| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/20/2005 12:36:25 PM | Other verses from the Bible confirm that Jesus is the beginning of creation, since He created everything:
Jesus may have been the beginning of creation but this doesn't mean he had no beginning.
...Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7)
This quote suggests to me that Jesus had the image of God but did not consider himself equal to God.
Verses confirming Jesus is uncreatedOther obvious verses from the Bible do speak of Jesus' lack of origin:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
This presumes the verse is about Jesus. Jesus isn't called Eternal Father so it would appear not to be about[/qoute]
The Bible says In the beginning was the Word. and the Word was with God and the Word was God the Word was made flesh and dwelt amoung us. Jesus is referd to as the Word of God. Jesus also said He who hath seen me hath seen The father. He also said I and my father are one. This would appear his is God would it not? | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/20/2005 1:53:11 PM | "He also said I and my father are one. This would appear his is God would it not?"
This is a very literal translation. It could also mean that god is a part of Jesus, his spirit (for lack of a better term) is in Jesus, just as Jesus's spirit is in god. (and god and jesus is in all of us).
Perhaps the Word is the essence of what makes everything in the universe possible. Perhaps it is impossible (at this point in time/evolution) to understand this essence. God, goddess, supreme being, whatever, is merely an attempt to explain something we don't yet have the means to understand. | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/20/2005 8:58:32 PM |
He also said I and my father are one. This would appear his is God would it not?
The Bible also talks about Christians being one with Christ. I guess they are God too. | |
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funn1
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Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 59 | |
| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/21/2005 12:07:17 AM | | So count if you dont belive why do you want to keep talking to ppl who do? | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/21/2005 1:28:54 AM |
You can choose to be literal here but then I'll demand that you be literal everywhere.
Great point, Count. Fundamentalist Christians are notorious for insisting on a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible -- but ONLY when it suits them and supports the particular doctrinal axe that they are grinding at the time. At other times, they insist on a "spiritual" interpretation; they can't have it both ways, can they? | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/21/2005 8:40:03 PM | | Funn, I think Christianity is dangerous to society and the freedoms we enjoy in the West. I hope to get people thinking about their beliefs so that they will leave their faith and make the world a better place. | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/21/2005 9:02:57 PM | | You worry about freedoms of others yet you attack Christians for their beliefs so much to the point I believe you would abolish it. As your post would seem to project. A bit hypocritical don't you think? | |
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funn1
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Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 63 | |
| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/21/2005 9:28:47 PM | Funn, I think Christianity is dangerous to society and the freedoms we enjoy in the West. I hope to get people thinking about their beliefs so that they will leave their faith and make the world a better place.
That is truly sad. I am so sorry you feel that way, Christ has mad my life as well of thousands more better.
I think ppl with the attitude you have are more the problem in our society. I hope you can come out of the dark and know your creator. | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/21/2005 10:37:45 PM | CountIbli, you said that "I think Christianity is dangerous to society and the freedoms we enjoy in the West. I hope to get people thinking about their beliefs so that they will leave their faith and make the world a better place.
Actually, it is "Faith" and "Spritualisum" that holds society and the world together. There have been so many Serial Killers that once they quit believing in a God then naturally they quit believing in a hell, so "what the hell" LOL, why hold back in anything you do? If there is no hell (like the Jehovah's Witnesses" and seemingly, you too CountIbli), why hold back EVER?
Kill anyone that gets in your way, lie, steal, cheat.............without a Christ/God/Lucifer/heaven/hell concept, there is no reason whatsoever to be a moral human being. It makes more sense if there is no God, to figure out a way to rob a bank, steal a car, or just take what you want.
I hope you aren't able to get people to believe that if they die then they just die! Being a Jehovahs Witness would work for me. I wouldnt' worry about working my way to heaven, because I can do whatever I want and when I die........guess what? I am just dead....I think just being dead after death is a wonderful way to believe, because that takes all the pressure off trying to be good, so you will go to heaven. I think both CountIbli and Jehovahs Witness' beliefs are stupid and dangerous. ie; no hell? no worries........go for it. If it feels good, do it! If there is no bill to be paid for evil doing, then why worry? For me? I will serve the Lord...............Tracy (buccaneer38) | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/21/2005 11:10:20 PM | | I see what you're saying Tracy (in a "using a shotgun to kill a fly" kind of way), but from what I hear about the children of JWs, they are often quite horrified at the prospect of oblivion after death. In order to attain heaven, they must forgo birthday parties, Christmas, and any other holidays that have become particularly memorable for children. I hear that the level of fear and guilt is pretty extreme for JW children. | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/22/2005 3:23:13 AM | Well, really I don't know that much specifically about Jehovah's Witnessess. I actually dated a married Jehovah's Witness while I was in college (prior to my own understanding that sleeping with another mans wife is serious business). They did have a Christmas tree, but it was because her husband wasn't a Jehovah's witness, just the wife. It was Christmas time when I came to her house while he was elsewhere. When I was leaving, she reached under the Christmas tree and gave me one of the presents that she had wrapped for him........What an odd memory huh? It is a multifacited bad memory for me. Remembering my evil deed and remembering my evil deed............
I work in a hospital and often I see the results of parents and children of Jehovah's witness's refusing blood and blood products in order to follow their belief systems. I used to be very against not receiving blood but with the AIDS thing, I am less likely to receive blood myself, however it isn't related to a belief system.
I can't imagine being horrified at the prospect of oblivion after death myself. As I get older, the grave or more appropriately "oblivion" after death seems more like a reward for the suffering we all have faced to some degree here on earth.
In my own case, since my divorce, I tend to believe more and more that my own hell is here on earth, but I sure don't want to taket the chance that I might get two hells, one here on earth and another after I pass the great divide. Tracy (buccaneer38) | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/22/2005 5:17:30 PM | Littlewin, I'm an anarchist, so no I don't seek to abolish it. Besides, making it forbidden would just make more people want to be Christians. I'd rather convince people of the dangers of Christianity.
Funn1, look to history to see how dangerous your religion is. Every time Christianity becomes dominant the result is oppression. Even today Christianity is the driving force behind anti-homosexual legislation, Creationist lies, opposition to medical advances through stem cell research, banning of books, opposition to reproductive choice, opposition to religious freedom, etc.
Tracy, the prison population of Christians is disproprotionately high compared to the non-prison population of Christians. OTOH, the Atheist prison population is disproportionately low. It would seem that Atheists are less likely to commit crimes than Christians. It's not too difficult to see why. Christians think their sins are forgiven and have no incentive not to commit crimes. Atheists, OTOH, realize that negative consequences for bad behavior happen here and now. We also realize that humans are social animals and if humans are to survive we should cooperate with each other. Christians see themselves as instruments of God's vengeance so they're more likely to murder people who are gay, abortion doctors, civil libertarians, non-Christian, black, etc. | |
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funn1
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Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 68 | |
| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/22/2005 5:26:31 PM | Funn1, look to history to see how dangerous your religion is. Every time Christianity becomes dominant the result is oppression. Even today Christianity is the driving force behind anti-homosexual legislation, Creationist lies, opposition to medical advances through stem cell research.
So it goes against what you think is OK so its bad? | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/22/2005 7:24:58 PM | | I agree with you as well JW's are very corrupt..lolz.. they don't really understand that..however that is how most cults work.. they brain wash intot crazy ideas and beliefs | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/23/2005 7:23:12 PM |
So it goes against what you think is OK so its bad?
Yes. | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/23/2005 7:43:17 PM | Safteypin,
You do of course realize that at one time Christianity was considered a Cult.
And JW's don't fit the definition of Cult either. | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/24/2005 12:42:03 PM | | You are such a troll Grod, just looking to pick a fight. I know exactly where Garf is, and he's happy and healthy and not having to deal with you and your multiple delusions...hrm..Im going to join garf in that Happy Place...later! | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/24/2005 3:52:25 PM | JW
Ingore them!! About a month or so ago, they almost came into our house opened our front door and almost got in.
Just lock the door and don't let them in!! | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/27/2005 8:23:49 AM | Motif,
Again I say....JW's are as much a cult as Christians are.
Do you believe that Christians are brain washed? | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/27/2005 9:37:09 AM |
Just lock the door and don't let them in!!
Actually I've found if you politely tell them you're not interested they go away. Too bad we can't do the same with Pat Robertson. | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:14:29 PM | Today, whatever the subject, everyone is twisted by his or her beliefs. Religions are distorting the Truth and governments are no better for withholding information. Neither can handle the Truth, this is the crust of the situation and this is why it’s high time humanity, for the sake of humanity, is informed by disclosure.
As a studying Jehovah’s Witness I was often told to look at the ‘bigger picture’; something I have always done. My concern is that at no time was there any benevolence shown towards people like me who felt uneasy about what was being read. Moving to different congregations made little to no improvement. Such was my concern that I wrote to them but nothing was returned. I was not too discouraged because I’d always believed in God. I was bought up that way. Now though, I knew something was terribly wrong. I travelled to the States in my quest to understand the ‘Truth’ and attended a congregation there, thinking it was maybe down to the area I lived in. After all I would be closer to the actual origin of Jehovah’s Witnesses. My fears grew from that point on.
The Truth, from a biblical source, on the face of it all, may look a cut and dried affair. But if you liken it to a black and white photograph and look very closely you will see many grey areas. One could take many scriptural passages that point to the violent deaths of thousands upon thousands of ordinary people from infanticide to massacres. According to the Old Testament, Jehovah’s wrath was well short of any benevolence to his creation. His only concern was that he bothered to create us in the first place!
I put it to you that if, as Jehovah’s, we were given a choice between what is seen to be right and wrong, bearing in mind that as children inexperience and therefore lack of knowledge come into play, not only will our imperfections force the issue of choice, but also our frustrations to know the difference. Thus, life is not black and white; the grey areas become much more of an open question. The outcome is a high probability of bias, and therefore a miscarriage of justice.
If you consider the creator to be the Biblical God, be the deity an ‘it’ or a ‘he’ whatever His name may be, you will know of his omniscience. He knew I would write this, He knew before the point of creation that His plan would fail; He knew that because of His plan billions of people (His creations) would die tortuous deaths. He knew, even before the creation of time itself that He would fail. My question is WHY? Why would one put creation through something He knew would fail, fail to live up to His perfect standards? Why use people who were made perfect to become tempted by the devil? What kind of a game is that? I’ll tell you what kind of sadistic game it is… one we were never meant to win… this is the Truth. Now tell me what is the sense in all of this? | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:29:04 PM | When we look at the world and recognize that a holy and infinitely perfect God has created us, we can appreciate His majesty and wonder. But, it is impossible for us to ignore the fact that this world is far from perfect. There is sin in it. Why, then, if God is infinitely perfect and powerful, did He create a world and allow the fall to occur to contaminate it?
The Bible doesn't give us specific answer to this question, but I would like to offer this possible answer as food for thought.
God did not lack anything in Himself that prompted His creative act. He wasn't lonely or bored. To say such a thing about Him would be to imply He is not eternally self-sufficient and perfect. But, if God is perfect and doesn't need anything, why would He then create us -- and the universe for us to live in -- that has fallen into sin? What purpose would it serve?
I suspect the answer lies within God's nature and a few clues spread throughout God's word. To begin with, God is love (1 John 4:16) and the nature of love is to give. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son..." I cannot help but believe that the most natural quality of love is to give, to be other centered, and, according to Jesus' own words, to give of one's self to the point of death. John 15:13 is where Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."
According to Jesus, there is no greater demonstration of love than self sacrifice to the point of death. Since God is love (1 John 4:16) and there is none greater than He, I conclude that God can and will be the one who demonstrates the greatest act of love. I cannot see God allowing a mere creation to demonstrate this in a better way than He. It would be a necessary outcome of His own nature and a necessary manifestation in any universe He created that the two greatest commandments spoken of by Jesus to love God and love your neighbor (xxx) would be supremely demonstrated by none other than God Himself. Jesus was God in flesh who loved the Father perfectly and He loved us completely by laying down His life for us. This is the greatest and most perfect act of love according to Jesus.
If this is true, then it might just be that God had to create the universe so that the fall would be included in His plan for the very purpose of demonstrating and manifesting His perfect character: Love! To demonstrate the very greatest part of His nature of love, He would have to die for someone else. This could not be done if there was no one to die for and no reason to die for them. There could be no reason to die if there were no need for an atonement. There would be no need for an atonement if there were no sin. If there was no fall, there would be no sin.
Therefore, perhaps it is possible that God created the universe with "free will" creatures in it who would fall into sin. Without this fall, ultimately no death would be necessary to atone for them and without that death, the greatest act of love could not be demonstrated. Also, this would mean that the truest and most perfect quality of love would not be fulfilled. Would this then mean that God would not be perfectly fulfilled without having given of Himself? I don't know. But I can't help wondering that for God to truly express His perfectly loving nature, He Himself had to be one who laid His life down for others. For this to happen, He allowed sin to exist in this world.
Furthermore, I suspect that it was Jesus Himself in the garden who walked with Adam and Eve. I base this upon Jesus' own words in John 6:46 where He states that no one has ever seen the Father. Yet, we know that God appeared in the Old Testament (Gen. 17:1; 18:1; Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-8; Acts 7:2; etc.). If it was God who was seen and it wasn't the Father, then it must have been Jesus. Why do I bring this up? Because after Adam and Eve sinned, God Himself (Jesus?) shed the blood of an animal in order to cover them with animal skins. This shedding of blood was instituted by God as a prophetic typology of the true and final sacrifice that God (Jesus) would carry out so many thousands of years later when He laid His life down as the perfect demonstration of His loving character. The redemption of mankind was always in the mind of God and was planned and carried out by God as a manifestation of the eternal love He has for His people. This love was made complete in the death of Christ. Also, I suspect that this is what is hinted at in Heb. 13:20 with the reference to the "blood of the eternal covenant" that some theologians think is reference to God's eternal plan of salvation made within the Trinity before the universe was made. This covenant was the inter-Trinitarian arrangement to redeem mankind through the sacrifice of Christ.
Therefore, I conclude that God may very well have made a universe in which sin existed so that He Himself could show the greatest and most perfect act of love by laying down His life for His friends. | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:50:37 PM | Permit me to continue On Topic...
Are these Christian Values?
1. Labouring over Watchtower articles is an intemperance, which calls for moderation.
2. Christ was assertive in a bold way, never forcefully ambitious or supercilious.
3. Confidence is not inspired when Jehovah’s Witnesses become fractious over a series of pertinent questions.
4. Jehovah would not expect us to conform to those biblical standards because we are too far from perfection.
4.1 Single-mindedness and puritanical attitudes don’t take account of individual Feelings /thoughts/opinions.
5. Failure to admit mistakes, both verbal and in given literature.
6. It is most disturbing when scriptures convey violent and sexually explicit details – so how should we deal with them? It is not the answer to refrain from addressing them (counsel should be used discreetly). Caution should be used for minors and those with phobic disorders.
a) I think the Jehovah’s Witnesses movement needs revolutionizing. Sadly this would be seen as sacrosanct… inviolable.
b) During my time of study and Kingdom Hall participation I have developed misgivings about their teaching methods. These methods do 'stress to excess'.
c) I would describe the majority of members to be friendly and assertive while others appear to be overly ambitious or even lofty. Others can be fractious (irritable) puritanical (prudish) strict and harsh, uncompromising (stubborn). Some appear to be well meaning but erroneous, mistaken or incorrect. Most of these are not positive characteristics of a Christian. Christ was meek and mild (a submissive, perfect human being) he was not reclusive (did not avoid or refuse to listen, and showed acceptance for people outside the truth). When questioned He was not irritable but kind and approachable.
d) Is it necessary to be sycophantic when expressing one’s commitment to Jehovah? Over attentiveness in order to gain favour or fawning? (trying to please by a show of extreme affection) Rhetorical questions but I attempt to answer them anyway.
e) Are we stooges, implements to be used (have been)? Maybe not so applicable today as Bible prophecies are almost complete (given that we are living in the last days).
f) Acknowledgements of Jehovah’s supreme status are necessary, and to a degree should be seen to be recognized intermittently. Nothing though could be gained from sycophantic responses, as God knows the true heart condition of the individual.
Of the Bible:
· *Sexually explicit details serve no spiritual invoking of divine aid to the reader.
· The taking of life by ‘Jehovah’s people’ with His divine guidance isn’t just ‘unpleasant’ it is particularly heinous. On the face of it, it is man who wields the killing blow but it is God who instigates the action.
1. *Erotic material is thought of as sinful yet here we read it in the pages
of the most important and widely published book of all time, i.e. ‘Songs of Solomon’.
2. Down the ages man has raged war using the battle cry "With God is on our side" pertaining to those wars as ‘Holy Wars’ or ‘Great Wars’ irrespective of religious affiliation.
I believe death is an injustice because life was given freely. Therefore aversion to the indiscriminate taking of it from whatever realm of iniquity or equity should be derived. I feel there can be no compromise on the given sanctity of it in my view.
Question:
Should I be seen as subversive because I express simple human concerns?
Open-mindedness doesn’t deride. It creates healthy debate.
*I would personally like a full explanation for the justification of their inclusion and what they merit. | |
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| Jehovah's Witnesses
Posted: 11/27/2005 4:44:13 PM | Motif;
I don't want to get off topic and this is sliding that way so I'll make it brief.
You make a point clear here, motif, but my point cannot be answered by the bible. It is way to full of discrepancies, be it man's doing or just plain lies. Do I need Job to enlighten me? I think not. Of the many points I made the one you raised I will answer. God knew way before time how things would pan out... if not, then He wasn't/isn't omniscient. | |
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