers. Forty-three civilians were also killed by more than 4,000 Hezbollah rocket attacks.
About 1,200 Lebanese were killed in the conflict, mostly civilians in Israel's vast bombardment of the county and land invasion in the south.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5282548.stm | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 10:44:21 AM | if you intentionally hide military assets behind and amongst civilians, and do so as part of your strategy, you are going to have civilian deaths. didn't hear too much about israeli launch sites or gun tubes placed in market places, schools etc. by the way, artillery is neither gps or laser guided and not all of the IDF's missle a***nal is precision guided. there ARE questions about israel and their targeting. there are no such questions as pertains to hezbollah.
if you as a civilian are warned before hand,that your neighborhood is a targeted area of operations and resolve to stay, you do so at your own risk. this does in no way lessen the tragedy of innocent deaths. but who bears the guilt, the shooter or the targets deliberatly placed in order to garner reactions such as these.
to me it comes down to a simple question - Does Israel have the right to exist as a nation. if so, deliberate provocation is going to result in reaction. most of what people called occupied areas were seized during war. that is nothing new, been done for millenium. in fact the state of israel has returned much of what they obtained after they were attacked. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 1:24:07 PM | I am really getting tired of repeating myself, but ALL guerilla resistances from the Jewish Zealots against Rome to the anti-Nazi partisans to Hezbollah move and mingle with the population...because they are their people and families. This is a red herring. One could make the same charge about the settlements. After all, most kibbutzes are heavily armed militias and most settlers keep an a***nal of weapons. Israeli reservists are throughly mingled with the population for the same reason the Lebanese resistance is....those are their homes and families.
Israeli shelling was not blind lobbing of shells. They had constant aerial surveillance, manned and drones, to direct their fire. Children were coming and going from the demolished building in Qana day and night, and could hear the drones overhead. The IDF knew they were there and attacked them. Simple as that. War criminals. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 1:28:15 PM | Amnesty International Accuses Israel of Committing War Crimes in Lebanon
Thursday, August 24th, 2006
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/24/1425205
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes for deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure in Lebanon. In a report released yesterday, the human rights group criticized Israel for destroying homes, bridges, roads, water treatment plants and fuel tanks. The report said such attacks were an "integral part" of Israel’s strategy in the war.
The group is calling for a United Nations investigation into whether Israel and Hezbollah broke humanitarian law.
The report is based on research from Amnesty missions in Lebanon and Israel, including interviews with victims, UN officials, Israeli military officers and members of the Lebanese government.
In a few minutes we are going to get a response on the report from Israel’s deputy ambassador to the UN, Daniel Carmon, but first we take a closer look at the report’s findings with Marty Rosenbluth. He is a specialist for Israel, the Occupied Territories and the Palestinian Authority for Amnesty International-USA. He was on one of the research missions for the group that helped compile this report.
Marty Rosenbluth, specialist for Israel, the Occupied Territories, and the Palestinian Authority for Amnesty International-USA.
Related Links:
Amnesty International report "Lebanon: Destruction of civilian infrastructure"
Satellite images showing the destruction in Lebanon
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AMY GOODMAN: Our guest in studio in Washington, D.C. is Marty Rosenbluth. He's with Amnesty International, a specialist for Israel, Occupied Territories and the Palestinian Authority with Amnesty International-USA, one of the research missions for the group that helped compile this report. He joins us in studio. Welcome to Democracy Now!
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Thank you for having me.
AMY GOODMAN: It's good to have you joining us in the Reuters studio. Can you talk about your major findings in this report?
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Well, sure. What the report shows is that the Israeli claims that the damage to the civilian infrastructure was purely collateral damage just really doesn't match the facts. And you really only have to look at the statements by Israeli government officials. I mean, Dan Halutz, who’s the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, said at the very beginning of the war that the purpose of the air strikes was to send a message to the Lebanese government that if they didn't rein in Hezbollah, that the Lebanese population would pay a heavy price. I mean, that's prima fascia evidence that the strikes were designed as collective punishment. But also just the sheer level of the destruction, the destruction of the electrical infrastructure, the water infrastructure, the roads, the bridges, houses, businesses, etc., just doesn't match the Israeli claims that this was either collateral damage or due to the fact that Hezbollah was shielding amongst the civilian population.
JUAN GONZALEZ: And what are, in terms of established rules of war or international law, the main guiding points in terms of when civilian areas can be attacked in time of war?
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Well, the most important principle of the laws of war is what is called the principle of distinction. I mean, this was passed a long time ago into what's called customary international law, which means it's binding on all parties, whether they be, quote/unquote, “non-state actors” like Hezbollah or the Israeli military. So the Israeli claim that since these have a military potential or contribute in some way to the military effort makes them a legitimate military targets is just not how international humanitarian law works.
JUAN GONZALEZ: When you say the principle of distinction -- for example, in your report you mentioned the many roads that were destroyed by Israel. Israel was claiming that these roads could potentially be used for military transport. But you raise the issue that while that may be true, they were principally used by civilians and that that should have been the overriding factor?
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Correct. And that's really what the principle of distinction means: you have to distinguish between whether it's primarily a military purpose or primarily a civilian purpose to balance essentially what the military advantage is versus the effect on the civilian population. So when we met with senior IDF officials in Israel, they said, “Well, the electrical infrastructure is a military target, because Hezbollah needs electricity.” Well, of course Hezbollah needs electricity, but so do hospitals, so do civilians for refrigeration, so does the water infrastructure. The electrical pumps rely on electricity for water. So if you knock out the electricity infrastructure, you also knock out the water, which creates a major health hazard. So, simply claiming that there's some military potential or it contributes in some way to Hezbollah's military purposes doesn't mean that it can be targeted as a military target. That's a clear violation of the laws of war.
AMY GOODMAN: Marty Rosenbluth, can you outline the level of destruction?
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: It's still very difficult. I mean, just now, the full extent of the destruction has really begun to be estimated, but there's still, for all practical purposes, from our documentation, no electricity in the south, which, again, affects the water. Hundreds, if not thousands, of houses have been destroyed, businesses, roads, etc., etc. We now have another mission, which just got on the ground there on Sunday, to try to assess what the full extent of the damage is. And we'll also be sending another mission into northern Israel to assess the damage there. I was on the ground for a week in northern Israel looking at the effect of the war on civilians in northern Israel. And it's also clear that there was very clear violations of the laws of war on the part of Hezbollah, by targeting Israeli civilians.
AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Marty Rosenbluth, specialist for Israel, the Occupied Territories, and the Palestinian Authority for Amnesty International-USA. Now, your report, Marty, includes a number of statements from Israeli military officials indicating the destruction of the civilian infrastructure was indeed a goal of Israel's military campaign, designed to press the Lebanese government and the people of Lebanon to turn against Hezbollah.
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Yeah, correct. And again, we take them at their word. I mean, when the chief of staff of the IDF says that the purpose of the air strikes is so that the Lebanese government will realize that they don't rein in Hezbollah, that Lebanon will pay a heavy price, that's a very clear statement of policy. When they say that unless the Lebanese government reins in Hezbollah, that they're going to destroy the electrical infrastructure, that's a very clear statement of policy.
So the Israeli government is doing essentially, is what they're saying. If you read their documents, they say, well, it isn't a question of the individual objective, but the overall strategic advantage. It's a very, very broad interpretation of what's called, quote/unquote, “dual use,” where if something has a military purpose and a civilian purpose, it can be targeted. And we and the entire human rights community, as well as the majority of the international community, would have a much more restrictive approach, which would require them to balance each attack, each target, based on whether or not it's a military target or a civilian target.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Your report also raises questions about the attacks on the communications and media infrastructure of the country. You note that not only did the Israelis target the Hezbollah television station, but they also bombed the transmitters of the Lebanese Public Broadcasting Corporation and other commercial broadcasters that had nothing to do with the conflict. Could you talk about that?
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Well, sure. And even with the targeting of the Hezbollah TV station, Al Manar, when we were in the meeting with senior Israeli defense officials in Israel, you know, what they said was, well, you know, not only are they broadcasting propaganda, but they're broadcasting instructions to the troops. And we asked for documentation. We said, “Can you give us transcripts? Can you give us audio tape? Can you give us videotape of Al Manar being used to actually broadcast instructions to Hezbollah fighters?” And they backed down on that.
And again, it's totally indiscriminate. I mean, they targeted basically the entire communications infrastructure. And again, I’m sure their claim would be, well, this has military potential, but it also has civilian use and affects civilians disproportionately to the military advantage from Hezbollah.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about hospitals and supermarkets?
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Well, the supermarkets was actually pretty surprising to us, pretty alarming, in terms of what our mission on the ground found, is that from talking to civilians, from interviewing eyewitnesses, very often the supermarkets were the first thing that were targeted. And they were targeted in a way that the trajectory was very high, so the contents of the supermarket was destroyed. It opens up the question whether that was targeted to force the civilian population to evacuate, to force the civilian population to flee. In addition to that, we documented I think three separate cases where hospitals were targeted. And targeting hospitals is absolutely prohibited under international humanitarian law, unless it can be proven that they were being used essentially as a cover for military operations.
JUAN GONZALEZ: And when you say “targeted,” are you saying that they were deliberately hit or inadvertently hit, or did you question the Israelis about whether they actually intended to hit these hospitals?
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Well, we didn't on the hospitals, per se, because when we were meeting with the Israeli officials in Israel, we didn't have that documentation. But the Israelis were pretty clear. The Israelis were basically claiming that they chose their targets very carefully, that they chose their targets very deliberately, and each and every target was vetted by a command chain, including an international humanitarian law trained expert. So that sets a very high bar.
And, in fact, the conclusion to our report and what we're asking for is an international investigation with experts that have the mandate and the training and the support and the financial resources and the cooperation of the parties to conduct the investigation properly. And I would think that both the Israeli government and our own government would have an interest in wanting a proper investigation. I mean, if Israel can show, if Israel can demonstrate, that these were in fact legitimate military targets, that should come out in a proper investigation. Our documentation and the documentation of other human rights organizations says that a lot of the targets were hit were not military targets. But if the Israelis can prove that they were through a proper investigation, that's what the investigation will show. And the same goes for Hezbollah.
AMY GOODMAN: Marty Rosenbluth, your report, Amnesty International's report on “Israel/Lebanon: Deliberate Destruction or ‘Collateral Damage’? Israeli Attacks on Civilian Infrastructure,” says that people guilty of war crimes should be held responsible anywhere in the world. What does that mean if you find Israeli officials responsible? For example, those that travel to this country.
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Well, and it's not just the Israeli officials. I mean, let's be clear that this is just the first of a series of reports that are going to come out. I mean, as I was saying, I was part of the mission that went into northern Israel. We would also hold Hezbollah officials accountable. But, I mean, this is the challenge of international humanitarian law, is how is it enforced? How do you hold people accountable?
But, yes, I mean, if Israeli officials who are responsible for war crimes are in the United States or are in Europe, they can be arrested and held accountable. Look what happened with Pinochet, for example. This is more and more a tool that's being used to try to enforce international humanitarian law, by holding those individuals who are responsible accountable for those offenses. And that would go both for Hezbollah and for Israeli officials.
AMY GOODMAN: And Israel's charge that Hezbollah used people as human shields, that they embedded themselves in the civilian population so that everyone was a target?
MARTY ROSENBLUTH: Well, if it were true -- and again, we're still working on documenting that. And I’m not saying it didn't happen. Let's be really clear on that. We're still trying to investigate the extent to which Hezbollah did use civilians as human shields. And if this was true, it would, in fact, be a war crime. But that does not remove from Israel the responsibility to protect civilians. It can't be used as a blanket excuse. So if Israel says, well, there was one Hezbollah fighter in a building, that does not give them the right to level the entire neighborhood to try to target that one fighter. Again, the principle of proportionality, where you have to balance the military objective against the effect on civilians, comes into play. So, I mean, the Israelis essentially have used the argument that Hezbollah is shielding amongst a civilian population to -- in the south, to level entire villages, you know, destroying about 80%, in some cases, of the houses in the village. That's not a legitimate interpretation of the laws of war.
AMY GOODMAN: Marty Rosenbluth, I want to thank you for being with us, of Amnesty International-USA, specialist for Israel, the Occupied Territories and the Palestinian Authority. Thanks for joining us.
www.democracynow.org | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 3:48:52 PM |
but who bears the guilt, the shooter or the targets deliberatly placed in order to garner reactions such as these.
of course the lebanese civilians are responsible for their death. they were warned to leave and they did not. my interpretation is that they wanted to commit a collective suicide and we are not going to blame the israeli army. israel only wanted to bomb empty buildings and did not start bombing until all the civilians had left. few were killed because they did not leave and consequently they are responsible for their death. if they had just listen to the israeli army, you know that army with a hitlerian heart, they would still be living today.
to me it comes down to a simple question - Does Israel have the right to exist as a nation.
in fact, for the last 50 years, the question is really: do the palestinians have a right to a state of their own on part of a land that they used to own fully
all the propaganda is not going to change anything to the real issue. Israel has existed since 1948. palestine has yet to exist as an official country and state and a full member of the UN.
so the fight for a palestinian state will continue and the hitlerian state of israel will not be able to stop it or have peace until it accepts the existence of a fully independent palestinian state.
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 5:16:21 PM | | I find it very interesting that hezbollah is to most of the world not a terrorist organization and yet they want for people to simply turn a blind eye to the brutal malicious things that have have done in the past for their holy war. They even turn their religion into something ugly. Granted I am not a religeous person but I think that they use the more violent reteric in their quran to justify their "cause". I think that hezbollah wouldn't know how to lead a civil life after so many being fed the line that its ok to kill and to take on the non-believers with all that they've got and its ok to kill an infidel because they do not believe what you do and you're killing them is the right way. I think that they use it as an excuse to attack israel and then get angry at them for defending themselves because people in lebanon are dying. Well people in israel are dying and have died aswell and its so maddening that its alright for that to happen in alot of peoples eyes. I just wish they would crack an eye and see that death on either end has happened and its not the fault of civilians on either side of the mess. If hezbollah is going to go hard core politics and gaining favor that way then I pity the people of lebanon because if they gain more and more power that way how long will it be before they get exactly what they want-Total control over the lebanese people and join further with iran and iraq and do their burning desire and try to take out israel. The loss of life would be staggaring for all nations involved. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 6:16:42 PM | I just wish they would crack an eye and see that death on either end has happened and its not the fault of civilians on either side of the mess.
This is precisely the point we're trying to get you and others to understand.
Any other frame of reference is a false dichotomy. Many here "get" this, for others it isn't even on the radar, and the cause of this is simple blind ignorant bigotry.
Again:
Israel has the right to exist.
Palestine has the right to exist.
Lebanon has the right to exist.
One of the three is killing a lot more civilians than the others, one of the three has tacit approval from the west to commit atrocities (IN OUR NAME), and to do so uncontested. There is a very elaborate PR/Propaganda machine in place to mislead, obfuscate, and outright lie to get you to view this as a:
Reality.
When in fact, by any definition based in reason, logic and critical thinking it is a:
False dichotomy.
Almost every argument made from the destroy "them" camp, comes from the same sources, media co-opted by organizations run and staffed by ex-military, ex-diplomatic, ex-Mossad, Israeli nationals operating in the west as "non-profit" organizations.
Some people won't admit to being led by the nose, this is understandable, but to consistantly repeat the same de-bunked propaganda and rhetoric is really convincing nobody, except those to whom blind ignorant bigotry is a comfort zone. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 6:52:26 PM | ... and the hitlerian state of israel will not be able to stop it or have peace until it accepts the existence of a fully independent palestinian state. Or until they have successfully annihilated the Palestinians ... and at this point I'm not so convinced that this has anything to do with Israel itself ... more to do with the ambitions of the current administration in the USA. After all it was our "cowboy" in the White House that publically stated they purposely did not call for a ceasefire earlier so as to give Israel a little more time.
I find it very interesting that hezbollah is to most of the world not a terrorist organization and yet they want for people to simply turn a blind eye to the brutal malicious things that have have done in the past for their holy war. I find it very interesting that the world is turning a blind eye to the brutal malicious things the Israeli's have been doing ... at the encouragement of the White House.
The hardcore Zionists that are now in control in Israel have stated that those who do not believe as they do are considered as "animals" ... basic low lifes. This is nothing new ... I've been aware of this since doing an in-depth study in high school on the religions of the world. And what is even more interesting is that "Chrisitians" just happen to be included in that.
Therefore it puzzles me that all these so-called "Christians" are so "pro-Israel". They don't realize that as far as the Jews are concerened ... this so-called "promise land" does not include space for anyone who does not follow the Jewish faith. Someone is playing a very bad trick on them if they are telling them otherwise.
I thought about what could be behind all that and have come to the conclusion that they are simply blindly following their messianic leader (GWB).
Another thing I get pretty sick of reading are these constant insinuations that all Muslims want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth ... or that all Muslims practice Jihad as a means of ridding the world of "infidels". Just as the various other major religions of the world have their extremists ... of course so does the Muslim religion.
I personally know Jewish people who want nothing to do with the "hardcore Zionists" or their actions against the Palestinians ... they abhor what is going on and find it loathesome. But I also personally know Jewish people who see anyone who doesn't believe as they do as the scum of the earth.
I personally know and worked with ... and took care of Muslims who scoff at the thought of Jihad in any way other than involving both an inward struggle (directed against evil in oneself) and an outward one (against injustice in society or the world generally). I do not personally know any Muslim who believes in killing off anyone who doesn't believe as they do.
I personally know Christians who are loving and caring and giving, and I personally know self-proclaimed Christians who lend true meaning to the word "hypocrite".
Why can't people learn to differentiate ... stop generalizing? NOT ALL MUSLIMS WANT TO WIPE OUT ISRAEL and NOT ALL JEWS CONSIDER "NON-BELIEVERS" THE SCUM OF THE EARTH.
It just happens to be the people in control that we need to be concerned about ... the people pulling the strings and pushing the buttons. This has to be evident to many or there would not be soldiers of the IDF (in all ranks including general) refusing to participate any longer in the killings. This has to be evident to many or there would not be such an uprising in the US right now over it's backing of Israel ... the out-of-control "cowboy" in the White House.
I just wish they would crack an eye and see that death on either end has happened and its not the fault of civilians on either side of the mess. "cleopatracutie" has stated it very wisely here.  VERY WELL PUT!!!
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:02:51 PM |
Therefore it puzzles me that all these so-called "Christians" are so "pro-Israel". They don't realize that as far as the Jews are concerened ... this so-called "promise land" does not include space for anyone who does not follow the Jewish faith. Someone is playing a very bad trick on them if they are telling them otherwise.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts4889916.aspx
Add to this the corporate lobby with hundreds of billions at stake, and of course the well placed and ubiquitous extreme-right Zionist PR machine, .....this bunch is an exponentially greater threat to the planet than a few thousand Lebanese militia. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:15:34 PM | I've never seen anywhere that the Jews are exclusionary to non-Jews regarding citizenship in Israel...I know for a fact that their religion is not exclusionary although they are most certainly not a proletyzing faith - unlike the uneasy bedfellows of the far right Zionists, the right wing Christians, who until they adopted the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend stance, referred to the Jews as being (Southern Baptist Council used the exact wording) in spiritual darkness...along with the Hindus, Buddhists and everyone else...including the Catholics.
Certainly we should be specific here. There is a tendency that is all too common to lump all Jews together as a monolithic entity because it is handy... but I have not heard any plans from even the most Orthodox of Jews to exclude non-Jews from dwelling within the borders of Israel. Certainly this would be at odds with their own Scripture and teachings. I don't recall personally reading that Israel is for the Jew and only the Jew...
And even if it did, and someone, somewhere held that position, to assume that the entire religion/culture/nation did would certainly be an error. The last time I checked, you didn't have to espouse Judaism to be a citizen of the state of Israel.
Excuse my offtopic intrusion...I agree with the premise that Hezbollah is not anywhere near the threat that the military-industrial complex behind this is. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:26:55 PM | Thanks cotter. I know alot of people do not see hezbollah the way that I do and I do see them no differently from the taliban-hamas and other smaller terror guided groups. They all have similar (when it comes to warring and terrorism) doctrine and all of the good things that they do come at a price at some time or another. All the stuff I see on the news and read on the net makes my blood boil sometimes because in the media especially people make it out to be ALL israels fault and like the dead on israels side do not matter the way that the lebanese dead do. They have loved ones and are mothers fathers sons and daughters and were every bit as innocent as the lebanese dead and the media makes it out like its so much more meaningful to make a bigger deal about the lebanese peoples suffering. I think that they need to pay equal attention to the suffering of both nations innocents and deceased. Put aside who I think started it (and still don't think they're right) and look at both sides its horrific and inhumaine that wars like the one between israel and lebanon even have a need to exsist.
If you've ever seen (i know this is from left-feild lol) gone with the wind? Ashley had it so right when he said: Look at all of the wars that have happened in the world, when those wars were over no one really knew what they were about. I think it has some truth. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:40:36 PM | Certainly we should be specific here. There is a tendency that is all too common to lump all Jews together as a monolithic entity because it is handy... but I have not heard any plans from even the most Orthodox of Jews to exclude non-Jews from dwelling within the borders of Israel. Certainly this would be at odds with their own Scripture and teachings. I don't recall personally reading that Israel is for the Jew and only the Jew..
I do not consider this whole right-wing Zionist issue to be an ideal supported by all Jews, far from it.
But, as far as the RW Zionist agenda, re: racism? .....
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150422006?open&of=ENG-2MD
http://www.btselem.org/english/special/20060514_HCJ_Approves_Racism_Law.asp
Where there's smoke?
I agree with the premise that Hezbollah is not anywhere near the threat that the military-industrial complex behind this is.
This bunch is playing both sides to it's advantage, the one thing that is a sure result of Lebanon War II, and that's more revenue in the coffers of the military industrial complex, ....not just the US one either.
Sure, it's probably the easiest avenue just to wipe Hezbollah off the face of the earth. But, if history is to teach us anything, ...this creates more problems than it solves.
The status quo has served only to INCREASE instability of the region, add up the "no" responses to resolving 242, add up the vetos to any objections to Israeli atrocities (that's a LOT of 100+ to 1 tallies), observe that each and every attempt by the Arabs in the region to offer solutions which have as their resolution, peace with a recognized state of Israel, ....add it all up.
Follow the money.
What did the war with Lebanon yield?
A solution?
Or, the hint of an "Ultimate" one.
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:44:01 PM |
I find it very interesting that hezbollah is to most of the world not a terrorist organization and yet they want for people to simply turn a blind eye to the brutal malicious things that have have done in the past for their holy war. They even turn their religion into something ugly. Granted I am not a religeous person but I think that they use the more violent reteric in their quran to justify their "cause". I think that hezbollah wouldn't know how to lead a civil life after so many being fed the line that its ok to kill and to take on the non-believers with all that they've got and its ok to kill an infidel because they do not believe what you do and you're killing them is the right way. I think that they use it as an excuse to attack israel and then get angry at them for defending themselves because people in lebanon are dying. Well people in israel are dying and have died aswell and its so maddening that its alright for that to happen in alot of peoples eyes. I just wish they would crack an eye and see that death on either end has happened and its not the fault of civilians on either side of the mess. If hezbollah is going to go hard core politics and gaining favor that way then I pity the people of lebanon because if they gain more and more power that way how long will it be before they get exactly what they want-Total control over the lebanese people and join further with iran and iraq and do their burning desire and try to take out israel. The loss of life would be staggaring for all nations involved.
This post reveals a world of ignorance about Hezbollah and its place in South Lebanon. The Hezbollah are residents of S. Lebanon, not foreigners. They are the armed Resistance Fighters inspired by the first Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon that lasted until 2000. Their attack upon Israeli soldiers and subsequent abduction was on Lebanese soil and for a prisoner exchange. Israel holds Lebanese prisoners ever since their aggression against Lebanon. Hezbollah has never carried out terrorist raids into the occupied territories, not counting their rocket retaliation to Israeli terrorism.
Hezbollah fighters return to civil life immediately, helping in the rebuilding of a devastated land, because it is their land and their homes and their families that have been attacked. The total control you refer to is what Israel has exercised over the imprisoned palestinian people, who live in the equivalent of the WWII Warsaw Ghetto of living death. About 10,000 Palestinians are trapped in the deeper hell of Israeli prisons.
The foiled second invasion of Lebanon was a plan of the Bush WH and the murderous Olmert regime to accomplish the same thing with Lebanon as Bush did in Iraq: destruction of another Arab country in order to keep the ME in chaos and oil prices high. | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/25/2006 5:59:58 AM | To say that the IDF is not a terrorist organization is laughable. Israel is a state occupying a state, and is an apartheid state at that. Apartheid occupying powers are not a legitimate state. Furthermore, they are a proxy state of the US government, furthering US corporate interests in the region.
Your statement is so far out that it does not deserve a reply.
If you ask any Israeli Arab or Palestinian where would they rather live in Israel under Jewish rule or in the Palestinian state, the answer is unanimous, In Israel!
And the reasons are social and economic, The Palestinian authority is ruled by a corrupt government who keeps their people in poverty on purpose while they live in posh homes and a comfortable lifestyle. What ever happened to the Billions of Dollars Arafat stashed away? Is any of that money ever going to find it's way to the Palestinian people? Oh, sorry that is also Israel's fault, everything else is! | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/25/2006 6:09:10 AM | The foiled second invasion of Lebanon was a plan of the Bush WH and the murderous Olmert regime to accomplish the same thing with Lebanon as Bush did in Iraq: destruction of another Arab country in order to keep the ME in chaos and oil prices high.
Wow, where do you get your enlightened theories from? | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/25/2006 4:17:57 PM |
If you ask any Israeli Arab or Palestinian where would they rather live in Israel under Jewish rule or in the Palestinian state, the answer is unanimous, In Israel!
And the reasons are social and economic, The Palestinian authority is ruled by a corrupt government who keeps their people in poverty on purpose while they live in posh homes and a comfortable lifestyle. What ever happened to the Billions of Dollars Arafat stashed away? Is any of that money ever going to find it's way to the Palestinian people? Oh, sorry that is also Israel's fault[/], everything else is!
how true. if you asked the vietnames where they wanted to live, they would have said the us of course. I wonder why. could it be because all the barbaric destruction of vietnam by the us? napalm, agent orange, defoliants............bombs, more bombs...the most bombed country of all time.
what difference between then and now, between what the us did to vietnam and what the hitlerian state of israel did to the palestinians in gaza and the west bank.
the palestinian authority may be corrupt but it's made of palestinians. it's not an occupying power. it has never bulldozed a palestinian house and it never will. | |
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