|
|
|
|
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/9/2007 5:04:03 AM |
And I say there is no way you can know the truth.
If there is no way you can know the truth, then my view is not false -- and therefore why are you arguing against me? (We shall ignore the fact that the statement "there is no way you can know the truth" is therefore itself not true, because if it is then there is at least some truth one can know, which contradicts your statement. It's called self-referential nonsense for a reason.)
And you will never find truth by alienating people. You just look arrogant.
First of all, here you assert more incoherent nonsense. If "there is no way you can know the truth," well then the statement "you will never find truth by alienating people" is incoherent. If I stop alienating people, will I find truth? According to your previous statement, no. If there is no way one can know the truth, then it is completely irrelevant whether I alienate people or not. You need to think things through more clearly.
Secondly, the only way I could be considered arrogant is if my pride is unwarranted. But if I actually know what I claim to know, then it is warranted. If I asserted that the capital city of Australia is Canberra, is that arrogant? Of course not; it's simply true.
They call it the unknown for a reason, lol! Or do you claim to know truth? lol!
There are countless things that are unknown, but that's not what you said, is it? You made a reference to the "unknowable" and THAT'S what is self-contradicting nonsense. To state that something is unknowable is to state something known about it; ergo, self-contradiction. Who's spouting nonsense? So far, you are.
Sounds like unfounded pride to me!
You'll have to excuse me but I really could not care less about what it sounds like to you. Your feelings and opinions do not define reality into existence. This universe existed before you were born and will continue to exist long after you decompose. Perhaps you scoff at science and deny these sort of things, but again that only tells us something about you. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/9/2007 11:10:50 AM | If I stop alienating people, will I find truth?
You will hear different variables on truth... Everyone has some in them, I think... It is the similarities of our personal truths which will lead to the grand truth(imo)... But none are more important than others...
Secondly, the only way I could be considered arrogant is if my pride is unwarranted. But if I actually know what I claim to know, then it is warranted. If I asserted that the capital city of Australia is Canberra, is that arrogant? Of course not; it's simply true.
First of all, we aren't talking about geography, we are talking about things unseen and unproven... Kind of a poor analogy... You can prove the capital cities... You cannot prove to know what happens when we die... That is what I meant by knowing the unknowable... To know absolutely, you must have proof(for others as well as yourself)
This universe existed before you were born and will continue to exist long after you decompose. Perhaps you scoff at science and deny these sort of things, but again that only tells us something about you
I have no idea where you got this from, lol!! I am a follower of science...
Could you please quote me a post of mine which denies science? | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/9/2007 11:48:52 PM |
God has determined all events for the sum of human experience and we enjoy a genuine free agency necessary for moral accountability.
huh? A genuine free agency vs. a false one? Accountability for which morals exactly as defined by whom? And accountablity to who/what? And what would be the purpose or objective of this accountability?
To say Goddidit for every thing we can't explain is a cop-out and intellectually irresponsible. It is not a cop-out for those who, like me, mean it sincerely and fully—in every situation, not just when it's convenient.
Then please offer an explanation as to WHY God killed the pregnant mother? And how would your "moral accountability" come into play in such a random tragic event? | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/10/2007 12:13:25 AM |
This is one of the classic debates.Yet ive never met one christian who could out debate a buddhist.The bible is full of holes in its philosophy as buddhism is rich and complex
Christians and Buddhists have nothing to do with this debate. It is a very old debate that antedates christianity. Nor is the bible part of the debate. To argue for destiny or predetermined does not presuppose the existence of a god. Could there be other forces at work other than "god"? Could free will be an illusion? When you can think outside of religion and the supremacy of intellectual control, you will start to offer insightful debate. Otherwise you are limited by your narrow beliefs in god or buddha or science. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/10/2007 2:08:34 AM | You're right... Sorry about that, didn't mean to highjack the thread...guess I got carried away...
I've already said it, but to bring me back on topic... I do believe we have free will even with predestination because I believe that together we are God... | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/10/2007 7:59:46 PM | You didn't highjack the thread. You can't highjack philosophy. It is to think and question. And you never know where that will lead
Free will and predestination are opposing concepts. If you have free will it presupposes that you are in control. If it is predetermined, you are NOT in control. If you belive that both exist, where are the boundaries? When does your free will begin to impose on your god's predetermined plan? Is there a point when your god will say...no no, you can't do that, it's against my will. Then what would be the point of free will? | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/10/2007 8:29:03 PM | If you belive that both exist, where are the boundaries? When does your free will begin to impose on your god's predetermined plan? Is there a point when your god will say...no no, you can't do that, it's against my will. Then what would be the point of free will?
See, my free will IS my god's predetermined plan... (This is where folks say I'm nuts, but I do not claim to know... Just theorizing...)When we took on physical form, we lost contact with this creator(since I believe form started simple and got more complex as WE went along)... Not long ago, we were rocks and sand... Now we are in-formed enough to be human and our brains are starting to piece the puzzle back together... I believe we left clues for ourselves along the way and tho some confused us more than anything, we are making strides to understanding each others views, seeing the similarities and recognizing the beauty of difference... That's all my god wants(ed)... To see difference...
That's why our physical bodies pass away(imo)... For Infinity to exist, nothing may stay the same forever...
If we all conformed to this god's way of looking at things, it would defeat the purpose of creating different views... We, everyone of us has a story to tell...
My god loves stories... Just ask anybody...
You are all my God. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/11/2007 5:54:04 AM | You do not have the free will to violate gravity.
Nor do you have the free will to subvert basic physical laws.
There are a great many social things which we think are free will but really are not.
If you consider that God created the universe, then obviously you have free will only up to the point where you might not comply with the rules and regulations of this creation.
Simply, God's not going to allow you to go screwing around with his universe. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/11/2007 11:57:14 AM | In order to have free will we have to be free, but for the most part we are slaves to our senses and the things of this world, as we free ourselves from the illusions and ignorances we have aquired . We can be in tune with free will which promotes freedom for all, not just your own freedom because at that level of true free will we are all interconnected , and to realize that you have to not be a slave to your ego, which would mean becoming true to your deeper nature which is a selfless one.
Alot of times chaos happens for the purpose of trying to wake us up and move us in an evolutionary direction.
Thanks | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 6/29/2007 7:45:11 PM | | What appears to us as free will is nothing more then an illusion. The fact that God knows everything and that his knowledge is eternal and unchanging means that whatever does happen happens neccesarily according to the foreknowledge of God. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 7/8/2007 2:10:58 PM | Infinitee said that free will "presupposes that you are in control." If this is the case, then no one enjoys free will because there are countless things that are beyond a person's control—including the rather significant and very relevant issue of his very own nature. I cannot control my own nature; what I say, what I believe, what I do, that IS my nature. Things like my genetic material and the desires I experience, these constitute 'who' I am. You can believe 'X' at one point and later change to believe 'Y' instead, but this is not a change in your nature; i.e. although Smith went from believing 'X' to believing 'Y', he did not become someone else. And then there are other, equally obvious things that are beyond a person's control, like the physical laws of the universe, as Nipolean indicated. Since there are countless things that are beyond a person's control, Infinitee must believe that no one possesses a free will.
And I would readily agree with her, as would a number of scholars like Hume and Locke and so forth. And why would I, or such men as Locke, so scandalously admit that humans do not possess a free will? It is a semantic point, but since it is so foundational to a vast array of contingent thinking, it is a very IMPORTANT semantic point that requires precision and clarity. Properly speaking, freedom ought to be predicated of persons, not faculties; i.e. the 'agent' is free, not his 'will'. This is why many scholars, both secular and religious, prefer the term "free agency" over "free will." In ourselves we are free, but we are not free from ourselves. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/11/2008 2:39:07 PM | | It is predestined that a fully functional person will choose his/her path. It is predetermined that a less-than-complete person will be at the mercy of others. IOW, fate is not predetermined for most. Still, the fully functional (probably) cannot exceed their programming. There's not likely to be another Jesus (if there ever was one). Free will is a romantic notion that may be a grand temptation. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/11/2008 4:02:54 PM | | We are in absolute control of nothing becuase everything is connected..this whole life experience is just such a great gift, learn to enjoy the here and now...and be the best person you can be.. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/12/2008 6:54:49 AM | Free will is the ability and opportunity to CHOOSE. That's all.
It is in CHOOSING how we will act in any particular circumstance, how we will view things (positively or negatively) it has NOTHING to do with said circumstances. It has NOTHING to do with the weather, accidents, who you were born to and where, or whether the company is going to can your butt. it is ONLY about how YOU CHOOSE to handle these things.
Animals rarely choose... they have set reactions and instincts to deal with whatever comes their way. If an animals gets a wound it's instinct is to lick it.. this cleans it and usually helps deal with it.... in some cases it aggravates it and makes it worse.. but the animal only has one reaction.. to lick it, for good or bad. We, on the other hand, can look at the wound and DECIDE what treatment may be best for it.. whether it's more painful or not.. and free will is what gives us the ability to CHOOSE to act in a way that may not be instinctual. Don't mess up the concept by bringing in predetermination, because even in a predetermined situation we STILL have free will.... we can still CHOOSE how to act and react. Think of it this way... two children are born to impoverished and abusive parents, one child reacts by adopting their coping skills and "believing" that this is his lot in life (fate) and grows up to be just like his parents and continuing the cycle of poverty and despair... the other child reacts by rejecting this view and bettering himself through whatever means he can, goes to college and becomes a great humanitarion, or scientist, or whatever. His experience or "fate" has the opposite effect on him... because he CHOSE to react to it differently...THAT is free will. Nothing less and nothing more. This is a simplistic example but it illustrates it well.
Even if FATE exists... it doesn't matter... it's not WHAT happens, but how we CHOOSE to interpret and react to it that is the key.
Peace | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/12/2008 10:15:45 PM | God granted us Freewill, and is guiding our use of it to serve his ultimate purpose. He has given us the free will to batlle and fight and suffer against His Laws of Nature, physics notwithstanding.
We were SUPPPOSED to not mix the tribes of Adam and Eve, so They were forced to burn up the rocket fuel left buried for us to escape this planet.
He knows how many of us will survive. He knows exactly what rules we could follow to acheive utopia.
He also being omniscient, knows that we will F' it up.
Even though his presence is issued from every sense that we tune out in our daily struggles for vanity and greed.
Once science emerges at the end of conquering knowledge, the faithful will be standing there waiting to help them aboard the spaceship.
And everything you think and you do affects every human soul living and future.
Death is the physical end of mortality, but what we pursue today is what grants us the best view from the "sticky black stuff" (Lion King).
We are doing it wrong on a global scale, but in a few years, less than a decade, there will be a spiritual breathrough that will bring humanity to the next level, if not through Freewill at the collective human level, then through death and emergency.
God knows what we will choose, but we don't.
We can still decide our path, and God will continue to pave the choices ahead of us.
Our success is not guaranteed. The Pit awaits those of us who fail.
Paul C.
agnostic unitl my NDE (Thank God for cardiac adrenaline injections)
met Jesus in the dark floating above the ICU bed.
Love is the greatest gift, but the most abused is Free Will.
OKC: Any body else going to see RUSH in April?
You can choose a ready God on some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice!
I will choose a path that Clear* I will choose Freewil.
*Clear: Adjective: Meaning: In Gods Plan.
PiEaCe! | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/12/2008 11:47:31 PM | Right on ravenstar66 you hit the nail on the head
finally someone with whom i can relate
and why do people insist on calling an unfortunate series of events an accident
ooopps sorry that was an accident ahhhh no it wasnt you were doing something else when you should have been aware of your free will and how it might effect others
not to imply anyone would do that.lol | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 5:14:13 AM | | very few people think about how their actions affect themselves let alone others. only our ego is more advanced than animals. people impose their will against the freedom of others every day. That is the world we live in, god or no god. I don't see how god has anything to do with the choices we make. my belief is that we are all part of a bigger picture and when we limit someone else's free will we make an ugly spot on the canvas. am I way off or what? | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 8:06:24 AM | No G-d did not kill that woman, there is no death in G-d. Its a tragedy all the same but, if no one would be born on this world then there would be no need for free will or sin or pain and suffering.
Great topic even the debate over Christianity and Buddhism, both taught in parables. You think they use to E-mail there philosophies.
I have got to be the freest person on the planet. Yep, I do not give a living S--t about anything the super market society throws at me.I learn t a long time ago that freewill is detachment. If you owe money to the system you are not free. You took a materialistic approach, and when you do that, you lose your freedom to a point. Your obligated. Freewill is like anything else, its how much of it you are capable of having. One of the reasons why Christ told the rich man its easier for a camel to pass thru a needle than a rich man has of getting into (or creating) heaven. Theres no debate, in G-d you are totally free. Endgame. This why I will never own a house again, I can't take it with me. Why worry over it. I could live in a ditch, oh I did once, when I was hitch hiking, ok, I could live in a trailor, oh I did that once too. That was good enough. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 12:54:42 PM | "If you cannot choose when and how to die, just how much free will do you have?"
If living or dying had anything to do with free will, who would choose to die?
"That Friday he/she is laid off work. Their whole life is now changed. Free will? Nope."
But, it... is... life.
"Free will is presumed to be a matter of choice, and also a matter of being in control of one's life."
In exercising our free will, you're right, we don't always have complete control. But, we do, still, have some, and that's better than none.
"Everyone wants to believe they are in control."
This might have more to do with self autonomy.
"The "it was Gods will" explanation is used arbitrarily and subjectively when no other explanation is rational."
I agree with this. I see this even when there might be other explanations.
"Free will and Gods will (destiny) oppose. Destiny/fate/it was meant to be, presuppose there is a higher power in control, that it was known before hand, already determined/decided."
As someone who believes in God, I think because we were given free will is the reason God does not interfere. I do not believe in fate. Because choices we make and/or unforseen circumstances (someone else's free will?) can change our 'destiny' on a daily basis.
"And don't even say God is testing someone with a hardship. That is such a primitive idea it hardly bears explanation."
I don't care for a lot of scripture thrown at me and I rarely use scripture to make a point, but there is a scripture that says we are drawn out and enticed by our own desires, so partly for this reason, and my own reasoning, I do not believe that God tests us directly. Although, I do believe he allows it. Excluding pain, suffering and death, what we think is important may be a tad bit different than what God thinks is important. Also, I think we can, and do, grow from 'tests' we face. Without challenges, wouldn't we just kind of stagnate? This is how character is developed, imo.
That's my take - don't think it's what you would call philisophical, but wanted to respond, anyway!
Ravenstarr66 really said it all. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 12:57:37 PM | Years ago when I was about to become a father, I was reading several books on parenting to help give me an idea of what I would be looking forward to from others perspectives...One of the books I read was written by a man James Dobson, who also had a radio show called 'Focus on the Family'...his book I read was called, 'The Strong-Willed Child', and was foccused on how to discipline these types of children without breaking the spirit of the child, and the paticular type of child that was focused on was those who were more stubborn than others or those who had a stong will that continually tested and defied the parental authority that was being given.
Now my point is how can it be said that there is such a thing as a free will, and also a stong will...to me these terms contradict the other...The strong will I can relate to as it can be easily seen that the child has a will that is bent on going its own direction.That is how I perceive a will to even exist, when it is set in a direction and has a purpose to fulfill a certain action. Now if a will is neutral or 'free' how is it even called a will? It is not determined to act in any way at all so therefore it has no will that slants one way or the other.
My observations are, that everyone has a will, but the will is set in a direction which gives a person thier nature. As humans we have a human will that is compatible with our human nature, and this will within us sets our course in this life and our choices are made to appease our human nature and will. So I would say our will is what enslaves us, and is not something that we control. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 1:18:25 PM | There is a difference between will and desire
Will is the force or energy that we use to fulfill our desires.. it is not the desire itself. Take the idea of self-will.. that is self-determination, now which way that will is applied has everything to do with attitude, belief and character... it can be towards positive or negative desire... take the example of Gandhi and Hitler, both highly strong-willed individuals, yet diametrically opposed in desire. This is also a prime example of will applied to self-aggrandisement(and power) and that applied to the betterment of others.. or selflessness. The same will (force) was used, but the focus and desire was different.
It is not will that has moral value.... but desire. Strong-willed, individualistic people change the world...weak-willed people follow them, for good or ill. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 1:32:15 PM | stonestongue said:
You will hear different variables on truth... Everyone has some in them, I think... It is the similarities of our personal truths which will lead to the grand truth(imo)... But none are more important than others... And how do you know it will lead to the "grand truth"? And what is this "the grand truth" anyway? If you know what it is, then it's not to be discovered yet, it's not unknowable (you know it). And if such a thing as "truth" doesn't really exist (as you've said) , then what is this (false? bogus?) "grand truth" anyway? You seem to us the word "truth" in different contexts. almost as if you really don't know what it means.
As for no truth being more important than any other. Of course it is. Not all claims are equal. Not all claims of "truth" are equal. Not all are equally received, believed, accepted, or valid. Yes, some "truths" are more true than some others!  | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 1:40:51 PM |
There is a difference between will and desire
Will is the force or energy that we use to fulfill our desires.. it is not the desire itself. Take the idea of self-will.. that is self-determination, now which way that will is applied has everything to do with attitude, belief and character... it can be towards positive or negative desire... take the example of Gandhi and Hitler, both highly strong-willed individuals, yet diametrically opposed in desire. This is also a prime example of will applied to self-aggrandisement(and power) and that applied to the betterment of others.. or selflessness. The same will (force) was used, but the focus and desire was different.
It is not will that has moral value.... but desire. Strong-willed, individualistic people change the world...weak-willed people follow them, for good or ill.
Ravenstar
I don't see the difference between will and desire, for me they are both part and parcel of the human nature we are born with. As you have shown by example '(Hitler and Ghandi)....we have Hitler who was driven to have his will rule the world, and this will was compatible with his desire....and on the other hand we have Ghandi following his will which was akso driven by his desire to see love manifest to everyone he came in contact with.....
So we have two opposing individuals who are both driven by thier own desire that stems from thier necessity of thier human will needing to be fulfilled.
Neither of these have a free will and desire imo, they are both driven by thier wills and the desires are what makes thier wills focused in a certain direction according to what thier desires are dictating to them.
Lets throw out another term often used.......'against our will'
How can something be against our will if our will is neutral? | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 1:48:33 PM | I don't think free will was something given to us. It certainly isn't taught to us as we are growing up and by the time we become adults we think that exercising our ability to make a choice free of our parents and teachers is free will.
Who can honestly say that they have grown into fully functioning free adults? Not a single shred of programming? No hidden beliefs about the self and the world around them that aren't true? I'd like to meet this human being that is free to make a choice. Choosing to believe something is not free will. Choosing not to believe something is not free will. The very act of belief and disbelief is a form of conditioning and nothing more.
The fact that we assign the idea of free will to choosing to believe something that someone has chosen us to believe is a fallacy. Try to believe something that is free of someone else!
Go on think up anything....
A god? universal energy? blend of ideas to make them our own? this is what free will is? How about to not believe in any god? is this free will? Or is it in opposition of the conditioning that is so blatantly obvious? What about the not so obvious ones? The thousands of beliefs we have about ourselves? Everything we've been told about ourselves by our parents, teachers, scientists, spiritualists, etc... You think we are free to make a choice that doesn't include any of this?
Free will is something we can only hope to attain not some god given right or something we are born with. We are born with a clean slate that everyone graffitis all over until we take back our own power to make our own choice to undo the damage of this defiling of our sense of self and power. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 1:55:01 PM |
Free will is something we can only hope to attain not some god given right or something we are born with. We are born with a clean slate that everyone graffitis all over until we take back our own power to make our own choice to undo the damage of this defiling of our sense of self and power.
Are we born with a free will or are we born with a will that is determined to fulfill our human desires?
When a baby is born, the doctor slaps it on the butt and the baby cries. The very first expression a baby makes is a demonstration of thier human will seeking to be fulfilled, whether it be comfort, food, or whatever needs the child has. The child is expressing thier own will and the cries are a plea to have thier infant will appeased. | |
|
|
| Page 3 of 5
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 |
|
Home
login 
