| police tasers
Posted: 3/26/2009 5:12:44 PM | Edmonton man who died after Taser shock was killed by excited delirium
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2009/03/26/8898251.html
Do you believe it, or is this questionable?............what makes all these stories odd is that hey defend the taser, but we don't have people dying frome excitable deliriums otherwise.? Wtf? | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 7:34:44 PM | Excited delirium.
An interesting phrase conveniently adopted by the police to explain why the person in custody just got suicided.
hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium
try to remember the last time someone who wasn't tasered died of it???
why aren't addicts dropping dead in emergency rooms all over america from this disorder?
there is a cbc video out there too that's worth watching.
OhSix' | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 8:09:35 PM | From what I understand, I do believe it. The man was out of control. He abused a fellow in a tattoo parlor, then roamed the streets angrily, marched into the pawn shop, and began destroying the place and threatening the staff.
The term "Excited Delirium" was first coined in 1985 by a doctor in Miami Florida who noticed a sudden influx of cases involving bizarre psychotic behaviour. That date is also when crack cocaine started to be actively marketed in Miami
In my opinion, the verdict in this case was justifiable. The man was out of control "brought on by multiple drug toxicity", and police utilized all means of apprehending him without drawing guns. Sadly, the outcome was lethal ... but they tried.
Excitable delirium as a verdict sits well with me. I feel that those who choose to act aggressively, threaten people, carry on like raging animals while under the influence, need to be subdued. I would rather it be done with a taser than a gun. At least with a taser, there is a chance.
OE:
why aren't addicts dropping dead in emergency rooms all over america from this disorder?
They probably ARE! The nurses and doctors are used to phoning the police for help when a drugged out crazy comes into emergency ... I bet on it. I'm sure that emergency rooms are quite familiar with the taser guns..... and likely appreciative.
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Posted: 3/26/2009 8:19:43 PM | | thats mean they are still people ... its so sad that the real bad guys (the drug lords) sit far away from the problems they caused and no one touches them | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 8:31:22 PM | Fox... i would warrant a guess that this thread revival is not based solely on the previously mentioned edmonton incident but likely motivated by the verdict in the Vancouver airport case.
<div class="quote"> They probably ARE! The nurses and doctors are used to phoning the police for help when a drugged out crazy comes into emergency ... I bet on it. I'm sure that emergency rooms are quite familiar with the taser gun.....
Yup couldn't have said it any clearer myself. Nobody drops dead from E.D till the taser shows up.
speaking of taser use in hospital rooms. here is some more responsible use of the device
hxxp://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/05/08/bc-kamloops-man-taser.html
back to the airport...
interestingly enough that man had no substances in his system at the time that would contribute to the psychosis however the reasoning behind his death is again judged to be E.D
So to be clear you are ok with the police hijacking an obsevered behavioral condition specific to those involved with crack and meth and turning it into a cause of death in cases where no drugs are involved. BTW if you wish to look further there is no documentation of E.D causing death in non tasered sufferers.
This is not just an isolated incident. Excited Delirium is the new catchall phrase for Killed in Police Custody.
How about a researched position instead of just an opinion sometime.
OhSix'
edited for some crappy spelling | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 8:53:18 PM | I believe the thread was revived following one talking about police being video taped killing a guy and claiming they were just doing their job surfaced. There was footage of them using tasers on a rather innocent civilian and standing by as he died from the multiple charges. That thread didn't last long here either but the footage is all over the net (you tube and more) and a total retraction of statements and excuses is going on.
New greif  I doubt there is much merit to the term excited delerium as I don't think it even existed until "death by taser" (a far more accurate term) was introduced | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 9:21:26 PM | You are correct grey area as in revival of the thread...I have not read these taser threads before...I suspected there might be some, and tried doing a forum search on the topic, and the search came up empty each time, possibly due to the wording i fed the search engine.....I then made a thread based on the Vancouver incident....Meantime today there was this other incident in the paper, "excited delirium" which struck me as a very odd new term for the cause of death......
All these people who were tasered can't be all delirious, and the taser is being defended over and over, by officials and the manufacturer, what gives?.. | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 9:28:22 PM |
How about a researched position instead of just an opinion sometime.
I was referring to the link offered in message 101.
Perhaps a new thread could have been created to talk about this event, but alas, members wouldn't have it.
Oh Six, have you ever experienced a person freaking out on cocaine? I haven't personally, but I've got friends who have, and have heard enough to believe they are impossible to control. SWAT teams are sometimes called out to end "a problem" with people under the influence of cocaine.
'Excitable Delirium' makes sense to me, since the person committing the violence or crime are so out of control, that a taser must be used to subdue them. I would rather a taser be used then the police sit around for hours on end, waiting for this guy to finish his rampage and complete destroy the pawn shop, and maybe hurt someone.
Oh Six... Perhaps read the posts ahead of mine before making a statement about what "you believe" I am opinionated about ... it had nothing to do with the Vancouver taser situation.
Besides that... The forums are all about opinions, and nine times out of ten, unresearched.... | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 9:49:53 PM |
"Excitable Delirium' makes sense to me, since the person committing the violence or crime are so out of control, that a taser must be used to subdue them
ok so i understand your position that E.D may be a motivating behavior that requires the use of the taser to bring the person under control. How does it translate from that to a "Cause of death" as seen on the certificate of death. please elaborate? How does ones excited state result in death while detained by the authorities without the assistance of 50,000 volts?
unresearched opinions are fine in a thread titled "whats your favorite color" but in reality and big people discussions they are not worth a pinch o shite
OhSix' | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 10:18:10 PM |
How does it translate from that to a "Cause of death" as seen on the certificate of death
If the police have followed protocol, and used their last resort (a taser gun), and the suspect was unphased by the jolt ... what else could they have done?
They shot him with another taser. The guy was destroying the store, threatening the staff with violence! There were witnesses to his behaviour that day, and not just from people in the store.
The cause of death is Excitable Delirium, as the fellow was so out of control, that even a taser hit didn't phase him. He had to be hit again to gain control over him. He had to be taken off the streets, and it's unfortunate that he died, but it's more fortunate that he was stopped that day, because man oh man... what else would he have done that day.... | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 10:31:27 PM | hmm how many tasers at one time are allowed before it becomes a lethal amount?
if there were 4 cops, and one tasered him, what were the other 3 doing? clapping and laughing?where is the proof that the first taser blast didnt affect the man? i saw the testing done by tasers, and if one taser didnt affect the guy, i doubt 3 would have either,
20 000 volts from one taser will affect anyone,regardless of the drugs hes on. i think this was a case of the cops having some fun at a guys expence
were witnesses to his behaviour that day, and not just from people in the store.
and im sure all the witnesses were properly witnessing the event. have you ever been to an area the police were trying to cordone off to extract a felo? they dont allow witnesses or observers
wasnt the guy unable to speak english and disoriented?
i find it amazing that cops always seem to find an "out" for their reckless behaviour
to serve and protect doesnt mean they get to injure and kill
if a police officer kills a man in the line of his duty, (even if the guy they are apprehending isnt a murderer or danger to society) how come he isnt charged with manslaughter until he proves he acted in self defence? | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 10:39:29 PM | ^^ Because they NOT murderers .. merely trying to get a violent nut off the streets to save you and those you care for's asssss.. What if it was your mother or sister working in the store that day?
Springfish... I wish your initial thread was not deleted... Posters are making reference to the B.C. incident, where you had to revive this thread to talk about the Edmonton incident. It's frustrating, and I wish people would stop with the "REDUNDANT" thread deletion! | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 10:45:37 PM | ^^^ i just like to see that vein pop out on your forehead when you get mad haha
short people are cute when they stomp around in a huff
by the way
i doubt the poor guy was in any excited delirium when he was being tsered.id say he was in excrutiating pain and torment
have you ever been tasered? i got hit with a cattle prod once by accident( she said it was an accident at least) and lemme tell you, i wasnt able to get into any excited delirium state for quite some time after that.
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Posted: 3/26/2009 10:53:10 PM | Humm... well then...
She shoulda hit ya again.
And again.
...........and ............ again!
LOL!
*slap*
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Posted: 3/26/2009 11:06:02 PM | trubble. if we look at the evidence from the airport it would appear that the answer is 5. not all at one time but repeatedly by the same officer. ( when questioned as to why he zapped the guy 5 times he said "well cause the 4th one didnt seem to work") what where the other 3 guys doing at the time. um detaining the prisoner so the officer with the taser has time to reload it. gotta wonder if they carry a spare battery pack or maybe they just have a wall jack and had the airport staff run over an extension cord. ( would the lights in the terminal flicker when they zapped him)
The cause of death is Excitable Delirium, as the fellow was so out of control, that even a taser hit didn't phase him. He had to be hit again to gain control over him. He had to be taken off the streets, and it's unfortunate that he died, but it's more fortunate that he was stopped that day, because man oh man... what else would he have done that day....
No.... again the cause of death was electrocution. the justification for electrocution was excited delirium. you have managed to fixate on one incident in 10 where the "victim" has a substance abuse history and was known to police etc etc etc. furthermore FWIW it was not the random act of violence you are trying to make it out to be, there is more history there than you are privy too and IIRC there are also questionable financial transactions that connect the two parties, so again not just a random act of violence. in all likelyhood what he would have done was rough up the debtor possibly broke a bone or 2 and made arrangements to get paid. dead debtors don't pay up.
Try to see the forest for the trees.
I eagerly await some documentation of an excited delirium death where a taser was not involved.
OhSix' | |
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Posted: 3/26/2009 11:50:31 PM | is it just me ,or does it seem odd that 4 heavily armed police officers, equipped with guns, billy clubs, flashlights tasers and HANDCUFFS plus trained in self defence and offence
couldnt even arrest and perhaps tackle an unarmed man and handcuff him? they actually had to taser the guy to death even after they already had him in custody
kinda like that other poor homeless guy in vancouver by the name of hubbard who got shot because he had an exacto knife which he used to cut out postcards from his paintings
they shot the guy dead for absolutely no reason.
if the cops can find our lives so cheap, then i find it perfectly acceptable that the criminal elments in our society also find the cops lives as cheap and do unto them as they do unto us. this is what happens when a group places more value upon themselves then the people they are supposedly sworn and paid to protect
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hSXBJr1-Dzl-khgy-sWYdyVyarfg | |
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Posted: 3/27/2009 12:15:46 AM | Trubble...
Follow the testimony further. the reason the police where concerned for their safety...
He may have been armed with a GASP...are you ready for this... Stapler. and was allegedly trained in its use. buahahahahaha
honestly though the 80 year old man strapped to the bed and tasered multiple times for holding a pocket knife is, on a whole a far stranger story. (with a better outcome as the old guy is still ticking).
OhSix' | |
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Posted: 3/27/2009 1:10:18 AM | Truly is sad when a fellow human being dies.Having said that more might die if the police
were to revert back to shooting all the crazies.The purpose of the tazer is to reduce the number of fatalities and injured if a number of officers were to start shooting indiscriminately. Every Police officer that goes threw training today is subjected to a shot of the tazer as part of their training.As far as I know none have died from this exercise.
ED is caused by the hightned heart rate and the suffocation that fallows from the tazer's
shock, so if some one is already highly agitated or stoned they can have a massive heart
attack and die. Blame the police if you want , they make you speed, buy drugs drink and drive, rape rob and kill , they are to blame because the mentally ill are out on the street.
Do not take any responsibility for your own actions, blame everyone else and the world will be a better place, give your head a shake and stop pounding it against the wall, it will feel better when ya stop...
dustin | |
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Posted: 3/27/2009 1:49:09 AM | If tasers are such a safe thing, why isn't the public carrying them for protection?
Btw when they are tasered as part of their training how many zaps do they receive simultaneously, and how many bodies do they have restraining them?
What about the Vancouver guy, he wasn't on anything, and the officers fabricated their statements?
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Posted: 3/27/2009 2:05:27 AM | Ohsix....i think you and trouble are talking about the Vancouver Airport taser death of the Polish man
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2009/03/25/8883656-cp.html
Apparently there is videos all over the web by a man who witnessed this.
While the "the excited delirium" death is that of the Edmonton man who went awol, and officers tasered him and the one Fox is referring to....here is a link:
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2009/03/27/8901971-sun.html
We are talking about two different men who died one thing in common, they both died after being tasered by police.....Please state which case you are talking about, so readers can follow it...Thanks everyone! | |
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Posted: 3/27/2009 2:12:37 AM | Ok just for the record I will argue for your sake ..
Tazers are weapons. tazers can kill, it has been shown.
If you are in a heightend state of agitation as the man in vancouver was and you are tazerd
you may end up dead from a heart attack or suffocation .
ED.
The police in vancouver were caught on camera yes, and irregardless of the outcome of the court in this case , the decisions made at the time of the incident right or wrong were
not made grievously with intent to harm or kill. If that is a problem you have understanding
then take a trip to south america, africa, china, the middle east , and tell them you do not agree with their policies either.I personally do not understand what you or any one else
who criticizes the police every time they do something and it turns out bad have to gain by whining about it as if it were really any of your business. The police would not be involved at all if nothing ever happend now would they . Police forces are reactive to situations, they do the best they can and if you cannot understand that then join the force for a day and see it yourself.
And for you or any one else the Police are judged at a higher standard by the courts and the goverment for their actions.The difference for the most part is they do not ride around on busses cutting peoples heads off, they don't drive threw your neighborhood shooting at any one they might have a conflict with, they don't sell your kids drugs and watch them die
they don't beat your wife and leave her crying for you to come home and go and arrest them.
They are people just like you and me , they are your brother ,sister, father , uncle, the friend you went to school with ,the kid you played sports with , and they have a calling to serve the community in a capacity to keep it safe , so you can life a meaningful life . | |
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Posted: 3/27/2009 2:21:43 AM | just so you know a very good friend of mine was in the RCMP. He committed suicide, just before he was to be married. He worked undercover in vancover , in the drug world, he spent 2 years working this job till a large number of persons were charged and the end result was human frailty. He became friends of those being charged , it is possible to do over a period of time, he left a note , he could not live with the decisions he was making to do his job. I blame the gangs the drug cartels the scum that put the drugs out on the street and I blame all those indiscriminate a$$holes that buy the drugs for killing my friend ..
dustin | |
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Posted: 3/27/2009 6:46:47 AM | Nicely done, Dustin. When you look at alternatives to taser use, the options aren't that great. I suppose you could ask the cops to fight each and every scum bag they come into contact with but the numbers wouldn't be that different. One punch has time and time again killed people. In ten thousand confrontations, taser deaths and physical contact deaths would likely be similar except more cops would die. Is that what you're looking for? A "fair fight". Because if that's the case, then you have to start hiring cops who, once fully trained can beat the living crap out of anybody. Now you've got the biggest, craziest cops you can find who just love getting down with the general public.
Or they could just replace taser with gun and see how those odds work out. Or, you could figure out a better weapon that actually works in stopping the suspect without causing great harm. But isn't that what tasers are supposed to be?
The guy in the airport was a terrible mistake. He's in an airport so obviously doesn't have any weapons and likely isn't on drugs and might not speak English which could have explained his confusion. But that doesn't mean he's not dangerous. Again, one punch is all it takes and he was willing to swing. So if you deal with this stuff everyday, why should you take even one single chance with your own life? Any of you brave, brave men willing to do that on a daily basis with people who would love to get a few good jabs in before they go to jail?
Maybe the security people at the airport should have thought things through a little better before calling in the cops. Why aren't they in trouble for not dealing with this guy? Why haven't they been criticized for telling the cops this guy was so nuts they don't want to touch him? Why didn't they just stop the guy? Oh yeah, cause one punch can kill you and they didn't want to deal with that. | |
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Posted: 3/27/2009 8:31:40 AM | From what I have read on the incident at the airport the Polish gent was not threatening to hit the police with the stapler. It would appear that 3 of the police officers chose to fabricate a story and back each other up while the fourth officer chose to tell the truth. The video evidence backed up the single officer. Last time I checked police officers are supposed to uphold the law not cover each others butts.
Perjury is a serious crime with sentences up to 14 years in prison last I heard. The idea behind such a harsh sentence is to provide some motivation to tell the truth in court while under oath. It would appear the covering of each others butts was a greater motivation in three of the officers cases. Furthermore one of the officers in this instance had a (2 year) lapsed First Aid Certificate and as a result did not meet all the requirements to be a RCMP officer. I wonder how much slack is cut when someone has a drivers license lapsed for two years?
In my opinion some (not all) police officers use the taser to the point where I question if it is being used as either entertainment or torture. There is a case of a handcuffed drunk getting tasered in Banff a few years ago. Two or three cops can't handle a handcuffed drunk? Give me a break! It's time for police in general to abandon the protection of each other to cull the few that stain the image of all police officers.
I have a couple of friends who are former cops, one being former RCMP and he is disgusted with what the force has become. I dare say I'm not too impressed with the RCMP at this time either.
A taser has a legitimate place in a police arsenal, unfortunately some officers choose to misuse this weapon. | |
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Posted: 3/27/2009 8:36:52 AM |
I suppose you could ask the cops to fight each and every scum bag
thats the pathetic attitude right there
assuming anyone that has any dealings with police are "scum bags" is the height od ignorance.
the elderly man in vancouver that the police shot to death wasnt a scum bag, he was just another ordinary peron doing his regular ordinary routine
A "fair fight". Because if that's the case, then you have to start hiring cops who, once fully trained can beat the living crap out of anybody. Now you've got the biggest, craziest cops you can find who just love getting down with the general public.
umm excuse me , but they ARE TRAINED TO DO THAT . what police outfit is it you are referring to that has no training? perhaps security guard?
ive seen lots of police brutality and in many instances it is just that, police who believe they are above and better than the other person taking out their natural aggresive tendencies
and since cops regulate and handle all complaint against themselves, they have free reign to do so
do you recall rodney king? how about the multiple accounts of needless police brutality that are recorded. are all people scum bags in your opinion omg?
security people at the airport should have thought things through a little better before calling in the cops. Why aren't they in trouble for not dealing with this guy? Why haven't they been criticized for telling the cops this guy was so nuts they don't want to touch him? Why didn't they just stop the guy?
maybe because security personnel arent trained or authorized to control situations, the police are. and the ecuritys job is to cordone off the area and call the police to have a person removed, if the security had known that the police were just going to come and kill the guy, im sure even they would have acted differently.
quit justifying and approving of the methods these criminal cops are using , one day lets hope you arent theone they use them against. actually i hope you are the next one, then maybe youll show alittle empathy and understanding for the aggravation the so called scum bags and their families feel after they are abused by the system that was set up not to murder them, but to protect them.
this isnt iraq or afghanistan we are talking about here
He's in an airport so obviously doesn't have any weapons and likely isn't on drugs and might not speak English which could have explained his confusion. But that doesn't mean he's not dangerous. Again, one punch is all it takes and he was willing to swing. So if you deal with this stuff everyday, why should you take even one single chance with your own life?
do you even read what you type? every single human out there is equipped with arms and technically in your opinion is therefore a threat topolice. so this is justification to taser him to death? i thought electrocution was deemed inhumane. hence they uselethal injection to kill the condemned. or is electrocution perfectly fine as long as the victim isnt condemned and awaiting execution?
such single minded thinking is an insult to society. there were 4 cops . and they were trained , they had the skills to subdue the man who by their own admission wasnt in his right head
3 cowboys with lariats could have done a better job at upholding the law then these 4 heavily trained at the taxpayers expense police officers.
your arguement that 4 cops against one man was "taking a chance " with their lives is just amazing.
not tomention the extra security guards present
they could have even used a fiish net to subdue the guy or rubberbullets
tasers should not and werent ever meant to be the firstline of defence
http://www.immigrantjournal.com/pages/Immigration%20Info/Articles/NEW%20Articles/Executioners%20In%20Blue.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2009/03/15/que-policeprotest.html
http://members.fortunecity.com/brutalitycanada/names.html | |
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