| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 2:28:38 PM | | bulldogmedic I disagree, if you know any medical people personally they CAN test for brain function and cognition with a myriad of tests. Cognitive ability means you can voluntarily perform certain actions for example swallowing. We have reflexive movements like blinking that just happen. And comparing someone who's mentally ill to someone who has a malfunctioning phsyiologically damaged brain is so apples and oranges. A mentally ill person is not put on life support because of their mental illness. If you can't be aware and respond to your surroundings, what quality of life do you have? You're basically a body in a bed, hardly a human existence. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 2:36:48 PM | "Imagine someone becoming mentally ill, and their spouse saying "she wouldn't want to live like this, but she won't tell you that because she is crazy." "
that analagy is illogical. terry schiavo wasn't crazy, she was braindead. crazy people can still speak and do things with their bodies. terry schiavo was a vegtable. her husband spoke for her because she had no means of communication. what makes you think its ok to keep someone like that alive when they expressly stated it was against their wishes? | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 3:01:30 PM | | snow BTW I totally agree. I just think there's a certain discomfort as she still was technically alive, we should be uncomfortable and certainly not pull away life support without serious consideration. But over the years, we've developed our technology so much that we can do this with more confidence and surety than ever before. It's just a shame that her birth family still refuses after the autopsy to acknowledge that she wouldn't get better. God could part the skies and tell them, but they won't accept it. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 6:36:22 PM | i'll answer your question baroness... if anyone is in need help that involves saving their life, it should be administered unless the person has indicated otherwise. life saving techniques in an emergency are far different than administering those techniques and then finding out there's no hope for recovery and allowing someone like your cousin to remain in a vegetative state after you've "saved his life". no one knows what damage is caused in certain situations requiring resusitation. you may not know for a while if someone will recover... i think some 17 years was long enough for terry's husband to know that there was nothing more that could be done for her and he made the right choice in not prolonging her life.
entire wings are devoted to those who will never recover at long term recovery facilities for people who have no one to speak for them & who has anything to gain from sustaining their lives knowing they will never recover? pharmacuetical companies, doctors, nurses, hospitals, insurance companies and whoever i've left out. guess who suffers... people like my mother who was in desperate need of a bed in a long term recovery facility and couldn't get one because of all of the wings devoted to those that will never live life as they did before they got to the vegetative state that landed them in a bed someone who would recover could use!
the shindlers were selfish in thinking it would be appropriate for them to trample the vows their daughter and her husband took when they got married so they could parade their daughter around on tv for sympathy and for what purpose in the long run? they'd surely die before she ever would... who would take care of terry once they died? TAXPAYERS!
i could give a crap if you've worked with people like terry.... you got your Phd from what drive through window? medical professionals made their findings public and they agreed with the husband, get over it already cause it ain't bringin' terry back and i hope it sets a precidence for others who have to go through this with their loved ones.
my son knows it's ok to let me go & it warms my heart to know he wouldn't humiliate me the way terry's family did her in her situation. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 7:16:38 PM | I too, am from Michigan, do you really think Dr. K would have propped her up on a couple of sticks and let her drool for 15 years first before he off's her. Jennifer Granholm rocks.
The muck and mire of 12 years of Fatso Engler will be a tough dig......but, she'll do it. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 7:23:12 PM | Terri had no way to recover, EVER! She was unresponsive to everything, her brain was dead,
Terri did have options for recovery, including physician's opinion that she could eat on her own, without a feeding tube. This was rejected by her husband. Also, she was not "unresponsive" as you claim. Maybe you meant she was not conscious, which while very debatable, you should really choose your words more carefully.
Btw, if her "brain" was dead, she would not have been able to breath, blink, digest food, and circulate oxygenated blood throughout her body. Please, take a basic anatomy class.
she was uncapable of thought and sight.
Well, there it is. God has spoken.
you'll forgive my sarcasm, but you have no idea if she was or wasn't capable of thought. All we have are doctors OPINIONS.
if you know any medical people personally they CAN test for brain function and cognition with a myriad of tests.
Well, I like to think I fall into that "medical people" category, and I am well aware of the limits of what tests can show. There is NO test that can prove what someone is, or isn't, thinking.
Cognitive ability means you can voluntarily perform certain actions for example swallowing.
No. "Cognitive" is awareness with perception, reasoning and judgement, intuition, and memory; The mental process by which knowledge is acquired. It has nothing to do with physical actions, and their are plenty of consciously aware people on feeding tubes.
that analagy is illogical. terry schiavo wasn't crazy, she was braindead. crazy people can still speak and do things with their bodies.
Terri Schiavo could still verbalize and do things with her body.
terry schiavo was a vegtable. her husband spoke for her because she had no means of communication. what makes you think its ok to keep someone like that alive when they expressly stated it was against their wishes?
I don't think it's ok to do that to someone who expressly stated that as their wish. I have high reservations that she did, tho. Terri's husband spent the first few years trying every thing he could to try to rehabilitate Terri, despite the fact that he was told she would never get much better. it was only after he tried a highly risky botched operation, which resulted in a lawsuit and $$$ for Terri and spouse, that he suddenly remembered an evening in front of the TV where Terri casually mentioned she would want to die. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 7:52:54 PM | "Terri did have options for recovery, including physician's opinion that she could eat on her own, without a feeding tube."
Which the autopsy proved otherwise. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 7:55:55 PM | | Guess some people just don't believe in medical SCIENCE. If you've having a heart attack and you don't trust the doctors opinion based on a EKG, you may very well end up DEAD. And now we have forensic proof, so it's no longer anyone's opinion now, is it? | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 8:28:22 PM | | The autopsy only showed more visibly what was pretty much already accepted. It didn't prove anything besides how much of her brain matter had atrophied. You people still don't realize that there are NO absolutes in this world, medical or otherwise. Not only do I believe in "medical science" but I'm smart enough to realize just how little we know, and what our limitations are in those fields. There is no forensic proof that Terri Schiavos was incapable of conscious thought, or that she couldn't eat without a feeding tube. There is only only the likelihood based on opinion. Get riled up, and start insulting if you must, but it's obvious that you have little knowledge of this subject. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 8:33:41 PM | We have to go into the autopsy with the science we have.
Regards Dr. Rumsfeld | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 8:36:40 PM | Exactly. ^^^
And science changes, theories change, and our opinions change. I'm not saying that Terri Schiavo was never a "vegetable", I never have. I'm merely pointing out that all of the armchair neurologists on PoF need to realize, and understand, what these results really mean. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/16/2005 9:03:50 PM | There are absolutes. Look at the other cases, Quinlan and others. Science does not change, what we know and discover changes. Scientific facts, not theories are things that can be proven. An atrophied brain, we know enough about the brain years ago to know without a doubt that a brain that weighs half of what a functioning,cognitive (maybe that's something you need to look up, you don't seem to have a grasp of the definition) brain weighs cannot possibly function and support life as we know it.
Me? I know what life is and that isn't any life I would want my kids know that. If that were me, it wouldn't have taken 15 years to pull the plug, my family knows that and I trust they will. Anyone with a shred of common sense would not want to exist in a vegetative state, and put their loved ones through a prolonged grief such as that.
If you want to have a rational argument, you have to divorce your emotions from it. This is emotional crap, ignoring the leaps that science has made in understanding and discovering how our bodies work and function.
If you're lucky, then somewhere sometime you won't have to depend on science to decide how to cure you, treat you or fix you, but you know what, you're probably already alive thanks to the science that you want to slam. You were vaccinated, otherwise you couldn't have gone to school, Salk and many other scientists through their work already saved all your ungrateful lives through developing vaccinations for diseases that would have killed most of us. Your undying gratitude is duly noted (sarcasm off). | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/17/2005 6:47:03 AM | Here here! I'm with Bucs on this one. I firmly believe that Terry's family wasn't keeping her alive for her sake, but for theirs. They simply didn't want to lose a daughter, even one who is prone to random fits of laughter, tears and a whole lotta drooling.
For those who believe in faith and "God's Will," it isn't God's Will that has kept Terry alive all these years. It has been science. Ventilators, respirators, feeding tubes, medications.. if the law of nature had been applied, without all the "modern miracles," Terry would have passed away peacefully 15 years ago and met her maker, instead of laying there in a hospital bed unable to feel the sunshine on her face, unable to hear anything for hours at a time but the "hawth hiss beep" of all the machinery around her.
Medical science is wonderful, and great leaps and advances have been made to extend and improve the quality of life. But where was the improvement here? That's what it comes down to... not just life or being alive, but quality of life. There's no guesswork or "armchair" diagnosis involved when determining an atrophied brain leaves little chance for any recovery of a normal life. Every argument I've seen her for sustenance of life is emotion based. It's great that you're passionate about life. Great. But aren't there starving Cambodians that could use your spare change so they could eat full course meals for "only pennies a day?" Wouldn't your passion be better served to help that cause, or countless others?
She's gone. She's at peace. Let her go. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/17/2005 6:56:19 AM | | you're exactly right agstang... at least now the autopsy report is out there for people to read. i know that's all i wanted to see once she was gone and the confirmation of her medical state eased my mind because we all now know the husband did the right thing. i sure hope he feels vindicated. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/17/2005 7:04:03 AM | | I don't think it was about vindication for him. He just couldn't bear the fact that his wife would remain in that state for years, trapped in that body. I mean, the guy was offered 1 Million Dollars to walk away, and he didn't. Every penny he received in the malpractice settlement years ago has gone toward her medical expenses... and I can only imagine what the attorney fees have cost. Not so much vindicated, but probably more relieved that it's over. The sooner her parents accept this and move on, the better for them. They lost their daughter 15 years ago. They've been denied their healing time. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/17/2005 2:53:52 PM | | bulldog All disagreeing aside, I think awareness which is cognition which is knowledge, but awareness for me sums it up succintly. If I can't be aware of my surroundings, my body, my environment that to me is NOT life, even if I have some bodily functions. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/17/2005 3:07:54 PM | Well, I understand that's your opinion, but I could say that an insect is not aware of it's surroundings, but reacts only on instinct. It's still alive, though, right?
My only point is that no one but Terri Schiavo knows what, or if, she felt and thought in that state. None of us can say "she felt this" or "she couldn't feel that", because we were not her. Medical science is still a long way from knowing all their is to know abot the brain. We are only now discovering the intricacies of it. Did you know that some people live healthy productive lives with a healthy percentage of brain matter missing? Anyway, it's not about my personal beliefs on euthanasia. And, when people start insulting me, because I use the correct definitions of words, I do get irritated, because my point was lost on them. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/17/2005 3:13:10 PM | | bulldog If you correct someone's vocabulary or use of words, because it was used incorrectly the point may already be lost. Words used improperly don't carry the same meaning, so what you say doesn't have the full affect. If I insulted you I'm sorry, I don't recall specifically what you're referring to, but it was not intended. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/17/2005 3:33:25 PM | I wish her(Schiavo) family could let the poor woman rest in peace,I also wish politicians would stay out of peoples personal lives.I for one wouldn't like to live(if you can call it that) in her condition for 15 years,if I'm brain dead pull the plug.
If anything good can come from this is every adult should have a living will and power of attorney. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/17/2005 7:16:53 PM | | i doubt we'll ever know how terry's husband felt agstang but there's probably a whole lot of everything goin' on in his head at this point. hopefully he'll rest soon and be able to go on with his life. i think vidication came to my mind because he's been fighting this fight all these years and repeating the same thing over and over to terry's parents only for his words to fall on deaf ears. if i were him i'd feel pretty vindicated to now have everything in writting supporting what i knew to be fact based on the medical team involved in this case. vidication can be bitter sweet... | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/17/2005 7:32:22 PM | | sactown Her family has made this their own insane personal crusade. I don't believe for one second it's for the greater good either, they have a personal agenda. They're going to be suing over the autopsy report. Suing who I don't remember, I was in the bathroom hurling these people make me ill. (joking about the hurling, but I felt like it) There is much more going on here than meets the eye and myself and others have pulled up info on this so called foundation, they're interested in garnering media attention and making a buck one way or another, since they couldn't get their greedy little hands on any of the settlement money. I may post more later, as an example, at her memorial service (ONE of them anyway) they were asking for donations to their foundation, which has already been fined by the state of Florida for operating illegally (yes I have the letter) anyway for donations to THEM, they're the ONLY board members, in lieu of flowers, and had a tent set up for media. For their daughter's memorial service, their foocus instead of remembering Teri, public invited, tent provided for media and collecting money which goes straight to the family. If that doesn't arrouse a tremendous amount of suspicion, I don't know what would. They're interested in the ashes, I wouldn't put it past them to sell vials of them on EBay!! Sorry, this lady's BS meter is on overload. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/18/2005 8:04:29 PM | The only winners here are the attorneys.
But I'm tellin' ya, if Howard Dean ever takes up any of my causes, please... pull my plug! Even if I don't have a plug, find one... stick it in me, and then yank it out. I don't care if I'm reciting shakespeare and playing a ukelele at the same time...if Howard Dean is involved... declare me an idiot vegetante and let me go. For the love of God... let me go! | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/19/2005 4:49:53 AM | But Dr. Frist said she was responsive. | |
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| Terry Schiavo
Posted: 6/19/2005 9:26:44 AM | | as responsive as a spoon set aside you dinner plate waiting to be used. | |
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