| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 3/20/2005 12:12:00 PM | Ya gotta wonder what his face would look like if when he saw you having tea with his wife in his livingroom though.
I guess I intended the comment more as a revenge fantasy than as a game plan. It sounds, upon further description, like the guy is more distasteful than truely dangerous at any rate. Part of being in a medical field is working around really smelly stuff occasionally and it sounds like he's one of them. | |
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RitzNB
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Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 51 | |
| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 3/20/2005 1:48:02 PM | | There was certainly a lack of judgement on his part. He crossed the line when he called the woman at home. If the advances are unwanted or make a woman really uncomfortable then it's SEXUAL HARASSMENT. If a woman doesn't say anything to this person and he continues then he might be confused or just in the dark. He might actually think she likes it. She needs to set boundaries. Men cannot read a woman's mind. Be clear. Say I feel uncomfortable, don't do this, you're out of line ..... If it continues then he gets what's coming. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 3/20/2005 2:05:11 PM | I've been known to give the occassional office neck massage..I work a rather stressful type of job. Theres nothing wrong with it....as long as its welcomed.
But ya...gotta be careful and limit it I suppose.
so what do you do if there is someone at work you really like, and the vibe most definately appears mutual? If you are really serous about dating the person....one of you needs to resign first I think, or get a transfer | |
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RitzNB
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Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 55 | |
| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 7/10/2005 10:20:45 PM | there is a difference between flirting and sexual harrassment, and most women and men are smart enough to know the difference. flirting isn't offensive, no matter how attractive or not attractive the man is, but if he doesn't take no for an answer, or is rude or suggestive about it, then it's harrassment. everyone has their own idea about what's rude or what qualifies as going too far, so it's best not to even go there if you don't know the person and their tolerances.
^^^^^^^^^^
@ sidheanwwyn
I agree with with you. There's a difference between sexual harrassment and flirting and most people know the difference. There's a fine line there that shouldn't be crossed ever. Unwanted advances are never welcomed. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 7/10/2005 10:31:25 PM | I don't care how hot a guy is or isn't, if he's constantly trying to get me to have sex with him, and I keep saying no...and I am not welcoming his advances, guess what? It's sexual harrassment...
Any woman who changes up her option because of looks is just odd and a little off if you ask me.
And sexual harrassment isn't an accusation anyone should just toss around...it's a serious thing and should be treated with respect. | |
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RitzNB
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Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 57 | |
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RitzNB
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Joined: 3/16/2005
Msg: 58 | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/16/2009 10:12:28 AM | Unfortunately (and yes it goes both ways), sometimes harassment is difficult to prove because the offender is not doing/saying anything outright sexual.
It could be as subtle as an eyebrow lift, a wink or a certain grin aimed at evoking the other's response. The target definitely feels uncomfortable, but can't go complaining to HR that "s/he's looking at me suggestively".
Also, often a witness is wanted in such cases, but the harasser won't DO anything in someone else's range! It gets very complicated. I don't wonder why many people won't report it: by the time it reaches the obvious stage, the target has become so deeply immersed in either denial or survival mode, s/he probably can't imagine anybody believing what's happening anyway, having gotten so used to thinking "it's probably just my imagination."
Think of the story of Laura Black and Richard Farley.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Farley
Nobody really took her seriously because she smiled a lot and was so gorgeous, including her attire, they assumed she was somehow asking for it. Their complacence ultimately resulted in the shooting rampage that ended many lives at the company.
--------------- note: ----------------------------
The wiki page doesn't address the struggle Laura had with HR, but the movie, "Stalking Laura",
starring Brooke Shields and Richard Thomas, delves into this much more. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/16/2009 11:20:18 AM | You are not cognizant of what constitutes sexual harassment--it isn't flirting, it is UNWANTED sexual attention, and flirting doesn't necessarily include sexual aspects.
However, the word "unwanted" is key: if the hunk makes an overt sexual statement and the woman likes it, it isn't harassment. If the man makes an overt sexual statement and the woman "isn't into him," then it could be construed as harassment because the advance is UNWANTED.
Merely asking a woman out is not harassment, but if she says no and the man persists, it could turn into harassment. A woman, or a man, has the right to decide from whom she/she wants attention. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/16/2009 2:37:46 PM | ^^^^^^^ wow Cereallover
You know in the new millenium aternative lifestyles are becoming more accepted so you're going to have to apply the same rules to guys. My suggestion is go out and buy a burka and one of those S&M gag balls (that should cover all your bases).
I don't mean this as a personal attack...I just can't fanthom going into a job with that level of paranoia. Wouldn't do it...being part of a true team, sharing hopes/dreams with colleagues are integral parts of what makes a job for me worthwile.
IMO fostering an environment of mutual respect, courtesy, and empathy is the best way to avoid these problems. Encouraging people to speak their mind and taking an active interest in them allows for people to know where that line is drawn and promotes intervention if needed.
Those who alienate themselves from colleagues in my experience are those who are most likely to cross the line or be misinterpretted.
Unfortunately we live in a society of lawsuites and sometimes people let that be their guide. It's easy to treat things in black & white then to understand the underlying principles. It takes effort and patience but well worth it in the end.
It's also a sad fact that there are organizations which don't foster this type of environment...perhaps yours is one. Don't let it taint you. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/16/2009 4:14:57 PM |
...Go get a woman you work with to accuse you of rape, without evidence or proof, and tell everyone you work with and see what happens.
Obviously, someone needs a lesson on what constitutes sexual harrassment and the facts about rape, as they are two different things. Making light of rape, as the scenario presented does, is disgusting and juvenile.
As was stated in other posts, harrassment is UNWANTED sexual attention. By 'unwanted', I mean that the man/woman has been told their actions/words are neither solicited nor appreciated, and to stop, but they continue.
Having worked with a boss who was sexually aggressive, and who was later sued for sexual harrassment by someone else who worked for him, I can tell you that it isn't 'flirty' or fun--it can be absolutely frightening when it happens. I handled my situation, and the harrassment stopped--unfortunately, the man moved to another district and continued to harrass other women until, as I said, he was sued--and fired. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/16/2009 5:39:49 PM | Cereallover
Perhaps a bad attempt at humor - again my apologies. Please note I assumed that it's the organizational culture that you may be accostomed to.
I actually have 2 masters where I work - the university and an American based property management company. By far the university has more thurrough and detailed policies/procedures regarding sexual harrassment. I've worked in private, pubicly traded and governmental agencies.
True litigation isn't as prevellant but is very similiar to the states. Even had someone once successfully sue because coffee was hot - lol
Same up here, there are whack jobs which can destroy your career if you're not careful. Which leads me to my original point #1...I'm not gonna let the potential of a whack job change all my behaviour.
Using drinking and driving as an analogy......
I know they're out there. Is it going to prevent me from getting into a car .... no. But, by understanding my environment and human nature I might be more carefull driving through the bar district on a Saturday night and even more so on Homecoming weekend.
The second point I was trying to make......there are alternatives to segregating yourself from your co-workers.
True Story (abridged)
Colleague: "Miss X is uncomfortable because she thinks you're hitting on her."
Me: "I don't think I'm doing anything different......oh wait she just broke up with her Mr. X, didn't she. Apologize to her for me and if she wants we can talk about it."
Later that day the complaintant came to me to apologize for overreacting...I said she wasn't - hey it's her life (people deal with pain & confusion in different ways) - and I apologized.
The reason why this was possible was of the corporate culture which promoted interaction and understanding. I have worked in places where there might be a distict possibility of getting sent to HR over something like this (there's 1 reason why I don't work in such places).
Was there fall-out? Yeah, the rumor mill went for maybe a day and a half. But, because of the interconnectedness of our work environment people saw it for what it was (please note I've worked in several places with similiar attitudes - at corporate, private and govermental levels).
As I mentioned before it might just be the environment you're used to. Could I get a better paying job to work in a culture which promotes misunderstandings - yes - I choose not to. I like to think I help create the environment I'm part of ....then again perhaps, I'm just lucky.
Whether you want to see this as passive-aggressive post is your choice. I choose to see it as providing an alternate suggestion instead of deepening a divide. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/16/2009 5:45:24 PM |
Making light of rape, as the scenario presented does, is disgusting and juvenile.
Making light of rape is never an option.
As was stated in other posts, harrassment is UNWANTED sexual attention. By 'unwanted', I mean that the man/woman has been told their actions/words are neither solicited nor appreciated, and to stop, but they continue.
Exactly.
I was in the office at school just yesterday and a man who has made many passes at me in the past (and been rebuffed each time) did it again. Not only did he make the pass (in front of the secretary!) but handed me a newspaper clipping discussing erectile dysfunction. I was NOT happy. I stalked from the room but later asked the secretary if I had done ANYTHING to encourage him. She replied "absolutely not" and that my actions and body language were quite clear.
Next time, I won't ignore his unwanted attention--and WHY did he ASSUME that I was interested in reading something about erectile dysfunction?
Which leads me to reply to this post:
If the women is all Heated up and wants you to cop a feel green light!
Buy if she`s not interested and you make a pass at her this could be perceived as sexual harassment!
If after a series of rebuffs a man does NOT realize that a woman is not interested and continues to harangue her, apparently, the only way to get him to stop is to report him.
And ANY man who "cops a feel" outside a known and accepted relationship is an idiot. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/16/2009 6:23:06 PM | Time for another Opinion by: ME!
Here are my examples from my own and several other experiences. The setting is in the U.S. Army.
We're all aware of some of the military's brutal history in allowing women to join. I'm glad they finally came to their senses and allowed a woman to equally work with a man in the military. However, sadly, in some back corners aweful things still happen, things I'd never condone.
Because of this, the military has a VERY strict sexual harrassment policy. It is also more strictly enforced on men because of the few bad incidents. Any talk made by a man to a female co worker other than work related, if found "offensive" byt he female, can, and will most likely be punished. This is fine, by my standards. However, it is not fine to watch women take advantage of this for revenge, spite, fear, or control.
One particular incident was during my AIT Training. A young, very attractive brunette female began making sexual advances towards me. Mind you I was not the first guy, and definitely wasn't the last. However, she was married, so I felt more than obligated to politely reject her advances. Later, a good friend of both of ours began expressing an interest in me, and I returned the interest. She had a poor run in with a fellow co-worker before in a relationship that didn't work out. Mind you, sex is completely prohibited 100% regardless of status, during Military training academies such as AIT or Basic Training, for this specific reason.
We talked for awhile, and I always made made sure she was never uncomfortable with any discussions. A couple weeks go by and we get to go on leave, and she decides to tag along with me and a few buddies. We go the whole day, flirting and just hanging out together, her getting a little tipsy by this time. It comes time to turn in, and she begins to get unnecessarily rude, saying how she'd never do anything with me, blah blah. I shrugged it off and accepted her decline, and we turned in for the night, which later she tried to make an advance, but given her inhebriation and recent rejection, I respectfully declined.
NOW comes the actual point of this story. The following day, I approach the young woman, and apologize for possibly offending her, as I really cared for her as a friend. A couple hours later, I am pulled off to the side by two Drill Seargants with MP's [Military Police] Standing by, and the two girls forementioned in the story. First thing I'm confronted with was heavily sexually harrassing the young women, leaving them the fear that I might commit an atrocity. After I declared innocence, the Drill Seargant instructed the first woman of the story to state what had happened. After being able to be inconsistant with the story, she finally regressed, and admitted that it had not been nearly as bad as she portrayed.
Mind you, I was terrified that I might end up spending the next 10 years in prison for something I didn't do. After the drill seargant asked once more, and I firmly and truthfully, in handcuffs, told him that Ihad never sexually harrassed them, he stated to both me and them, to prevent further incidents, that we were oblidged to remain 100 ft of each other. In otherwords, a makeshift two way restraining order. One of which, after the given circumstances, I was HAPPY to oblige. 45 minutes later, the second female whom I had considered a friend, had come to me explaining what had happened in detail. I told her I respected and valued her honesty, and informed her that any further contact with me would result in my immediate informing of the military police. I lost a good friend, but for my own safety from crooked misuse of policies, it was for the best.
I'm sure there have been cases of this applying both ways. But it's just merely an example, poorly at best, of how people can misuse sexual harrassment policies for their own benfiit or pleasure. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/17/2009 12:46:56 AM |
Do not date female coworkers.
Do not speak to them about anything non work related.
Do not have a closed door meeting alone with a female.
Do not socialize with female coworkers outside of work.
Do not make jokes of any kind around a female coworker.
Do not engage in any behavior that could be perceived as a "prank" around a female coworker.
Do not work alone late with a female coworker.
Do not compliment a woman's appearance at work, if solicited for a compliment from a woman at work about her appearance, tell her she looks very professional.
Whenever possible, document everything.
Whenever possible, do not discuss your personal life at work.
Whenever possible, play dumb if you know a female at work is romantically interested in you and pretend like you have no idea what she is doing when she tries to seduce you.
Is it possible that some nut job could make false accusations and hurt your career? Certainly, some false charges might occur and people at your office might talk about you and look at you strange. Still, I'd say the overall risk is pretty small. But I can guarantee that if you follow all of that advice people will definitely look at you strange and talk about you.
People will think you have problems socializing with others or have some weird problem with women and it will hurt you come promotion time. While I have never dated a coworker, I have broken every other one of your rules. Most I break daily. Perhaps its just my work environment, I work in an office with 7 women and only one other guy. If I followed your rules I basically wouldn't be able to talk all day.
My advice is just be smart. If you're flirting with someone and they're not flirting back, just stop. Test the humor waters before laying out something that might be considered offensive. If you're not sure, just ask. Most people will let you know what they find offensive and what their limits are. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/17/2009 5:13:13 AM | This really is not at all confusing.........
It become harassment (possibly sexual) when we clearly state we are not interested and still the man makes unwanted advances towards us.
It has nothing to do with if a man is "hot" or not, but it does have to do with whether or not we are interested in the person.
This is very simple, for all those men out there if a woman states she is not interested in you for whatever reason - BACK OFF! | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassement when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/17/2009 7:44:38 AM | Truth is, few nowadays truly understand the art of flirting without adding a whole bunch of inappropriate sexual innuendos in the mix. I think I've been single long enough to have some evidence to support what I'm saying here.
Flirting was originally a playful exchange between persons. It still is for some people, but the truth is that some men are just pigs about how they flirt and somehow figure what they are doing is flirting when they are actually being quite offensive.
What many men seem to miss is that the female isn't giving ANY signal that she is even remotely interested and yet the guy keeps "flirting" with her until she finally has to uncomfortably tell him to back the hell off! That isn't flirting, it's just being rude, not to mention inviting a lot of hostility toward himself.
I honestly think they need to teach classes in appropriate flirting in high school because some just don't "get" how it works.
BUT if a woman is hypocritical enough to forego her discomfort with flirting because the guy is "oh so hot"...that's more about her being an idiot than it is about men's looks. The fact that she acquiesces to something she would otherwise find discomforting because she sees an advantage in allowing it is more an indication of a lack of integrity than it does any kind of double standard.
Heck, just to see how powerful are "looks" and attractiveness, just hear some stories about how that gorgeous female managed to clean out men's bank accounts, drove away with brand new cars and fur coats because some poor schmuck was "under her spell."
This isn't about flirting...this is about people who are all about how someone looks and having that "trophy" prospect that makes them feel oh so desirable...because heck, if HE is after me, I must be pretty hot.
Hedonism is an interesting thing. | |
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| It's flirting when he's hot and sexual harassment when he's not - What do you think
Posted: 5/17/2009 7:54:56 AM | Very true, I realized this years ago when a young lady I knew was approached by a friend of mine whom she didn't like. She told me what he said to her and that she felt he was a pig. But a guy she liked talked to her the same way, yet she had no complaints about him.
Same as it is stalking when she is in one mood and romance when it is another.
Yup, if Juliet wasn't into Romeo, he would have gone down in history as the worlds most famous stalker. 
Many women will say it's not true, but as men we know it is. So make sure a woman is into you before saying anything risque. | |
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