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| Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 10:38:33 AM | So, let me get this straight:
If you accept Jesus you get to go to heaven, if you don't you go to hell?
How is that any different from someone putting a knife to your throat and telling you to love them or they will kill you and then say it's your choice?
While the Holocaust and the killing fields of Cambodia make humans recoil in horror. Christians have no problem with billions upon billions of people suffering a worse fate for all of eternity. Then say this is the act of a loving God and blame the people who are suffering.
If we are mere humans, shouldn't God's morality and laws be superior to ours? According to the Principles of International Law Recognized in the Charter of the Nuremburg Tribunal and In the Judgement of the Trubunal, 1950:
"The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible Government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law."
Not only does the Christian God violate international law, he has committed crimes against humanity. | |
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| Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 10:58:42 AM |
If you accept Jesus you get to go to heaven, if you don't you go to hell?
That's an over simplified version Christianity, but yes.
How is that any different from someone putting a knife to your throat and telling you to love them or they will kill you and then say it's your choice?
Well it depends on who you ask.
Some Christians would agree with that, but of course they don't write the rules, they just follow them. Some see it as an obvious choice, some subscribe to pascal's wager and others just jump on the band-wagon.
Others say there is no choice in the matter...those that are going to heaven have already been put on the VIP list...again though...they didn't write the rules, they just follow them.
"The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible Government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law."
Aha!!! Seperation of church and state. Only when a government is formed under a theocracy can they be held accountable in those laws...In short...the Bible supercedes the laws according to Christianity.
Think that's silly. Start looking into Family Values Voter's Guide. You can see where conservative Republican's and conservative Christians are starting to become one in the same.
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| Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 2:58:50 PM | | Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 104 | |
| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 4:22:15 PM | First off, my questions still stand for littlelady1961 if she wishes to still participate with us.
But I will address And Can It Be's replies as well.
Here is one them: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace which he has freely given us in the One he loves" (Ephesians 1:4-7 NIV).
Once again, as in the last thread that we participated in, you are quoting Paul and his efforts to prosteltyze pagans and gentiles. He is assuring them that they have been christians since the beginning of time, they just don't realize it. Besides, the catholics have strict rules as to who can be a saint, the protestants think anyone can be one, and eastern orthodox thinks it's anyone in heaven, so which of you christians is right??
From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint
For Catholics:
The Catholic Church teaches that it does not, in fact, make anyone a saint. Rather, it recognizes a saint. In the Roman Catholic church, the title of Saint - with a capital 'S' - refers to a person who has been formally canonized (officially recognized) by the Church.-----Formal canonization is a lengthy process often taking many years, even centuries. The 1st step in this process is the investigation of that saint's life done by an expert. After this, the report on the candidate is given to the bishop of the area and more studying is done. Then it is sent to the Congregation for the Causes of Saints in Rome. If they approve it, then the person may be beatified and given title of "Blessed." At a minimum of three important miracles are required to be formaly declared a saint.
Protestants:
In many Protestant churches, the word is used more generally to refer to anyone who is a Christian. This is similar in usage to Paul of Tarsus's numerous references in the New Testament of the Bible. In this sense, anyone who is within the Body of Christ (a professing Christian) is a 'saint' because of their relationship with Jesus. Because of this, many Protestants consider prayers to the saints to be idolatry or even necromancy.
Because you're using a protestant version, it will reflect the protestant viewpoint, if you use a catholic bible, there is no mention of saints in those passages:
From here:
http://www.catholic.org/phpframedirect/out.php?url=http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/index.htm
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens,
4 as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love
5 he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will,
6 for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved.
7 In him we have redemption by his blood, the forgiveness of transgressions, in accord with the riches of his grace
8 that he lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight,
So are the catholic christains right, or the protestants???? If the catholics are right, then littlelady1961 had better get cracking to prove herself a saint, set out in the catholic guidelines. If she is a protestant saint, well... big deal, EVERYONE and their cousin is one too, so what ??? Which one of you christians is right ????
As far as God creating a stone that is too heavy for Him to lift, that is a nonsense question. It has no answer.
It is not a nonesense question, it's a paradoxical one. Many christians claim that god can do anything and is infallible. Yet if that is so, he should be able to do both these things. I myself can answer this question because I am fallible, I can either not create the stone, or I can, but cannot lift it. If god is omnipotent, he should be able to both, but it is impossible that he can, because of the paradox presented. Therefore how can anyone claim that god, if there is one, can do anything???
God can do anything that He purposes to do. No one can stay His hand or hinder His purpose. I believe God's Will will be accomplished.
Are you sure about that ? Forget about lifting heavy stones, what if you ride in an iron chariot? :
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (Judges 1:19)
Your question about people doing "good works" all their lives is based on a false premise, and that is that they are good. If they are truly good and have no sin, they will not be condemned to hell. God does not damn the innocent.
How do we judge people if not by their words and actions?? Do you mean to tell me, that one can have nothing but love in their heart, do good deeds and will still make it into heaven even if they have never been exposed to christianity? Didn't jesus claim:
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 (NIV)
The problem is that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" as it says in Romans 3 in my opinion. They are not condemned for not knowing about Jesus of whom they have never heard . They are condemned for rejecting the Father who is proclaimed throughout creation as it says in Romans 1 and 2.
Here is where SteveHD's arguement about freewill hits the nail right on the head. It doesn't matter whether you are baptized or not, if you are predestined for hell, that is it, pointe finale. Freewill is not really given to us if we are all predestined, freewill implies that WE choose our destiny, and that any outcomes stem from our actions, not what some deity has all ready in store for us. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 4:39:44 PM | This should be the answer to your question
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condem the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemed; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
That's from
John 3: 16-18
You have to believe in Jesus to get to Heaven | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 106 | |
| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 4:44:57 PM | Hello Whitegirl420,
Your quote indicates that you do have to be christian to get in heaven.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
That means that one has to believe in jesus christ (a christian) to have everlasting life, ie go to heaven. My statement was if somebody never heard of jesus before, but was still a good guy/gal, they wouldn't get into heaven.
Thanks for the help.
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 4:46:32 PM | Ridiculous! The concept of an afterlife is present in *almost* every tradition practiced in present day that could be called religious in nature.
For a Prophet to have come in so many forms, in different times and places but with the SAME basic message for those who listen, indicates that there is a commonality between the philosophies they espoused, even if later on the believers have warped the words to the point of exclusivity.
And, to me, the idea that one can love God and strive to live as He would have them live, for that person to be left out in the cold because of not saying one little line or thinking a certain way about one specific cat, smacks of fundamentalist dogma that negates the entire teaching of love and forgiveness that makes the practice exist in the first place. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 108 | |
| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 4:49:40 PM | And, to me, the idea that one can love God and strive to live as He would have them live, for that person to be left out in the cold because of not saying one little line or thinking a certain way about one specific cat, smacks of fundamentalist dogma that negates the entire teaching of love and forgiveness that makes the practice exist in the first place.
Yet every version of the bible states the same thing, no heaven unless you believe in jesus. I hope you're not taking issue with me, I think it's ludicrous to be excluded from heaven if you've never had been taught about a jesus and his teachings, simply unfair and exclusionary. And we are not talking about saying a little line or thinking a certain way, that is exagerating the premise. We are talking about the basic tenet of christian faith, no jesus, no heaven.
Here's another thought, if jesus was not around to spread his word before he was born, then every human, Old Testament character and all, would not go to heaven as jesus was not around to offer his teachings. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 6:18:12 PM | In reply to mak68:
But the tenet is to pledge to live in a way according to Jesus' teachings, right? Not just the lip service words of speaking acceptance of Jesus?
The crux of my issue is that I'm a practitioner of a faith that was established in 1844, nowhere near the venerable 2 millenia of the time of Christ. Our core beliefs are identical to those of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and many common views show up in Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, even things like Santeria and Yoruba practices.
I can't help but feel, then, that Jesus was really speaking of what he represented when he spoke of himself. That same representation shows up throughout (recorded) human history in the shape of the various prophets who inspired the people around them.
As you said, even from a directly Christian standpoint, the idea that *ONLY* Jesus can bring salvation means that everyone who died in the BC's were denied that grace, which would be pretty far out there. I think we agree on some things, but just have our differing perspectives on others. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/3/2007 6:58:56 PM | According to the Tao Te Ching (Taoists)
Heaven and Earth are not Humane, and there is no statement as to them going to heaven... so they arn't going.
The Buddhists don't arn't going to heaven unless they get life right and then they get to join with the universe becoming everything and nothing.
The Muslims are going, that is very clear from their books, if they do things right. If they are really good for the cause they get perks like a lot of virgin wives if they serve the cause, like a diamond teal triple platinum Amway executive would get if he rose high enough in the chain of command.
The Christians are of course going if they are true Christians unless they are roman catholic in which case they just have to be absolved and then they can go too even if they wern't very good at being Christan.
Not all the Jehovas are going... only 144,000 of them will. The rest shall inherit the earth while everyone else shall be stricken from it.
The Pastafarians are going to heaven where they have it even better than the Muslims because there are stripper factories and beer volcanoes in pastafarian heaven.
There are even the antics of the old gods... If you're Norse and a valiant warrior you get to go to heaven, Valhalla where you do battle everyday and feast every night, if you are not a warrior you go to a place that sucks. The Egyptians who follow the old gods go to heaven too... the underworld is all it's call... those that were bad get eaten by some beast belonging to Osiris.
Hope this has clarified the issue although there are still some importaint ones missing I'm sure. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/4/2007 3:02:05 AM | Pfft. Nothing more than Pavlovian Conditioning. A pity so many people can't see that they have essentially reduced themselves to little more than drooling dogs.
I mean, the dogs at least got the scent of meat and a taste of meat powder. Humans are told of this happy place, and they just fall in line. Which, honestly, do you think an all-loving God would prefer: someone who blindly obeys an imperfect book written by imperfect and often power-hungry tyrants, or a person who tried to help other people, just for the sake of helping?
To the Etherealist, Heaven is what you make it. There is no eternal bliss, because bliss without suffering is expressionless and empty. You become what you were meant to become... be it angel or monster. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/4/2007 4:51:13 AM | "Let us assume that your daughter does not turn to christ, and is condemned to hell when she passes. How would you feel knowing your daughter is suffering in eternal damnation, while you are in heaven? Please answer from your own perspective.
Do you think it's right that a person who has done good works all their life, yet has never heard of or been exposed to christianity, jesus, or god should be damned to hell?
One other question, do you believe that god is omnipotent? Meaning that he can do anything? If yes, please answer the following:
Can god create a stone so heavy that he himself could not lift it? "
Firstly...it would make me very sad if none of my children were not in heaven..as it makes me sad many others will not be either...but I trust my God is perfect...and I am not here to question what He ordains.
Works will not get anyone in heaven...you miss the point...and need to read the scriptures.
Yes..I KNOW my God is omnipotent...and I have no need to test my creator...I wouldnt be foolish enough to believe I know more than my creator.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned , but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotton Son of God.
And this is the comdenation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, becuase their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.But he who does the truth comes to the light,that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
(John 3v18-21) | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/4/2007 5:13:32 AM | | You do know there is absolutely NO mention of Hell in the Old Testament. So, I would suppose that when Jesus came to keep humanity out of hell, he had to invent it in the first place. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/4/2007 6:10:40 AM | I'm going to go off of a simple idea that Christians follow the teachings of J.C.
I can't help but feel, then, that Jesus was really speaking of what he represented when he spoke of himself.
Outside of the Matt, Mark, Luke, and John do we have any other recordings of Christ?
Other books, other scripture, archeological finds...something...anything...etc. I'm not questioning whether or not the man lived...but the entire New Testament is built around the teachings of Christ, yet there is very little in the way of him speaking (Red Text), especially considering the man/God had a ministry for 3 years.
If these recordings are out there...why don't we here more about them?
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condem the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemed; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Again...we have a quote from John...not J.C.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Okay...I'll bite...
Here we have one more recording of Christ. It comes to us in the form of a prophetic dream from a man imprisoned on an island. I'm not even going to go into the symbolism and the political climate of the time...let's just assume J.C. popped into this guys head and Rev is a recording of Christ.
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Aha!!! a direct quote from Christ...hurrah...I'm sure people haggle over this but lets focus on the bold part...no matter how we beat or bang it....The Bible says that John says that Jesus said people need to go to him.
Works will not get anyone in heaven...you miss the point...and need to read the scriptures.
That's one of the problems with the religion of Christianity. Can a Christian look at a person's actions and decide if they we're to do those same actions they would be pleasing to the Lord.
Alan the Atheist volunteers his time and the nearby nursing home. He's done this ever since his mother first took residence there. Alan's mother has since passed on, but Alan has gotten to know folks at the home and bringing comfort to them in their twilight years has brought him much joy and has also brought joy to those he cares for. Alan wants to see a world where the young take care of the old so Alan joyfully becomes the change he wants to see in the world. Unfortunately for Alan, his soul will rot in hell, where he will be sodomized with the fiery barbed phalluses of demons for all eternity.
Charlie the Christian also volunteers at the home because his church supports it. Most days are challenging and he begs the Lord for strength to carry on. He feels that some of the elderly that he's working with will not go to heaven because they have not accepted Christ. Charlie on the other hand has accepted Christ and makes sure everyone knows it, because it's his job to spread the Gospel. He tries to teach them Christ, but all they want to do is rest after a long life of sin. During Charlie's breaks, he reads scripture. Every day is a trial at the old folks home, but Charlie only needs to remind himself that he's doing it for the Lord and that makes his suffering a little more bearable. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/4/2007 9:36:44 AM | Throwing in my 2 cents....I believe personally that God will judge us individually based on our own personal knowledge of Him. This means that we each will have our own level of personal responsibility. Someone who was perhaps raised in a completely non-Christian environment where they were never even introduced to the idea of God and have no real knowledge of Him...well God isn't going to send him straight into hell just because He can. It says in the Bible “For of those to whom much is given, much is required” (Luke 12:48) I have often felt that could also refer to someone's personal knowledge about God and what they do with that knowledge. Personally , I think this means that if you have the ability to know that God exists and you still reject Him, then that one is going to be on YOU. On the other hand, you can't be judged on information you didn't have. If I walk into a Physics class and take the final exam when I never was even enrolled in the class one day, can I really fail it? I was never even a student in the class!
I think the biggest surprise of all may actually be amongst Christian denominations. Somehow I guess many have decided there will be different subdivisions in heaven. I'm fairly convinced a lot of Protestants are sure they won't see a Catholic in heaven and vice versa. I think one day there may be a shock when we find out just who made it in and who didn't! | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/4/2007 9:57:23 AM | From what I have come to understand, it is not a persons good works that get them into Heaven, but what is in that person's heart.
" Alan has gotten to know folks at the home and bringing comfort to them in their twilight years has brought him much joy ........." It's the "has brought him much joy " part that is the problem in God's book................ Alan is not doing God's work - he is doing it for his own selfish reasons and pleasure.
Now consider this:
"Every day is a trial at the old folks home, but Charlie only needs to remind himself that he's doing it for the Lord and that makes his suffering a little more bearable. "
It's the "he's doing it for the Lord" that will be judged by God. This mans works are in the Lord's name and come from his heart, and this is what the Lord has asked of us.
Seems a bit "controlling" but God's Rules are really not that difficult to follow and obey, especially if you have good morals and really do want to live a good clean life and have left the old not-so-good one far behind. He has asked us to come thru His son Jesus to Him as a simple way that His desires and "rules" are acknowledged and accepted........ like what we as parents expect of our children when we give them instructions and expect obedience. God is our Father and Creator, we have been given all the instructions to anything and everything we need to know about ANYTHING in the Bible - it is our Life Manual. Here we find what behaviours are expected of us, how to raise our children so that they can be all that they can be, how to be a friend, sibling, caregiver, husband/wife, Mother/Father, Grandparent, son/daughter, how to work diligently and be profitable, how to grow in our Faith, how to take care of ourselves - inside and out............. you name it - it's all in there.
We have been given the right of Free Will - and THAT is where we get ourselves into trouble as sinners. Right now we are living in a world that was handed over to Satan as a result of Adam and Eve's choices - such is the result of succumbing to temptation.  God could have right then and there put an end to all Evil for good, but instead He let it go on and is letting it reign for a little while longer. The time is drawing nearer each and every day to The Rapture - THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!  , but for now the choices that we make as we navigate through the Enemies deadly battlegrounds will be the deciding factors of what our own fates will be in the eyes of the Lord. We make the ultimate choice as to whether to obey, or not. For some of us, it took a very devastating fall as a result of bad choices that were made to straighten up and go to the Lord in our weakened, broken state. To open your heart and let Him in and to have a brand new, cleansed life is an amazing, wonderful gift. Charlie the Christian knew the gift of Salvation, and is doing what God has asked of us.................. simple! | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/4/2007 10:49:33 AM |
It's the "has brought him much joy " part that is the problem in God's book................ Alan is not doing God's work - he is doing it for his own selfish reasons and pleasure.
So according to your belief, Alan the Atheist who brings comfort to the elderly is no better in God's eyes than a child molesting priest or an adultering minister?
Seems a bit "controlling" but God's Rules are really not that difficult to follow and obey, especially if you have good morals and really do want to live a good clean life and have left the old not-so-good one far behind.
I'm sorry, but you've failed to explain good morals. All you've done here is say that anyone who isn't living a "good" life obviously isn't loving God enough. That's a never ending cycle of trial and failure. I've met many non-Christians with good morals and living a loving, caring, clean life.
Your only stance is that...if it's not done in the name of Christianity...then it's wrong.
The time is drawing nearer each and every day to The Rapture - THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!
Doom speakers have been saying the end of the world is coming for the past 5000 years. A big rock could fall from the sky today...or it may be another 5000 years. It wouldn't mean anything other than...the end is here. In short...we'll get there when we get there.
Too much heaven on their minds -
Charlie the Christian knew the gift of Salvation, and is doing what God has asked of us.................. simple!
Hardly...Charlie is doing what Christianity has told him to do, and Christianity is basing their morals according to the interpretations of the Bible as approved by the church, and the Bible's only claim to divinity is that, within it's contents, it makes the claim to be divine. In addition to this, Christianity's claim to follow the teachings of Christ is a bit of an overstatement since the only teachings of Christ they follow are those that were permitted by the church to be included in the Bible
(see Third -Council of Carthage 397AD?). The only understanding of God that Christians have is what comes from the Bible, and the only place that we find that God inspired the Bible is in...surprise...in the Bible, and what is expected of Christians is based off of what is interpreted by those with the authority given to them...the church.
I'm sure there's a flaw in the logic above so please point is out as to do away with my ignorance, but I do have another question.
Can a person be Christian without the Bible?
Charlie the Christian also volunteers at the home because his church supports it
Who do you want taking care of you?...
someone who enjoys it
or
someone who begs for the strength to get through the day
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 120 | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/4/2007 2:20:04 PM | AWESOME reply there SteveHD! Got me thinkin'...... so....... here goes..........
"So according to your belief, Alan the Atheist who brings comfort to the elderly is no better in God's eyes than a child molesting priest or an adultering minister?"
In God's eyes, a sin is a sin is a sin. It is not the sinner that God despises, it's the sin itself. He LOVES ALL of us the same regardless. It is what we choose to do with the knowledge that we have of what God the Father expects of us to do that will save us or not. All He asks of us is to SINCERELY and WHOLLY let His son Jesus into our hearts.......... and He takes it from there.
"I'm sorry, but you've failed to explain good morals." Well, for starters we are given the Ten Commandments to follow. Just do it! They are Gods Word and given to us for a reason.
As for your own personal morals - you know that little voice that tells you not to do something just as you about to do it? (ie: reaching in the cookie jar before dinnertime?!?!) Well...... that little voice is there for a reason too............ . I'll let you figure that one out for yourself ;).....
" Your only stance is that...if it's not done in the name of Christianity...then it's wrong." Not everything we do has to be done just for the Lord's will, but just use your common sense to figure out what those might be in your personal world.  Just be aware of what you are doing and why is the key ;)
" ............ those that were permitted by the church to be included in the Bible.."
" Charlie is doing what Christianity has told him to do" I disagree there - it's not "Christianity" that is leading him, but God himself perhaps. When the Lord gives you a calling - you feel it...... Charlie may be doing what he has been called to do, and sometimes it is not a bed of roses! I know from my own personal life that if God called upon me to care for someone who really hurt me badly in my life, I would have a very difficult time obeying........... and it would be something for me and God to work out, and I might just have to do it, but pray each and every moment to have that strengtyh to do what was asked of me. Just like cleaning a really dirty house that belongs to someone else - you know you HAVE to - but to get through it, a bit of prayer and a whole lot of Faith is needed to survive it! Know what I am trying to get at here? Think also of Abraham when God told him to sacrifice his son.............
"............those that were permitted by the church to be included in the Bible.." OK - this is a tougher one because I THINK you are getting into the origins of Churches, and if you study a bit more of Catholicism, you will find it has it's origins in Baal worship - and that is NOT of God. Do some surfing on this - pretty fascinating stuff!
There are many versions of the Bible written, but THE one that is 100$ true is the King James Version. It took 1600 years to write it, 66 books - all written by people that God himself gave these unique " callings" to. NOBODY else could have done it! It's quite a history! There has never been, nor ever will be a Book like this, and one that has been followed for over 2000 years, despite people trying to get rid of it, burn it, ban it, ignore it, destroy it, prove it a fraud, turture and kill other people over it, or any other such ridiculous efforts to obliterate something that will NEVER be destroyed by humans.
" Can a person be Christian without the Bible?" Hmmmmmmmm - in my mind I ask - how can a TRUE Christian NOT have the Bible as part of his/her life? It just is a big part in the whole picture, and a Life Manual, a History book, a Guide, a Resourse, an Affirmation, and also a means to "connect" with other Christians - even when you are alone! It's so much more to each of us in our own personal ways as we walk on our Journeys.......... GOOD QUESTION!
And last but not least for SteveHD's questions..........  .......
" "Charlie the Christian also volunteers at the home because his church supports it"
Who do you want taking care of you?...
someone who enjoys it
or
someone who begs for the strength to get through the day"
Methinks that Charlie might have several reasons to be doing what he is doing - perhaps he enjoys it? Perhaps it's a labour of love? We would have to ask Charlie himself. I can only answer from my own experience of being a Mom though - sometimes I thoroughly enjoy it - and sometimes I have to beg for strength.......... because....... I am ONLY human!!
Next?????????????????????????
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/4/2007 11:51:18 PM | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UbqZ_oN5do
I'd say everyone is in for a surprise when they get there...
 "The French...erm are you here...I'f you'd just like to come down here with the Germans I'm sure you'll have a lot to talk about...Ok Athiests, if you'd come over here please...you must be feeling a right bunch of nitwits...
And finally Christians....Christians? Ah yes I'm sorry, I'm afraid the Jews were right...If you could come down here that would be really kind thank you..."
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 123 | |
| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/6/2007 9:06:15 PM | Hello littlelady1961, thanks for answering.
"Let us assume that your daughter does not turn to christ, and is condemned to hell when she passes. How would you feel knowing your daughter is suffering in eternal damnation, while you are in heaven? Please answer from your own perspective. Firstly...it would make me very sad if none of my children were not in heaven..as it makes me sad many others will not be either...but I trust my God is perfect...and I am not here to question what He ordains.
Well, if as jesus claims, that heaven is bliss, and a paradise, how can you have such sadness in a place such as this? On the other hand, how could you be eternaly happy knowing that your daughter is in hell?
Paradoxes abound !
Do you think it's right that a person who has done good works all their life, yet has never heard of or been exposed to christianity, jesus, or god should be damned to hell? Works will not get anyone in heaven...you miss the point...and need to read the scriptures.
No. You miss my point. I can have a heart filled with nothing but love and good intentions, thus my actions reflect this, ie I do good works. Yet I have never heard of or been exposed to jesus or god, or christianity. According to the bible, I will be condemned to hell nonetheless.
One other question, do you believe that god is omnipotent? Meaning that he can do anything? If yes, please answer the following:
Can god create a stone so heavy that he himself could not lift it? " Yes..I KNOW my God is omnipotent...and I have no need to test my creator...I wouldnt be foolish enough to believe I know more than my creator.
How do you know your god is omnipotent if you have not already tested him?
No one is implying that they know more than a "creator". When one asks questions, they are usually seeking answers.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned , but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotton Son of God.
Thanks, you just proved one of my points. It doesn't matter how much love you have in your heart, or how many good deeds you do. It's all about being in the club. | |
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mak68
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Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 124 | |
| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/6/2007 10:42:53 PM |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UbqZ_oN5do
I'd say everyone is in for a surprise when they get there...
"The French...erm are you here...I'f you'd just like to come down here with the Germans I'm sure you'll have a lot to talk about...Ok Athiests, if you'd come over here please...you must be feeling a right bunch of nitwits...
And finally Christians....Christians? Ah yes I'm sorry, I'm afraid the Jews were right...If you could come down here that would be really kind thank you..."
He does a bit at the end of this concert where he plays a headmaster.... pure comic gold. | |
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| Are Christians the only ones going to Heaven???
Posted: 5/7/2007 12:17:05 AM | Perhaps Alan the Atheist was doing what God wanted him to do, and simply didn't know it. Charlie, on the other hand is acting selfishly, since he is only doing what he feels he MUST, not because he actually believes.
Calling the King James version of the Bible 100% true is absurd in the extreme. It is a state-endorsed English translation of multiple books which had been written in other languages and translated repeatedly, losing much of the actual meaning along the way. I don't know all the details, I'm not a biblical scholar by any stretch of imagination, but I would expect the New Testament to be written in Aremaic, Hebrew, and/or Latin. The Old Testament...Aremaic I think - it antedates Judaism by a great many years, though not necessarily as a single volume. It certainly wasn't written by Luke, John, etc, as someone suggested earlier.
On a related vein, the Bible is often called the "Good Book", but I think this a historical corruption. "Bible" is nothing more than the English derivation of the Greek word for "book". As the ONLY somewhat common book for hundreds of years, copied laboriously by hand, it was the ONE book, and thus the TRUE or GOOD book. Good and true are often synonymous in other languages, such as Greek. Whether the bible is "good" is a matter of perspective. Certainly it is truly a book, just not the only one [by far] any more.
Flaws elsewhere in this thread: A quote regarding "the Lord was with Judah..."
Quite out of context and misinterpretted and out of context, and I don't need to read the Bible to know this. The Lord assured Judah's victory over the people of the mountains. He was given an edge, not escorted by a God bearing weapons. The people of the valley had iron chariots - again, God gave an advantage, not absolute results. The quote says nothing about God being actually present or involved, and has no bearing on His fallability.
Another which stands out: 1+1+1=3...God must be scientifically accurate, or words to that effect. Blather. Someone already pointed out the poorly represented math. Add to that this: Prove God exists. Wait...define Him first, as you can't prove anything without a definition of what you are proving. Get back to me on that. For now, I will simply say that it can't be done. Frankly, the more you can prove scientifically, the further you get from God. God is inexplicable and is responsible for the inexplicable. If you can explain it, why add an inexplicable God to the equation? If you are to mix science and faith, it might be best to limit the science to archaeology, history, etc. Otherwise, you're guaranteed disagreement at some point.
On topic - who am I to say? Frankly, who are any of you to say either? That, however, dodges the point of the thread, so...I can offer a couple thoughts:
It seems to me that most of the scriptural evidence points to doing God's WILL, voluntarily. Not acting in the name of God or the words of scripture, but acting in the spirit because you believe it is right. This leaves a lot of room for other faiths and denominations.
If you are to argue that some of the non-Christians in scripture would be granted heaven, and that Jesus himself was a Jew...
With regard to the former, was Jesus not something of a second chance? Would these people be excluded simply because they existed before God felt a second chance had to be offered?
Regarding Christ himself, I would say that it's arguable whether he was a Jew. Yes, he was born and lived among Jews, but he presented teachings beyond the current Judaism, and he was sent specifically to change Judaism [in that he was there to offer salvation, implying that the current religion wasn't adequate in God's eyes]. He also, obviously, couldn't be Christian. He was unique, whether a prophet, preacher, saviour, whatever. That uniqueness excludes him from the argument. Jews might or might not think he merits heaven. He certainly believed in the right God, but I don't know the Jewish perspective at all. It's moot with Christians, since they generally consider Christ to be a physical manifestation of God, making admission to heaven irrelevant. For Moslems, ironically, I suspect Christ is granted heaven, since he is considered a prophet of Allah.
I think I've run my agnostic ramblings dry for the moment! | |
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