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mizbex
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Joined: 9/8/2006
Msg: 201 | |
| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 9:47:59 AM | I love men too and they seem to love me and more importantly they respect me just as I respect them. As we all should respect one another as human beings.
During the summer I went on a first date with a man who was well off, over $150K a year. I met him at a very nice restuarant for dinner, his choice, the evening was pleasant enough I wasn't sure it was a match, but not a bad date. The bill came, it had to be well over $200, I asked if he wanted me to get it, or pitch in, his response "absolutely not, it is my pleasure to buy you dinner." Very nice, right. We then go to a jazz club, have a glass of wine, chat blah blah blah, again I offer to pay, will not hear of it. Evening comes to a close, he walks me to my car, does the big lean in for a kiss goodnight, yeah OK, kisses me and then proceeds to try and stick his had up my shirt. I pushed him away from me and said what do you think you are doing, he said what do you mean, I bought you dinner. That was a first date and a last date and the last thing I felt was womanly. That was an expectation on his part, a really bad one, but nontheless an expectation.
When I go on a date, I have no expectations other than to be treated with curteousy and respect, just as I treat my companion. In the past four years I have been on a fair amount of dates, only twice has something like this happened to me, where there were expectations because he bought me dinner. I think that most men are good guys and would never pull a stunt like that and very few men feel that if they treat a woman that she owes him in some way, I just don't think men feel that way. I think it is more important to most men to be able to respect the woman he is with and know that even without him she can stand on her own two feet and feel like a woman all by herself and I would think that would make a man very proud. My point is this, I am looking for a man who is confident enough to ask for directions when he gets lost, who knows that he is a man and is past having to prove anything to anybody and most of all appreciates a woman who works hard and wants to be an equal and contributing partner in a relationship. For me it does not matter who pays, as that has no bearing on how I feel about myself, because the most important relationship you have in life is the one you have with yourself. | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 10:02:07 AM | Don't worry coolpeach, many of us DO understand what you are saying and have no argument with it, it just makes sense. I've talked to both men and women about it and most I've talked to have the same viewpoint as you. Some people just think that men and women are the same in all respects and should be doing the same thing.. Of course this is a fallacy, and it also doesn't mean that just because men are men and women are women (as in different) doesn't mean they are not both equally human and don't deserve the same respect and human decency.
A man will not be as thrilled to receive flowers from a woman as a woman might be from a man, for example. This doesn't mean the woman cannot give different gifts to a man that will be more appropriate for who he is, and that also doesn't mean that suddenly she needs to lose the right to vote, or shouldn't go out to work and make her living. Men and women both appreciate gifts from the opposite sex in different ways, that doesn't make them sexist or unequal! Sigh.. I thought everyone knew this even today. What is a "gift" or something to be appreciated for a man from a woman is different for what is a "gift" for a woman from a man. If we don't take these things into account, there will be more single people on this Earth than people in relationships any day.
I was in a relationship for a long time in which my ex refused to pay for anything on the excuse that he never had money. I thought, I loved him, who cares? I used to think just like all the women on here who say that men shouldn't be taking women out to dinner and all that. But I can tell you after that relationship, I am the converted. The first few dates my ex and I went out on, I ended up paying even though it was him who asked me out, what can I say, I was a sucker and I didn't know any better and I had all sorts of illusions like "well I'm certainly able to pay and just because I'm a woman why should he pay" and things like that. I've learned since then that no man of mine is going to be freeloading off me, and if a man I'm with refused to treat me with the respect I deserve, I simply won't continue with him. This has nothing to do with buying me dinner or not, at the beginning of a relationship the reason why many men pay for things is not because the women don't have the ability (they most certainly do), but because they want to show they appreciate this woman's company and this is no skin off their back to show a simple gesture. A man who won't do this at the beginning stages is simply foreshadowing what's to come, and I can speak from experience on that.
It doesn't matter how much people admit or deny how it is or isn't. We just have to look around us and acknowledge reality. | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 10:16:16 AM | Mizbex,
I respect your opinion, and I am sorry that guy was such a creep. There are men out there like that, but I have heard all sorts of stories. For example a girl on here once said she paid for the meal, and after the man started feeling her up because he thought she wanted to because she was so eager to pay for his food. So it seems no matter which way you go you will always eventually run into someone like that.
I feel you can be a woman who stands on her own two feet, and a contributing partner in a relationship, and still let the man pay for lunch. And his paying for lunch doesn't make you feel proud about yourself, but it makes you feel all those instinctual, batting eyelash, butterfly's in your stomach feelings which is exactly what he's supposed to be making you feel.
I like confident mean also, but I love the little odd things that make them different from women, and I would be afraid if I changed these little things I might end up with a girlfriend instead of a lover. I would also like a man who appreciates these differences in me, and doesn't treat me like a man.
I guess for now we will just have to respect each others opinion, and agree to disagree | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 10:24:35 AM | | Once my late lady sent me flowers at work. It had nothing to do with appropriateness (I do not go for flowers). It was merely a matter of letting the world know how she felt about me. It got noticed!!!!! | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 10:30:55 AM | First, one would have to define "women".
All women? or women of a certain age?
Women 50 and up are from an era where equal opportunity did not exist
therefore they did not have the same level of disposable income as men.
Men could afford to pay.
Women's roles were primary caregiver to the family and if they worked
also then the men had a moral responsibility to show their appreciation
for the women's additional contribution.
The cultural morals were that men paid to get together with a special women
and women gladly accepted being treated special.
Then in the late 70's forward, women attending universities and obtaining
higher paying employment increased.
Pay equity came in.
Some women were caught in the old pay scale systems and some were
in the balanced pay systems.
Society was in a transition and transition = conflicts because one group
realizes that they are getting less than another group.
By the 90's pay equity was the norm. You are a female autoworker doing
the same job as a male then you get the same pay, etc..
Today, 50% of grad accountants and lawyers graduating are women.
Women in these higher status jobs realized that they were getting more
money now but the quality of life sucked. That the real status for a female
is in the loving eyes of their children where she shares her love with them.
However, the husband came 3rd after her job and the children. Divorce increased.
Relationships are time intensive on a fluctuating basis.
Currently, many single males are paying support, as females are
also, therefore the majority of males' disposable income is near nil.
They simply cannot afford to pay first date after first date after
first date meeting meals.
Unfortunately women with the old norm expectation of a male paying
degrade males by their view that the man is cheap. These women
are either uninformed or self centered in their out of date expectations.
Women, Think of men no paying this way:
If you and a man find you are compatible and you live together
then you cost of living goes down by a 1/3 because you have
one apartment and making one meal for 2 is cheaper therefore
he can then, hopefully, have some money left over to take you
out once in a while to treat you for just being a women.
Right now he simply has very little money available to do this.
Look at this reality:
If a single man is meeting 2 women per week to find the right
partner then that is 8 meals per month plus his 8 meals he has
to pay for, when he would otherwise eat at home, this can
add up to 1-300$. My early experiences with first time meetings
with women was to offer to pay but I found an increase of women
asking to meet me at places such the King Edward Hotel Victoria room
and they order a 50$ meal. Twice, DURING the meal these two women
said, "I have decided you are not for me." After the 2nd time, I took the
approach that we are both their for our common purpose, we share
in our decision and we share in the cost of that decision by split paying
the restuarant tab, or let us meet in a coffee shop and I will treat.
90% of the women took it as an insult. I had only talked to them on the
phone once and they expected a meal. They didn't understand the cost
to multiple meetings of women in restuarants was beyond the average
males disposable income.
Women are no different to men, they are mostly moral and good
ethics and would not take advantage of others including males.
But you would be amazed at how many of those bad apples can
circulate around quickly and suck in a lot of the opposite sex
for whatever...sex, booze, money, etc.....
Decide If you are looking for a good lifetime partner or a paid
meal. If it's the partner then you should be willing to meet
them 1/2 way as that is what a partnership is about.
Blessings on being a good partner and finding a good partner.
AdvisorX | |
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mizbex
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Joined: 9/8/2006
Msg: 207 | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 12:19:18 PM | Funny how this thought keeps being brought up in this thread by the women:
Paying = Respect
We keep hearing that the man needs to show the respect the lady deserves or some variation on that theme. Yet that respect is always equated to a monetary thing. In very few posts has respect been quated to the other tradiotional gender roles that are constantly being brought up. Opening car door, seating the woman, standing when the woman leaves or returns to the table, returning phone calls promptly, etc are all traditional male roles that signify respect for the woman? Have these been brought up? If they have at all it has been scarce.
From this thread I have learned that respect no longer means treating the woman well, treating her with respect and defference, treating her like your equal. It now solely means paying for her meal or other dating activity.
As much as I have posted on here about sharing the financial responsibility of dating it is something that I have rarely allowed. I just think that it is an impressive thing when a woman values my company enough to want to share in the cost of our shared entertainment. It also shows that she is willing to contribute to the development of a relationship between us. In my mind, if she is not willing to invest in building the relationship, the relationship has no future. Otherwise all she is doing is allowing me to continue to take her on dates until SHE decides if she likes me or not.
Another common theme throughout this thread is that women feel that us men must show the women how much we care about them in order to prove ourselves worthy. This is accomplished several ways. There is the he must email me multiple times before I answer him ploy. There is the popular he must ask me out on a date multiple times before I will accept ploy. And there is the theme of this thread, he must spend money on me to prove that he is worthy of me. Quite frankly all of the above are simply ridiculous. If I am interested I will email you once, maybe twice just to be sure. After that, no more. I will ask you out one time. If you say no, I will not ask again. I am not going to beg for your attention. As I have emailed you, talked to you on the phone, asked you out on a date, I think you know that I like you and I am interested in getting to know you better. Is it really neccessary for me to prove this to you by paying for all of our entertainment too? I think you women are astute enough to figure out we are interested long before then.
The genetic predisposition for women to take care of man is completely overdone in these forums. It is used to justify all things from why women prefer taller men to shorter, to the topic at hand here. While there may be a small shred of evidence supporting this how can we support this behavior in women and yet abhor this same primordial behavior in men? In the protective era of early man, when man wanted sex, he took it by force or intimidation. Sure man provided food and protection for the woman, but that is all he did. The women were overburdened with all of the other aspects of life other than those activities. Men were not your companions, friend, lovers, parents or partners. As men we have evolved far beyond that. We are your friend, lover, partner and we share in the parenting. We share household duties. We have evolved. We no longer take sex through force or intimidation...we are your lover, your caring partner that cares about your enjoyment.
Men have evolved greatly, why can't women evolve equally? The answer is they have. However, many of you want to hang on to this theory of genetic predisposition to justify your current behavior in the dating arena. I would suggest finding another justification du jour as this one no longer works.
The answer to this is all very simple. The lines seem to be very firmly drawn in the sand on this topic. We can discuss this ad nauseum and not many of us are going to change our minds. As you are building a relationship both the man and the woman need to openly and very candidly establish their position on this topic. Then both can know where ths stands and if the relationship is being built on a solid foundation. If the disagree on this fundamental building block then they can agree to let it go until they can both find someone with compatable views in this area. | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 1:40:52 PM | I dont know about anyone else on here but I use paying as a test. I simply say, "I've got this one, you get the next one, K? :-)" If she gladly agrees or decides to simply split the check it shows me that
1. she is independant
2. she wants my compaionship
3. she is willing to meet me at least half way and that is all i ask
4. she does not need me or my money
however if she refuses it shows
1. she might not have the money (why doesnt she have the money? she needs a man)
2. she could be a gold digger
3. she simply is not attracted enough to me and is using me to entertain her. (basically she wants a guy to show her a good time, but she isn't serious and probably never was)
4. she is old fasioned (whatever the hell that means, i bet if i was the incredible hunk she would glady pay half. old fasioned? so your telling me you think i should make all the money for the family and you sit at home and raise babies, lol, because that is old fasioned, i dont want kids yet)
im sure you can add to this list but these are just some basics.
bottom line.
we will go on a date together and we will share the expenses together and through this maybe we will build a relationship together. if you cannot or will not understand this then you are not worth my time...next! | |
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mizbex
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Joined: 9/8/2006
Msg: 210 | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 5:43:20 PM | Mizbex, you make good point after good point.
It's sad that people can't step back from themselves occasionally to examine their behaviors and make changes where changes are due. Men are slowly becoming tired of that whole idea where they should pay. These women are going to eventually be FORCED to look at their behaviors when men refuse to date them--picking the more independant women over the old-fashioned ones--and that way of thinking will become the minority view.
CoolPeach--YOU also benefit from working. Don't forget that because it's very important. Being self-reliant is something to be proud of for many reasons, like the ones you already stated, but don't downplay how beneficial it is for YOU personally.
rpburnusa: man, you're out of your mind. You don't even know me to evaluate my dating or love life, so don't be a fool and try. Don't forget you are on the same site I am. And you have no right to criticize my personality. Yours is an atrocity. You just seem like a very controlling man. I fear for the women who date you. You sound like a predator more and more every time you post.
Ladies, look out!
(by the way--I don't care what you think) ;) | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 6:00:32 PM | With the first or second dates, I still think it's mostly attitude. A sense of entitlement just alienates people. Most men don't have a problem with paying and actually will treat someone they like or care about, but if your posture and attitude screams "you better pay if you respect me" it just turns off the other person for generousity. All you're doing is bringing it to their attention to rethink the deal and question why it IS that way.
If most women would just be prepared to pay for at least their share and STOP expecting men to take them out for full dinners before they knew them better everyone would be happier.
And for both men AND women - you'll find out just as much about a person's financial habits over a half hour $5 coffee as you would with a $200 dinner check. If you continue to try to figure out a complete stranger over an expensive meal, you're sort of asking to toss your money into a fireplace. Save the really nice long good meals for the person you eventually get to know, start dating and actually like. | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 6:58:24 PM |
rpburnusa: man, you're out of your mind. You don't even know me to evaluate my dating or love life, so don't be a fool and try. Don't forget you are on the same site I am. And you have no right to criticize my personality. Yours is an atrocity. You just seem like a very controlling man. I fear for the women who date you. You sound like a predator more and more every time you post.
Ladies, look out!
(by the way--I don't care what you think) ;)
Notice how many of these type women sound like a broken record? "You must be controling, you are a predator, you are this, you are that," etc. What makes you think I don't have a right to critizize you? You are not special. The world does not revolve around you. Get over it. You do not even have the courage to show your face (probably a good thing, few extra pounds are we? Unattractive?). Whenever something doesn't go your way, you can only respond with one of your tired, overused invectives. Where do you get that I am controling? LOL! Or a predator? LOL! | |
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zooom
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Joined: 10/27/2006
Msg: 214 | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/3/2006 10:16:27 PM | Do I have to explain everything to you? If you don't get it by now, just forget it. Your mind is made up, & you're getting a payoff to "act" the same way, just like your parents did. Gender roles are the hardest thing for people to be honest & conscious about. If you want the perfect relationship, then be the perfect person, & not a game-player. And you say you're tired of game-players, guys who are married, who lie, or who treat you badly? What comes around, goes around. If one's self-esteem & self-image is dependent on what other people do for or to you, then, guess what, you are willing to be the victim & are essentially fearful to put down your facade, your mask. Grow up. Put down the distractions of your choice - drugs, religion, work, busy-ness, TV, reading, being mental, judging others/etc., being compulsively nice, addictive exercising, being superficial, incessant talking, hiding out with only your "safe" & enabling "friends", & get a life. Whining, ****ing, blaming, accusing & being the "loser" is NOT really much fun & is definately NOT attactive. Expectations are a killer, just like hiding in one's "head", ie. the Ego. Do you ever feel like you've lost yourself (or never really got to know your true self)? Well then maybe role-playing & having unconscious entanglements/enmeshments are all that can be hoped for, the only thing you know & the only thing you can do. Blessings  | |
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mizbex
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Joined: 9/8/2006
Msg: 217 | |
| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/4/2006 11:34:51 AM | | Michelle, thank you. Men are not the only ones who are tired of the whole idea of who should pay. Honestly, the women out there who STILL expect the man to do the asking, the paying, and make all the effort give the woman who work hard and are confident in themselves a bad name. I don't know how many dates I have been on where the man talks about this, women taking advantage of men. Frankly, I am not one of those women and I do not want to spend my evenings hearing about those women and then I offer to pay, no dice. In my opinion, a woman my age should be self sufficient and not be looking for what a man can give her or do for her. She should be looking for a partner who is interested in building a relationship based on mutial respect, honesty and trust which are commodities that are far more valuable than money. | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/4/2006 12:17:28 PM | alexandria_gal...
The only times a woman asked me out for a first date, she expected me to furnish desert! Not a single one had a good personality.
If she invites me for a meal at her place, or rents a movie at home, I'm appreciative.
The good 'uns try to give and take.
The gold diggers disgust me. I can smell one from eyeview distance. Beauty sure isn't everything. Pitty the poor fools that think men should pay for gaudy-glitzy beauty's presence. | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/4/2006 1:07:23 PM | Ok Well Chris, believe it or not there are men out there, who b/c offended if a woman attempts to pay the bill or contribute to it....
Also there are still men out there who will gracefully excuse themselves when the bill arrives...LOL and go to the bathroom expecting the woman to take care of the bill.
Women don't expect men to pay for everything...but it should be discussed at some level before going out, if you want to pay for everything let her know...most women myself included will not pay for the dinner bill, but I will leave the tip, pay for the parking or the drinks afterward...that is if he asked me out...Now if I ask someone out, I pay and I expect them to at least offer to pay for something..b/c we all know its not cheap to go out especially if we have babysitters etc. to pay for just to get out of the house....
Good Luck
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/4/2006 1:47:41 PM | To all
I have read everything on here. let me say to you all.
I was married for 22 years. In that time I bought and paid for everything, if we went out, if we stayed in, mortgage, food, wine, anything. I even bought my wife an ex-racing horse, a Landrover Discovery, cars, dinners out, theatre, parties and holidays. It was my outward going sign of love, care, consideration and affection. Anything that would help my wife be happy, to make our children happy and contented.
Surely, anything in return to me, my children ( for all you people out there ) would be seen as a thought of, an act of, showing, kindness, love, consideration, as I have done …. Yes,, you all understand…. If only my other half had bought me even a Coca-Cola, I would have been happy.
The only time my wife paid for anything was,, 23 years later,, was when,, the night before she went into hospital for an operation, cause she was frighten that she might die, and she didn't want to be thought of as mean, paid for dinner at our local pub. She survived, then divorced her.
Now I am looking for a real real person,a Lady. | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/5/2006 12:01:55 AM | I am single because my husband died, and yes he thought I was a treasure. I am single still because I have not found anyone I would want to spend the rest of my life with.
I had equal rights, we shared a lot of things that couples do. In fact I paid his way to fishing trips with the guys plenty of times. I worked my 40 hr. week, cooked dinner every night, did all the housework and part of his so he could enjoy some space time with his friends. He was a good man, and I know that somewhere out there there is another one who
doesn't mind sharing. As far as sex is concerned sounds like you another partner or some how to lessons. The # thing was taken from things said in other posts. I certainly do not hate or dislike men. I was more or less joking about what a couple of posters had to say.
Anyway, whenever a you break off or take a break from a woman, she has a new guy between her legs within a week anyway. Most women now will sleep with anything and that includes animals or whatever they can get to feed that thing between their legs. So you might as well allow them to carry some financial burden on dates.
That is the most disgusting thing I have seen and a lie. Decent women do not do anything of the sort. What are you taking out hookers or sluts or both ? You have insulted every decent woman on here and I think you should apologize. There are a lot of nice ladies on here just giving their opinion. They did not ask for some player cheapskate,jerk to insult them. With your attitude even at my age I wouldn't give you the time of day.
Some women are losers and are very cheap (FINANICALLY and sexually lol)
The same goes for men. 95% of you are looking for sex whether you are married or single.
And are ****ing about buying a little food. Well maybe the losers ought to make you pay
for what they supply.  | |
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| women and why they think men should buy everything ????
Posted: 11/5/2006 9:10:21 PM | | The girl wants to know that she's worth the effort. If you had a really bad crush on a girl, you would be willing to put in the effort, right? If you're not willing, then it seems like you are not all that into her. I usually offer to pay after the first few dates, but if the guy isn't willing to pay the bill on the first date he comes across as cheap. | |
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