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| | What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept? Page 2 of 2 (1, 2) | You may agree or disagree with my logic ... and explain to the other readers why I'm wrong.
I tried to explain just that ... that there is a fault in your logic.
For those who don't understand...my point is that murder or assults are all hate crimes.
Certain crimes of that category are NOT motivated by hate, but for expediency, as in murder for gain or profit, to cover up another crime, to avoid humilaition, shame, or exposure.
There are also cases based on momentary passions gone out of control, anger, rage, jealousy, envy, revenge.
Some of you have to stop thinking in terms of black and white and see the whole picture.
Killing in the heat of passion should be diferentiated from premeditation.
One is more deliberate and egregious than the other.
Thus the concept of a "hate crime" is in fact, or at least should be redundant. It shouldn't matter why!
Then there are cases where hate can be the motivation to harm a specific individual, a family member, a coworker, a spouse, a neighbor, a rival suitor to a love interest.
Which can be differentiated from cases where hate can be the motivation to harm a non specific member of a group wherein the crime is being commited against the hated group via a random victim.
Motivation is considered in regard to intent ... intent is considered in regard to the degree of conscious premeditation ... premeditation is considered in the severity of the charge and the penalty incurred.
We have to make laws so severe..so that no one..will assult or murder anyone..for any reason. However if they do; the punishment should be more severe, from what we have today.
You apparently don't seem to think that there are any orders of magnitude involved to be considered ... and that punishment may be doled out as a one size fits all proposition.
Allow me to ask how punishment could be more severe than imposing the death penality?
So do you suggest we apply the death penalty across the board in all cases of homicide?
The negligent driver is just as guilty as the husband who in a jealous rage kills the man he finds in bed with his wife?
The man who kills (without intent) in the midst of a bar fight is just as guilty as the man who commits premeditated murder of his wife for profit?
I think these racial, gender and sexual orientation divisions in the laws keep America divided; because it facilitates mis-trust beween these lines
I think that is following pretty lame logic to make an attempt at social engineering. Besides there are probably better ways to achieve a social agenda.
darjeeling | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/20/2006 10:01:46 PM | Just showed the documentary "Hearts of Hate" to my grade 12 class today - it's about the rise of the Heritage Front in the mid-90's here in Canada. Look those folks up on the net sometime, along with groups they affiliate with.
I was in high school when Jim Keegstra was convicted in court for trying to teach his students that the Holocaust was a hoax and that Jews were evil. My legal studies class watched some of the trial.
It was around the same time a group of white supremacists formed a compound just southwest of where I lived - a few years later there was a cross-burning in another town nearby.
Hate laws are a good thing. Period.
Democracy is not just about freedom. It is about responsible citizenship and humanity. | |
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jn5218
| | Joined: 11/12/2005
Msg: 27 | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/20/2006 10:51:32 PM | There are also cases based on momentary passions gone out of control, anger, rage, jealousy, envy, revenge. darjeeling..I do respect your point of view. However look at it this way. a white mans lady cheats on him; he gets a state where momentary passions go out of control. Now lets say, he finds the other guy? Its easy to see why the man is angry or in a blind rage, right? Many things can be going through the guys mind,we will never no exactly why, but it should still be very obvoius why the man is feeling the way he does......correct?
Hate crime legislation gives all groups equal protection from being targeted based on their gender, ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation.
How is that un-equal protection? I wish that were true, but its false. The law does protect some groups, but does so by unfairly labeling other groups as purpetrators. You know its alway assumed a man will abuse a woman or a white guy will attack people of another ethnic backround. This is not always true, hate travels both ways.
Take the above example of the man who finds out his lady cheated on him. Now lets say he takes it too far. He's prosecuted, and the maximum sentence will be sought after, regardless of the degree of the assult including murder.
If the other guy is black, and is brought to harm it will be called a hate crime regardless of the reason. Tell me I'm wrong!!!! If its was a white guy harming another white guy, where is the white victims equal protection under the law? The purpetrator who assulted him wont go to Jail as long, because of the color of the white victims skin. How is that fair?
The Law has to see that we are all people, and all people are worthy of protection. Its got to stop puting people, in this class, and that class, protecting one group at the expence of another. Thats is wrong, we can give any one group more protections than another.
In Martin Luther Kings 'I have a dream" speech he said better than I ever could, but it was clear he wanted equality. We're not all the way there yet, but we have gone far and I hope he would be proud the see how far we have come.
The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. You can read his speach in its entirety http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/D/1951-1975/mlk/dream.htm He was a great American; there can be no doubt he died from a hate crime, but I think he would want us to be fair....I hope he found his promised land.
I as a white guy feel a but uncomftorable quoting Martin Luther King....but he was right. | |
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Sentio
| | Joined: 9/13/2006
Msg: 29 | |
| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/20/2006 11:08:53 PM | Jay this might help thing a little.
What makes a crime be considered as a hate crime?
The FBI quotes a statement by the American Psychological Association about hate crime:
"...not only is it an attack on one's physical self, but is also an attack on one's very identity." Attacks upon individuals because of a difference in how they look, pray or behave have long been a part of human history. It is only recently, however, that our society has given it a name and decided to monitor it, study it and legislate against it."
The FBI defines a hate crime (a.k.a. bias crime) to be:
"a criminal offense committed against a person, property or society which is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin."
Thus: If a thug beats up a randomly selected victim, the assault would not be considered a hate crime.
If a person assaults a friend or acquaintance out of anger, the assault would not be a hate crime.
If a thug beats up a victim who is a stranger and was selected because of their race, it would be a hate crime.
If a person delivers a hate speech denigrating all Jews, or African-Americans, or gays, then this would not be considered a hate crime anywhere in the United States, because no criminal act has occurred. Hate speech is protected under the First Amendment.
Under the Hate Crime Statistics Act of 1990, the FBI has been reporting hate crimes based on perceived race, religion, ethnicity, and sexual orientation. Since 1994, their reports include disability.[/qoute]
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_hat3.htm | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/20/2006 11:16:07 PM | Sentio, thanks for the info...I see more of where your coming from now. I hope I didn't offend you at all with my last post.. I read Martin Luther King whole speach, and the fact that he died the way he did..I felt funny bringing him up.
I still feel we have got to find a way to be fair to all. | |
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Sentio
| | Joined: 9/13/2006
Msg: 31 | |
| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/20/2006 11:29:08 PM | Jay I no problem, enjoy this discussion and I value all the opinions in this matter.
The Hate Laws were made because some states would not prosecute crimes committed against certain groups. Unfortunately, a mans life can be worth less in certain parts of the country, because of who he prays to, have sex with or his ethnicity. I believe until all people are treated equally we will need to have such Federal Laws in place. If a jury of our peers cannot see that a 'certain' type of man deserves punishment, let the Federal Government prosecute the matter. | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/21/2006 12:10:22 AM | I was prompted by a friend to voice an opinion of this thread. I have read through the thread and have to say many of you are actually in the dark as far as what the Federal Hate Crime Legislation entails. To give you some background on how I know this is that I am a paralegal (and have been for almost 15 years) and work for the Federal Prosecutor's Office. So, I might be able to shed some light on the "gray areas" people are referring to as well as inform you that hate crimes are a real and very progressive crime today.
The Federal Government (for the most part) has taken jurisdiction of these types of crimes just as Sentio has stated because certain states do not and have not enacted hate crime legislation. Although there are many states now implementing hate crime legislation into their penal codes. So, some hate crimes committed are a federal offenses and it is considered a 1st Degree Felony which brings more severe punishment on a federal level than it would on a state level. Those states with hate crime legislation the level of offenses ranges from misdemeanors to felonies.
Now, what is a hate crime? Many seem to be a little confused in what it is. Well, depending on the states that do have it in their penal code and the federal government, the definition can vary. The most basic definition of a hate crime is A crime motivated by racial, religious, gender, sexual orientation, or other prejudice. Now this is vague in the legal standpoint because during a commission of a hate crime other crimes can be committed such as assault, harrassment, murder, rape, etc.
Many have opposed hate crime legislation because they feel it takes away their First Amendment right to free speech, but what many are failing to realize that the majority of people that are charged with hate crimes have committed another crime in addition to the initial hate crime itself. For example, the gay college student in Wisconsin. The situation started as a hate crime in the form of harrassment and then assault and murder were added when the boy was basically tortured and killed. Honestly, you have to do something really extreme to be charged with a hate crime federally or on the state level. There are some cases that are currently under appeal and some have been turned over on the grounds that the person(s) First Amendment rights of free speech were violated.
Even though it is the 21st Century, we live in a country filled with racism and bigotry of others beliefs and sexual orientations and I am going to catch a lot of flack for this, but our leadership in the White House really does not help the situation any. His religious beliefs have only mad matters worse for the homosexual population in this country. The only real answer to hate crimes is to teach tolerance to our youth. You may not agree with someone's lifestyle or like the color of their skin, but learning to tolerate it would make the topic of this thread obsolete. Wishful thinking, I know, but one can hope. ;) | |
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vivid
| | Joined: 6/30/2006
Msg: 33 | |
| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/21/2006 12:41:39 AM | I have trouble with it sometimes too. I think the idea is to discourage and
shame the act so that fewer of us will pass on the hate to the next
generation.
For example; Canada has very harsh anti-hate laws; the KKK could never
protest here on the streets without being imprisoned....in America, racism
is overt...but in Canada, it's very subtle - we are not completely innocent, but
you are seeing this legislation working. Hopefully, in a generation or two, it is
virtually non-existent. We'll be light years ahead of the States and they will
continue to struggle forever. Eventually the law will have served it's purpose
and be dropped. | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/21/2006 8:30:34 AM | I drove a taxi in Los Angeles in April of 1992, when an event known as "The Rodney King Uprising" occurred and drew worldwide attention. I remember taking my cab to the garage for routine maintenance early afternoon before the verdict. I sat around with my Latino, and African American friends joking and kidding around about what we felt was a foregone conclusion of a guilty verdict. As the maintenance was concluded, one of the guys in the shop turned up the radio to hear a full acquittal on all account against the officers involved. My friend turned to me and told me to get my ass home and what direction to travel to avoid problems. He told me that the division had just happened and it would not be safe to be associated with me or anyone else who was white. The black men that I considered my friends felt that they were finally going to get justice and be recognized as equal and when the verdict was announced their hopes of ever getting theirs was completely dashed. I lived in San Pedro at the time and traveled along surface streets along a strip of Los Angeles to my home. As I drove through crowded streets I noticed groups of people start to congregate on the street corners. All gangs were represented, all ethnicities, the hate grew from street corner to street corner.
In subsequent days to follow I watched hate crimes over and over, until I became almost numb. As helicopters circled nightly over my home I was filled with a sense of devotion to join in the fight. I decided to throw myself into the fray and dedicate my taxi business to taking people who otherwise could not get a ride. I picked up one man who had been beat so badly that he was bleeding to death in my taxi, his arm torn viciously open almost to the bone. I took him to a immediate care emergency group in Long Beach where he died five minutes after arrival. By the way he was black and his violators were Hispanic. As I cleaned the blood stained seats in my taxi, this surreal feeling came over me. Where was I? What marker would these events have in my personal life, or that of the lives of so many who were affected.
Hate crimes need to be recognized. If federal intervention is the only way to escape localized acquittals then it is the responsibility of the federal government to intervene when state law, and punishment do not fit the crime, or completely ignore it with irresponsible justice. Interpreting thought is a frightening idea, in regards to punishment. But a hate crime is easily recognized.
Hate crimes are not understood, until you live it.
No Justice, No Peace | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/21/2006 10:21:51 AM | As the maintenance was concluded, one of the guys in the shop turned up the radio to hear a full acquittal on all account against the officers involved. My friend turned to me and told me to get my ass home and what direction to travel to avoid problems. He told me that the division had just happened and it would not be safe to be associated with me or anyone else who was white. The black men that I considered my friends felt that they were finally going to get justice and be recognized as equal and when the verdict was announced their hopes of ever getting theirs was completely dashed.
Yup. Just happened in Wisconsin too in the case of off duty cops being aquitted in the Frank Jude beating. Contrary to some of the opinions offered on this board the runious divisions created within the social fabric are not engendered by hate crime legislation, but by instances like this wherein there truly is an unequal enforcement of the law.
I decided to throw myself into the fray and dedicate my taxi business to taking people who otherwise could not get a ride. I picked up one man who had been beat so badly that he was bleeding to death in my taxi, his arm torn viciously open almost to the bone. I took him to a immediate care emergency group in Long Beach where he died five minutes after arrival.
First off, good for you for doing that, and second, man that must have been hard. You certainly have my respect for doing your part to mend even a small portion of that fray.
Hate crimes are not understood, until you live it. No Justice, No Peace
 Amen Brother, and God Bless.
darjeeling | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/21/2006 2:44:30 PM | Hate crimes are not understood, until you live it. I didn't want to share this, but here I go..... In 1991 I'm walking down the streat in North Minneapolis minding my own business, then I was jumped by 3 black guys. During my ordeal, they call me sh*t like blue eyed devil, and a host of other racial slurs against whites....Believe me, I do understand.
My identity as a white man was attacked that day. I know If I had been killed, Its doubtful it would have made the news, unless it was the other way around....and that disturbs me. I'm not trying to play a victim here, and I refuse to be one. I just want fairness, and It seems that our society can't make fair rules down the middle. Why do we have to oppress one class in order to set things right with another?
"...not only is it an attack on one's physical self, but is also an attack on one's very identity." Attacks upon individuals because of a difference in how they look, pray or behave have long been a part of human history. It is only recently, however, that our society has given it a name and decided to monitor it, study it and legislate against it." This looks good on paper, my problem is that the hate laws are defined so vague as to be almost meaningless, this creates room for selective enforcement of the law. Remember hate travels both ways. This is a bigest reason that the current laws still facilitate distrust between various classes, because they know the law would be easy to abuse.
We all deserve equall protection under the law regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, and religion, etc. I agree that black people have held the short end of the stick of justace for most of US history. I don't want any one class having the upper hand over another. If we must have hate laws, they need to be redefined and made clear.
I still feel that other laws would serve to protect if actually followed, although penalties should be made stiffer. Lets look at 911, we didn't need the patriot act...we just needed the people in charge to follow the laws we already had place, if they did, those planes would have never hit any of the buildings. It was never about poor laws; it was about a severe lack of leadership and follow-through with what we already had in place.
The lack of justice isn't only at the crime scene, its about how the case is handled. If people of any class know their officials will cover something up or "over look" something that would be incriminating to them, so having more laws may be pointless. | |
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Sentio
| | Joined: 9/13/2006
Msg: 37 | |
| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/21/2006 3:50:18 PM |
I didn't want to share this, but here I go..... In 1991 I'm walking down the streat in North Minneapolis minding my own business, then I was jumped by 3 black guys. During my ordeal, they call me sh*t like blue eyed devil, and a host of other racial slurs against whites....Believe me, I do understand.
I would consider this a hate crime. If you read through my post in the past, I have stated that it works both ways. I am sorry you had to endure such a horrible crime. I have heard many stories of this happening to people and I hope you don't hold this crime against all African-Americans. This is a situation that if they would have been convicted, the prosecutor could of tried as a hate crime. I don’t know the law, but it sounds like it to me. | |
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Sentio
| | Joined: 9/13/2006
Msg: 38 | |
| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/21/2006 5:04:41 PM | From Jay152
I wouldn't ever hold any class of people responsible because of the actions of a few. Just like I know you wouldn't. Most people are good, regardless of their gender, race, sexual orientation, and religion, etc.
I have seen hatred from different points of views. I have friends from all walks of life and I understand the need for the Hate Crime laws. I also believe that its important to see the point of view from other people's perspective. I don't view Jay152 as a racist or someone ignorant. I respect the fact that he is asking the questions and looking for the answers. I believe that is how we will no longer need such laws. I have tried to grow through trying to put myself in others shoes. | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/22/2006 8:46:10 AM | Is a redundant concept if based in generalization. It isn't if categorized. That's why the definition.
Equality mean equality under the law. This can be achieved with legislation.
There is a rule of thumb for the investigation of any crime: time, motive and possibilities. The circumstances around the crime committed is the distinction of the crime and the perpetrator.
The severity of the punishment is decided based on circumstances and motives.
The purpouse of the law was never intented to regulate what to do, but what can not be done.
Philosophical an social equality can be achieved only with the acceptance over our differenceses and tolerance with our daily life as individual. That is, it depends from us. | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/22/2006 10:18:34 AM |
In 1991 I'm walking down the streat in North Minneapolis minding my own business, then I was jumped by 3 black guys. During my ordeal, they call me sh*t like blue eyed devil, and a host of other racial slurs against whites.... I'm not trying to play a victim here
You don't need to 'play' the victim Jay ... you were one on that day.
My identity as a white man was attacked that day. I know If I had been killed, Its doubtful it would have made the news, unless it was the other way around....and that disturbs me.
If it would go unreported that would disturb me too.
I just want fairness, and It seems that our society can't make fair rules down the middle. Why do we have to oppress one class in order to set things right with another?
How does hate crime legislation oppress one class over another?
In my mind the attack on you was racially motivated judging from your comments on it ... but since hate crime legislation was not on the books at that time it was most likely considered as simple assault.
This looks good on paper, my problem is that the hate laws are defined so vague as to be almost meaningless, this creates room for selective enforcement of the law. Remember hate travels both ways. This is a bigest reason that the current laws still facilitate distrust between various classes, because they know the law would be easy to abuse.
You will need to explain your reasoning on this ... it seems to me WE are ALL are covered under a protected group status if we are targeted based on an individuals animus toward any particular grouping on the criterea of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.
The charge would apply to convict a millitant lesbian feminist's random attacks on any male simply because he was a convenient victim male, as much as it would apply to convict any other perpetrator's attack of any other random victim based on their personal animus against any group.
Hate can travel along many ways ... I had my car keyed due to someone not appreciating my politics. Folks have been targeted for attacks based on having the Confederate Flag as a bumper sticker.
I still feel that other laws would serve to protect if actually followed, although penalties should be made stiffer. Lets look at 911, we didn't need the patriot act...we just needed the people in charge to follow the laws we already had place, if they did, those planes would have never hit any of the buildings. It was never about poor laws; it was about a severe lack of leadership and follow-through with what we already had in place.
For once I agree with you ... The Dept. of Homeland Security was and is a huge boondoggle in my mind, and I don't believe nearly half of the 9-11 Commisions reccomendations should be taken seriously.
A better answer would be to follow the prescription of George Washington's foreign policy stance ... neutrality toward all, and beware of harboring passionate attachments.
darjeeling | |
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lira
| | Joined: 6/8/2006
Msg: 41 | |
| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/22/2006 1:25:30 PM | | A hate crime is committing a crime against someone because of race, sexual orientation or relegion. I do believe all crimes should be treated the same. Murder and assault is murder and assault no matter what the reason is. | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 9/22/2006 10:02:58 PM | I have to say there is many interesting points made here on both sides. I think we all want everyone to have equal protection under the law, but are in disagreement as to how. Some feel that hate crime laws is thought control, of which is impossible to monitor. I see the other side looks at it as two crimes taking place at the same time, one is the assult itself and the other is the racial slurs that accompany it. If that is the case, then it seems reasonable to charge the perpetrator with two crimes, if the 2nd already has laws against it.
However, some would argue that none of us has the legal right not to be insulted, and thus should not be a prosecutable offence. Is a racial slur a mere insult? Many would argue no. The problem with that could be there are many interpitations of a racial slur is, other than the obvious. Some could feel there identity is being attacked; just by someone makeing a uncomfortable observation of a a few in their ethnic group, but not the whole. Many of us are quick to jump to conclutions about someone in another group if we ourself are prejudice. It is the ugly side of human nature, so it concerns me.
The freedom of speech angle, is not a defence, for exaple you can't yell "fire" in a crowded movie theater, and free speach has other limits too. However, people can still say you said various things even if you didn't, and it your word agaist theirs. The victim will be angry, and it would be human for that person to add anything they could to make the perpitrator go away longer. People also hear things that may not have been said at all under duress; so the victim may not be lying, even if nothing was said.
Let me say this, and I'm suprised it has not really come up yet, burning a cross is NOT protected free speach, it is a terroristic threat that tells the family inside they are marked for death. There can be no mistake of what something like that means. We don't need hate laws to fight that. Anyone who burns a cross should be punished as a terrorist. Its clear in my mind that such an action is to bring fear, not only to the family inside, but also to the entire community.
During 911 as stated my last post, the people in charge didn't do their jobs; if more laws need to be made to combat what many define as a "hate crime" they should not pointed towards the gerneral population, but towards those in charge instead. I know cops beat people up all the time for all sorts of reasons. I know there is a lot of coruption in the government, so lets make laws that hold them accoutable first. Think about it, when our leaders are made to follow the law, the rest of society should do it naturally. It shouldn't be hard to do either, our elected officails don't have the same protections as a social worker or cop has today, so it shouldn't be hard to convince them to help us out there.
I'd like to ad that I don't hate black people for what happend in 1991. My parents taught me not to judge the whole, based on the actions of a few, and I do feel that most people are good regardless of their goup...even lefties..lol :-) | |
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| What is a hate crime? Is it a redundant concept?
Posted: 5/13/2007 11:17:35 AM | Assuming a man/woman came home early and saw their lover in bed with another person. I'm pretty sure assaulting that person would cross most peoples minds at that point, whether they act on it is another story.
There is no doubt if the "other person" is a one of color, and if you're white, your're going to get in more trouble if you do. While you shouldn't hurt anyone, it seems wrong that you will have trumped up charges, if you do.
I agree with the people who say it's thought control, but its also seems like racism used in the other direction.
I have noticed that black people are so hypersensitive and easily offended arount whites, Its like walking on eggshells. lets say you got a black ink stain on your pants, good luck bringing that subject up in front of a them. Theywill no doubt turn it into a racial statment against them. They'll try to make you feel small or like a biggit. Yet they call each other "The N word", and do so with great affection! WTF!!!!! You know they would kick my A$$ for saying it, cause I'm white. | |
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