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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 4/29/2008 5:58:52 AM | I believe a man is made so that he can easily reproduce so that if there is a limited number of men available he can adapt. Since the male sperm is weaker and the male fetus is weaker there are more women in the world and if for some reason the male population would diminish, there would be many women to reproduce from him and replenish.
1. If you get a woman who is 22 and a man who is 22. the man will last about 10 minutes and the woman is just getting started...why do you think that is?
2. A man must get an erection to have intercourse and must wait after he has it to begin again usually...a woman can be receptive when she is sleeping....
3. Women are beautiful like a flower and smell sweet and soft but men are sometimes not so appealing or pleasant to smell so it makes sence that women are to attract more mates...
I believe in a noncivilized and nonchristian or cultural society, the women would be the ones most likely to need more than one mate for contentment.
Men are made to be more dominanat to fight with the other men who compete for their female so that the stronger will mate and the species will live on.
4. Man was not made to dominate or he would have been the one who offered the "apple" in the garden. Satan knew who to go to and he knew if he pursuaded the woman, the man would follow her lead.
5. Man was made first after the animals and it makes sence he would be the most like them. woman was created from a rib on his side..not a toe or a hair to be below him or over him...but by his side.
my true opinion is we are not apes and we are not animals and we should live love and think on a more intellectual level to see eachother as equal but diffeent...
However, the man is the strongest and the woman is the softest. Men are happier when they feel like they rule the jungle and conquer. it doesnt hurt to let a man feel like or think that he is the boss.....lol
I also feel that if a man is smart and leads wisely, and a woman is able to trust him and respects him...there is not a woman alive who would not worship the ground he walks on and eagerly follow him blindly. Unfortunately men like this are few and far in between and many woman must pick up the slack. this makes life harder on a woman because she should be able to have and raise children, and do her duty as a woman, and rest assured he is doing his also, as a provider and protector. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 11:09:18 AM | David Lewis - I said he can't take away MY TURN. His turn is his turn but he can't have MY TURN as well. That's what the OBEY type guys want. They want their turn and MY TURN too. Greedy SOB's. Do you really need it spelled out to you.
What's up with you?
I also don't like men that don't listen, can't read, twist others words and are generally comabtive instead of being honest in their debate. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 2:29:12 PM |
4. Man was not made to dominate or he would have been the one who offered the "apple" in the garden. Satan knew who to go to and he knew if he pursuaded the woman, the man would follow her lead. I think we can say Satin went to the weakest one, yes the woman. The man did follow because he trusted her and women have been getting men in trouble ever since.
David Lewis - I said he can't take away MY TURN. His turn is his turn but he can't have MY TURN as well. That's what the OBEY type guys want. They want their turn and MY TURN too. Greedy SOB's. Do you really need it spelled out to you.
What's up with you?
I also don't like men that don't listen, can't read, twist others words and are generally comabtive instead of being honest in their debate.
Maybe you should follow your own advice. He simply said the stronger person "can TAKE", when you forcfully take you don't need the permission of the one you're taking it from.
He also later said you could easily find weak men or because you have a nice bod, men that will put up with your [insert your own expletive here]. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 4:52:35 PM | Likethewind wrote:
I agree with StrangerInTheHouse that this does resemble a master/slave relationship. But I also agree that power dynamics have always existed in any relationship. The one who makes the most money makes the rules. Unfortunate, but true. But isn't it ironic that the proponents of the submissive wife role also vehemently oppose women working for pay. Not only do they find a strong, independent woman threatening, they would find such a woman less controllable. Her income would be considered a bargainning chip in the marriage. Her husband would be more inclined to see her as an equal partner. Someone just as important as he is. Unfortunately, in the past, women had to rely on sex as a bargainning chip in their marriages. Not only was that demeaning to the wife, but also very insulting to the man too. Most men know when they are being manipulated. I believe that this sort of tactics diminished women in the eyes of their husbands as well. Not only do the husbands begin to resent them, they begin to view them as "domestic whores." Sad, but true. That is what a traditional wife was: just a glorified whore. A domestic whore; one who exchanges sexual and domestic services for financial support and sustainance. Simple as that.
But there is a better way. I believe that marriages based on true equality would be ideal for everyone, including society. If both partners focused on meeting EACHOTHER'S NEEDS rather than just the wife meeting her husband's needs alone, I think everyone would be much happier. Well, most people any way.
In my mind, the ideal situation would be to have a meritocratic decision making process, as you say...
But, as you also say, the inequalities of the outside world DO interpose themselves on the institution of marriage, and I would add that to also be true upon ANY relationship in society; whether it's parent/child, siblings, whatever.
Even in casual friendships: you might have made mudpies down in the creek when you were five or six with a kid whose parents owned the chocolate factory in town, but at a certain point, people seperate into groups where the kids whose parents have pools and new cars go with one group and if you live in an apartment or don't have those things; you're with another group.
I also think that the degree of inequality between marriage partners is almost always directly reciprocal to the amount of income they bring in or the relative economic assets possessed seperately by them.
It's always been that way.
The more unequal the income levels in the society become, the greater the people tend to be ordered by those different levels.
Since women are earning as much or more than men in many relationships, that "obey" stuff might be more applicable to the one with the lesser means, rather than the male... or just not useful at all, as the mates tend to do what they each think is right and not ask, necessarily... | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 5:14:20 PM | | I really don't think money = power AUTOMATICALLY. It depends on people's attitudes towards it. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 5:29:00 PM | Fixitfred - obviously rationale is not your forte. I see you have company in your delusion so at least you won't be lonely. Good luck with that.
Oh and by the way - the bible was written by men for men and like many greedy men you seem to like it. When you find many women are now finally wise to that don't come whining back here that you can't keep a woman. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:19:37 PM | | outdated wording which IMO implies ownership. i don't want my partner to "obey" me or for him to expect me to "obey" him. if i ever get married, i would opt for a more modern context to my vows. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:20:20 PM |
I really don't think money = power AUTOMATICALLY. It depends on people's attitudes towards it. I don't know where you live but unless you moved into the Unabombers old place Money can and does buy you power.
Fixitfred - obviously rationale is not your forte On these POF forums I agree with you. I would feel the same way in an insane asylum.
I see you have company in your delusion so at least you won't be lonely. I wish I could say the same about you but I'm sure you have them lining up to be with you but with an attitude like that you will constantly be looking for someone that understands you and treats like you feel you need to be treated because I don't think he exists anywhere.
Good luck with that. Thanks, you too. Oh you were being sarcastic, I should have realized but I wasn't.
Oh and by the way - the bible was written by men for men Strange opinion but you're entitled to it.
and like many greedy men you seem to like it. This tells me you never read or really don't understand what's in there.
When you find many women are now finally wise to that don't come whining back here that you can't keep a woman. I really wish we could compare track records on keeping anybody. I'm sure I would have you beat badly. POF is the woman's whine and dine area. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/3/2008 6:29:24 PM |
I don't know where you live but unless you moved into the Unabombers old place Money can buy you power.
I was speaking within the context of a relationship Fred. Previous posters made the point that the one with less income is in a one-down position and has less power within a relationship. Given how materialistic many people are these days, it certainly can be that way... however I truly don't believe it is as automatic and rigid as other posters have implied.
Power within a relationship is not directly tied to "obey" in the biblical sense. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 8:29:34 AM | “Obey” is used in the Christian ceremony and the word is biblically based. So, if a woman really thinks and really believes:
the bible was written by men for men and like many greedy men you seem to like it.
Then, it’s hard to see how “Obey” would fit into her life in the way the word was intended. The word as Christians’ have traditionally used it in a marriage ceremony is always preceded by “love” and “honor.” The connection and selection of all of those three words work together like in the “Father”, “Son,” and “Holy Spirit.”
It has almost exclusively been the Christian community that changed much of the world’s view and treatment of women and children to the highest status woman and children have ever known in history. It was not woman that voted back in the early 20th century to allow women to vote; it was the white, Christian, male majority.
Statements that portray the Bible as something that somehow has enslaved women are historically incorrect and show a lack of reality and worldly knowledge. It should be noted that the freedom that is afforded you to make such misstatements were granted you by those same good people you claim want to enslave you. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 8:32:52 AM | Funny, I certainly wouldn't expect my wife to be to utter anything remotely close to OBEY. But if she makes it "perfectly clear" to me that those words will in no way, shape or form be there, I'll leave her standing at the altar and go fishing.
If she says it because she's a traditionalist, that's ok. Only a retard would hold that up as a tool. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 8:55:51 AM | cheryl000, Your "opinion" is exactly why women don't rule the world. lol
1. Conserving energy to kill yet another rival.
2. So the cave man can force it on a clan member.
3. Women smell better so the lion will want to eat her first. It's all about spreading the seed baby. Not contentment. See#2
4. Eve offered the apple to adam for protection from satan.
5. And was given dominion over them! "...but by his side." I think in the original greek it says "...but a thorn IN his side."
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 9:06:28 AM | "It was not woman that voted back in the early 20th century to allow women to vote;"
How could women vote to have the vote when they didn't have the vote in the first place? You're not making sense. Am I supposed to be grateful that some men agreed to give me MY TURN - MY VOICE. Ok great. About time. They stole it in the first place. It was simply being returned that's all.
I think people believe what they want to believe. Debate is suppposed to expose that - to expose it's weaknesses.
"It has almost exclusively been the Christian community that changed much of the world’s view and treatment of women and children to the highest status woman and children have ever known in history." LOL
Actually, before Christianity, in Europe (where I am from) women had status in society (a voice) and property. Then christians came along and took our voice, our status, education, medicine and most importanly our property and independence away from women. Three hundred years of whitch burning. You are deluded thinking a collection of books that paints women as the cause of mans downfall as good for women. Brainwashing is more like it. Don't make excuses and twist it. It is what it is.
Name 5 great women in the bible. Now name five disgraced women. I bet it's easier to do the second list than the first unless you know the books very well.
Have you read the gnostic texts. The book of Mary paints quite a different picture that Jesus favoured her over the apostles and they deeply resented her for it. But that's another thread.
Before you go quoting the bible at me - take alook around at the world and see what it's really done to women. And take a history lesson on the suffragettes while you are at it.
If you want a thread about the effect of religion on women post it in the religion forum. That is where this thread belongs anyway as the OBEY part does come from the bible. If people can't make the connection between the bible and the subjugation and degradation of women then they really can't be helped.
Anyway, like I've said somewhere else on these forums, the horse has already bolted. You can shut the gate, curse and swear, jump up and down and have an apoplectic fit but it's too late and will have no effect. You are powerless to control her. The filly has found her freedom and you can't catch her. In case you haven't noticed - she doesn't care that you are upset that you have lost control either. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 9:10:54 AM | If you love and honor someone then you dont hurt them and your not mean to them ... You care about them and will be true and luving and kind to them ... with that said I dont have a problem at all with the word obey ... Now days the word means sit , fetch , ush and lay ... cause ppl forget all about the love and honor ...
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 9:16:35 AM | Sam spade -
You contradicted yourself. You say youdon't expect her to say obey in the vows but you'd leave her at the alter if she won't. Huh?
I'd say in that case she dodged a bullet. If she can't see your transparency by that point though she probably needs a serious wakeup call anyway. | |
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| To love, honor, and...OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 9:36:52 AM | Amazing!
This stuff is still an unresolved issue?
I've been around the block a couple of times and the only thing I remember is wringing buckets of water out of the train of my wedding dress at my first wedding; and postponing my second and sending the guests home because my beloved's car broke down on the way to church.
Once we got there, we were too busy trying to fish the wedding ring out of my purse to pay attention to what the preacher was saying, but I'm sure it was proper and edifying for some--and possibly offensive to others.
Didn't matter. In both instances, we went home and pretty much continued being WHO we were, not what we said, because this is what we had accepted about ourselves and our relationship for as long for as long as the relationship(s) was in force.
It's the most you can ask of another human being. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 10:19:18 AM |
You contradicted yourself. You say youdon't expect her to say obey in the vows but you'd leave her at the alter if she won't. Huh?
I'd say in that case she dodged a bullet. If she can't see your transparency by that point though she probably needs a serious wakeup call anyway. AND HE SINKS THE HOOK!!!!  | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 1:42:48 PM |
You contradicted yourself. You say youdon't expect her to say obey in the vows but you'd leave her at the alter if she won't. Huh? I don't think it was a contradiction and I have the same attitude. I mentioned it earlier. If she doesn't want to obey, I don't want to be with her. I think you misinterpret the idea behind the word. It doesn't mean to do what you're told and obey. It's more of an concept of giving one's self over.
The USA was founded in part with Judeo-Christiian values that has evolved over time along with the world. You're not even old enough to have been oppressed so why be so bitter? Perhaps you left the old country because of that but it wasn't me that opressed you. Women have equal rights and protection under the law.
Lets look at Budism and it's influence on far eastern countries where women follow a few steps behind the man or good ole' Islam where woman have to cover up can't go to school and get beaten and killed for not OBEYING the man. Then we come to America (the greatest country in the world) Where woman have legal protection and can do everything a man can do except come up with logical arguements. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 4:32:45 PM |
Actually, before Christianity, in Europe (where I am from) women had status in society (a voice) and property. Then christians came along and took our voice, our status, education, medicine and most importanly our property and independence away from women.
I take it that you are originally from either the Soviet Union or one of their satellites. I better understand your bitterness towards Christians with what you believe to be true. My guess is that it was not Christianity but capitalism that created the shake up of your prior homeland economy. Any overhaul of an economy from one system to another has got to really hurt especially when there are such drastic differences in the two systems.
The vast majority of the English speaking world is Christian and that is especially true of North America. It’s not possible to segregate everything that may touch on Christianity just to the religious threads. “Love, honor, and obey” is from a traditional Christian wedding vow so it is impossible to understand it without understanding the Christian context of why those words were chosen and what they mean. Out of context “obey” does sound like something that no sane woman would agree to because it has lost its meaning. Christianity very much elevated that status of woman over Judaism and you are quite right in noting that the Disciples were jealous of Mary Magdalene because they could not understand how Jesus could treat a mere woman on an equal basis with men. That was unheard of at the time. I would never expect a non Christian to use the word "obey" in their wedding vows.
I usually avoid posting long attachments but I am going to this time to show the context of how “obey” is used in a traditional Christian wedding. Please note that “clergy” always talk a lot given the opportunity. 
Introductory Remarks
We learn from the inspired record that the Lord Jesus honored the marriage ceremony with His presence working there the beginning of His miracles. These miracles indicate that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, the Sovereign and the Creator of the universe, and the wedding ceremony was the first used to demonstrate this glorious fact.
His purpose on earth was to "seek and to save that which was lost," As the scriptures declare, "God commended His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." The one who sanctifies the marriage union is the Savior of the universe. And the scripture says, "neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." And therefore His invitation to all who witness the wedding ceremony is to "come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.", "And Him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out."
The Bible, which is the Word of God declares marriage to be honorable. It was ordained of God in the time of man's innocency, before he had sinned against the Lord. Since marriage has always been a divine institution, it is to be entered into soberly and discreetly, as in His sight.
God Himself united the first members of human family, which fact alone should abolish all light and frivolous views of marriage. The bridegroom and bride are partners in life, each forsaking mother and father to cleave unto the other. They share a common name, a united household, a common experience, and a love which blesses and transcends all the cares and trials of life. The mathematics of love--Add and multiply joys while subtracting and dividing the sorrows.
___________ and ___________ You now have common interests and occupations. You've become co-workers for common ends. You hold property and possessions in common, and you have essentially one history and one destiny. Inscribed in the Word of God is the counsel you will need for this mutual and blessed relationship. The vows are to be broken only by death.
In token of having chosen each other as partners for life, you may now join your right hands.
Wedding Vows
Pastor to Groom -- Do you, ___________, take ___________ whom you hold by the right hand to be your lawful and wedded wife?
Groom -- I do.
Pastor to Groom -- Do you promise to love, to cherish, to honor to protect, forsaking all others, in sickness as well as in health. In adversity as well as in prosperity. For better or for worse, and to cleave only to her so long as you both shall live?
Groom -- I do.
Pastor to Bride -- Do you, ___________, take ___________ to be your lawful and wedded husband?
Bride -- I do.
Pastor to Bride -- Do you promise to love, to cherish, to honor, to obey, forsaking all others, in sickness as well as in health, in adversity as well as in prosperity, for better or for worse, and to cleave only to him so long as you both shall live?
Bride -- I do.
Giving away of Bride
Pastor -- Who giveth ___________ to be married to ___________ ?
Bride's Father -- Her mother and I.
Ring Vows
Pastor to Groom -- ___________, What token do you give to show that you will faithfully perform these vows?
Groom -- A ring.
Pastor -- The circle which forms this ring is the emblem of eternity, and the beautiful metal out of which it is wrought is the type of that which is least tarnished and most enduring. It is to show how lasting and imperishable, the faith now mutually pledged. You will place this ring on ___________ 's finger and repeat after me . . . "WITH THIS RING . . . I PLEDGE MYSELF TO THEE . . . WITH ALL THE AFFECTIONS OF MY HEART . . . SO LONG AS WE BOTH SHALL LIVE."
Pastor to Bride -- And, ___________, what token do you give to show that you will faithfully perform these vows?
Bride -- A ring.
Pastor -- Please place your ring on your Groom's finger and repeat after me. "WITH THIS RING I PLEDGE MYSELF TO THEE . . . WITH ALL THE AFFECTIONS OF MY HEART..SO LONG AS WE BOTH SHALL LIVE."
Prayer
Let us unite in Prayer. We thank Thee, heavenly Father, for this home that is now called into existence, and we ask Thy blessings upon ___________ and ___________ all the days of their lives. That as unite into one family, they might glorify thee. That they might serve Thee acceptably, and that their lives together, might present the glorious truth of God's Word--the union of Christ and the Church. Bless them to this end, for we ask it in the name of the Kind of Kings and Lord of Lords, even Jesus Christ our Savior, Amen.
Pronouncement
The scripture declares love is forbearing and kind; love knows no jealously, love does not brag, is not conceited. She is not unmannerly, nor selfish, nor irritable, nor mindful of wrongs. She does not rejoice in injustice, but joyfully sides with the truth. She can overlook faults. She is full of trust; full of hope; full of endurance. Love never fails.
Having heard the pledges of your affection, and the vows of your fidelity, I do therefore by virtue of the authority invested in me by the laws of the State of ___________, before God, whose grace to you is unmeasured, and before these witnesses, pronounce you husband and wife, and what God hath joined together, let no man put assunder.
Benediction
Embrace
Presentation of Bride and Groom
Ladies and Gentlemen; May I present to you Mr. and Mrs. _______________.
Recessional
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 6:53:12 PM | OMG - how wrong you are. I was educated in England and my family have been in Canada since the early 1800's. I went to bible school 5 hours a week most of my childhood. I know the bible well so please don't assume I need you to preach to me. I also read it myself a lot. What was said in it was said and now that it's not politically correct, it can't be taken back or twisted with excuses about what was really meant. OBEY means OBEY. Quit sugar coating it so it'll go down easier. Commit to what you mean or let it go.
I am blunt but I could be a lot harder with you than I have been - I have no inclination to be gentle with those that think like you - you have none of being that way to me for sure. England has had very strong women leaders unlike North America which has always been led by a white male (and not for much longer by the looks of it - bloody hilarious - I am laughing so hard).
You are mistaking bitterness for my refusal to be bowed (by your attempt to head trip me into agreeing with you - oh wow did I dare say that out loud - what an insolent woman I am - how dare I talk to you men like that - I should know my place, I should defer to your superior intellect (giggle)).
FYI
BOWED
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English bugan; akin to Old High German biogan to bend, Sanskrit bhujati he bends
Date: before 12th century
intransitive verb1: to cease from competition or resistance : submit, yield
; also :
to suffer defeat
2: to bend the head, body, or knee in reverence, submission, or shame
3: to incline the head or body in salutation or assent or to acknowledge applause
2: to incline (as the head) especially in respect or submission
3: to crush with a heavy burden
4 a: to express by bowing | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/4/2008 7:31:29 PM | Some men who posted on here, notwithstanding..
Every man I have ever known ( including my ex husband) who wanted "obey" in the vows? Wanted a submissive servant...not an equal partner...they also claimed ahead of time it didn't really mean obey, but all kinds of other sugarcoating...it still boiled down to..they felt they were superior due to being male, and thought no women were capable of intelligent thought, decisions or behavior..and had to be led ( controlled) so they did the right things.
It seems to me...if "obey" in the vows, doesn't mean "obey"..why does it need to be in there then? Use another word..that means something else..like what they claim it really means.
IMO, no one needs to obey anyone, partnerships are partnerships...decisions are made jointly...and giving someone that kind of power is asking for abuse...I know, I did it. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 5/5/2008 3:21:53 AM | I can say that I promise to love someone. I can say I can promise to honor someone. I could never in a million years say that I promise to obey someone. I give commands to my doggie. I do not give commands to people and I do not take commands from people. A marriage is an equal relationship. A man does not obey a woman and a woman does not obey a man.
I obey fashion rules and that is it. I do not obey a person. If someone wants someone to obey them, they need a puppy and not a mate.
~Carrie | |
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TLC_
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Joined: 1/26/2008
Msg: 325 | |
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