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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 1:34:37 PM | With respect, being a great orator does not a great leader, necessarily make. I mean,
one trait does not necessarily follow the other, at all. I mean, I am sure there are not great orators out there that would make great leaders...
On the flip side, gee, Hitler, um yeah, he was a great orator....leader, if you like mass murderers.
And.....why do we keep changing the topic of this thread? Yikes.
So, Obama? People will vote for him because Oprah likes him? How absurd. I love Oprah, I idealize her, but, she does not inspire for whom I vote. Please give us more credit then that.
As for Obama, I'd give him a shot, I mean, it would be ok with me if he won, but, I always vote my part first. I wouldn't be mad, like when that lying, cheating, rapist, crook, who gave our secrets to N. Korea got in....twice. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 1:46:36 PM | Barack Obama's strenght is that he talks a good game, but can he delivery? Ross Perot talked a good game and he crashed and burned.
Meanwhile Ralph Nader fit the perfect profile for an ulternative and basically went unnoticed.
At least Nader talked about fighting special interests and giving government back to the people. Obama is in the democratic machine and simply says all the pretty things that anybody would robotically nod YES too.
So far I see people here hypnotized by the man and his words but I fail to see the path in which he would actually change Washington. | |
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dmotz
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Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 78 | |
| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 2:08:02 PM |
I think republicans are trying to encourage democrats to go for Barack Obama because he's black and they feel he's unelectable if the democrats choose him.
Anticon...my friend....
I mean this with all due respect, I do not give a rats a*** what you think about Republicans wanting Obama to run because he is black.
This man is the best out there...His skin does not matter. If the racist pigs in this country want to not vote for him ...fine...those of us who see "THE MAN" will.
In my party...I see no one who is fit for the job. In your party especially the extreme lib wing...they all need to be tossed out on their collective butts...just like the NEOCONS!
I would love for the country to be run by intelligent men and women who will do what they are there to do...not grab more money and piss on us all.
Obama is the bright light in the near future...and if folks from both sides of the isle do not see this...we are just going to be screwed that much more.
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 2:19:23 PM |
Anticon...my friend....
I mean this with all due respect, I do not give a rats a*** what you think about Republicans wanting Obama to run because he is black.
This man is the best out there...His skin does not matter. If the racist pigs in this country want to not vote for him ...fine...those of us who see "THE MAN" will.
In my party...I see no one who is fit for the job. In your party especially the extreme lib wing...they all need to be tossed out on their collective butts...just like the NEOCONS!
I would love for the country to be run by intelligent men and women who will do what they are there to do...not grab more money and piss on us all.
Obama is the bright light in the near future...and if folks from both sides of the isle do not see this...we are just going to be screwed that much more.
Are you sure you meant that?
Just kidding...
I didn't mean YOU necessarily. It's certainly not for me to say why you're supporting him on this thread. I didn't mean to disrespect you in this way. That was not my intention... However, I do think many republicans would like to see Barack be chosen for the reason stated above. He'd be a hard sell.
So I'm not saying he should quit or not run because he might win. That would be circular reasoning. It's just that if he does run, he'll have to work harder than any other candidate to win. There's still alot of racial prejudice out there.
In fact, there's more than racial prejudice. There's every kind of prejudice imaginable; including religious bias, cultural, geographic, class...
the fact is that human beings, including myself; are biased about anyone who's not "us" and the best we can do is realize that and try to work past it.
See?
It's even between us... you think you know better than me and vice versa. That's why we debate. I do the same thing with my sons, daughter, anybody. It's just being human.
The more similar we are to voters, the easier the sell. Since Barack is black, it's a tougher sell. That's all I'm saying. | |
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dmotz
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Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 80 | |
| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 2:34:46 PM | I gottcha Anticon....
I see your point. But what I say about Obama ...I mean..every word.
Your right...there is alot of folks who will not vote for him because he is black. But..I believe the majority of people in this country will see the man and his integrity. I believe the best man for the job is Obama. I have gotten a few emails from folks who are bashing me pretty hard over my opinion...not just here but from other sites as well...
All I tell them is this...Dont be part of the sheep herd....look at the man and all he has accomplished...I honestly belive he is the man for the job. No one else from either party is suited for the job. EVERYONE in washington has been bought and paid for...except Obama.
If he does not run...that is his choice and I respect that...But if he does...and this nation does not put him in office because of his skin color....it will be a sad day indeed.
We need someone who can build a bridge between the huge gap in parties...Someone who will work both sides of the isle. A person who will do what is RIGHT for the NATION and not their own party. A leader who has ethics and principals..there is only one person out there who fits this bill..... | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 5:04:58 PM |
No one else from either party is suited for the job.
I disagree, not saying he wouldnt make a good choice. But i can think of some other choices, but i don't think they put there hat in......
they never have in the past anyways.....
I like mccain, (hes put his hat in)
I like biden ( i dont think hes ever put his hat in)
I could probably come up with a few more.....
But i am canadian | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/21/2006 11:09:48 PM | Montrealguy,
I admit that it would be nice to have a president who was a good orator, was very intelligent, a quick thinker on his feet, etc. who people could really get behind, but I think that because the American people want a president like that so badly, they may be more easily fooled and not look deeply enough at a candidate like that, such as looking closley at his/her voting record, and not taking his/her word for where he/she stands on everything. And as someone else above pointed out, not all people who have been good orators have been good leaders.
As I said before, lots of politicians will state where they stand and expect you to believe them and take their word for it, and many people do take their word for it, but if you look at their voting records, it often tells a different story about where they really stand.
For example, on Obama's website, he states that the senate immigration reform bill that he helped craft requires illegal immigrants to pay back taxes before granting them citizenship. What he does not say however is that they would not have to pay ALL back taxes. I know many legal law abiding citizens who pay their taxes EVERY year and not just some years would not be happy at all to hear this. Personally I would probably be more likely to support him if he'd voted against that bill instead of voting for it. I feel he should have pulled his support for the bill in protest once he saw that they planned to treat illegals better than legal citizens. That would have taken alot of courage to do and I would respect him because of it.
Politicians often leave out little details like that(such as him saying illegals would have to pay back taxes when thats not really the whole truth) to make themselves sound better than they really are. If the little details were left in as honestly they should be, they'd lose some of their support they currently enjoy. Also on his site he makes it sound as if there are only 2 choices in the immigration reform debate. Either mass deportations of illegals or making illegal aliens citizens after they jump through various hoops(a form of amnesty or quasi-amnesty if you prefer). The 3rd and best choice that I have seen(which many politicians don't want to acknowledge) is to simply remove the job magnet and welfare magnet(as described in a previous post)and most illegals will self-deport.
I'll admit he's better than Bush and some other politicians, but I'm not willing to say he's the best candidate. However, he may end up being the lesser of two evils when he does run for president, whenever that might be. If so, then I'd have no choice but to vote for him or not vote at all. For instance if it came down to Obama or McCain, I'd vote for Obama and one reason why would be because of McCains stronger support for illegal aliens(Bush and McCain are very similar in that regard).
Rightwinggoodguy,
I know you are really enthused about Obama, but how can you be so sure when you say he is the only guy in Washington that is not bought and paid for? I don't know if even the FBI knows that information, much less normal citizens like you and I. If he is not bought and paid for, more power to him, thats great and I wish all politicians could be like that. Politicians can claim they are free of any influence and not bought or paid for, but how do we know they are being completely honest about it? These are politicians remember, many of them are masters of deceit(not claiming Obama is one those) even if they sound honest and sincere and seem like nice and good people. Someone I have been looking at who seems interesting to me, though I still ahve alot to learn about and am still unsure of, is Ron Paul. How can you be so sure that he is bought and paid for too and Obama isn't? | |
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dmotz
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Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 83 | |
| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/22/2006 8:50:02 AM | I am hoping Obama will announce his decision soon after the midterms. There are reports from Barron Mag, that say the Republicans will hold both houses. I doubt this and if they do, we will need a Democrat Pres who will not bow down to them. I think Obama will run..or at least I hope so...
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Oct22/0,4670,Obama2008,00.html
WASHINGTON — Sen. Barack Obama acknowledged Sunday he was considering a run for president in 2008, backing off previous statements that he would not do so.
The Illinois Democrat said he could no longer stand by the statements he made after his 2004 election and earlier this year that he would serve a full six-year term in Congress. He said he would not make a decision until after the Nov. 7 elections.
"That was how I was thinking at that time,"said Obama, when asked on NBC's"Meet the Press"about his previous statements.
"Given the response I've been getting the last several months, I have thought about the possibility"although not with any seriousness or depth, he said."My focus is on'06. ... After November 7, I'll sit down and consider it."
Obama was largely unknown outside Illinois when he burst onto the national scene with a widely acclaimed address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
In recent weeks, his political stock has been rising as a potentially viable centrist candidate for president in 2008 after former Virginia Gov. Mark Warner announced earlier this month that he was bowing out of the race.
In a recent issue of Time magazine, Obama's face fills the cover next to the headline,"Why Barack Obama Could Be The Next President."He is currently on a tour promoting his latest book,"The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream."
On Sunday, Obama dismissed notions that he might not be ready to run for president because of his limited experience in national politics. He agreed the job requires a"certain soberness and seriousness"and"can't be something you pursue on the basis of vanity and ambition."
"I'm not sure anyone is ready to be president before they're president,"Obama said."I trust the judgment of the American people.
"We have a long and vigorous process. Should I decide to run, if I ever decide to, I'll be confident that I'll be run through the paces pretty well,"Obama said. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/22/2006 9:44:39 AM |
I admit that it would be nice to have a president who was a good orator, was very intelligent, a quick thinker on his feet, etc. who people could really get behind, but I think that because the American people want a president like that so badly, they may be more easily fooled and not look deeply enough at a candidate like that, such as looking closley at his/her voting record, and not taking his/her word for where he/she stands on everything. And as someone else above pointed out, not all people who have been good orators have been good leaders.
My point exactly. ThanKs for clarifying.
I dont care who is running...if they are/were a congressman I DO rely on their voting history as prime reference. They can say or do whatever they want, but that record speaks the final word for me.
Thats the problem with someone like Obama. His voting history is very limited. There are some major issues that you have no concrete foundation to base an opinion on. In that respect he can say 1 thing to garner support, then cave and change position after its too late.
I dont see it as much of a stretch to come off as a moderate, or centrist, or whatever slur you call us, then retreat into the AD-LIB camp of the party/agenda. Its done all the time. Kerry did it. Gore did it before him. They basically tried to decieve on 1 or 2 issues that were important to me, but they both had long voting records to rely upon. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/22/2006 10:16:04 AM | I'll second (and third) that!!! lol!! Good one!! But then again, I look at the last 2 voting fiascos and suddenly its no longer a joke.....
There are URL's supporting each of these points, so if you want them, please email me here. (and a David Letterman roll of the drum, please)
20 Amazing Facts About
Voting in the USA
1. 80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies:
Diebold and ES&S.
2. There is no federal agency with regulatory authority or oversight
of the U.S. voting machine industry.
3. The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.
4. The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer
and donor who wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio
deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."
5. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be chairman of ES&S. He
became Senator based on votes counted by ES&S machines.
6. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, long-connected with the Bush
family, was recently caught lying about his ownership of ES&S by the
Senate Ethics Committee.
7. Senator Chuck Hagel was on a short list of George W. Bush's
vice-presidential candidates.
8. ES&S is the largest voting machine manufacturer in the U.S. and
counts almost 60% of all U.S. votes.
9. Diebold's new touch screen voting machines have no paper trail of
any votes. In other words, there is no way to verify that the data
coming out of the machine is the same as what was legitimately put in
by voters.
10. Diebold also makes ATMs, checkout scanners, and ticket machines,
all of which log each transaction and can generate a paper trail.
11. Diebold is based in Ohio.
12. Diebold employed 5 convicted felons as consultants and developers
to help write the central compiler computer code that counted 50% of
the votes in 30 states.
13. Jeff Dean was Senior Vice-President of Global Election Systems
when it was bought by Diebold. Even though he had been convicted of 23
counts of felony theft in the first degree, Jeff Dean was retained as
a consultant by Diebold and was largely responsible for programming
the optical scanning software now used in most of the United States.
14. Diebold consultant Jeff Dean was convicted of planting back doors
in his software and using a "high degree of sophistication" to evade
detection over a period of 2 years.
15. None of the international election observers were allowed in the
polls in Ohio.
16. California banned the use of Diebold machines because the security
was so bad. Despite Diebold's claims that the audit logs could not be
hacked, a chimpanzee was able to do it!
17. 30% of all U.S. votes are carried out on unverifiable touch screen
voting machines with no paper trail.
18. All -- not some -- but all the voting machine errors detected and
reported in Florida went in favor of Bush or Republican candidates.
19. The governor of the state of Florida, Jeb Bush, is the President's brother.
20. Serious voting anomalies in Florida -- again always favoring Bush
-- have been mathematically demonstrated and experts are recommending
further investigation.
cheers! | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/22/2006 10:18:24 AM | The only problem I would have with Obama is that people would vote for him simply because he is black. For many, the decision would be based solely upon his skin color and not upon his limited voying record or his documented stances on key issues.
In this country there is the start of a very strong tide of reverse discrimination in which people of color are automatically given grace due to their color. We are bending over backwards to let illegal aliens into this country and grant them the privelages of citizenship even when they were not earned. The same thing is happening in the political arena. There is a segement of thepopulation that will vote for candidates solely for their skin color or what they can potentially do for a small segment of society. And not for what the cabdidate can do for the greater good of the country. As a country we are becomin so me oriented that we are failing to look at what is of the greater good of the country.
As a result of this me orientation our country is becoming more segmented and politacally divided than ever. Partisan politics rule rather than reason and logic. Political parties should exist solely for election purposes only. Once elected party affiliation should be tossed and voting should be done based upon the greater good of the country and its citizens.
Now that I went off on a wild tangent..... back to the subject at hand.
I think Barack Obama is intelligent, an incredible orator and has great potential as a political leader. But I think we need to know more of him before we crown him as the next great hope of or foundering country. However, that being said, I don't see any of the other announced candidates that we know more of being any better than he is. At this juncture we have our choice of candiates that range from bad or worse.
I think America would support and elect a main stream black President and Obama fits the parameters. America would also support a woman President, just not Hillary Clinton. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/22/2006 11:22:56 AM | Funny you say that. You say that the blacks are given an easier time, thus denying that systemic racism does not exist. Yet --the African American voters were screwed over in the Florida election, and the devastation of Hurricane Katrina revealed the plight of the poorest people in Louisiana--and they were predominately the African American population. You might want to check my earlier posting regarding the skewed voting process in the SA......
cheers | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/22/2006 2:12:59 PM | I have met several politicians in my career, I have had the honor to meet Senator Obama on two occasions. First when he was a State Senator from Illinois and then again after his victory in Washington. Senator Obama is a gracious, articulate and an intelligent man but more importantly he is an individual who exudes the promise of hope and the potential for greatness.
Senator Obama is one of those rare individuals who transcends party lines, race, gender and social standing in order to do what is right for the people. I do hope the Senator decides to run for President at some point as I truly believe that he will bring honor and integrity to the White House as well as restore our faith as Americans in this great Nation in which we live. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/22/2006 8:57:11 PM | I'd vote for the Obama/McCain ticket.... or the McCain/Obama? 
Obama seems to be the one to watch after Nov 7th. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/23/2006 3:46:06 AM | | RWG, you are absolutely right, if you have personally met Senator Obama, as I have, what you first notice and what will stay with you is the man and his integrity, not the color of his skin. Not to mention that he truly is a man of the people, not a man of the party. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/23/2006 6:02:41 AM | Well, it looks like Obama has heard RWG's conversion to his cause, and decided to perhaps make an attempt at running in 2008 . 
Rising star Obama weighs White House run
WASHINGTON - Sen. Barack Obama acknowledged Sunday he was considering a run for president in 2008, backing off previous statements that he would not do so.
The Illinois Democrat said he could no longer stand by the statements he made after his 2004 election and earlier this year that he would serve a full six-year term in Congress. He said he would not make a decision until after the Nov. 7 elections.
"That was how I was thinking at that time," said Obama, when asked on NBC's "Meet the Press" about his previous statements.
"Given the responses that I've been getting over the last several months, I have thought about the possibility" although not with the seriousness or depth required, he said. "My main focus right now is in the '06. ... After November 7, I'll sit down, I'll sit down and consider, and if at some point I change my mind, I will make a public announcement and everybody will be able to go at me."
Obama was largely unknown outside Illinois when he burst onto the national scene with a widely acclaimed address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention.
In recent weeks, his political stock has been rising as a potentially viable centrist candidate for president in 2008 after former Virginia Gov. Mark Warner announced earlier this month that he was bowing out of the race.
In a recent issue of Time magazine, Obama's face fills the cover next to the headline, "Why Barack Obama Could Be The Next President." He is currently on a tour promoting his latest book, "The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream."
On Sunday, Obama dismissed notions that he might not be ready to run for president because of his limited experience in national politics. He agreed the job requires a "certain soberness and seriousness" and "can't be something you pursue on the basis of vanity and ambition."
"I'm not sure anyone is ready to be president before they're president," Obama said. "I trust the judgment of the American people.
"We have a long and rigorous process. Should I decide to run, if I ever did decide to run, I'll be confident that I'll be run through the paces pretty good," Obama said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061023/ap_on_el_pr/obama2008
Based on some of the replies in this thread....might be the first sign that the sun might shine again some day. 
Here you go, RWG --------> 
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/23/2006 12:57:12 PM | Might be the very thing to boost the nation out of the doldrums. Hope for the future.
.... or he could be the anti-christ.
(watching the omen on dvd) | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/23/2006 2:15:17 PM | I think this is a very good thing for the country. I am a staunch Replubican, and I have been all of my voting life, but I am so disapointed with the state of our country that I am looking to the democrats for a change. Seeing Hillary Clinton as the only Democratic option was very disapointing. I really didn't like her the first time she was President the first time.
Before we annoint him as the great hope for this country lets look at him objectively and review his stances on important policies. Quite frankly, I am ready for a positive change and I hope Obama can be the one to make this happen. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/24/2006 7:00:33 AM | I'd vote for him for the very reason I won't vote for anyone else the dems OR republicans put up on their little pedastals for us to fawn over: I'm sick of politicians who can't make up their minds on anything from environmental policy to whether to roll up their sleeves for a photo op without seeing first whether it'll play well in the polls. For chrissakes, we've got a woman republican (Martha Rainville) running for Congress here whose statement on environmental policy as posted on her website was lifted wholesale from a speech by Hilary Clinton, and she didn't even know it! Somebody working on her campaign was fired - whoop-de-flippin-doo. It doesn't excuse the fact that she didn't even *know* what was on her own damn website, and it doesn't exactly give me any confidence that she has a coherent environmental strategy.
Give me a politician who thinks for themself, isn't afraid to say what they think, and doesn't need a posse of speechwriters and handlers to vet thier every little move to make sure it plays in Peoria. Give me a politician who has actually WORKED at a real job, has paid real bills, and has lived among real people - not these freaking pampered, petted, prep-school show-dog billionare bozos with no real-world experience. And no, kissing babies at a parade whose every face in the crowd has been background-checked doesn't count. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/24/2006 9:13:00 AM | Thats the problem with someone like Obama. His voting history is very limited. There are some major issues that you have no concrete foundation to base an opinion on. In that respect he can say 1 thing to garner support, then cave and change position after its too late.
I dont see it as much of a stretch to come off as a moderate, or centrist, or whatever slur you call us, then retreat into the AD-LIB camp of the party/agenda. Its done all the time. Kerry did it. Gore did it before him. They basically tried to decieve on 1 or 2 issues that were important to me, but they both had long voting records to rely upon.
One of the things I think would be a GREAT thing for this country, then, would be to have multiple, unfettered debates between the candidates where 1) Questions are not pre-scripted, and 2) No one is allowed to whisper in the candidate's ear what to say, and 3) a respected panel of three moderators are used to represent center right, center left, and independent questions. Better still, I think it would be beneficial to have at least one of the debates designed like a town hall meeting, where the audience may ask the questions.
These types of extemporaneous situations are the kinds of things that will tell you tons more about a candidate than his handlers would otherwise allow you to see.
BTW, don't forget about things that ol' Bu$hy said when he was running for office....no nation-building, conservative compassion, meaningful fiscal reform, blah blah lie lie lie. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/24/2006 6:44:30 PM | When Senator Obama was on Oprah last week, she asked him what he did with the proceeds of his book. He said "I paid off my student loans and bought a few nice things for my wife." There, a real answer from a real person, someone who actually knows what it is like to be an everyday person who has loans, bills and other everyday problems.
I also find Michelle Obama very impressive, she has a highly successful career of her own here in Chicago and she seems to do a good job of keeping the family in balance with the help of her husband. Over the years I have had to work on various campaigns, mostly related to my work and not by choice. However, if the Senator decides to run, I will volunteer by choice. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/24/2006 7:27:05 PM | Its not that I was decieved by what was said in the debates, it was certain public displays during the campaigns that were decieving. Here is 1 example:
Both Gore & Kerry donned hunting jackets & rifles & proceeded to very publiclly go hunting during the campaign in order to dupe uninformed gun owners into thinking they were pro gun. As a pro-gun Democrat I already knew that was totally false. I wasnt being duped by it.
Their records proved that. They both have a history of voting against 2nd amendment rights.
Someone like Obama, on the other hand, can conceivebly dupe us on an issue and say what they want to garner support. With no voting history, I would have to weigh the risks, because politicians, even Obama, will dupe. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/24/2006 10:14:18 PM | Preferably I would like to see Obama as house democrat. This position would let him get his hands dirty - as all politics is a dirty to some extent and define his stances on many issues which would help his support base.
Nader would be my pick but he neither campaigns to the degree of the heavy hitters, sticks to his grass roots campus lectures, and is getting on the old side to be in touch with the movers and shakers in Washington.
Hillary is sham and will say whatever the lastest poll tells her.
I'll be a freak and recommend Ron Paul, primarily because he is non interventionist, understands debt and currency issues (which is important in light of the twin deficits) and is the right age for the job. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/25/2006 2:21:24 AM | | Any candidate running has the potential to dupe us. Regarding Senator Obama, no he does not have a long voting record that we can monitor and yes he does need a more seasoning. However, what he does have that I have not seen in any candidate in a long time, is the ability to motivate and inspire people, both qualities that a true leader needs especially in such difficult times. As I said in my earlier post, I believe the Senator inspires hope in people, that may not be everything but in these times I think the Country needs a change and I see the potential in the Senator to make those changes. Call me crazy or just call me hopeful. | |
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| Barack Obama The Audacity of Hope
Posted: 10/25/2006 10:34:15 PM | | I just went to Obama's web page and all I see is the same old more-government-regulation-and-control-will-solve-all-the-world's-problems mentality. His heart is probably in the right place with regard to campaign reform, but I don't think it would be effective. | |
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