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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 12/30/2007 3:00:43 PM | Dunno why Jr Senator keeps qouting the bible to emphasise or reinforce his views, its a book whose contents are dubious at best... a lot of the new testament was written centuries after christ' passing (Mark being one notable exception (approx 60 years)). Dubious views i guess!
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 12/31/2007 4:52:21 PM |
its a book whose contents are dubious at best... a lot of the new testament was written centuries after christ' passing (Mark being one notable exception (approx 60 years)). Dubious views i guess
Really? "Centuries", eh? And you know this is a fact how? I ask because you seem out of step with countless thousands upon thousands of those who work with historical document research. Maybe you could enlighten all with a fact or two to support your claim. Or were you just repeating something you heard? | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 7:04:12 PM | consigliere31:
Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”
There is no exculsivity when it comes to how God respects His creation. All are equal in God's eyes. Seeing the salvation of God means that a person would have to see Christ. What happens when a person sees Christ? They become saved.
Variations of the verse read:
all flesh
all mankind
all people
No here's what is really important.
The word "all" in this case is the greek word "Pas".
This is what Strong's has to say about it.
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3956 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
paß including all the forms of declension
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pas 5:886,795
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pas Adjective
Definition
individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
collectively
some of all types
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
The greek word for all in this case is pas and does not mean the literal sense of "all individuals".
Lots of people witnessed the miracles of Jesus and heard his words yet rejected him - just as peole witnessed the miracles, signs and wonders of God in the OT yet rejected him.
Jesus is our way to salvation. But we are not forced to accept it. Salvation is a result of God's mercy and grace and is not, as you suggest, forced onto us. If we seek and ask for it, it (mercy, grace and salvation) will be given. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 9:54:24 PM |
The greek word for all in this case is pas and does not mean the literal sense of "all individuals".
Lots of people witnessed the miracles of Jesus and heard his words yet rejected him - just as peole witnessed the miracles, signs and wonders of God in the OT yet rejected him.
Jesus is our way to salvation. But we are not forced to accept it. Salvation is a result of God's mercy and grace and is not, as you suggest, forced onto us. If we seek and ask for it, it (mercy, grace and salvation) will be given.
I could accept how the usage of the word 'all' has been explained in your post pertaining to that specific verse.
But in Col.1 I can only accept that 'all' as being the absolute all of everything in existance, because the context of Col. 1 is quite specific on accounting the 'all' as the absolute all of everything in existance.
There are obviously two gatherings of reconciliation by God as specified in Col. 1 There is the futuristic gathering of 'all things' in existance being brought into reconciliation....and there is the reconciliation that is being worked even now in the saints.
Col. 1
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:05:14 PM | Salvation is a result of God's mercy and grace and is not, as you suggest, forced onto us. If we seek and ask for it, it (mercy, grace and salvation) will be given.
Checkin's got a point there - you are actually making all people to accept the rule of God regardless of whether they want it or not - thats ultimately taking free will out of the system. The Angels that rebelled against God did so while they knew God in the heavenlies.
Whats to prevent that from happening with the human race that is "cleansed" by the Lake of Fire.
The argument that all were made sinners so all must be made alive does not hold water. Free will is still involved in the sinning process -
(Gen 4:6) And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:20:29 PM | After taking a closer look at the passage from Luke 3:6
""And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”
I would have to stick with my initial claim that all flesh is the absolute all, and disagree with the strongs commentary.
Luke 3:6 is a quote from Isaiah 40, and the context of Isaiah 40 tells me that it is the absolute all being mentioned here as seeing the salvation of God.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“ Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make straight in the desert[a]
A highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted
And every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight
And the rough places smooth;
5 The glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
If the 'all' usage in Isaiah 40 is not to be rendered as the absolute all, then neither should we agree that every valley shall be exalted and every mountain brought low...These are figurative definitions of what stands in the way of a straight path to God Glory...and if the majority of the creation does not see God's salvation then obviously it is because the mountains and valleys have not been made straight. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:30:10 PM | Checkin's got a point there - you are actually making all people to accept the rule of God regardless of whether they want it or not - thats ultimately taking free will out of the system. The Angels that rebelled against God did so while they knew God in the heavenlies.
Whats to prevent that from happening with the human race that is "cleansed" by the Lake of Fire.
The argument that all were made sinners so all must be made alive does not hold water. Free will is still involved in the sinning process -
lets not over-rate 'free-will'. I for one do not consider the scriptures as stating anything regards to 'free will' There is the human will that follows after the human nature that is hostile towards God. And there is God's will that is carried out after the new nature is implanted by the birth of the Spirit.
Just curious nevercannezzar...have you ever been revealed the power of God and shown by God the way that His authority in Christ, subdues and puts to death the human will and nature? God is not interested in reforming our human nature to be inclined to follow Him, He is interested in putting that human will and nature to death. If the human nature is put to death, then so is the human will and of course any aspect of free will then becomes moot.
Free will is still involved in the sinning process??? I fully disagree, because that would mean that every single human, including infants, mentally challenged, peoples who have been raised on different religious upbringings etc....are all sinners because they chose to be. If a baby dies at 1 day old, they obviously died because they have a sin nature that is inclined towards death..They didn't chose to have this nature, nor had any say whatsoever in the short life they lived...they never knew anything about repentance, salvation etc......yet they still were cursed with the death plague that all men are cursed with....partaking in the sinful nature of the first Adam has nothing to do with our indiividual sin causing this. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:33:40 PM | | That's a self-defeating argument. If God wishes to abolish free will, why not just DO it? It sounds as if you'e suggesting we must CHOOSE to give up free will, which is...uh...odd. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:45:30 PM |
That's a self-defeating argument. If God wishes to abolish free will, why not just DO it? It sounds as if you'e suggesting we must CHOOSE to give up free will, which is...uh...odd.
No frogO Oeyes, I am denyying any real existance of a free will in the first place. To me the term makes as much sense as the popular movie title...True Lies. A will is a set and determined direction of something. When a person leaves a last will and testament. they are giving directions of what they want to happen...What I am saying is that there is only God's will that is ruled by God's nature, and there is a human will that is ruled by human nature. I am not talking about choosing what color to paint the house. I am talking about being inclined to fiollow after the nature that possesses us. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 11:18:40 PM | Consig see post 39 :-
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts8920914.aspx
While I agree that the human nature tends towards sin - a baby that dies does die because of Adam's sin. But because that baby has not sinned - it is not subject to the sting of death which is sin. All were meant to die - there was never eternal life promised to the flesh. Death is natural, what is not natural is sin - which prevents the rebirth into a being with a spiritual body.
(1 Cor 15:54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Adam did not have a spiritual body it was flesh :-
(1 Cor 15:45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Sin prevents the natural translation (through death) into a spiritual body. Christ was without sin, thats why death could not work on Him - no sting in His death. Thats why he is the first born in a spiritual body.
(1 Cor 15:44 KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The "sowing" of the natural body is the death of that natural body - sin prevents the raising into a spiritual body. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 11:27:00 PM |
While I agree that the human nature tends towards sin - a baby that dies does die because of Adam's sin. But because that baby has not sinned - it is not subject to the sting of death which is sin.
I would have to disagree, and so would Adam Clarke..
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me
A genuine penitent will hide nothing of his state; he sees and bewails, not only the acts of sin which he has committed, but the disposition that led to those acts. He deplores, not only the transgression, but the carnal mind, which is enmity against God. The light that shines into his soul shows him the very source whence transgression proceeds; he sees his fallen nature, as well as his sinful life; he asks pardon for his transgressions, and he asks washing and cleansing for his inward defilement. Notwithstanding all that Grotius and others have said to the contrary, I believe David to speak here of what is commonly called original sin; the propensity to evil which every man brings into the world with him, and which is the fruitful source whence all transgression proceeds. The word cholalti, which we translate shapen, means more properly, I was brought forth from the womb; and yechemathni rather signifies made me warm, alluding to the whole process of the formation of the fetus in utero, the formative heat which is necessary to develope the parts of all embryo animals; to incubate the ova in the female, after having been impregnated by the male; and to bring the whole into such a state of maturity and perfection as to render it capable of subsisting and growing up by aliment received from without. "As my parts were developed in the womb, the sinful principle diffused itself through the whole, so that body and mind grew up in a state of corruption and moral imperfection."
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 11:39:59 PM | Ya don't have to quote Clark at me Consig  . While I have a lot of respect for his commentaries - He does follow along with the religious ideas of the day. If you read what I posted along with the quoted scriptures its make perfect sense.
As for the Psalms quote it says surely? Its a comment based on a life of sin - not necessarily a point of truth.. More of a rhetorical question I think.
The sting of death is sin - a baby has not sinned - Scripture states the soul that sins (active) will die..
(Ezek 18:4 KJV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
How has a baby at birth who dies sinned??
Did you ever read of Jesus upbraiding chidren??
(Mat 19:14 KJV) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 11:52:04 PM |
How has a baby at birth who dies sinned??
The baby has sinned not literally in action themselves, but instead is born into a human nature that is inclined to sin. The baby is a sinner and shares in the Adamic curse of death because they have a sin principle at work within, that all of humanity shares. This is what Christ came to destroy. God is not as concerned about the fruit of sin(mans actions) as He is concerned about the root of sin. (the cause of man's actions) If Christ can lay the axe to the root of sin then that solves the sin problem completely...but if it is only the fruit of sin that is dealt with, then nothing really gets accomplished as sin will just continue to be produced as the fruit.
Sin is more than just an action of breaking a law, it is a network of darkness, powers and spiritual heirachies that are at enmity against God, it is the very nature that all men are born with and it is the spiritual powers that rule this present world...
I quoted Clarke because I noticed you quoted him in another thread...just trying to establish some common ground in scholarship was all I was doing.... | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/1/2008 11:59:26 PM | And you all are aware alot of christians are burning in hell? Religion in itself is a sham! I refuse to pay money to people who do not help people. How many golden coffers have been filled for people seeking salvation? If you all want to label me a satanist you're strung up on yourself and will burn in hell for your opinion. I am first and foremost at terms with my own religon. I believe in equality for all. Face it you're affraid of undeniable. You're going to die and only then will you meet what life you have lived. If you're a good person then show it. Don't think just cause you go to church you're going to heaven. How many blaspemous priests have raked up a tycoon of money? Truth is nevencaneezer, you're never a sinner till you lust after the power sin brings. So a newborn baby wouldn't experience such burdens.
What's funny and absolute humorous is that you think there's only one God. But i'll save that for later. No wait I'll go and say it.
Did you know that the Greeks had their own gods and miracles happened to them cause they believed in them? Honestly when God dies out some yahoo will invent a new god for everyone to believe in. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:05:54 AM | What's funny and absolute humorous is that you think there's only one God. But i'll save that for later. No wait I'll go and say it.
That might fit in the Trinity thread - go ahead..
Truth is nevencaneezer, you're never a sinner till you lust after the power sin brings. So a newborn baby wouldn't experience such burdens.
I think I addressed the baby issue from scripture in a far more eloquent way.
And what kind of power does sin bring?? | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:23:33 AM | Sin brings power of knowledge. To question God's authority is unethical i guess. However if mankind could reason with eachother they'd be powerfuller than God.
However it gives you hope in being a good person so just stay with what makes you happy.
I love Jesus for the person he was not cause i'm supposed to. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:29:49 AM |
I think I addressed the baby issue from scripture in a far more eloquent way.
And what kind of power does sin bring??
You do realize that exempting babies from being a part of the all have sinned and falling short of the glory of God, is controversial. If any man( belonging to the human race) is exempt from being classified as a sinner before God, then they are exempt also from coming to the Father through Christ. When Christ said no man comes to the Father but by Me, he wasn't strictly classifying those fully mature human beings and excluding those who were unqualified as adults of sound mind. Christ was speaking of the human race as a whole coming to the Father through Him....every man, woman and child, past, present and future.
I'm not saying that baies who die don't go to be with God, but I am saying they still must be reconciled through Christ's work, even though they have never actually committed a sin that we can accuse them of..They are not made into the new creation that is eternal in nature without being rconciled first through Christ, its impossible both scripturally and logically speaking. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:47:46 AM | You do realize that exempting babies from being a part of the all have sinned and falling short of the glory of God, is controversial. If any man( belonging to the human race) is exempt from being classified as a sinner before God
I realise according to conventional theology what I'm saying is controversial. But one would need to assert from scripture how a baby has fallen short of the glory of God when it has not sinned.
Agreed they are still reconciled to God by Christ as was intended from the begining..Slain from the foundation of the world................
It's late - I'll have at 'er tomorrow - don't go away - don't touch that mouse.. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/2/2008 1:30:30 AM | | nevercanezzer........sin is thu the line of Adam, therefor the baby is a creation of man & woman....Its not perfect already....... That is why Jesus had to be Begotten of a woman not touched by a man. But since man is judged upon there deeds the child is favored in Gods eyes & will not find a punishment of death ~Jr_Senator~ | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/2/2008 1:36:41 AM | AMY WOW... you are given the power to make a simple choice, but in that choice you are not able to change what is written, if you dont care for the truth ignore it, but it still doesnt change... Learn to understand it & it will allow you to get closer to God.
~Jr_Senaotr~ Thinking everyone is peachie is a dream, not Gods message, In fact just being good is not enough to see the Promise....:) | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/2/2008 2:44:54 AM | 1 Peter 4
6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
This is the power of the gospel at work in those who have died, the gospel accomplishes two things....it brings all men under judgment through Christ in regards to thier flesh life and the gospel submits them under the Father's commandment to life in the spirit.
And this also lines up with what Christ said..
John 12
46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
Think about this passage for a minute....Christ came to save the world, even those who heard His words and did not keep them...But these very words Christ spoke would condemn these people...In order for the word that Christ spoke to condemn these people, the truth Christ spoke in His words would have to prove these people in error and that the words He spoke were indeed true...
Now this is the word that He spoke that must prove them in error...
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
Now when these people hear these words and are condemned by them ,will they believe that these words are true or not?? And if the unavoidable conclusion is that in order to be condemend they must be proven wrong, then obviously they will believe these word's are indeed true when placed into this judgment scenario....and what is the result when Christ's words are believed??? That they should not stay in darkness and live to God according to the spirit..The word of God has the power to resurrect the dead to life.
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/2/2008 7:49:39 AM |
AMY WOW... you are given the power to make a simple choice, but in that choice you are not able to change what is written, if you dont care for the truth ignore it, but it still doesnt change... Learn to understand it & it will allow you to get closer to God.
~Jr_Senaotr~ Thinking everyone is peachie is a dream, not Gods message, In fact just being good is not enough to see the Promise....:) Thank you for your "advice". I have no problems with God's message, nor am I trying to change it. I have problems with those who choose to make themselves self appointed interpreters of that message.
But, as mentioned, I also believe in tolerance and not hatred between people of faith.
This is my simple choice. Your version will not get us closer to God. You are the one who misunderstands God, and turns Him into an instrument of hatred and divisiveness.
I thank you for honoring my wishes and adding me to your list of "foolish" people. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 1/2/2008 8:22:44 AM | ^^^^^^^this is for posts by NeverCanezzer and Consigliere31, 588-596 minus 92 and 94 by lberserkerl.
Just thought i'd throw in this for you'ns, lol.
1John 5:16-20, (especially vs. 17)~
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
I wonder if the babies would fall into this category. That's all i wanted to say, now i'll move along,  | |
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