| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 2:00:11 PM | Where does desire come from?
I don't think we are born with a free will or desire.
A baby gets hungry and it hurts so it cry's someone comes and feeds it. Just like pavlov's dog the baby has just been conditioned on several levels. Where does free will or desire come in? When does it come in? | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 2:08:41 PM |
A baby gets hungry and it hurts so it cry's someone comes and feeds it. Just like pavlov's dog the baby has just been conditioned on several levels. Where does free will or desire come in? When does it come in?
I could answer this question to appease my understandings, but that doesn't mean it will be the same for you or anyone else.....when I think of the human will, I see it as being all part of the human nature that is formed within us, which in scripture is described by King David as his sinful nature....
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
This commentary addresses this issue, but only if it is understood that the human nature is also a sin nature that has attached itself to us in the womb....
Notwithstanding all that Grotius and others have said to the contrary, I believe David to speak here of what is commonly called original sin; the propensity to evil which every man brings into the world with him, and which is the fruitful source whence all transgression proceeds. The word cholalti, which we translate shapen, means more properly, I was brought forth from the womb; and yechemathni rather signifies made me warm, alluding to the whole process of the formation of the fetus in utero, the formative heat which is necessary to develope the parts of all embryo animals; to incubate the ova in the female, after having been impregnated by the male; and to bring the whole into such a state of maturity and perfection as to render it capable of subsisting and growing up by aliment received from without. "As my parts were developed in the womb, the sinful principle diffused itself through the whole, so that body and mind grew up in a state of corruption and moral imperfection."
| |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 3:53:47 PM |
Free will vs. God I don't understand the 'vs' aspect.... to me it is both.. indivisible :) | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/17/2008 5:47:07 PM | -- Destiny/fate/it was meant to be, presuppose there is a higher power in control, that it was known before hand, already determined/decided."
As someone who believes in God, I think because we were given free will is the reason God does not interfere.--
I'm on the same path here, I think that was wonderfull, how you put it. We are really ab-living life, we need experiences. G-d does not need to interfere, G-d already knows the outcome. Its our experience, and that is what makes if wonderfull | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/18/2008 11:02:01 AM | No contest or debate.
God gave us free will. We are free to make choices, take action (or not) based on what our thought process is at the time. God's will is difficult to accept in the face of hardship and tragedy.
Let's look at how the Amber alert came to be. From a horrific circumstance came something for the greater good. Was it divinely inspired ultimately? As a Chrisitian, I choose to believe so. Why you might ask? Because my mental state is better when I have hope. Faith, hope and charity...important concepts in my life.
I have to say too, that I have made some choices in my life that could have had terribly tragic consequences, and I think God kept me and others from detrimental effects of my stupid free will actions. Drinking and driving is one example that most of us, if we are honest with ourselves, would have to admit to. The realization of having been too often blessed with no incident shook me into a reality of making a decision to not to ever do that again. Free will choice.
Faith does not insulate anybody from tragedy/harship/difficulty. It does however, allows us to see beyond ourselves and provide a means to accept and cope with the difficulties we must endure in living life. Beats drugs, alcohol, porn, gambling, etc. as they have proven to be poor coping mechanisms.
Just my opinion...I do believe I'm not alone in it. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/18/2008 11:58:26 AM | ^^^ this is exactly what i'm talking about.
How could you think a drunk person is exercising his or her free will?
How could you think anyone who is coping is using their free will?
God gave you free will? How exactly did he do this? You are told by your own religious leaders that you are born in sin and are doomed to eternal damnation. So he sends his son to correct the mistake he made? Think about this for a second.... maybe a few more... If god is perfect why did he do that? why did he have to send his son to fix his own mistake? isn't he god?
Free will is not getting our own way, far from it. Free will can only be exercised outside of belief systems that colour our choices and the inability to live life without the need to cope. Free will has nothing to do with porn, gambling, etc... those are only coping mechanisms for people who have lost the internal power of choice. Just as believing in any religion is a choice to give up free will in your own admission, because we are sinners...
Is there any hope out there? | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/24/2008 3:19:20 PM | Romanticoptimist;
Since you highlighted it, Im sure you saw the IMO I put there... The grand truth is the truth of what God is (Whatever it is)... I simply said that I believe everyone has a piece of the truth.
I didnt say all claims of truth are equal (if you were to claim water was wet and I disagreed, we would soon be able to prove which is the correct perspective), but all the unprovable ones which relate to the spiritual side of things are (we can argue all day long and your God is still just as unprovable as any other).
I love it when you pick on my posts... You make for an easy adversary. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/24/2008 4:27:38 PM | If you believe in God, then you must believe you have no free will. Using the example of the lady stepping into the path of the speeding car:
God is all knowing. At the creation of the universe, God knew that the lady would someday be born and would eventually step out in front of that car and die. When this lady was born, her destiny was set. God knew how her life would end; He knew it from the beginning of time. If she somehow avoided that fate, well, then, God made a mistake. He knew how she would die - or thought He did - but if she didn't die that way, He was wrong. But, He's God, so He can't make a mistake, He can't be wrong, so she must be hit by that car, and there was nothing she can do to stop it. If there is nothing she can do to stop it: No free will. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/24/2008 5:33:51 PM |
If you believe in God, then you must believe you have no free will.
Not so... I gave an example on msg. 57
If she somehow avoided that fate, well, then, God made a mistake.
That's only if your version of God actually sets peoples fates... Mine doesn't.
But, He's God, so He can't make a mistake, He can't be wrong, so she must be hit by that car, and there was nothing she can do to stop it.
I don't know... I don't think God would be bothered orchestrating our every move just so everything turns out how it's designed to... If I had no free will, God decided what I'm going to have for brekkie tomorrow mornin'... Seems like way too much effort for someone or thing which is supposed to be full of grace.
What would be the worst case scenario for God if this "project" didn't go exactly as planned? God forbid if God were to learn something!
I think the only real plan was to Know Thyself | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/24/2008 9:23:03 PM | If there is a perfect God, He - and I use "He" here, simply because everyone seems to. A real Supreme Being probably would be neither male or female - would know everything; including the eventual outcome of every action He takes. We would not be following any predetermined path nor would God be orchestrating our every move. There wouldn't need to be a plan. It's just that a God would know how it all turns out - He's God, after all. So, because He can not be wrong, the "outcome" would always be, as He believed it would be. If that's the case, there is no free will.
And this:
What would be the worst case scenario for God if this "project" didn't go exactly as planned? God forbid if God were to learn something!
The "project" has to go as plan or He would not be perfect. God shouldn't need to learn something. He should know it all, already. I'm not being sarcastic, here. It's just that, what many people believe, isn't logical to me. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/25/2008 5:33:00 AM |
The "project" has to go as plan or He would not be perfect. God shouldn't need to learn something. He should know it all, already. I'm not being sarcastic, here. It's just that, what many people believe, isn't logical to me.
Yeah, me neither... But somehow I don't think learning a thing or two takes away from perfection... As I like to say, you are perfectly being who you are before and after you learn something new.
Not all versions of God know the future. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/25/2008 7:54:16 AM |
Not all versions of God know the future.
A God would know the future or He wouldn't be a God. Perhaps an extremely powerful and intelligent entity; but not a God.
He could determine every possible path every possible person might take and where it would eventually lead. A person is born. He turns right or left. If he goes left, then he goes right or left again. The branch grows and spreads in a near infinite (but not quite infinite) number of ways, and a God would see them all. If a person instead goes right, the he goes right or left again and again the branches spread and a God see all those branches, too. He would know, using - I don't know, mathematics, perhaps - which choices the person will make. He could do this for every possibility and determine how it all eventually turns out. To not be able to do this would be to put a limit on His abilities. If His abilities have limits, then He is not a true God. So, as I've said, assuming there is a God, He already knows what choices you will make. If that is the case, then you will make those choices as He has seen them and you have no free will. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 2/25/2008 5:11:26 PM | A God would know the future or He wouldn't be a God. Perhaps an extremely powerful and intelligent entity; but not a God.
That depends entirely on how you define a god... A creator god doesn't have to control every aspect it created just because It created them.
If His abilities have limits, then He is not a true God.
Limits? Like not ever being able to witness anything different for a change?
So, as I've said, assuming there is a God, He already knows what choices you will make.
Sorry... That still makes no sense to me... What would be the purpose? I can see maybe "all knowing" up to the choices which aren't made yet because they don't exist, but my version of God doesn't know the future... Maybe It would be able to calculate the most likely probability but ultimately, the choice isn't known until it is chosen.
If that is the case, then you will make those choices as He has seen them and you have no free will.
The God I believe in has no fear of the choices we will make... I believe we are creating the future as aspects of God... My god is ever eternally creating, the future is still to be created and is unknown. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 9:52:34 AM |
It also implies there are no obstacles to my will.
The woman who walked out into the street exercised her free will to do so. Free will doesn't imply there are no obstacles to your will, just that there are no obstacles to your ability to make choose freely.
God gave all people free will, but since He is the creator things will still ultimately go the way He wants them to go. The Bible teaches predestination as well as free will.
Everything that goes wrong in life and can't be explained doesn't mean God willfully caused it to happen. That's why He gave us commandments, and judgments to enforce them. He doesn't want anyone to sin, but people do. It's their free will.
Whatever original sin did that threw off His intended purpose for man, He can see the results of in His omniscience. I believe everything can be broken down into mathematical terms, including human genetics and the outcome of those genetics on an environment in relation to other mathematical genetic traits in relation to time, space, heavenly bodies, etc. etc. etc. Being the One Omnipotent Being and Creator of the universe, God can foresee the results of all of these mathematical variables in an instant, or "see into the future". The changes came about because of man's free will to partake of the "fruit of the tree". It's not magic hocus pocus; it's math on a level humans can't comprehend. So, naturally man questions God because of mans finite ability to comprehend. God answers us in the Bible.
And don't even say God is testing someone with a hardship. That is such a primitive idea it hardly bears explanation.
Unless God tells us why He does something, we don't know why He does it.
Romans
9:15~21
"For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay. . ." | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 11:07:26 AM |
God is all knowing. At the creation of the universe, God knew that the lady would someday be born and would eventually step out in front of that car and die. ... No free will. I think this does follow logically, given the assumption that God is all-knowing. My assumption is that God has chosen to give us free-will, and thus has chosen not to be all-knowing about the future. You are right that the concepts are mutually exclusive. But God could make the choice of how the universe works, and there appears to be a great deal of evidence that free-will exists.
There is no evidence that God is all-knowing. This is simply an assumption. I can't even find scriptural support for the concept. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 12:09:53 PM | Message #11 RDtoo
Mr. Niceguyblue, you really do not understand the Christian Faith. It is not about following a set of rules. Jesus died for us because we could not obey the rules. Contrary to popular belief one does not get to heaven by obeying the 10 Commandments. One gets to heaven by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Um......RDtoo......you seem to be contradicting yourself........what you are actually saying is that the Christian faith IS rulebound......just that the OT Yaweh/Mosaic 10 commandments rules are superceded by the NT Jesus / early christian editorial panel acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour rule. Without following the acceptance of the Jesus as Lord and Saviour rule.....the non compliant are consigned to eternal damnation are they not???? Rules is rules after all!  | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 12:35:24 PM | Infinitee
Interesting argument.
I think you may be looking into it too deeply.
We have free will but that's not to say that we can control everything that happens to us,
I wake up. It's my free will to get out of bed or not.
I can choose to do things or where to be but I can only control a certain amount of the result.
Basically, free will = we make choices
I'd say it's nothing more complicated than that.
Free will Vs god summed up, I'd say.....
"We make choices to guide ourselves and certain others* as best we can to try to achieve our goals. We continually adapt to make new choices depending on both the outcome of previous ones and other unforeseen events**.
We have no destiny, there is no fate, there are no rules on how to live/right/wrong etc except the ones we (humans) make ourselves. There is no supreme reason*** except for any that we, as pattern seeking animals, invent to try to make sense of things.
God doesn't come into it because he doesn't exist."
I truly believe it's as simple as that.
*Certain Others=e.g. our children/pupils/family members
**Unforeseen events=Beyond our control, difficult/virtually impossible to predict like:
Speeding motorists at night, lightening strike, earthquake, an attacker waiting silently for you.
***Supreme reason=Reason to life, existence, the universe etc.. A reason greater than the basic logical ones like.. boy was run over because he ran into a busy road without looking and the car was traveling too fast to stop in time. (but we haven't worked them ALL out yet)
 | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 12:45:29 PM | Yes Chelloveck I guess rules are rules,so if you do not accept Christ as the son of God that came and was crucified for our sins than when you die...you better take some ice water cause Hell gets hot | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 1:32:28 PM | Oh MM ^^^^^^^
you seem to say that with some gleefull anticipation
I guess it depends on which interpretation of hell one gives credence to.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy#Ninth_Circle
In Dante's Divine Comedy the worst sins required the worst punishment.......being frozen in place......so......it is possible that I may need to sit on a combustion stove where I'm headed.
personally, I'll go with Sartre's concept of hell....."L'enfer, c'est les autres" translated it means "hell is other people" | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 1:40:24 PM | So sad Chelloveck the only way I can get you to communicate w/me is in the forums...by the way did you enjoy the chocolates I sent?Hell is cold?New one on me You are right "hell is other ppl"but to be in hell where there is much misery w/miserable ppl will be much worse. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 2:01:57 PM | McMM
Have you ever been to hell or know anyone who has?
Or are you just buying into what you've read in a really old book written by many dubious writers?
Anyway... if you're already dead and it's only your supposed soul that goes there, then why should you feel hot/cold? | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 2:11:46 PM | | God has given us the free will to chose,make choices.As sad as it may be you can't expect or rely on God for everything because where's the free will in that.The lesson is don't take life for granted.Proof of God is life people, existance. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 2:13:47 PM | | Nope can't say I have ever been to hell,and surely wouldn't want to go!So I guess I'm buying into areally old and wise book that still to this day has a massive fan club,and causes so much controversy.As for feeling the flames of hell where the fire is never quenched,I would imagine for the poor unfortunate souls that are there...God makes special provisions(possibly flesh again)because the bible says "their flesh melts with heat"night and day eternally. | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 2:21:06 PM | How does anyone know that they made a free choice to believe anything? Free will and god are opposites. Just look around you, everything you possess. Do you think you made a free choice to buy the things you own? Do you think you made a free will choice to live the life you are living? Do you really think you are free?
How sure are you? What do you think advertisers studied to get the greatest results? why on earth do you think advertisers have spent millions and millions of dollars on advertising the way they do? Because they believe in their products or think their products will change your life that much?
How naive are people?
All one has to do is look at how profitable religion is to realize it has nothing to do with god or the best interest of humans at heart. And if you think religion ever had our interest at heart find a time they did not profit some how off our belief. Its like the internet would you believe a review of a product from someone who is selling the product? I bet you would if you believed you needed the product... | |
|
| Free will vs. God
Posted: 3/16/2008 2:31:19 PM | | Crazy,Jesus is the one who started the God concept we'll call it he didn't ask for anything in return except faith bro,forget about nowadays and how everybody's trying to make a dollar off him remember back in the day.I mean don't you believe in something? | |
|
Home
login 
