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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 52 | |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 12:13:23 PM |
no one really knows what goes behind the closed doors.
And those doors are often the metaphorical ones. What is there in his mind, actually? (Or hers? just to be fair ... which reminds me: I do not have problems with the doors opened for me nor opening the doors for gentlemen... who is the nearest one, acts.)
Not to mention my lovely knight pulling the chair for me and forgetting to push it back... | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 5:58:49 PM | Campanula,
OP is original post(er)
Ousu,
Yeah, if there were any mens' studies classes available, it's no surprise that they would be critiques of men. But hey, the radical left doesn't run post-secondary education of course 
As for the rest of your post...well bingo...THAT'S exactly the kind of thinking we're discussing here. What you just said is that "Sure he held the door for you...but he probably did it for "x" reason(s)" The action itself isn't good enough. You need to know the motivation behind it. The cynicism comes through loud and clear and we're wary of it.
Guess we can't win then really ? I mean, does somebody have a mind reading device somewhere that will allow us to determine why somebody does something ? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 6:26:56 PM | I think in many cases "femi-nazis" killed "chivalry" as it was a symbol of making them the weaker sex...which of course they arent..but they felt a need to destroy the image anyway.
This and so many issues are all related to the idea that women want men to be some other way than we are..
But its one of those silly human things in that women will say they want this characteristic or that quality in a man and then date the opposite.
We men do this too of course..saying we want some "independant" modern woman and then date "bimbettes".
Women have been busy trying to get the external symbols of "equality" (like equal pay etc)..which is good,
but often its done by destroying any "bastion" of stereo typical maleness: all male clubs, chivalry, manlyness...which is bad..
In the process the radical feminist has tryed to eliminate all images and symbols that in any way relate to "maleness" and/or supposed oppression of women by men.
Something to remember:
Never listen to a woman when shes telling you how to be a man.
Be yourself (wether that includes chivalry or not) and let god sort em out.. | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 55 | |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 6:55:55 PM | Gotapulse :)
if there were any mens' studies classes available, it's no surprise that they would be critiques of men.
I just answered to someone's pondering. Without more specific listing, as far as I understood it correctly, some of those are approaching the topic from men's point of view, studied by men themselves or together with women.
iBut hey, the radical left doesn't run post-secondary education of course
a) Radical left, weak excuse for many things - how does it differ from radical right? Funny you mention that to me since mostly I have been "accused" here to be a communist-socialist-left winger, this speed I might find myself located in the golden middle way (or wasn't it personal?) b) post-secondary education? Another thing to be bashed on your continent? I thought the lectures all over the world are open for everybody; information is available to whomever interested in it. (Sorry, this part I did not buy. If you do not feel for courses mentioned here, you are a) not interested or b) lazy. Reading you here in the forums I would pick the option a). The rest is BS :)
The action itself isn't good enough. You need to know the motivation behind it.
Wouldn't you? Did you stop to my first post here? If you read further, you know already I would thank you when you opened a door for me, and I would expect you to notice it somehow (nod of the head would do). -The question - for me - is not about little, basically meaningless gestures IF there is no some kind of kindness, some feeling, behind them (not a feeling towards a woman or man but a person). We can train even a monkey to open a door and it does not make it chivalrous.
does somebody have a mind reading device somewhere that will allow us to determine why somebody does something ?
Never underestimate the instincts.
Guess we can't win then really ?
It is not a war or a battle you either win or lose. I (truly) believe the only way is just to be sincere yourself - without learnt manners. If you feel at certain moment that you want to express your admiration/liking/whatever, do it then but not so that you feel that you have to. -- Like a present: it is not a present anymore when it is given just because "of course I have to give you a present since it is your birthday", its value is in the thought why you give it ("cause I like you and want to delight you")
Do you see what I mean or you still see me as an "old evil hag" (which I am, a bit but hopefully not THAT evil? :) | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 7:05:37 PM | Men, like women are looking for acceptance and respect. Not really all that different, I truly believe we're all more alike than different. On an individual basis, time, attention and understanding usually yield good results in understanding anyone. Communication works, too.  | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 7:12:32 PM |
^Hmmmm...ya know, I'm not sure about the OP but I do kinda like the idea of carrying around a sword and wearing a suit of armour at work.
Nah, gotapulse, it would be too sweaty, and heavy. The sword part sounds interesting. Bet if you worked in a kitchen, you could make fast work of chopping celery. The cuts would be coarse, of course. 
OT: Chivlary is not dead. It is just dormant for the moment. Some still practise it, as you see in many previous posts. Kudos to those living with grace, consideration and compassion.
Feminism was never about 'man-hating'. That is such a misconception.
(Although, I admit those who hated men, latched onto the ideas and twisted them. But they are fewer than most think. And those man-haters, brought out the woman-haters, as well, polarizing the sexes. But before feminism, the sexes fought, just about other things. The more things change, the more they stay the same.)
Feminism was about equality in the workplace and providing choices. It was about not letting talents and brains go to waste. I always thought that was good for men, too. By opening up choices for people (women AND men) you are putting skills to the best use, thereby creating a better society. With some of the issues and problems facing this planet, I would like to think our best minds (male AND female) are at work trying to solve them.
*sigh* | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 7:52:57 PM | I havnt read all the reponses, just the first page yet I feel a need to say something.
Some guys have done notthing to help the fight the death of Chivalry. But also I personally believe women fought to have it killed and men simply retreated from the line.
So yes in essence women killed it.
I see it this way because of the way I am, I honest to god get impulses to do things that are very reminiscent of old chivalry. Im not just talking opening doors here but farther back, knights and the like. To me one of the highest compliments I feel I can give a women is to just kiss her hand. Now Part of the reason I do not follow up on the impulses ever, is that its simply embarassing.
If I did something like that, to anyone but a significant other or very good friend. Then most likely the woman would ratract her hand very quickly, of whatever it may be and almost evryone would laugh.
Now as I write this I feel embarassed but I feel a need to speak this because its how I am. But its not just a matter of women not letting us to open doors or pull out there seats or cover the tab. To me this are very supeficial levels of chivalry that were simply the last to die. BUt its simply that alot of women no longer appreciate it, or so far thats been my experience. I mean you ask where all the nice guys are? you ask where chivalry is?
The nice guys are hiding, until they become callous enough from rejection they can simply move about the social light and actually interact. Where is chivalry? its been killed, ridiculed to death or un-appreciated into its grave. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 8:33:42 PM | Think wartime letter home.....
Dear OP:
I am sorry to have missed so many posts, but am constrained by time and duty to the post I am stationed, and to summon the wherewithal to meet them. Graciously my superiors grant us, from time to time, the chance to communicate with our families, loved ones, and others between our struggles at the front.
To answer your question makes my hear heavy, for it asks for a jury summation before the coroner has had a chance to find, let a lone exhume, the body in question. But for the sake of the reprieve it offers, if but for a moment, let me tell you what I think will be the findings.
Chivalry is not a body to be birthed, or killed, but an ideal like unto faith and hope. While there is a certainty that time, circumstance and oppressive action by the enemy may make the future uncertain, and to cause us to waver in the belief of those things we hold sacred in our hearts, let us remain, but for a moment, within the arms of faith.
If chivalry is to have one open doors, is a man in a wheelchair that cannot somehow less chivalrous than a youth that has yet the strength to hold the door that long? If it is in taking your coat, should not the thief be more chivalrous than the butler? Nay, while the child of mammon bellows from the tower for equality the chivalrous man sleeps. Waiting. Waiting for the clarion of not some inner demon to be excorcised, nor a political affront to be publicly whining it's excoriation but the enemy that makes us afraid. The one that asks all good women to ask the unthinkable, but reasonable. For her man to stay home. This is a reasonable act, however unheroic. A chivalrous man hears the voice of mammon stop, as the cloud on the horizon darkens, and does not mutter, nor sneer, nor wonder, but puts his family safe at home and girds himself for war. Joyous is the man that has a woman that, however tearfull, quitely, stoically, puts his sword belt about him and kisses him goodbye hoping against hope that he will come back to her, but to proud of his love, and sacrifice to spare one word that would betray his trust, or weaken by one heartbeat his resolve to protect her, his loved ones, and lastly, himself.
Rome died when roman mothers stoped using the ritual parting "Come back with your shield, or on it."
You want chivalry back front and centre? Kick worthless men to the curb like they need, and quitely, write a letter to your mother if you must, be vocal in your life, and silent in the face of those who make your life a trial, but would not spend one heartbeat thinking about risking thier all for on moment of your freedom than to bear a moment's thought of you enslaved.
Men are Pavlovian by nature. If you want chivalry, then feed the right dogs. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 8:55:32 PM | As long as there are women who appreciate chivalrous men, there will be men who will step up and be more than glad to be chivalrous. Just like the gentleman threads, it takes a lady to appreciate and be thankful for a gentleman. There are plenty of ladies, guys, make no mistake. Keep opening doors and pulling out chairs, the ladies will smile and say thank you. 
This thread is sad, are the women really that hostile? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 9:05:42 PM | This thread is sad, are the women really that hostile?
Oh my. Yes, women are that sad. Not hostile. Just manipulative.
Quietly. Calmly.
The core of a good woman is to protect and nurture her loved ones.
The core of a chivalrous man is to do the same.
The difference is a woman feels to give up such a man is to rip her own heart out.
For a man, it is to do the same, but die knowing it was worth while.
When a man finds a woman that gets it, then he will have found a woman worthy of a chivalrous man. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 9:42:19 PM | It's too late. You've reduce some men to feminism.
I heard Home Depot is going to start selling toilets with a fixed seat so men will be forced to pee sitting down.
See what you've all done!
I don't care though... I'm leaving my mark and p!ssing everywhere for the cause and on behalf of all women!
A women should at least have one place in the home where she recognises a man lives there. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/23/2006 10:41:12 PM | Surely there's more to it than just these little things. Opening a door, giving up a seat, helping with a coat, pulling out a chair, walking closest to the curb, standing up when she comes in... women don't really need us to do any of this. But by doing it, we communicate that we're watching out for them, whether they need it or not. We are paying attention. And I think that feels good to them.
I have never seen a woman get angry at a man for opening a door, it would be ridiculous. But since so many of you describe it, I guess it happens. In that situation, a chivalrous man would exit gracefully. He would pity the woman, because she is foolishly confusing attentiveness for an accusation that she is incapable, and if she gets a man for herself, he'll either be inattentive, or a spineless wimp. And then he'd open the next door he sees for the very next woman walking through it.
Because if you're doing it just to please the woman, it's not particularly chivalrous. We do chivalrous things because they're just our style, they're a natural consequence of paying attention, and they just seem right. If we give up doing them because one cranky so-and-so got mad at us once, then we are not strong enough in our convictions about what's right.
can a man enrole in a womans studies course at university ? I have no idea - someone enlighten me there
Beats me, but what a way to meet chicks! | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/24/2006 12:29:27 AM | chivalry is dead. I totally don't belevie in it at all. As it makes one think there should be defined roles for a person, based on their sex. Just live life as it comes to you.
It's real simple. Be a great person, live by the golden rule "do onto others how you would have them do onto you". I try to be the best I can to the people I date, I don't expect anything in return. All I can do is I hope they want to do the same in return to me. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/24/2006 1:09:41 AM | I just read a thing the other day that Rush wrote, called the War on Manliness. I think some of his points apply here because chivalry should be ingrained in every man.
he mostly spoke about manliness in politics but he made a couple vaild points.
Now let me see if I can remember what it said, and I'll try to boil it down to a few sentences.
Rush said the WW2 generation were the last of the real men. They dragged themselves out of the Great Depression and made life better for their children (the boomers). The children however, didn't see it like that. Instead of seeing newfound opportunity, they still considered themselves in an epic struggle against intitutions and traditions, including marriage and military.
With the boomers brought up to believe that each one of the is special, they wanted to go out and prove it. They set out to 'fix' society. He said 'pampered beyond measure' they saw everything as doom and gloom. They wanted to eradicate hunger, end unfairness.
This required them to label EVERYONE a victim...of something.
The women especially. They didn't really pay attention to all the equality they had earned. Because they were still victims of male patriarchy. Women were getting shafted (haha) and it was time to do something about it.
So the first thing feminists did was to declare men and women equal, even biological equals. With that said, they could argue that femininity and masculinity were created by men to keep women subserviant. The next step was to say manliness itself is the lifeblood of an oppressive system. It had to go.
Gloria Steinen in (i think he said 1998)said "we badly need to start raising our boys more like girls".
Feminists wanted to get rid of all masculine traits.Any trait associated with manliness such as opening doors was viewed as piggish behavior.
Well then he went into how they were emasculating men in politics and pointing out how democrats are trying to 'act manly'. Like John Kerry buying a jockstrap in front of reporters, or looking for a hunting license. Which no one believed.
Now I know he is a big blowhard but when someone like Steinem actually says 'raise the boys like girls' that pretty much backs up his claim that women wanted to get rid of manliness/masculinity. And there goes the chivalry. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/24/2006 4:13:43 AM | Yes chivalry is dead but not for the reason you said chivalry is dead because women fell in love with the shiny item. Women thinking inside the box all the time going for the same type of guys without being open minded. You get caught up in type you need to give certain a chance. Go for the diffrent guy and leave the frauds who will show you what you wanna see.
If not well you end up at home with the kid by yourself while your husband is at his FRIENDS HOUSE wink wink and you just happy cause at least he taking care of you with out apriciating you. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/24/2006 5:15:28 AM | | there are alot of gentlemen still out there campanula, you just have to find them. i personally don't think it can be blamed solely on women for killing chivalry but alot of women don't appreciate it anymore or they think that you are just tryin to get in their pants when you are nice. people have gooten so caught up in all the game playin that it is effecting their attitude and judgement. most gentlemen are nice, respectful and don't play games so if you are the same way you'll most likely meet one. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/24/2006 3:48:41 PM | | I think this is more about manners than chivalry. It seems that there is generally less civility in the world, whether between genders or not. Perhaps this is what killed chivalry, the fact that our lives have sped up to such an extent that we can't take an instant to offer a hand or a moment of kindness to another individual regardless of our relationship to them, or our intention towards them. And a lack of grace in receiving such kindnesses that comes across as rudeness or indifference. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/24/2006 4:13:37 PM | Yep they tried to.
I haven't read all the posts to this thread I got tired of reading the "let your man be a man" posts. So if someone has posted a good answer to the question posted then carry on.
Personally I seem to have grown up a little different than most. I find it natural to open doors, hold umbrellas, go get the car, give my jacket or sweater to her if its chilly, you know all that stuf... What I find is that many ladies are just not used to it, I can't push a girl out of the way to reach the door handle when leaving the resturant (or whereever), many girls get confused when a guy stands when she enters or leaves the table or room. Some get comfortable with it really quick and some just don't.
Many girls just don't know how to be treated like a lady, and if she looks at me crazy when I do something right I learn pretty quick that she doesn't wan't to be treated that way. I haven't found a good way to figure out if she likes the idea and will get used to it, or if she feels like I'm treating her as inferior. So above all I'll error on the side of nonoffensive and act a little more like the rest of the guys.
So if you want to be treated that way expect it; pause at the door, anounce your leaving the table, when offered a gesture don't turn it down- a gentleman won't press the issue much he'll adapt to how you seem to want to be treated.
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/24/2006 4:57:19 PM | Wow -- this isn't the "Ask a DUMB Guy forum".
I agree that we all need to develop NEW ways of appreciating each other's ROLE in modern society -- and that's harder than it used to be... But... sorry to be a dyck guys, all of these blame it on the femnazi blah blah blah posts are so way off base. An entire socio-economic movement 'killed chivalry'. The "computer revolution" can be blamed along with so many other things -- World War II for instance.... blah-blah-blah.
I'd try to explain but I have to go be bored and lonely for a while. You'd be better off blaming the femnazis for the extra puna you get every now and then -- you know - sexual liberation and all that good stuff. Then go blame America for the puna we're not getting because of all the dymn diseases that the researchers in the US won't find a cure for!
grumble grumble grumble. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/25/2006 5:11:58 AM | Wow! Did Partner ever get up on the wrong side of the bed. Guess sometimes someone has to jump in just to pee in the cornflakes....LoL
I do think that women killed chivalry. But not the feminazi's. They just took the credit for the regular mom's act of casual murder and ran with it. Truth is that the end of WWII did a lot to destroy chivalry in North America. Considering that millions of women had shifted roles into the working sector while thier men were off dying and when the survivors came home many women enjoyed the self esteem that came with earning thier own way, and had not done it for long enough to face the toll of doing it for a few years is not the same as doing it for a lifetime and were, short sightedly, unwilling to give it up.
This made men have to compete directly with women for the first time in our countries histories. The fallout of which we still see today, that women want to compete head on with men, but cannot emotionally let go of gaurding the turf of thier old job, and so demand the perqs of one job and the satisfaction of the other. Resulting in them doing neither as well as they might, and causing an enormous amount of churn and confusion in a society that cannot at a glance tell which woman would choose to be treated as a competitor for resources, and which is the ultimate resource and prize.
BTW, a natural extension of this should be that some women that choose to compete should learn the art of chivalry in order to act with it towards men. That would be IMHO the natural balance point where both sexes have choice and consequence. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/25/2006 9:06:23 AM | I agree with Bucsgirl. if women want chivalry men will step up. Men should be the leaders and show they are more than willing to open doors,pull the chairs out for them,etc,etc. I know lot of women that appreciate and wish for a man to step up.
Rather than debating this subject and saying Chivalry is dead ,why not revive it if men think it's dead! I bet if men would try it we might find a multitude of women that would love it.
Speaking of the women during WW2,most women had no choice but to work,and yes,I agree,some got very attached to the idea of working,however,many would have enjoyed staying home and even today many women wish they could be a homemaker and not have to endure the work place. But I don't believe a woman having to work is the cause of us men not stepping up.............Neither do I believe any movement by women can stop a man from showing his willingness to open doors for a lady. Guys it's our reasonable responsibilty to at least try,don't you think?
Try it,we might like it guys! | |
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