| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 9:15:02 AM | Rev you are right what Clinton did was what many I cannot say factually that it was a Majority of men did. However at the same time RightWing's comment is not out of line. To those who did their duty who stood and fought it was the "cowards" way out. We can argue the moralities, we can dispute the wisdom of history all we want. The result remains however that Clinton did not just as Bush did not do his duty, that leaves a mark on the psyche.
You man not be ashamed that you are aware of but as with surviors guilt its in there somewhere it might be part of why you have the political views you have. Non the less Rightwing is also right that going into the depths of what Powell's past might have been doesn't serve much to the point of this thread. I think it was fine to just leave it that Powell has made choices that many of us do not support in his public life. What he may have had to do in his military life... War is not a clean thing and sometimes what was done should not always be examined too closely. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 9:22:11 AM |
War is not a clean thing and sometimes what was done should not always be examined too closely.
War is not clean.... and the same can be said for politics... or a day job, or marriage...
War is business as usual through other means. I believe it should be examined very closely, just like anything else.
When there was a draft and it was obvious to many of us that we were killing twice as many innocent people as we were combatants, and supporting a murdering tyrant in Pol Pot; who was the more courageous one(?); the one who risked going to prison for telling the US government "no", which finally ended the war? ... or the ones who capitulated and went over, being brave and courageous in battle?
I think most times it's between a person and their conscience, BUT to openly lie in order to help someone start war on false pretenses, or lie to cover up a murder is WRONG. I don't care whether it's war time or not.
A man who does things like that can't be trusted to lead. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 9:34:37 AM | Bill Clinton is arguably one of the smartest men alive. When he would have been selected for duty had he run out of deferments, he would have at least had a degree or his law degree. The chances of him having to serve in a combat capacity would have been about a million to one. More than likely he would have never seen Viet Nam but would have been a legal officer somewhere. There is no remorse among those who did not serve. There is only remorse for those we lost in a stupid needless war. My friends that served, including two silver star winners have no problem with those that did not nor with those that used every available means to stay out of it. After all, they just ran out of options, themselves. One of them was a fourth year freshman and the other lost his scholarship due to bad behavior.
We are hi jacking this thread with this direction so I will end in my part of it. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 9:45:43 AM | How on earth someone can compare Clintons service record(laughs) with Bush's record is beyond me.
Bush served in the Nat'l Gaurd.
Clinton fled to an English school.
Both were priveleged...???
Let me compare these 2 to what Ive seen in my own life.
Ive known many locals who served in the Nat'l Gaurd during Viet Nam. They were nobodies. Not priveleged. Regular guys. Nothing special about getting into the Nat'l Gaurd. They served. Not everybody during that era went into combat, my older brothers(nobodies) didnt either.
On the other hand, I had the "pleasure"(laughs) of bearing the brunt of Clinton-esque high school teachers, who, in their own selfish desperate attempt to avoid the real world duties of living in a democracy in the 20th century, chose to escape that duty by going to college & becoming a teacher. That was perhaps the easiest cop-out in the late 60s, aside from running to Canada. The spoiled sons of middle class WW2 veterans avoided the draft on their fathers savings & became young teachers.
Our schools were flooded with these pathetic rejects. They had no business being teachers, they had no social skills, & were useless for the most part. It was painfully obvious to us why they were in these positions. They were cowards.
Fast forward 30+ years later, and now you see what has happened to our education system. These very same losers got tenure, advanced into adminstrative positions & have imposed their "values" and "wisdom" upon a new generation of schoolchildren.
WW2 guys didnt want to go to war either. Same thing for WW1 guys, Korean War guys, etc etc. That arguement makes me sick to this day. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 9:57:03 AM | Clinton - priviledged - not hardly. learn something about his background. He won an Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford based on merit. By the time he was teaching in law school at Arkansas he was past his time to be drafted. (high draft number) He was raised by a single mother and Grandparents.
Your concept of how that affected the education system is ludicrious. Of that age group there are very few male teachers and women were not subjected to the draft.
Most males in education that became administration came to that position via being coaches and not teachers at all.
Okay I said i would not continue to hi jack this thread but that just had to be answered. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 10:09:50 AM | Your concept of how that affected the education system is ludicrious. Of that age group there are very few male teachers and women were not subjected to the draft.
I was in high school during that heyday...you were not. You are the same age as my oldest brother..who tried that scheme, & dropped out after 1 year. He joined the Army reserves & never saw combat.
It was an inside joke to us high school guys, & many were using them as a glowing example for their own master plan upon graduation.
I saw it & lived through it...there were MANY male mid-20s teachers in my area in the very early 70s & VERY FEW females of the same age. Like I said, it was painfully obvious..even to a pimply high school student.
The principal at the high school I went to just retired. He was a mid-20s geek math teacher in 1973 who avoided the draft.. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 10:26:58 AM | I can tell you this. During that time every type of deferrement was a main topic of conversation. As well as I can remember being a Teacher did not exempt you from being drafted. Working for the rail road did for a while, being a cop did, hell even playing in the NFL could if you played it right but not being a teacher. If you are right then people who spent most of their time trying to avoid service did not know about it. I graduated from High School in 1966. The Tet offensive was in 1969. I think I am pretty much aware of what was going on at the time. There were about four male teachers at my high school who were of service age. All had flunked the physical for one reason or another.
Many people went to college in that time on their own dime. I worked my way through college, first at a grocery store and later at a major oil company. No depleating Dady's bank account. Clinton went to school mostly on scholarships and working part time. He may have had some loans but I am not sure about that. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 10:27:17 AM | I can tell you this. During that time every type of deferrement was a main topic of conversation. As well as I can remember being a Teacher did not exempt you from being drafted. Working for the rail road did for a while, being a cop did, hell even playing in the NFL could if you played it right but not being a teacher. If you are right then people who spent most of their time trying to avoid service did not know about it. I graduated from High School in 1966. The Tet offensive was in 1969. I think I am pretty much aware of what was going on at the time. There were about four male teachers at my high school who were of service age. All had flunked the physical for one reason or another.
Many people went to college in that time on their own dime. I worked my way through college, first at a grocery store and later at a major oil company. No depleating Dady's bank account. Clinton went to school mostly on scholarships and working part time. He may have had some loans but I am not sure about that. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 10:27:30 AM | I can tell you this. During that time every type of deferrement was a main topic of conversation. As well as I can remember being a Teacher did not exempt you from being drafted. Working for the rail road did for a while, being a cop did, hell even playing in the NFL could if you played it right but not being a teacher. If you are right then people who spent most of their time trying to avoid service did not know about it. I graduated from High School in 1966. The Tet offensive was in 1969. I think I am pretty much aware of what was going on at the time. There were about four male teachers at my high school who were of service age. All had flunked the physical for one reason or another.
Many people went to college in that time on their own dime. I worked my way through college, first at a grocery store and later at a major oil company. No depleating Dady's bank account. Clinton went to school mostly on scholarships and working part time. He may have had some loans but I am not sure about that. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 11:23:32 AM | Yes, have to say I'm very impressed with Barack Obama! Caught him being interviewed by Larry King last night. Perhaps there's hope after all!
As a Canadian I try to keep abreast of the politics going on in U.S. because it ultimately effects us in some way or other and sometimes it's so bloody depressing I want to get my head in the sand. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 12:06:04 PM | Cavalier,
You're source for all this info on SPP you posted? Link please. Also, in another thread, Late, a moderator on these boards posted a link which seems to go against what you said. Here is the link
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/staticpages/index.php/ribbon
And I don't like the fact you keep implying I have some other reason to not like him which is not the case.
I doubt that there would be a candidate that would share my views on immigration reform but not share my views on anything else. I consider myself somewhere in the middle of republicans and democrats, so I don't fit neatly into either party and I don't tow a specific party line and I seriously doubt I'd ever find a candidate who agreed with me on all issues unless maybe a new 3rd party was formed.
I am just tired of our elected officials making bad decisions and being dishonest about the immigration issue with the American people and not making a sincere effort in enforcing the laws we have on the books. I think if the media(besides CNN) did a better job of covering the issue, people like you would not be so in the dark about this and confused on the issue, thinking that the senate immigration reform bill was a good law(and thinking those that supported it were doing the right thing), when it was not. I get the feeling that if Obama did run, he'd have alot of explaining to do about his strong support for that senate bill if another candidate ran who did not vote for the bill brought it up in a debate. Such as why he did not want illegal immigrants to pay all their back taxes or punish those who engaged in identity theft? The bill treats illegal immigrants better than legal citizens and that is not right. I can't vote for someone who supports that kind of legislation no matter how intelligent or how much of a good speaker he is. I'll admit, he seems pretty sincere on a wide range of issues, but when you look deeper at things like this, it can't help but give one pause and question whether he's really the best person for the job.
Can you honestly say you support treating illegal immigrants better than legal citizens? | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 12:59:47 PM | redwood,
Sorry about not citing my source.
http://www.spp.gov/
I have researched a little more on this bill and the major difference i see is the House bill focuses more on workplace enforcement and border security....while the Senate bill addresses border security but offers a plan for a guest worker program and a mechanism for current illegals to obtain citizenship(a very complicated three-tiered plan to determine who could stay and who must go).
It seems to me a blend of these two is the way to go. What to do with the 11-12 million illegals currently here seems to be the sticking point. The House plan, according to the Washington Post, calls for emptying the country of all those illegals. That's ridiculous. It's an unworkable proposition and a waste of money. 2 million or so would be deported under the Senate plan but that's going to be pretty hard to do as well. Those in the US less than 2 years get deported.....2-5 years get sent home but may apply for a green card.....5+ years in the US may stay provided they pay back taxes and apply for citizenship.
from that same Washington Post article
By Charles Babington
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 26, 2006; Page A01
"A possible compromise, some lawmakers said, might start with tighter border security and then -- if there is measurable evidence the crackdown is working -- proceed to a mechanism for some illegal immigrants to achieve legal status. But lawmakers said it is far from clear whether such a plan would appeal to enough House Republicans, and enough Senate Democrats, to win passage in either chamber.
Further complicating matters is Speaker J. Dennis Hastert's policy of allowing votes on major issues only if most of the House's 231 Republicans back them. Theoretically, a compromise immigration bill could be supported by most of the House's Democrats and nearly half of its Republicans -- making up a clear majority in the 435-seat chamber -- only to be thwarted by Hastert's dictum."
Sounds to me like Hastert is the one you should be pissed at, not Obama.
So in summary....the Senate bill DOES require illegals to pay back taxes.....they must prove they have been employed for 3 of the 5 years they've been here or they get deported right along with the others....and fraudulent claims of residency would be considered a crime.
I'm not as "in the dark" as you think, sir. Don't talk down to me like I'm some wet behind the ears kid. I'm older than you. Since it seems YOU are not entirely clear on what these bills entail, here's a link to the Washington Post that compares the two side by side.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/custom/2006/05/26/CU2006052600148.html | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 4:24:11 PM | "How on earth someone can compare Clintons service record(laughs) with Bush's record is beyond me."
Indeed. ANY comparison between Clinton and Monkey Boy is ludicrous!!
"Bush served in the Nat'l Gaurd."
"SERVED"?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Kindly define "served"!!!! | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 4:36:50 PM | Cavalier,
The senate bill does require illegals to pay back taxes, but not ALL of them. Lets get that fact straight. Check out this link
http://cornyn.senate.gov/index.asp?f=record&rid=237191&gid=5
Thats why I say its unfair to legal citizens who must pay all their taxes, not just some of them. Also, it seems that the temporary guest worker program included in the bill would probably not really be temporary because with the federal governments past record over the decades on enforcing immigration laws being so poor, do you think they will really hunt down and deport all the temporary workers who have been in the country for years who will decide to stay here against the law?
Also, nowhere did I see in the house bill that it involves mass deportations of illegal aliens or require "emptying the country of illegals". Here's a snippet from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._4437
"Contrary to some reports, HR 4437 does not involve massive deportations. It may increase the ease of deportations of peoples caught by local law enforcement, but there are no provisions to actively search for illegal immigrants..." It may also increase the number of illegal immigrants that return voluntarily to their original countries, because they may have difficulty finding work, if higher employer fines and penalties were to have their intended effect.
As I've said over and over(you must not be listening), when the job magnet and welfare magnet are removed, most illegals will self-deport.
Also the senate bill does nothing to address the problem of cities declaring illegal alien sanctuaries which are currently against U.S. law but have no penalty currently associated with breaking that law. The house bill addressed that problem.
You mentioned a compromise bill, but the compromise bill would still invovle rewarding illegal behaviour which I don't support.
Also illegal aliens who engage in identity theft would not be punished like legal citizens are who engage in that crime. Check out this article
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=255674
Finally, age does not matter much here. A person 10 years my junior could have more knowledge on this than the both of us. And I know we all want a candidate who will be better than any president we've ever had, but I don't think Obama is that person because of his support for bills like that. Its not about party affiliation, its not about gender, race or age either. I would not support McCain or Hilary either because both also voted for that bill like Obama did. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 4:41:35 PM | Funny, I had no idea cowardess was defined as not fighting in a war that should have never been started and that you dont believe in.
I know a few older guys that served in Vietnam and I wouldn't wish their current mental state on anyone.
P.S. If there was a draft for this Iraq war of freedom!!! I'd be the first to dodge it. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 6:58:48 PM | There's an interesting article about Obama in this month's Harper's.
He's something of a political genius... the question is whether or not his character will stay intact on his ride to the top... the air is pretty thin up there. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 9:01:31 PM | So much to respond to. First, thanks RWGG for posting this thread, I mentioned Obama in a previous thread and no one bit.
Redwood, I am incredibly sick of people making snap judgments about politicians for passing a bill because they have no idea why the person did or did not vote for it. Sometimes it is a lesser of two evils, sometimes it is the best we can do now to come back and toughen up later, and sometimes there is pork barrel in a bill or some type of clause that makes it totally untenable for some reason. The immigration issue is exceedingly complicated and it sounds like Obama believed that the bill was the best they could work out right now and basing your decision on this issue is short-sighted.
MG, I do not think that Obama is vulnerable to the bribery that is rampant in our system because he indicates that he votes his conscience when he knows that some of his constituents will not agree. He will not begin voting differently because of potential criticism, although he will obviously consider their wants and needs when making decisions.
Rev0218, in addition to explaining his voting, I was impressed with his appearance on Oprah as he noted that during the writing of the book he wondered if he had done his mother a disservice by focusing on his father because she was the one that raised him and helped him to be the person he is. I also think it is important to see how people treat their spouses and children and I am impressed that he seems to truly love and respect his wife and that he cares about the values he instills in his children so much so that that issue alone would cause him to refrain from becoming a sellout.
Justin Case, I think if Obama does not run it is not because he does not believe he is up to the task but that he has more to learn before pursuing it. He will need to feel qualified before he will toss his hat in the ring and I got the feeling from the last interview I watched that he is not sure he is there yet.
FireKnight, Clinton had a legitimate reason to be out of the country and as others have mentioned, he was not drafted. Bush served in the National Guard but what he did still remains a mystery and we should remember his hiatus from service when it was apparently acceptable to just leave and campaign for his dad.
Neopol, your post on not reading Obama's book, yada, yada, was interesting. Apparently you believe it is wise to ignore things that can help you understand the character of a man because you will receive some divine inspiration about who to vote for.
One of the reasons that I am so impressed with Obama's character is that he does not care enough about being a Senator or anything else to compromise his values. If people do not like his ideas or what he is trying to do that is fine but he will not change them in order to be elected or remain in office. He has worked hard for what he has achieved and does not complain that he actually had to work to succeed. He has also done an excellent job of working with people of both parties during his tenure in the Senate. Quite frankly makes me proud to have been born and raised in Illinois. He does not claim to be perfect, just trying to be a good man, a good husband and father. And listening to him speak or reading what he has written is a true pleasure, he is eloquent and yet succinct, how refreshing. He manages to be intelligent, educated and yet accessible without painting himself a dufus one might like to down a beer with. Nice to see some people with diverse opinions agreeing on this thread, perhaps there is hope for us after all. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 9:13:48 PM | Packagedealx3
Yeah what you said!!! LOL actually I do think you hit just about everything as you often do.
Not just on Oprah but everytime I have seen this man interviewed or listened to him speak the first thought that came to my mind was character. I have come to believe that this is the man I will support. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/20/2006 10:51:23 PM | My opinion: I think republicans are trying to encourage democrats to go for Barack Obama because he's black and they feel he's unelectable if the democrats choose him. I'm not saying we shouldn't choose him for that reason, but I do think the ability to win of whatever democrat is chosen to run should be taken into consideration.
I do think there are more electable democrats than Obama... although he might make a good running mate. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 4:16:33 AM | Republicans wanted Bill Clinton to run because they thought he was unelectable too. In the last election they were more scared that John Edwards might beat Kerry for the nominations and that Edwards would be harder to beat.
Anticon, if not Obama then who? Hilary's negative figures are almost as high as her positives. Edwards maybe, Warner took himself out of the race. Joe Biden, Wes Clark? | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 6:32:52 AM | | I just hope Dems don't nominate Hilary with a side of Obama as VP. As much as I like Obama, I will simply not vote for Hilary.......she is simply more of the same. I'd rather vote for McCain if those are my choices. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 9:11:50 AM | Neopol, your post on not reading Obama's book, yada, yada, was interesting. Apparently you believe it is wise to ignore things that can help you understand the character of a man because you will receive some divine inspiration about who to vote for.
Yes, I believe it is wise to not be duped by a collection of mere printed pages of someones agenda. I could write a book spewing the complete opposite of what I stand for and what I want everyone to believe. I hope it becomes a bestseller. It means nothing in the scheme of real world things. Character cant be printed.
All you haveto do is re-read post #68. That cements my position. I not so easily duped by used car salesmen either. There is no time frame to this process for me. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 11:08:42 AM | | I have to agree with Neopol here. I think one thing that's wrong with our country is people are too easily taken in by politicians who are good speakers/writers. It is sad, but most of our politicians are not honest and do lie or at least stretch the truth or omit things they don't want people to know about. That's why people need to look at their voting records since voting records do not lie and read about the legislation that they did or did not vote for. And this is not just about Obama, but politicians in general. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 11:25:16 AM |
Anticon, if not Obama then who?
If Obama's going to be the guy, he's getting a good head start with this book. I agree with what you said about the republicans having thought Bill Clinton unelectable.
Edwards is one guy...
As far as I know; only one ex-congressman has ever been elected president. There's more than one reason Hillary would be a tough sell. When a person's been in congress, they've voted; which makes their voting record a target for the other side (no matter who it is or how good you might think their voting record is), whereas governors don't have to carry something like that into their campaigns.
Senators are very powerful politicians and their names are in the public eye; so they become candidates many times, but wind up being wallflowers in the big dance.
Look at governors... | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 12:34:38 PM |
I think one thing that's wrong with our country is people are too easily taken in by politicians who are good speakers/writers.
I think if you look at recent history ( Clinton being the one real exception that proves the point) most leaders ( in Canada as well, not just there) have lacked charisma and rhetorical ability. To cite my own country as an example, both Paul Martin and Harper are complete washouts in that regard. In Canada, you'd have to go back to Pierre Elliot Trudeau to get any sort of a positive model in those traits.
In my view, eloquence and charisma are very much needed traits in any leader. One has to be able to capture the imagination of the population, in a very positive way. Look at Churchill as an example, or JFK. Both those leaders were involved in very dangerous and complicated times, but when they spoke they inspired confidence.
Look at Jon's Stewart's talk about 9/11, on his first night back :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkuqoTseUPo&eurl=
Look at RFK's speech on the night of Martin Luther King's death, one of the finest moments of leadership during one of the most difficult nights in American history.
I dare anyone to listen to that, and not have a "chill" run through their body.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/rfkonmlkdeath.html
A leader who is unable to clearly express himself, who chooses the wrong words, or who hasn't spent much time thinking about the subject he is speaking on, presents the listener with a much different image. Look again at Bush as an example. If you place him in a position where he is getting hit with "unexpected" questions, he can't keep up with the dialogue. He falls back on catch phrases, slogans , and cannot argue his point.
Take someone like Obama, throw him into the same conditions, and I have no doubt that he will rise to the occasion. That requires presenting a good argument, listening to the counter-argument, and then responding with a passionate and heart felt defense - without resorting to any attacks on the opponent.
If you can do that, you can at least be sure of reaching a good number of people listening.
American rhetoric, especially in the political field, is a critical part of American life.
Here's a great site, where you can see some of the finest examples of that in action :
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/ | |
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