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| Women killed chivalry
Posted: 4/22/2007 8:29:12 AM | Women killed chivalry. Feminists and liberals favour hostility and suspicion between the genders, for various reasons. These days, a man who holds a door open for a women is likely to get a dirty look, a kick in the nads or maybe a lawsuit.
To bring back chivalry, women need to:
* accept having men treat them with respect and courtesy
* respond favourably to gentlemanly behaviour
* stop endlessly trashtalking men
* be just a bit ladylike
Being ladylike is not acting the helpless damsel in distress; it is behaving in a responsible, courteous, adult manner. A bit of that would go a long way. | |
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| Women killed chivalry
Posted: 4/22/2007 9:48:02 AM | Since we've devolved into history "lessons" here, remember there was a time not so long ago when neither men nor women had any "rights" depending on their position in the social stratum. If you weren't noble born, you were a peon, and I gather from the history I've read, you got peed on a lot.
We are also, as has been pointed out, misusing the term "chivalry".
One Code of Chivalry I've found says:
There were several lists written down during the Middle Ages. One example code can be found in the book Chivalry by 19th century French historian Leon Gautier[3]
* Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions.
* Thou shalt defend the Church.
* Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
* Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
* Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
* Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy.
* Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
* Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pledged word.
* Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone.
* Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.
Needless to say, with one notable exception coming to mind, chevaliers were men.
Perhaps it's good that chivalry is dead, based on some of the above. Just a shame that some women don't appreciate courtesy when it's offered. Never been slapped for opening a door for a man. Not always thanked, but never slapped. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 4/22/2007 2:04:56 PM | Your arguments are illogical and unsupported, and you contradict yourself. "Many" colleges were closed to women, but some were not. There were women's colleges, and there were men's colleges, and there were coed colleges. What women in general and feminists in particular have failed to understand about the education system and workplace from early on, is that it is COMPETITIVE, as pointed out by an earlier poster. Women who went to college and established careers in a "man's world" had to compete at the same level as men with no handicap. The men then treated them as competition, and the women took it as the men being mean to them. Were they singled out as being women? Yes, because that was the most convenient avenue of attack. Men in competetion attack each other at whatever is the most obvious weak spot: financial background, social status, academic performance, etc. It's just like that game of neighborhood football with the neighborhood kids. There's always a girl who wants to play, but you're not allowed to hit her as hard as you would the other boys because she'll cry about you being mean and picking on her because she's a girl.
It wasn't men who gave women the vote? Then how did it happen? If only men could vote, how was the amendment made to allow women to vote, if a majority of men didn't vote for it? If I'm not mistaken, an amendment to the Constitution has to be passed by a 2/3 majority in both houses of Congress, then ratified by all the states. Weren't all of those voting members men in 1920?
Women were not considered "separate entities" from their husbands because society was based upon Christian morality, which teaches that a husband and wife become one flesh upon marriage, and that the husband is head of the household. The family unit was considered sacred and government or other external interference was minimized. That covers the reason for most of the other things you cited as well. Were there abuses? Of course. No system can fully overcome the tendency of humans to be selfish and evil. But I certainly don't see our present situation as better, when parents are afraid to discipline their children for fear that they'll be taken away by the SS, and husbands are routinely arrested and labeled "abusers" for things like holding a wife's wrists so she can't hit him anymore. "Battered women" have been used as a tool by feminists to undermine the traditional family structure and destroy the "patriarchy" without discretion, pity, or remorse. The chivalric man abhors true violence against women with all his being, but most of what is cited as such now is manipulation and spin by those with an agenda.
Family decisions were made back then by families, not government social agencies with way too much power and a political agenda. In most cases, the boys were sent to school in preference to the girls because it was expected that the boys would have to support their families throughout their lives. If a woman's higher education was viewed as a "waste" it was because it was assumed that she would stay home and care for the children once they were born, and then all the money put into her higher education would not have been a good investment. It was not because women were considered as having less intrinsic value, or that they were intentionally kept ignorant and oppressed. On the contrary, it was expected that a woman would be educated and informed at a comparable level of the class she married into, and be able to engage in intelligent conversation with her husband's peers. Perhaps not in their specialized field of work, but in general liberal arts, current events, politics, history, etc.
Men don't want partners who are unhappy because they don't have the same rights as men. Men want wives who are happy because they are loved, protected, and cared for, and who appreciate all the things that their men do for them. Feminism has not given us partners who are happy because they have equal rights. It has given us ever more demanding shrews who are unhappy at the core of their being, don't know why, and take it out on us because it's got be our fault simply because we are men, and everything is our fault.
I acknowledge that their are different types of feminists, some of which are worse than others. The least offensive kind is the ifeminst, represented by Wendy McElroy. Most women who think of themselves as feminists are, as you said, mainly interested in fair wages, job opportunities, etc. But, as I said earlier, that's only the cover, and the surface level of what's going on. Most party members in Germany didn't know about the Final Solution. But even those who are not on the extreme of insanity like the ones I quoted above have a basic world view that is incompatible with that of the chivalrist. Feminism teaches that men and women are basically the same, as expressed by J.S. Mill (a man, by the way) and that any apparent differences are social constructs. Some feminists in recent years have been forced to modify this position somewhat by the advance of science which has shown significant differences beyond the obvious physical ones, but most are still in denial about even that. Chivalry is a product of Christian belief, which teaches that man was created first and woman was created to be his helpmate. It assumes that the man is to be the head of the family, and its protector and provider, and that the woman is to be afforded extra priveleges because of her femininity. Yes, the Bible actually used the phrase "the weaker sex". These two philosophies are diametrically opposed and irreconcilable. You can have feminism (theoretically, though it hasn't seemed to work out that way so far) with courtesy, respect, and consideration, but you absolutely CANNOT have it with chivalry. You have to choose. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 4/22/2007 6:54:02 PM | | That was so well written and expressed in a way that even the slower of women could understand. I admit I have been guilty of so many of those things and I appreciate you making me aware of the errors in my ways. Hooray for all the gentlemen and hooray for the women who can maybe learn through your words to love them. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 4/23/2007 5:53:42 AM | no you ladies didnt kill it.its just men these days choose to disrespect women rather than go through the whole process of seducing her and stuff.we are still out here its just that most women who say they want chivalrous men only talk or mingle with the jocks so to say.most of us are the smart guys you see walking around or studying.dont think you killed chivalry we are just overrun by high ego's and jerks but we are out there never fear.  | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 4/23/2007 8:53:02 AM | wow.
I have read most of the pages in this, but its 4:30 am and i need to decide to read more posts or get some sleep before my 9 am meeting....
seriously. this is one of the best threads i have read in a while. i didnt really think that there were so many other men out there in the world that felt the same way i did. i thought most of the other guys were a$$es but i have a slight bit differnet view now. THANKS GUYS !
as to any women reading this... this should be a standard and required text in every school from this point forward in time. it is filled with solid and accurate info that needs to be properly addressed. but let me add a few things.
Facts:
1) I have had more than one woman flip me off for opening a door for her.
2) After i opend my car door for a woman, she grabbed it out of my hand, slammed it shut and then opened again on her own, got in and then slammed it shut behind her. (forget the fact that i open the door for anyone that is a passenger with me)
3) I have had more than one woman give me a twisted stink face and say "get lost looser" for simply asking her to dance.
4) i have had more than one woman completely ignore me, but then immediately defend their actions plus get verbally abusive when i told them they were being rude.
if you want chivalry back ? ACT LIKE IT !
it starts with BASIC RESPECT and grattitude.
Some HINTS for a starting point :
1) when someone write to you online and says hi. i like your profile, great smile, great photos. i love what you had to say about _______ . i might be interested in talking to you more.
a) the LEAST you can do is write back and say "thank you", "thanks, no thanks", or "get lost looser," but SOME type of acknoledgement for their efforts is actually ecpected. its the only way to know for a fact where you stand.
b) acknoledge them for the time and effort they took to give you a compliment. you might be pretty and that might be the only reason they wrote to you. but they CHOOSE you. not the girl in the profile next to yours.
c) if the message was not received well because it was preverted or such.... as one previous poster said, PUNISH them. do not accpet rude and crude attitude. write back and tell them in no uncertain terms it was un acceptable. if it goes unpunished, it will continue with someone else.
2) STOP rewarding guys that are a$$es. if they treat you like crap, tell them it is un acceptable. if you jsut ignore them and stop talking to them, it is the same as rewarding them. without punishment there is no acknowledgemet of the wrong that is done. nothing will ever change without corrective action.
3) SAY "THANK YOU." sometimes when someone tells you something nice like a compliment, its just that and nothing more. say thank you. if it then turns rude after, referr to #2 above.
4) the quality of the person that i am has absolutly nothing to do with : the type of car i drive, style of clothes i wear, size of my bank account, if i ride public transportation, if i have a platinum card, have "gold fronts", have 24" rims, wear Gucci sunglasses, have a little extra weight on the mid section, how smooth of a BS line i can throw at you, if i wear a suit to work every day, if i have a college degree, if i wear beat up sneakers.
4ish) the quality of my personality may be : reflected in the fact that i work with the homeless, teach kids, volunter with organizations, give blood, help my neighbors, treat my mother nice, have not tried to get you into bed on the first date. by the people i sourround myslef with.
5) stop yielding your power as a weapon. men might be stronger, faster, etc... but most of us acknowlegde that we are really not the ones in charge. stop taking the fact that we are chasing you for companionship and using it against us. stop toying with us. stop pitting one of us agianst the other. stop seeing how much you can get out of us before we give up.
6) stop doing things taht draw attention to yourselves, and then getting upset when you get the results you were trying to accomplish. for instance. dont wear a t shirt taht has something strange written on it, or shorts with words across your butt, then get upset when we stop and try to read what it says (staring at your chest ro A$$)
7) stop wearing clothes that make you look like a hooker, then getting upset when someone tries to pick you up or ask you out. if your advertising yourself, then take responsibility for your actions and realize your going to get that attention you set out to get. but it may not be by mr. GQ, but a normal guy that was really impressed with ALL that you had to show.
8) stop talking about equal rights, but then complain if you might have to pay for dinner once because we forgot our wallets.
9) STOP with the tireless list of double standards.
a) Stop posting ads that say, "no picture, no reply" when you yourself dont have a photo posted.
b) start returning some phone calls when i leave message after message, and stop whineing if i miss one of your calls.
c) stop complaining that i ride the bus, when you dont have a car either.
d) stop expecting that we go out to eat every night OR stop complainig because i cant save any money.
e) if i have to get a 2nd job to suport your spending habbit, stop complaining that i dont spend enough time with you.
i can go on with a lot more... but, maybe some other men can instead add to these with their own experiences.
Thanks again guys for a great thread. and thanks OP for the initial question. i truly hope you pass this on to other women that REALLY want to see a change. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 4/23/2007 3:25:05 PM | | The issue is not called chivalry, IMO, it is called honor, by both men and women. Honor which comes alongside responsibility for commitments undertaken, which comes alongside the wisdom needed for one to undertake commitments one can deliver upon rather than resort to later excuses, etc etc. Honor, responsibility, commitment and wisdom, IRRESPECTIVE of gender, IMO. That is what is missing today. Who killed it? That is not the main issue. The main issue is who can bring it back. Demand and provide honor, responsibility, commitment and wisdom. Ain't easy in these volatile, crazy/bonkers times. | |
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| Women killed chivalry
Posted: 4/24/2007 2:10:37 PM | Really? I didn't know what, En Garde. That's neat. I had always thought that the idea of chivalry was made up by poets in pubs way back in the middle ages (or, that's what the show "Highlander" says, by its character Nethos).
I'm thinking though, that that's more to do with the "knight templar" thing, right? Weren't they the martial order to the church, akin to the concept of a paladin? That's what this code sounds like.
I also believe there was otherwise a set of 12 or so specific "knightly virtues" if we are to assume that to be chivalrous is to be knightly. | |
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| Women killed chivalry
Posted: 4/24/2007 5:24:50 PM | | Chivalry derives from the French chevaliar ... a knight ... so you're correct. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 4/24/2007 5:55:39 PM | | In my view, we also let it happen, so women can't take all the blame. If we want to bring it back, we should practise it in our own lives and not be afraid to tell other men as well. A good beginning could be to live a basic standard of respect one to another. | |
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