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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 11/1/2006 9:29:53 AM | Where nudity is practical, it is practiced, don't you think?
SHADOWDANCING SAID: "...in this world we are pretty much on our own. Our actions can cause harm and damage to others...all sins cause some sort of damage to someone or something"
I was trying to show you that every single thing we do causes harm in some manner, NOT ONLY SIN, and that there is such a thing as harm justified. The other point I was trying to make was that one cannot be held responsible for the sins of others if one acts with a clear conscience. You disagreed with both points.
My problem is that you use the term "sin" in what I perceive as a cavalier manner, and I believe your definitions are impossible to satisfy. You said:
SHADOWDANCING SAID:
"In short:
Some kind of damage caused = Sin
No damage caused to anyone = No sin.
It is that simple!
...Sins will be measured in direct proportion to the damage it produces.
My comments forced you to recant and redefine your statement to this:
SHADOWDANCING SAID:
"Fourthly, let me rephrase that equation:
Some kind of damage results out of possible knowledge that it could result (i.e. deliberate and unwarranted) = Sin
I endeavoured to have a discussion of the meaning of sin, harm, and harm justified using the example of nudity provided in this thread. You turned it into a personal attack. I, too, am posting my own position, as you are. I only asked for some rationale, religious, secular, or otherwise to support your statement.
You have responded by implying that my judgement is impaired, by stating that I am "stupid," and that I cannot comprehend that which you have said.
Perhaps along with a couple of books on ethics, Christian or otherwise, you might look up a text on courteous discourse. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 11/2/2006 10:20:45 PM | Now, men can go without a shirt in public -- but not women. Still, most women wouldn't do that -- because they need a bra or thier tits swing after 21.
Ok Here in Ontario both men and women are permitted by law to go topless in public - I guess thats what makes us different from Americans - you can only "bare arms" LOL | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 11/3/2006 12:51:47 PM | At rareorchid:
First of all, if you read my initial post (#30) in its entirety and don’t take that equation out of context – then you might see what I was trying to say there. I was not talking about killing an annoying bug or driving a SUV – I was obviously talking about wrong things that are widely accepted as evil by any secular or religious individual from any background.
We are born with basic instincts. We can pretty much figure out right from wrong. Ask a prostitute and she can tell you that - she knows what she does is wrong. Ask a drug addict and he can tell you what he does is wrong.
Now, my equation was dealing with the things that have potential to be a sin. Things that many people consider as wrong even without the help of any religious books. Among those so-called evil things – the ones that produce damage (either actively or passively) are “SINS” in my opinion. ALL sins cause some sort of damage without any exception. IMO, sins will be measured in direct proportion to the damage it produces. If damage were not present or minimal then sin would not be there or would be minimal as well. When a sin is committed – everyone involved will share the burden of that sin to his or her direct proportional involvement and thus contribution to the manifestation of that sin. Now the burden could be insignificant or it could be huge BUT it will be in proportion to the contribution of the damages.
However, my point through that equation was the following --- an act that is generally considered wrong or evil in any given culture - may yet NOT be a sin if no damage is caused by the person who commits that act. In other words – “sin” is a relative term; it is directly connected to the “damages” it produces. If you are the only one on an Island and you decide to walk around naked – but you cause no damage to any kid’s mind (because there weren’t any kids there) and no one evilly lusts after you – then you may not be committing any sin, because no damage was done. I know! At this point you will once again mention that – you are not responsible for someone else’s state of mind or their evil actions. But if God ask you to be moderate in appearance in the presence of other people but you walk around naked - then you are responsible for breaking that code of ethics. However, on a deserted island – the same act ‘of walking around naked’ – may not be a sin. ((Now, you may not believe in a God or may believe in a different kind of God or may believe in multiple gods. So, obviously we will have to wait and see what really happens after we die. So, let’s not get into who is right and who is wrong!))
Once again - of course, if you cut off the branch of a tree that is growing in a wrong direction or if you breathe oxygen - then you are doing some sort of damage. But I was NOT talking about that sort of damage in my equation. That equation was connected to the chain of thought of that particular post. I was pointing out – damages that is caused through a widely known and easy to grasp wrong action. Remember, this thread is about “nudity” and so obviously, I was talking about – “what is wrong with nudity”.
While dealing with “Nudity” – if damage is caused then it is a sin. However, if no damage is caused to anyone through ‘nudity’ – then it is not a sin. And that is just my opinion. Now I am done here!! 
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 11/4/2006 11:05:47 AM | agreeable that nudity has it's place and a public park is not that place, some people including myself shouldn't be seen in public nude. however there are places one may go(nudist camps and communities) to sun bath or live as they wish in the buff, that's rather dangerous however, things exposed get hurt sometimes, or worse!?
as for any religious value or input to this, first of all, it is my belief that religion and all pertaining to: adam and eve, theory of creation is just that. it was created to keep humans from making the same mistakes we have continued to make for eons. sure! it's possible we were created by a supreme entity, as it is possible we evolved, though less likely from suborder primates.
nudity still has it's place and time, concured   | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 11/4/2006 3:50:42 PM | I had an interesting experience around that once. I used to own a company and took my sales staff to Las Vegas for an annual trade show. We were soaking up some rays in a park and a young woman came along, casually stripped down to her panties and sunbathed with a Cosmo magazine. My guess was she was European and used to some nudity. Well, the guys all snickered and drooled and the gals all harumped, like she was a little putana ....but she was perfectly innocent.
Its really just whats in peope's minds.  | |
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obliq
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Joined: 6/16/2006
Msg: 56 | |
| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 11/6/2006 6:37:33 AM |
moodsacoustic2004: ...some people including myself shouldn't be seen in public nude.
And that there gets to the crux of the matter. Nudity is not a religious issue nor is it sinful. We were born nude, and at the end of the day, we're still nude.
Nudity is the Great Discriminator. It lays it all out bare completely short circuiting the millenia of hard work humanity has made to invalidate natural selection. When Plain Jane sees all the guys drooling over the pornstar from heaven or Humpty Dumpty sees all the gals licking their lips at the abs, pecs and buns of steel, it really doesn't help the ego or chances of those less fortunate.
When people talk about the shame of nudity, they're talking about how ashamed they are of what they have and how it doesn't measure up to others.
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Now, put that thing away before you poke somebody's eye out. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/11/2007 9:23:25 PM | Nobody feels comfortable in the nude in public.
I doubt anyone feels comfortable in the nude in front of their children or their father, mothers, brothers or sisters . From that point alone, people that claim nudity is ok and comfortable with it, They're either an exhibitionist or a sexual deviate. Even some strippers have admitted that they do not feel comfortable dancing naked.
For the respect of the community, laws are made to maintain that respect and morality which are essences of community living. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/11/2007 11:19:59 PM |
Nobody feels comfortable in the nude in public.
Wrong. As other posters before have mentioned, there are many places where people of all ages and body types ARE comfortable--and naked--in a totally non-sexual atmosphere. Parents, children, grandparents au naturel enjoying the same activities others do while clothed, with no more (possibly less) sexual deviance than general (clothed) population.
Is it for everybody? No. Nudity is one more area where a multitude of people will have a multitude of beliefs--and choices, fortunately. Don't want to be naked in public? Don't be. No one forces anyone to go to nude beaches or nudist camps, etc.
Your personal beliefs cause you to see sexual deviancy where others see only a healthy acceptance of our bodily shell. That is your choice--your right.
It does not MAKE YOU RIGHT. Big difference.
Those who believe that the human body is normal, natural, and comfortable when in an unclothed state will never hunt anyone down and force them to take off their clothes, or punish them for refusing to do so, or label them as deviant. Big difference.... | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/12/2007 12:16:44 AM | Your personal beliefs cause you to see sexual deviancy where others see only a healthy acceptance of our bodily shell.
Obviously any human being accepts his/her bodily shell. We are God's creation and need to respect it, but we also want to respect of neighbors and community for what they believe in and not offend them as they sure would not offend you. There are laws that handle moral offenses.
Feel free in your nudist camps but don't come knocking at my door naked. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/12/2007 12:17:38 AM |
Nobody feels comfortable in the nude in public.
Not true, I feel perfectly comfortable nude in public, as did all of the girls I used to work with.
I doubt anyone feels comfortable in the nude in front of their children or their father, mothers, brothers or sisters .
I feel perfectly comfortable infront of anyone nufe. Would I stand infront of my parents nude though? No, they would be offended by it and I wouldn't want to upset them, but the thought of it dosent fill me with dread.
After all, they created my body, why should I be ashamed of that?
From that point alone, people that claim nudity is ok and comfortable with it, They're either an exhibitionist or a sexual deviate.
I am by no means a sexual deviant. The fact that I prefer to walk around my house with nothing on at all times dose not make me a pervert, just someone who is more comfortable when not wearing clothes. I feel that clothing constricts me and I am only fully me when able to feel the air on my skin. It brings me no sexual gratification, nor dose the thought of being naked bring me any lustfull stirings. So I therefore am not a sexual deviant in that sense.
Even some strippers have admitted that they do not feel comfortable dancing naked.
What do you expect, everyone is difrent. Some dose not meen all. Hell, even some stripers are being forced to do it so its no wonder they would feel uncomfortable. Its only a tiny minority though, most are free and happy, certainly all the girls I worked with are.
For the respect of the community, laws are made to maintain that respect and morality which are essences of community living.
Did you completely miss all the posts on comunes and nudist beaches and such likes, or was your sentence just poorly phrased? Perhaps you ment to say...
For the respect of the christian/muslim (jews and other religions have no problems with nudity) and secular western community, laws are made to maintain that percived respect and morality which are essences of community living in the mainstream secular societies of the world.
That would have been a more apropriate phrasing I think. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/12/2007 4:10:51 AM | To see a man from a woman's view, or a woman from a man's, nude, is to have something only their future or present spouse should have. It is to cross over into what will be loved possessively by another person.
It is a suggestion sometimes for someone to appear nude. It can suggest or unintentionally invite thoughts to yourself of sex. I would not like anyone else to see my wife undressed, except in childbirth, although I don't have one. Just a hypothetical.
King David lusted beginning with his eyes in an idle moment in battle season looking at Uriah's wife washing. Uriah lost everything. It was not just for David to cross over Uriah's rights and see some things Uriah had the exclusive right to.
It can bring down to lust a young lad, who otherwise can better prepare for his wife.
I would not like other men to look at me like that, or my wife ever.
Exhibitionists are sometimes troubling to passers by, they call the cops, for their quality of life to be happy and care free. Others like it and have park orgies... I really disadmire this. I dislike to see men exhibitionists and think it better to keep from women like this. It is more thought consuming and a matter of meditation and self discipline. For one thing, porn is a professional industry selecting the best artists and models. Now I'd like any young women to think it through for mys sake with select male models, and resist, so I should for her. No swinger here. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/12/2007 6:43:38 AM | | My feeling is not that there is something wrong with nudity but with the question itself. The question implies that there is something wrong with nudity, and that is simpley insane. You are your flesh when you come into this world naked and pure, no confusion. Society grabs a hold of you instanly and creates you in the image that it sees as proper and acceptable leaving a little room for you but not much. That is the wrong here, that people are taught that their body in all its beauty is shameful and it should be covered. This is a by product of a sick mind and culture in which man views himself as filled with original sin condemed before they are even born. I live in society and will cause great suffering for myself and others if I force my views on everyone else so I wear clothes for others but not becasue my body is shameful but not to cause harm. How can you take part of God's gift and be thankful for it yet despise and hate another. A kingdom at war with itself is doomed. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/12/2007 11:49:19 AM | Zen^^^^, I really dig your views, bro...
What I cannot understand about all this is that it seems to be ok to show someone bleeding from a bullet to the head, but not a nude person...That is just sick. It is ok to for kids to see death, but not nudity? I'm sorry but that is one of the most disgusting things we have done to our children. No wonder we have so many sex predators out there...If they saw nudity every day and were taught that it was ok, maybe they wouldn't harbour all these repressed thoughts. I mean we tell them they are evil then we tell them nudity is evil. Like goes to like, people. How's this for a change? Tell the kids they are basically good from day one!!! They believe what you tell them, ya know!
I find nothing more disgusting and counter productive than preaching original sin.....
In short, there is nothing wrong with nudity....The problem lies in the heart of man.
But we're getting there.... | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/12/2007 1:16:41 PM | Nothing is wrong with nudity.
It is just that clothing is a fundamental aspect of human culture, and it has long bee nthe custom to go about dressed in public as the socially acceptable, and thus social, thing to do for a very, very, very long time. To do otherwise, even in the most "enlightenend" of cultures, could be construed as anti-social or abnormal... not so much because you're *nude*, but becasue you're acting in some way *contrary to the norm*.
Nudity only becomes a big deal once we begin to make a big deal out of it. And then, by covering it up and surrounding it in taboo, we only increase the desire for it, we don't lessen it.
As for why public nudity might be illegal, you'll have to ask those who insist that it be covered up that. Maybe spontaneous cluster-f*^ks will break out otherwise, because they've been repressing it all for so long.
As for why it might be shameful to be caught with your pants down, well, that is another matter. I have pride in my body, but certainly wouldn't want to prance about the commons in the nude; muchless amongst people whose respect I demand.
In the end, it's all a matter of culture and cultural values. | |
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Fabala
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Joined: 11/9/2006
Msg: 65 | |
| What is Wrong with Nudity? (long)
Posted: 1/12/2007 1:36:42 PM |
We covet what we see. If a woman wears loose fitting clothes that don't reveal her figure, if she covers her hair, if she covers her face, we cannot see her, therefore we cannot covet her physical form.
Yes, we have the ability to control our inclinations and desires and we do not have to act on what we feel. God cares as much about intent as he(she) does about action.
I don't want the image of my hot naked neighbor popping into my head while I pray.
There is also an argument regarding achievement level phenomenom.
In our society people actually wear very little in the way of clothes. Hemlines are at the top of the thighs, pants top out just above the pubic bone, plunging neck lines are common. The human body is supposed to visually stimulate and excite a sexual response. We see sexually suggestive clothing (or lack thereof) constantly. This can lead do a dulling of the visual sense and a need for excessive stimulation including and beyond the visual to achieve sexual satisfaction, leading to further erosion of moral values.
Bottom line, God cares about what's in our hearts as well as our actions. Remember, and I can't emphasize this enough, hence the redundancy, we covet what we see.
You know, if a woman truly wishes to cover up I say “you go girl!”. However, …
How come women are the only ones who "should" cover up? Why aren't men covered?
I understand that being male, you might not get hot over men’s bodies. However, I love the vision of my hot neighbour while I'm praying. It reminds me that I am a whole human. Not whole at certain times... under controlled times and planned times... but all the time. And, I am grateful for it.
Perhaps, when travel isn’t so easy and people are not allowed to view or read books such archaic expectations regarding the human form (women’s only, of course) could be gotten away with. However, the planet is filled with peoples of various beliefs. One cannot expect the whole planet to cover up because a certain portion of the male population cannot control themselves, even during prayer (it’s just too darn easy to blame those women and their bodies, isn’t it).
No wonder we have folks trying to ram their beliefs down the throats of others, whether subtly or directly, as in the case of murder. Long-standing “issues” such as those with the human form have been imbedded into the consciousness of some so severely that they can no longer function in society. ..let alone in an intimate and sexual context.
By function, I reference being able to do regular day-to-day things such as pray, without blaming women or women’s bodies for the images that pop into your head. By blame, I reference declarations that it must be the women who are held responsible, instead of the guilty party, and forced either through coercion or law to “cover up”. By coercion, I infer beatings, pressure (about what is a “proper” woman, as described by a male), fear of rejection from family and place of worship, and even death.
Don’t get me wrong here, there are many people I ‘d rather not see in bathing suits let alone naked. Ewww. However, their right to wear that bathing suit or be naked - is theirs. I just want all the pretty men naked.
Where and when I choose to celebrate either facet of my humanness, is my choice and responsibility, and responsibility includes respect. I feel the last thing a civilized society needs is someone who is so de-sensitized to the human form that they are unable to control themselves at merely the thought of the human form.
Him: I know I exploded semen all over my new pants upon seeing your ankle and cannot function any more today, but,.. Gee honey, was it good for you too?… and could you hurry up and wash my pants? I’ve got a game with the boys tonight. By the way, did you get that promotion so I’ll have more money coming in?
So how come women are the only ones you feel "should" cover up? Why aren't men covered… including their sexy heads?
Oh my stars! Better go cover up, I get so darn free with my words and.. well, everything, when I feel a draft somewhere on my skin.
Fab | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/12/2007 2:35:30 PM | | I mean, hey, don't get me wrong here! I live in Canada and it gets pretty bloody cold. I wear clothes all the time, but that don't make it wrong, what's underneath, lol! | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity? (long)
Posted: 1/12/2007 2:58:13 PM | You have picked a Muslim's comment and that is quite interesting. Praying needs focus for one thing and you are not yourself apathetic to the sight of a naked man - definitly would deconcentrate you if you did. Your feelings are identical as those of men and even stronger I will say.
Walking around naked around the apartment, tell me, what is the state of your white sofa that you sit on naked, is. I would not take it for free even if its value was a million bucks.
What people are asking for is respect, you are not capabale of doing that, For you, you must impose your doctrine of nudity to those that respect themselves.
I am proud of my human senses, they are beautiful and I like to keep private and dear to me, for myself and my mate.
We're talking nudity and you're talking about a free choice a woman makes. I am talking about muslim women. Their desire to cover is to please God and it is their free will to obey God and their right to choose. In what do they actually bother you? Do they offend you?
Hair is the crown of a person. It makes a woman attractive, viewed and treated as a sex object by certain type of men, women need more protection than a man. We respect and honor women far more than you are respected. Why do Hindus dress the way they do, why do the sikh (men and women) cover their hair at all times, why do monks cover the way they do, why why why, why do women cover in Islam, read about Islam and you will find the answers that will make you cry.
Why dont men cover? Men have no need to make up, pluck eyebrows and pots of paint on their face. Men are confident - they are the ones fishing.
Why do nuns cover???? Because they follow the way of female descency that existed for centuries until a few decades ago. A descent woman will always be respected but one that love to expose herself will only be treated as a piece of meat because that is the exact thought a man will have "She wants it" he'll say.
I am not sure why I am on this thread at all because descency and respect don't seem to fit some people's agenda in life. I have far more serious dealings in my life and there are far more important issues we're faced with in this world.
Nudists are perverts in disguise. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity? (long)
Posted: 1/12/2007 3:26:44 PM | I assume that you are looking for a religious response to this question. There is nothing morally wrong with nudity and I don't think the topic is even brought up in the Bible. Religious art down the ages has always included nudity and eroticism.
We don't go nude in public because it is not culturally acceptable. Why is that? From what I can tell, no one really knows why that is. But I'll have a guess at some reasons:
1) It is more practical to separate the eroticism of a naked body from everyday 'business', whether you were a caveman or a 21st century dude. I think this feeling runs deep.
2) The naked body is not always pretty and so clothes are more aesthetically pleasing.
Personally, I like the convention of people wearing clothes and wouldn't want it any other way. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/13/2007 12:33:07 AM | Post 21:
Nudity is the Naked Truth and we are a society bent on lies and deception.
These 15 words deserve to be in a book of famous quotations. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/13/2007 6:04:59 AM | | Christian men are possessive about their women, and vice versa. So want them covered. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/13/2007 2:17:00 PM |
These 15 words deserve to be in a book of famous quotations.
They certainly are a reflection of deep thought and the evils of men.
Christian men are possessive about their women, and vice versa. So want them covered.
That's a pretty bigoted remark. I would hope that you are not possessive to the extent that you would not wish for me to view the remarkable attraction of your woman's naked form. I can certainly tell that you think there is something wrong with being Christian, and concede that possesiveness is one of the major reasons for having your mate cover up. But to state unequivocally that this is a Christian trait? I think not. It is more a lack of communication of intent between a man and a woman, and an air of distrust and deception that pervades our existance, and reveals itself quickly when the form of a beautiful body exposes itself before an evil mind. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/13/2007 10:56:46 PM | Anything of my wife, as a wife, I would want exclusively, part of trust and fidelity. And any thoughts she has or things she sees, I would trust her to be accountable, honest and open, as Solomon's said, "guard your heart, for from there are the wellsprings of life." And my heart and hers would be close and married.
All of us have weakness, and we should, "keep away from what causes you to sin." The eye is a big gate to the heart.
Paul taught that women should keeps their head's covered. But not their bodies, laughable.
Yet back to the mains of this thread, some people naturally hate nudity and are shocked by it. It is unfair on them if people expose themselves to them. Fair enough I suppose that nudists have their magazines and speacial areas set aside for their recreations. | |
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| What is Wrong with Nudity?
Posted: 1/14/2007 5:08:12 AM | | Humans are incapable of not feeling envy, or of hiding self-cnsciousness. Particularly in Western society. Some parts of the world don't mind being nekkid... but here, in the West, at this point in time, it'd be a TERRIBLE idea. | |
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