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| Israel breaks truce...nobody objects
Posted: 8/19/2006 10:18:46 AM | response to msg 212. can you honestly say that no arab/muslim leader has ever called for the extermination of the jewish state, zionist or not. has not either side broken peace accords. there is no trust, how can two combatants, bloodied and scarred by past acts ever negotiate in good faith. i don't have that answer.
as for the US being the root cause, what of acts of violence perpertrated againist western societies other than american. talk to the dutch, see what the netherlands are going thru right now.
msg 214. i concur, when did war become civilized. western societies are so concerned about image that the ability to wage war is compromised. yes, in a perfect utopian society war is never needed as a final solution to failed diplomacy, but we don't live in said utopia. if previous generations were as concerned about image as we are today, all of europe would sit firmly planted beneath the heel of a jackboot, there would be no south korea, etc.
couple of unfortunate quotes "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war."
' peace thru superiour firepower"
note- i don't know if the quote is 100% accurate but you all get the point and i fervently wish it was not so. | |
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| Israel breaks truce...nobody objects
Posted: 8/19/2006 10:32:01 AM |
response to msg 212. can you honestly say that no arab/muslim leader has ever called for the extermination of the jewish state, zionist or not. has not either side broken peace accords. there is no trust, how can two combatants, bloodied and scarred by past acts ever negotiate in good faith. i don't have that answer.
You were talking about this thread and posters. Are there posters calling for open warfare against Hezbollah? Are there posters calling for open warfare against Israel? Personally, I haven't seen any posts, in all these threads, calling for open warfare against Israel. So, which posters have more of an extreme bias?
as for the US being the root cause, what of acts of violence perpertrated againist western societies other than american. talk to the dutch, see what the netherlands are going thru right now.
Well, when racism has risen to high levels, so that it actually becomes part of political platforms, you know you're going to have troubles.
Peace  | |
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arri
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Joined: 10/5/2005
Msg: 203 | |
| Israel breaks truce...nobody objects
Posted: 8/19/2006 10:36:46 AM | can you honestly say that no arab/muslim leader has ever called for the extermination of the jewish state, zionist or not.
Sadat did ... so what? They also fought 3 wars .. 2 of them preempted by Israel and now Egypt and Israel have a Peace agreement that has been upheld for 28 years without incident .. only to demonstrate that peace can be achieved through diplomacy.
"extermination of the jewish state"
This comment of yours sounds loaded ... You could have easily said "State of Israel". But I bet you are planning on coming back with some nonsense that "they are anti-Semitic" and its all about poor "Jews are hated by Arabs" crap. | |
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| Israel breaks truce...nobody objects
Posted: 8/19/2006 10:39:48 AM | response to msg 212. can you honestly say that no arab/muslim leader has ever called for the extermination of the jewish state, zionist or not.
I didn't say that, ...
Note: Disinformation is a hard habit to kick, obviously. Nobody likes being fooled, but they fear admitting it.
"fool me once shame on you, fool me twice??"
has not either side broken peace accords.
This is the point many miss.
there is no trust, how can two combatants, bloodied and scarred by past acts ever negotiate in good faith. i don't have that answer.
By not violating cease fires, would be a good start.
has not either side broken peace accords.
Amazing, isn't it? How some fail to see the issue beyond one "side".
as for the US being the root cause, what of acts of violence perpertrated againist western societies other than american.
UK, and what other countries have consistantly inspired resentment (systemically), in the regions for almost nine decades?
Contrast the number of civilian deaths in the region and the west since the end of the Ottoman empire. On the west's side of the ratio, the number has many zeros after the decimal point before you get to see a "1".
western societies are so concerned about image that the ability to wage war is compromised.
"Image" is where the real war is being fought, and it perpetuates the cycles of violence, and the revenue generated is astronomical.
Unfortunately, you CAN fool most of the people, ALL of the time, provided you have well placed lobbies with agenda that have a common interest in keeping the hostilities going.
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| Israel breaks truce...nobody objects
Posted: 8/19/2006 10:53:49 AM | missed your point about racism. in the recent past a gay activist was brutally murdered by an islamic group. his stance had not been anti arab/islam. to deny that there is an active movement to further islam thru violence is being blind. please accept my assurances that i am not anti arab. i believe the extremists in either camp drive this conflict for their own gain.
calling for open war against israel is a specious comment on any thread. it's been tried several times by organized military. didn't go so well. i just believe neither side is without blame, my concern with many of the posters here is the rabid anti US, anti israel slant that emerge from their posts. note i did not include anti arab because if push comes to shove and i HAVE to pick sides it isn't going to be arab/persian. this doesn't mean these individuals are without guilt. just as the real conflict is probably unsolveable in our time, so is this debate. just be thankfull you live where you are allowed to have it.
here would be an interesting test of openminded society.
first take your soap box to a major US city. climb aboard and begin a anti US diatribe.
now do the same in Damascus, Cairo or Qom, but take the opposing view. | |
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| Self Defense?
Posted: 8/19/2006 10:57:04 AM | Hey Irish....
re:msg 176
I didn't put any restrictions on anybodys ability to email me.... If you want to carry on this conversation, contact me via my bio on this site, I'd be happy to converse further... :)
Paul K | |
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| Self Defense?
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:08:39 AM | Hey epsilonbj
re:msg#180
Please enlighten all us so ignorant as to not know what you feel, as to what exactly is land tht belongs to Israel, and what doesn't...... Please keep it simple for me so I can understand. Is it just what they were "given" by the UN in 1948, or what?
As far as your alluding to the Israelli "propaganda machine" as nazi-like, do me a favor: Obviously you have a capability to resaearch out little known facts. Could you please research out and tell me what Yassir Arrafat's original name was, and a short bio on his life? A short paragraph would be more that sufficient...... I would appreciate that seeing how I really am limited in my knowledge of computer use... Thanks up front..
Paul K
PS, this really is relevant, and that will be borne out once he answers.......... and please don't leave out any of the salient details of his parents, what work they did, etc.... | |
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arri
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Joined: 10/5/2005
Msg: 209 | |
| Self Defense?
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:10:57 AM |
here would be an interesting test of openminded society.
first take your soap box to a major US city. climb aboard and begin a anti US diatribe.
now do the same in Damascus, Cairo or Qom, but take the opposing view.
I think the reaction would be the same ... everyone would think the guy is cuckoo. Now if you have a 1000 people and there is show of anger, I am betting some kind of clash is going to happen between the demonstrators, the local people nd the police in any of those places. | |
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| Colonize the Middle East!!!
Posted: 8/19/2006 1:03:11 PM |
"cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war."
But for a missed comma; Perfect. The concern with image is appropriate when dealing with other countries who have a concern for the same image. It is the act of stateless terrorism that disrupts the paradigm. Hezbollah is clearly stateless, but in the most recent conflicts, not as "terrorist" as many are willing to portray it. Based on their history, one can expect a few crocodile tears to be shed when they cry havoc. Although their targetting tactics have become more directed to military objectives, they still have left much room for question on whether they are using civilians as shields. The latter allegation, if confirmed, is a great crime against humanity and seemingly a ruse to cry havoc. The world is growing weary of the ruses and deceptions.
The civility of the world has historically cycled between civility and barbarism, and the events of the present are enticing many of those with civil views to accept, appease, condone, or outright support; a more barbaric approach. The Middle Ages saw a fall of civilization so great that the moniker "Dark Ages" was applied to the time that Islam rose and fell in Andalusia, and it took several hundred years before civility was again approached. The barbarian at the gate became the barbarian within. Dictorial regimes flourished, and the people suffered the barbaric rule to protect them from the alien forces. Many, of course, had no choice; as the military filled up with soldiers willing to fight the enemy and repress the masses in loyalty to the governing powers.
Msg: 214
It seems to me that most of the existing countries on this planet were arrived at by someone deciding...for any number of reasons.... to kick someones elses asses and move in.
The Nations of the World (read UN or victors of WWII), in an attempt to stem the barbaric tide of the Nazi and Axis regimes, placed boundaries on countries, and effectively made imperialism and colonialism illegal. In doing so, they also made ground warfare ineffective. What use is it to take ground if you cannot exploit the economic benefit? Evidently those who follow the money to the munitions manufacturers have found a way to blame an elitist few who enjoys a benefit while the majority suffers economic repression. Blaming the manufacturers for the conflicts has a certain whacko fringe ignorance (with all due respect to those who have the intellect to think this far through) of the simple fact that businesses routinely exploit an extant situation that will be profitable. The UN and the World Government structure is what creates the condition, and it might be better to examine the cause, rather than the effect. This should return us to the root of that business advantage, which is the theoretical end of colonialism. As the next paragraphs suggest; colonialism is far from ended, and its end was less that beneficial.
Now that I have explained how this relates to the current conflict, I would pose a simple question: "Is the world any better without colonial powers?" Did South Africa become a vibrant economy when they managed to rebel? Have all of the poor been fed by freedom and democracy? How many former colonial governments have been replaced by governments equally repressive or more so than the colonial governments they displaced? Did the People lose WWII, while the barbaric powers (of the military industrial complex) won? I dare say that the people of the civilized nations did not lose, but those in third world countries who lost the advantage of technologies and protections of colonial power did, and the people who did not lose represent a minority and are viewed as oppressionists anyway, by economic default. Perhaps kicking their asses and moving in would be no less detrimental to their economies or their human rights. It is yet to be attempted since the end of WWII.
Another question that arises out of this situation, is whether Islam represents a de-facto colonial power, and is effectively illegal by default. I expect much debate on this question, and arguments to agree, disagree, divert, and obfuscate as is normally found on this forum. It is a relatively simple observation to see that many of the World's hot-spots are on the borders of Islamic controlled real estate. Can those who would argue the various facets of what has transpired since WWII actually dispute that the Middle East has been colonized by Islam? What happened to the millions of Christians who lived in that region? Most Armenians already know. WWI involved a colonial power in that region. Has it risen again? Myself, I would much more tolerant of Islam if it ddn't represent a colonial force that has continually absorbed real estate since the fall of the Ottoman Empire; mostly by the sword, and occasionally by apparent genocide. Stateless perhaps, but colonial nonetheless, and quite capable of creating political propaganda that distracts from the main cause, and creates incidental effect. I think that world powers should revisit the subject of colonialism. | |
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| Self Defense?
Posted: 8/19/2006 1:21:09 PM |
Please enlighten all us so ignorant as to not know what you feel, as to what exactly is land tht belongs to Israel, and what doesn't...... Please keep it simple for me so I can understand. Is it just what they were "given" by the UN in 1948, or what?
As far as your alluding to the Israelli "propaganda machine" as nazi-like, do me a favor: Obviously you have a capability to resaearch out little known facts. Could you please research out and tell me what Yassir Arrafat's original name was, and a short bio on his life? A short paragraph would be more that sufficient...... I would appreciate that seeing how I really am limited in my knowledge of computer use... Thanks up front..
1- Resolution 242. I do not represent the palestinians people but I would think that 242 would be acceptable to them.
if the palestinians do not get their land back, I suggest that all the native american tribes start their own " take back your land because your ancestors once lived on this land and never went anywhere else" (as opposed to those who left and came back to claim it after 2000 years.) then we will see what fox and the rest of the free media has to say
If a land grabbing principle if applied once somewhere with succes, it can become a legitimate principle for others to apply. Bush may have to part with his ranch after all.
2- Arafat is no different than the war criminals Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir and Ariel Sharon. you can maybe post a table comparing their crimes and let people decide whose hands are dripping with the blood of 1000's of innocents. you may be surprised by the result.
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| Colonize the Middle East!!!
Posted: 8/19/2006 1:44:09 PM | the fall of the Ottoman Empire
The start of the whole mess IMO, ...still paying for mistakes made and the duplicity of the UK, re:
Hussein-McMahon Correspondence
Sykes-Picot Agreement
The UK enlisted the help of the Arabs to fight a proxy war, Arabs helped secure (what is now) Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, large parts of the Arabian peninsula and southern Syria. Not knowing that the Brits had already betrayed them.
What's interesting about the 600 years previous to that is: If it wasn't for the Muslim Sultinate of the Ottoman Empire and it's acceptance of Jews to the point of bringing them from Europe, it's quite possible that a real genocide would have occurred at the the hands of the Spanish Inquisition and the many pogroms in Europe.
YAVUZ SULTAN SELIM 1470 - 1520
By conquering Egypt, he had put an end to the "Law of no return" issued by the Roman Senate in the year 60 AD. The expulsion process was completed in the year 120. Meaning it took 60 years from Titus to Hadrian. Jews could travel freely for 400 years until the British conquered Palestine in 1917 and restricted again the entry of Jews into Palestine.
Back-stabbing and double dealing, .... the Arabs and Jews are still fighting over what was in fact, the UK negotiating in bad faith.
More on-topic though, is the fact that Israel is under investigation for breaking the cease-fire order, the US has not critisized them for this, and Lebanon has not retaliated.
Let's see how this plays out. | |
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| Colonize the Middle East!!!
Posted: 8/19/2006 2:11:26 PM |
More on-topic though, is the fact that Israel is under investigation for breaking the cease-fire order, the US has not critisized them for this, and Lebanon has not retaliated.
Let's see how this plays out.
Agreed. I've been attempting to view the Main Stream Media for a glimpse of the World's reaction, but the story is conspicuously absent. I have disliked the media for some time, so this is no change in my position. The spin machines must be churning and winding. I hope they hurry so I can know how I am going to bash Bush and hate America for this. | |
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| Ignorance is a hard habit to break
Posted: 8/19/2006 2:49:22 PM |
Agreed. I've been attempting to view the Main Stream Media for a glimpse of the World's reaction, but the story is conspicuously absent. I have disliked the media for some time, so this is no change in my position. The spin machines must be churning and winding. I hope they hurry so I can know how I am going to bash Bush and hate America for this.
I've been reading a few Israeli and Lebanese newspaper sites, and a few in Europe. I think that if Lebanon keeps from using it as an excuse to retaliate, ...there's some hope that the cease-fire can hold a bit longer. Ball's in their court.
I hope they hurry so I can know how I am going to bash Bush and hate America for this.
Hopefully more people can debate the policy issues and avoid "Bush" ad hominums for the sake of non-sequitur, and misplaced anger against the people of any of the involved nations, ...this only serves to further obfuscate the issues and negates reasoned discourse.
But, ignorance is a hard habit to break | |
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arri
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Joined: 10/5/2005
Msg: 215 | |
| Tired of stupid titles.
Posted: 8/19/2006 2:52:44 PM |
Let's see how this plays out.
Typical Israeli policy ... to test a situation to see if it can get away with it. Apparently, their objective wasn't met anyway.
I have a feeling that Israel got a pass for this one but with reassurances from the US to the Arab League that it won't happen again and they are trying to kill the story. I don't think either side wants to get into it again. | |
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| Tired of stupid titles.
Posted: 8/19/2006 2:55:55 PM | ^^^ it's neither the first nor the last provocation by israel, that peace loving, land grabbing, innocent victim playing country. true that their objective wasn't met but it does not mean that israel will stop provoking incidents they can turn into wars with the great satan: Iran.
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| Tired of biased spin.
Posted: 8/19/2006 3:17:00 PM | CNN is reporting that "There were no Lebanese army or Hezbollah casualties," but fails to include civilians. They have also specified the Israeli spin that they were attempting to enforce the resolution in preventing arms transfers and blew up a bridge to prevent arms shipments from Syria.
The Hezbollah disputed the claim with their spin and; "called Israel's raid "proof that the Israeli enemy is still carrying on with its aggression ... and that it doesn't care about the resolutions taken by the U.N. Security Council."" | |
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| Tired of biased spin.
Posted: 8/19/2006 3:32:24 PM | let's see: israel can re-arm at will but hezbollah can't? anyway, israel signed a cease fire but it wants to be judge and jury. it's up to the UN force monitoring the cease-fire to take actions and prevent whatever it is they are there to prevent. israel can't have it both ways. either you respect the cease-fire or you don't. there is really no middle ground. but israel has always done that anyway so why are we expecting it to behave like a civilized country this time and respect a UN resolution. remember 242, 344, 555, 888, 999........it does not matter what the number is, israel has never abided by a UN resolution.
resolution 000 is calling for israel to invade its neighbours and occupy their land, kill all civilians that did not have time or means to flee and build a western democracy on the ruins of middle eastern countries........... that's the only resolution israel will abide by
ps: 344, 555, 888, 999 are not UN resolutions but are used to get the point accross. | |
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| Israel breaks truce...nobody objects
Posted: 8/19/2006 3:34:26 PM | i just believe neither side is without blame, my concern with many of the posters here is the rabid anti US, anti israel slant that emerge from their posts.
My starting position: Both sides need to stop fighting a negotiate honestly.
Extreme side #1: Hezbollah is all wrong, it's all their fault; they need to be destroyed; go Israel go; Israel can't deal with these evil people...etc, etc, etc.
That only leaves the option of pointing out Israel has also done many wrongs and trying to undemonize Hezbollah (or whatever other group, the extreme side is demonizing). If the extreme keeps arguing from their extreme position, they'll keep getting a similar reply. Obviously Hezbollah (or whoever) are no choir boys. But, if someone uses their actions as an excuse to call for more death and destruction, then they're just the same as the opposing extreme, IMO.
Extreme side #2: Still haven't seen it posted. Who has posted that Hezbollah (or whoever) should keep attacking Israel and try and kill all the IDF and the Israeli government?
If I saw it posted, I'd disagree with that point of view, as well.
missed your point about racism.
I was refering to racism in the Netherlands reaching political levels. The nationalism of Pim Fortuyn: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/pim-fortuyn.html
Peace | |
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/19/2006 3:35:23 PM | My question is: why is it ok for the US to support totalitarian regiemes (when and how it suits them) ie: Panama, Iraq, and the Taliban, and use these people to meet thier own agendas, and then when these petty meat packers get tired of being the lackey for the States, they're evil?
The US subversively creates monsters it can't control to propagate it's own ends; more money coming in to fight off this weeks enemy!
Do you know anything about the story of Frankenstien? Who is to blame? Who is more evil; the monster, who is only doing what he was created to do, or the mad scientist who created him that way?!!!
History has never vindicated this type of foriegn policy and NEVER will!! | |
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| Who thinks that what Hezbollah is really doing the right thing
Posted: 8/19/2006 3:38:09 PM | OP subject Hezbollah....
Discussion takes in the Israeli breaking of UN 1701 with air and ground attack.
They have also specified the Israeli spin that they were attempting to enforce the resolution in preventing arms transfers and blew up a bridge to prevent arms shipments from Syria.
I would like to point out that nothing in UN 1701 states that Israel has the right to resume hostilities under any pretense.
1701: "cesation of hostilities" does not allow Israel to bomb, rocket and kill, for any reason.
Israel has legally started a second Lebanon war. Whtether or not Lebanon immediately retaliates is irrelevant.
1701 is history. There is no "moralization" to breaking the law, especially when you signed it.
OP asked: "Who thinks that what Hezbollah is really doing the right thing?", well it obvious that Israel has compeltely thrown away UN 1701 and Hezbollah has not retaliated, letting Israel fry on the rack of world opinion. | |
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| Tired of biased spin.
Posted: 8/19/2006 3:42:26 PM |
israel can re-arm at will but hezbollah can't?
I'm thinking that you should read the terms of the agreement. Yes, Israel can re-arm, and so can Lebanon. Hezbollah cannot. Is that too difficult? Hezbollah is not a signatory nation to the Geneva Convention or a member State of the UN. I would think if they want more favorable treatment, they might want to get involved in the process, no? | |
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| Who thinks that what Hezbollah is really doing the right thing
Posted: 8/19/2006 3:45:22 PM | Israel signed 1701, it did not have the legal right to attack. Cesation of hostilities was the language of 1701.
Citation of Israel hostilities:
This is technically a second war now. Israel started this second war.
Israel did not have the ability to enforce 1701. Because the UN or Interpol does not perform to enforce international law to your satisfaction does not give you, as a nation, the right to violate that same said international law.
Israel is a rogue nuclear state and must be taken out. It clearly is not abiding by any international law and not even it's own agreements.
Israel does not see other nations as equal. Israel see itself as above the law that applies to other humans. | |
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| Tired of biased spin.
Posted: 8/19/2006 3:51:51 PM |
1701: "cesation of hostilities" does not allow Israel to bomb, rocket and kill, for any reason.
Have they?
Cite?
well it obvious that Israel has compeltely thrown away UN 1701
Nope, it's obvious that there isn't enough to go on yet, good time to keep the knee from hitting chin.
and Hezbollah has not retaliated, letting Israel fry on the rack of world opinion.
Waiting is good sometimes.
Yes, Israel can re-arm, and so can Lebanon. Hezbollah cannot.
Yup
Hezbollah is not a signatory nation to the Geneva Convention or a member State of the UN. I would think if they want more favorable treatment, they might want to get involved in the process, no?
They need to concentrate on the political end, and evolve out of terrorism.
Israel is a rogue nuclear state and must be taken out.
Doesn't dignify commenting on.
It clearly is not abiding by any international law and not even it's own agreements.
Plenty o' those on the globe.
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| Who thinks that what hezbollah is doing really is the right thing?
Posted: 8/19/2006 3:55:14 PM | | Of course Hezbollah is not doing the right thing. They are a bunch of crazed men in a crazed religion. They should take up gardening and growing fig trees instead of lobbing rockets over the border. And someone needs to teach them that Allah doesn't think it's cool for them to become suicide bombers and chop people's heads off. | |
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