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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/6/2008 9:00:10 PM | I haven't read the full 16 pages of this thread...just a few pages here and there and I'm astounded that there are still so many men who believe their women should "obey" them. And I'm even more astounded that there are women who have no problem with this concept.
First of all let's not confuse the issue and assign different and gentler meanings to the word obey. It means:
1. To carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of.
2. To carry out or comply with (a command, for example).
As an intelligent adult, I don't think there is any room in a successful relationship for either partner to obey the other. A relationship is an equal partnership where each partner should love, honor and respect the other. This includes trust and the ability to defer to each others' judgment when deciding what is right for both parties as a family unit. That includes thoughtfulness and selflessness and loving and caring about the other person enough to compromise in order to keep them happy. It also includes respecting yourself and your desires and making sure that you are happy within that partnership. If you make your own and each others' happiness a priority there is no reason for one party to to be in command while the other person obeys.
If I ever got married, I would never include the word obey in my marriage vows because I would never be able to just obey my partner. I'd never marry a man who would command me or allow me to command him. I believe marriage vows are sacred so I'd make sure that I would only make a vow I have every intention of keeping. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/6/2008 9:12:33 PM |
If the husband understands full well how traumatic the move
would be for his wife, yet decides economic security is more
important to his family, and she doesn't agree, then the obedience
clause would spring into effect.
If the wife fully understands the economic issue, but she still wants to stay as well as the kids . Then you'd stay. If times got tough, maybe the moving issue would be revisited.It's nice to have a long term plan, but it's better to be happy while you can really enjoy it. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/7/2008 12:13:18 AM | re:OP
not really, in the context of the weddong vow, obeying is cooperation in it's most intense, extreme loving form | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/7/2008 2:35:02 PM |
jslade58 wrote: If the wife fully understands the economic issue,
but she still wants to stay as well as the kids. Then you'd stay.
You're saying in this case, if the husband and wife can't agree,
then the husband should obey his wife. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/7/2008 3:31:53 PM |
You're saying in this case, if the husband and wife can't agree,
then the husband should obey his wife.
Don't forget, i said the kids too. Their thoughts also should carry at least SOME weight in the discussion. What good is financial security for the family if YOU are living in one place and the rest of the family is living somewhere else ? In other words, if you moved them away to a place that they did not want to go, it could turn out that the wife will go back to where she wants to be. So ya, if the rest of the family values happiness now over financial security(which to me simply means the monetary wherewithal to buy more stuff right now);i would do what is most important for the family. There is more to life than accumulating stuff.
However, i would also expect that i would not hear even the first peep from any of them about not being able to afford x,y,or z. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/8/2008 8:57:23 AM |
jslade58 wrote: Don't forget, i said the kids too.
Their thoughts also should carry at least SOME weight
in the discussion. What good is financial security for
the family if YOU are living in one place and the rest
of the family is living somewhere else ?
I agree with the first half of your reasoning.
The well being of your children must be carefully considered.
But I don't agree that you (the parent) should ever obey them.
Many times it's possible to maximize people's long term happiness
by making them do things they initially don't want to do.
jslade58 wrote: In other words, if you moved them away to a place
that they did not want to go, it could turn out that the wife will go
back to where she wants to be.
You're right, and since the husband has made her worse off,
she has the right to terminate the partnership on the grounds
of incompetent leadership. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/8/2008 7:09:58 PM | | hi... after studying the bible I saw that men are to uplift and love their wife, like a delicate flower it says and she feeling so loved and cared for will freely submit all to him... come to think of it, I think all good women would do anything for the man who loves them with all their heart and soul.... blessings, warmly Mona | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/16/2008 4:46:15 PM | | A man who is not a natural leader should look for an equal partner. A woman who likes the take charge type probably enjoys obeying to some extent. As for cherish, can you really cherish someone who belches in public, tells the waitress she's beautiful, or talks to you while he sits on the throne? Cherish is more difficult. A woman is going to react to the man and either cherish and/or obey if she believes in him. Once the trust is broken,only a fool follows the same path twice. | |
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NateC
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Joined: 4/10/2006
Msg: 409 | |
| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/16/2008 8:11:49 PM | | Screw obeying, obeying implies one-sidedness and relationships need to be anything but to work and last. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 11/17/2008 10:14:41 AM | | Let us not forget the " Honor" part of these sacred vows either!!!!! Sometimes i wonder, if people know what that word actually means.!! On the Obey... i personally feel that word should be changed, to become politically correct with these times, and the new word should be Respect. It sounds good with the love, honor part.....(.respect) | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/11/2009 6:40:55 PM |
The problem some people have is that in some faiths only the woman says it.
Well of course only the woman says it. The man is the head of the household; the man doesn't obey the woman.
1Co 11:8-9 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/11/2009 7:28:08 PM | Obey? Waddya kidding? That implies that there is a parent/child relationship. No way would I want to be the parent OR the child in an adult relationship.
There is no obey. There is only mutual decisions and if there can't be that, then it might take some compromising.
I understand that things such as moving for a better job can be a problem if one spouse doesn't want to move. I was in that situation when I was first married and my then husband had an opportunity in a southern state. I didn't want to move but we agreed to give it three years. We ended up being there 8 years before moving back north but we finally lived in an area we both love.
(By the way, our divorce didn't have anything to do with the moves.) | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/14/2009 8:21:23 PM |
starstuff942 wrote: There is no obey. There is only mutual
decisions and if there can't be that, then it might take some
compromising.
This is a common misconception. Obedience doesn't make
compromise less desirable. The issue of obedience arises
in cases where compromise is impossible. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/15/2009 7:19:12 AM |
Well of course only the woman says it. The man is the head of the household; the man doesn't obey the woman.
1Co 11:8-9 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Well, we can quote scripture to support whatever our personal views are..or we can interpret it however it works best for us...besides, not being fundamental or a literalist, I go with the intent , being as it was written by men, who inspired by God or not, had their own ideas about what was a "truth", and funny how most of it favors men and their dominance? And relegates women to brainless possessions...hmmmm...lol...
Obey implies authority...the ony true authority over me ( besides my boss) is God..men are not superior in intellect, wisdom or anything else by virtue of their gender..and even if they were...a marriage is joint venture, not a master/slave relationship..I'm willing to listen to valid logic to support someone's opinion...but, no way will I blindly obey anyone..male or female..kind of neuters the concept of free will, doesn't it? A very important tenet of God's....and I also am willing to compromise for the good of one over the other...and if I truly believe what they are saying is the best thing for both...fine...but, no one will control or dismiss me..for any reason, religious or otherwise.. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/15/2009 8:34:47 AM |
Well of course only the woman says it. The man is the head of the household; the man doesn't obey the woman.
1Co 11:8-9 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Oh really? So YOU believe that we should do and/or obey what's written in the bible huh??
Do you also believe we should stone a rape victim to death? And if not, WHY not? After all, it's written in the bible. Here, read this...
"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife." (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
How about murdering your own children if gawd forbids, they should ever curse you? No??? Well...WHY not? It says so right here...
"All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense." (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Or what about this one? If nothing else, it sure would trim the POF population down in a hurry...don't you think??
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Here's one I'm particularly fond of...
"But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
And please, there's no need pointing out that some of those lovely quotes come from the old testament - there is only ONE god according to the bible and the bible IS the word of god.
Besides, jesus, the holy spirit and god him/her/itself are ONE according to the MOST basic tenets of christianity, the trinity. I'm an ex christian/catholic and I KNOW my bible very well.
So...which one of those ^^^ quotes do you and other christians (I say christians because they are the ones who most often insists on cherry picking what THEY want out of the bible while REJECTING what they don't don't want in MY opinion) think we should dismiss as NOT being the word of god as opposed to say....oh I don't know...what you quoted up there that men were the head of the household???
Why is YOUR quote valid and not THOSE quotes??
Gah.
Hypocrisy and a misogynistic agenda (amongst others), that's WHY, in not only my opinion this time, but written in plain black and white for the WHOLE world to see.
But please, do enjoy your last days as the the head of the household, as those days are quickly coming to an end IMO. The bible is now available to MOST everyone, and so is education and knowledge available to MOST people via books, libraries and the Internet....it's only a matter of time before the bible (and other "holy" books) is exposed for what they are. In MY opinion of course, but an opinion that is shared by an ever increasing number of people (thank you gawd)
Love honour and obey?
Over my dead body (and only after I'm done laughing:)
IMHO
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/16/2009 8:13:55 PM |
zangie wrote: Obey implies authority...the ony true
authority over me (besides my boss) is God..
Even the most ardent religious proponent of wifely
submission emphatically declares God's authority
to be superior to the husband's.
zangie wrote: ...no way will I blindly obey anyone...
male or female... kind of neuters the concept of free will,
doesn't it?
No, you might be thinking of enslavement. No one forces
you to place yourself under a husband's authority involuntarily.
If any of the terms are not to your liking, you can reject the
proposal, and in no case is anyone arguing for blind obedience.
For example, if the husband asks his wife to sign a false tax return,
she has no obligation to obey him. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/17/2009 3:36:58 PM | | Any women who would have those words in her wedding ceremony deserves the a$$hole of a man she's getting. Just as bad is "I now pronounce you MAN and wife". No better than MAN and slave. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/21/2009 8:49:51 PM |
No, you might be thinking of enslavement. No one forces
you to place yourself under a husband's authority involuntarily.
If any of the terms are not to your liking, you can reject the
proposal, and in no case is anyone arguing for blind obedience.
For example, if the husband asks his wife to sign a false tax return,
she has no obligation to obey him.
Ok David..if she has choice...why does obey even need to be an option? Obey is an order...
You can get more flies with honey anyway...my gut reaction to anyone telling me what to do or how to behave is to object on principal...now asking or discussing...different thing. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/22/2009 7:45:36 AM | | What SHE said! In bold print, and underlined. It is TIME. It is also why, when I got married that I was not walked down the isle and given away like so much chattel. I didn't feel like a possession of my father to be passed on as a possession to my husband. THAT should've been his first clue that I couldn't and wouldn't be OWNED by ANYONE! That's what it's all about OWNERSHIP (the father gives the daughter over whom he has all rights to the husband, thereby transferring all her rights to him) and GOVERNANCE (the wife then promises to abide by her new owner's rules by stating that she will OBEY this man as opposed to her father from now on). THAT is the basis of these archaic vows. Slavery was abolished a long time ago, and familial ties does not supercede the law. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/22/2009 12:54:45 PM |
Zangie wrote: Ok, David... if she has choice...
why does obey even need to be an option?
Obey is an order...
Correct, but you have the freedom to either
submit to the man in cases of non-negotiable conflict
OR find a man who doesn't need to be the leader.
Your choice. On the other side of the coin,
if you come under another person's authority
involuntarily, or must obey demands that are
immoral, illegal, ungodly or deviant, that's enslavement.
They own you.
Zangie wrote: You can get more flies with honey anyway...
my gut reaction to anyone telling me what to do or how to
behave is to object on principle...now asking or discussing
...different thing.
That's good. Now you know what kind of man you're looking for. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/23/2009 6:57:37 PM | I'm sorry David...that's BS...I've known men who are quite masculine and alpha..who are neither threatened by a woman with her own mind and opinions, nor need to control anyone..I resent the implication there are only two kinds of men...wimps and controlling freaks...I have no desire to control a man either...equal footing is what I like...masculine does not mean always in charge or leading people around by their nose...and having a mind of my own does not mean I am not feminine either...or a ball buster...
There is a middle ground...that is what I seek... | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/24/2009 7:39:21 AM | | We asked to have that part, "obey" , omitted from our vows. The clergy said she didn't use it as part of the ceremony anyway. | |
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| To love, honor, and... OBEY?!?
Posted: 2/24/2009 9:29:24 AM | | Nope I wouldnt say it.Ever. And thats of course if I decide I actually agree with the whole wedding/marraige concept. Before anyone gets mad Im not saying I have anything agaisnt it I just dont think its for me. But no I wouldnt say it | |
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