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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/25/2006 10:52:56 AM | Chivalry is not dead. It's simply reserved for ladies. And guess what? Most women nowadays are not ladies.
I will treat a granny as a lady. I will treat a woman in sensible clothes and clean mouth as a lady. I won't treat a woman showing the crack of her ass, bling in her face and with a potty mouth as a lady.
Oh, yes. She may think she's a lady. Other may think she's a lady. Let those others treat her as a lady (looks like they don't. Surprise, surprise). I won't.
There is also the attraction factor. There is a saying: "Men will be good when women become attracted to good men". If a guy acting as a gentleman sees that the jerk always gets the girl, very soon he will become jaded. And don't tell me the good guy wins the prize at the end. I don't consider that being the meal ticket for an used-up slut with several **stards who had her fill of bad guys and now wants a good man to pay for her party is a "prize".
Women, want chivalry? Well, start to act as ladies. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/25/2006 12:33:52 PM | Yep. Simbad has it right.
Speaking as something of a history buff, the term chivalry refers to an old Teutonic warrior code that demands that men be *men*, which draw distinctions between the worthy and the unworthy, demands that we act accordingly, and that we protect those less capable than ourselves.
Now, I'm not saying that the "code" requires women to be weak. Afterall, this was a code formulated in a culture that allowed women to be strong and selective and independent. Even after conversion to Catholicism NW Europe was populated by strong women, and that cultural disposition is why Western women enjoy such a greater degree of freedom today than pretty well any others on Earth or even in time.
Nevertheless, the elder world was much more physical than today, and those who were at a physical disadvantage needed to be protected... be they women, children, elderly, or even other men.
As an intersting anecdote, the term *lord* comes from an Anglo-Saxon root meaning "protector of the loaf/bread", while the term *lady* comes from a root meaning "kneader/maker of the loaf/bread". | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/25/2006 3:12:26 PM | Jmars - thanks for the insight in to the history - much appreciated to know the background.
unfortunately modern society does not want to allow us to be "men" any more - men in the old sense that you speak of
I am finding more and more that women are more interested in weak pussified males that are vagina struck -- the reason why as I see it - because they want to wear the pants - they want a male - not a man , (there is a big difference between the two) that they can walk all over command at will and basically treat like shit while dangling the temptation of "sex" in front of his nose as a reward if he is good and does what he is told
No thanks - not for me that scenario, and I refuse point blank to compromise my integrity for what --- some punani - hmmm seems many woman believe they are the only one in the world with that part of anatomy
a friend recently split with his girfriend, she said to him " I have the punani that means i have the power" he dumped her ass on the spot - NO discussion or anything
i could be wrong and many will say i am - I am just expressing how I see it | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/25/2006 8:03:14 PM | Women didn't kill chivalry. But it isn't such a widely accepted attitude nowadays. Most woman aren't hardcore feminists. I still go out of my way to be courteous or help someone who looks like they might need it, male or female. I like to think that women still need men even if there's confusion as to what men are really needed for.
Chilvalry is an outdated concept. Women have equal access in the workplace. Marriage is no longer a necessity. Woman are in the armed forces. Sexual monogamy is a personal choice. Anyone who bought shares in divorce court a few decades ago would be a gazillionaire now. Society decides how to distribute the assets of 2 people's life and labor. Society decides how to settle disputes. Society decides pretty much everything. These are major evolutionary changes. We're comparing a concept from a day when monarchs decided everything. The "evolution" is not complete. The ball is still in motion. It could evolve into something evolutionary. The men who were in charge back in the day helped women move forward. I think it's only decent that the favor is returned. Men can't physically have children. Why are men scorned for defending the hunter/gatherer role that has been theirs since the dawn of human beings? Women aren't scorned for raising children. Perhaps it will take technology to solve the problem (ie.Ex utero fertilization). Or perhaps we need a new system that doesn't involve money or caste.
Chilvalry is a byegone  We need a new word like "Person-alry".  | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/25/2006 10:19:00 PM | Yes, Chivalry is DEAD! And women killed it and then stamped on it, spit on it and cursed it.
After all that, why in the world would you ever think that it would come back. The way women have treated men for the past forty years is ridicules. Just look at how women treat men and after that, you think that a man is willing to hold a door open for a woman. For get it. You get what you reap and so do women. If one respects others, then they usually get respect back. The problem isn’t men, it’s women. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/25/2006 11:45:16 PM | Women want chivalry, but they also demand equality. Based on that, it can't logically work. I say pick one and deal with the reprecussions.
I would normally rant here, but I think the bases have been covered really well in this thread. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/26/2006 2:07:55 AM | | I like to think that Chivalry isn't dead. But it is lost on some women. Opening the car door. Offering your hand to help someone get out of the back seat. Letting woman sit in the front seat of the car, dispite the lack of leg room in the back. Some women don't get. Much less demand it. I've had some women just give me confused looks when I did these things. Or you write a girl a poem and then they ask you if you wrote it. No I copied it and trying to pawn it off on my own. Thanks. I'm not saying women should wait by the Car door for the guy to open it, though if enough did it... I think it has to be taught. So what should be done is known. And then then their should be positive reinforcement. A "thank you, that was sweet(hug, kiss on cheek)." If women did this, guys will be real chivalic. Also it might be helpful if women held out, just a little. Make men respect you. Why treat a pig like a queen? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/26/2006 4:32:49 AM | This may be a matter of semantics, but what most posters seem to be talking about is being a "gentleman" not chivalry. Opening doors and pulling out chairs are artifacts of social customs that had more to do with fasion (hoop skirts) that became accepted behavior when they were taught in etiquitte schools. I am not saying that they are no longer relevant, just that it is really common courtesy more than chivalry.
Chivalry is something that runs far deeper than social manners, and it is a statement of social responsibility more than relationships between the sexes. Mainstream media has made many statements on the meaning of "chivalry" and some of them may even be correct, but the common themes seem to be:
Live a life of honesty and integrity.
Protect the weak. (This applied to any who had less martial skill, not just women)
Devotion to God (Every society has had the Paladin or knight, irregardless of religion)
Patriotism (this can be misguided, but in general devotion to king and country is needed)
Courage in the face of danger
Willingness to sacrifice for a greater cause
Commitment to Righting of wrongs and the downfall of the wicked.
I don't think that these ideals are completely dead, and their demise had nothing to do with women. Being a gentleman may be a different story, but enough posters have commented on that already. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 8:49:02 AM | msg80: giddy - I am finding more and more that women are more interested in weak pussified males that are vagina struck -- the reason why as I see it - because they want to wear the pants - they want a male - not a man , (there is a big difference between the two) that they can walk all over command at will and basically treat like shit while dangling the temptation of "sex" in front of his nose as a reward if he is good and does what he is told
i ve seen example of this from one couple i ve came across, tho i dont know about the pussifying bit or if sexual poweness factored in, the woman is totally manipulating the man, the man probably got so used to it he doesnt see it anymore, but the manipulative behaviour of this women extends to everyone around her, the most challenging part for me was, its very very difficult to remain polite when youre around one of those.
msg80: giddy - i could be wrong and many will say i am - I am just expressing how I see it
i also see what you see.
but the point i 'also' see here is - why should all the normal man and normal women suffer for those manipulative bunch? and let our society waste away before our eyes, against our wish, into a state of sadness? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 9:19:53 AM |
I will treat a granny as a lady. I will treat a woman in sensible clothes and clean mouth as a lady. I won't treat a woman showing the crack of her ass, bling in her face and with a potty mouth as a lady.
Wow, I loved this post. I often feel terribly sorry for my sons, having to pick their life mates out of the current crop of trashy little mtv bimbos, interested only in what they can get from a man.
If you find yourself frustrated by women who do not act like ladies, then may I suggest you avoid them. I know men that complain vociferously about the lack of decent, nice women, yet they go for the easy conquest every time. Ask yourself, if you are in a place, perhaps considering the women there, do you head over the the woman sitting in the corner who is not dressed like a hooker and looks as if she might not put out on the first date, or even the second, or do you head over to the half drunk, half clad woman on the dance floor flirting with all the men there, because you are sure she is going to put out, and return your investment in her with sex?
If you seek women of quality, you will get them. If you seek sex toys, you will get those.
My mother and grandmother raised me to understand that a lady or gentleman, was a person who through manners, etiquette and attitude, made everyone feel comfortable around them.
Women want chivalry, but they also demand equality. Based on that, it can't logically work. I say pick one and deal with the reprecussions.
There are more facets to equality than you may realize. Just because you are loved and respected by your significant other, as something precious and worthy of protecting, this does not make you unequal. Being different, having different strengths and weaknesses does not make you unequal, it makes you different.
I do not want chivalry, I demand it as the respect that is due to me by a man. In return, I am kind, supportive and loving. That is the chivalry in return that we as women, owe to men. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 9:50:51 AM | | To answer your question yes there are groups of men trying to bring chivalry back. I read about them and met with some of them, but it's hard work especially because the men have to constantly give and give and give and expect absolutely nothing....as in absolutely....nothing. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 10:01:49 AM | I often feel terribly sorry for my sons, having to pick their life mates out of the current crop of trashy little mtv bimbos, interested only in what they can get from a man.
Tell them to travel the world, to visit South America, the Caribbean, Eastern Europe. Then they can compare and choose.
If you find yourself frustrated by women who do not act like ladies, then may I suggest you avoid them.
Good suggestion, although a bit late. Look for all those "where did all the good men go" and "there are no decent men left" threads. In them, you will find a whole shipload of aging former party girls with fatherless children complaining because good men don't want them.
Actually I'm not frustrated by those women who don't act as ladies. Turned off, yes. Repelled, sometimes. But not frustrated. It would imply that I give a damn about their lives, which actually, I don't.
If you seek women of quality, you will get them. If you seek sex toys, you will get those.
I agree with you. Therefore, perhaps women should choose carefully which one they want to be.
I demand it as the respect that is due to me by a man. In return, I am kind, supportive and loving.
Too many women demand it, but don't return anything in exchange. Anyway, who is she to demand anything from anyone? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 1:52:16 PM |
I think the word 'demand' flares a little confusion in modern use, gentlemen, what this ladys saying was, as i ve understood, she avocate for chivalry and pursue chivalry both ways
Yes, this is a case of not reading past the first word for the full information. I think it shows the posters would not be giving it to begin with.
I expect nothing more than respect, and I accept nothing less. In exchange, you will be treated always with the utmost respect and consideration. However do not expect to see me again if I am not being treated with respect from the get go. I do not expect to be touched without my permission, nor do I wear things on a first date that could be misconstrued as an open invitation.
Look for all those "where did all the good men go" and "there are no decent men left" threads. In them, you will find a whole shipload of aging former party girls with fatherless children complaining because good men don't want them.
I agree with you. Therefore, perhaps women should choose carefully which one they want to be.
Interesting to note, I thought I had and I made it abundantly clear, and you still don't like it.
Respect is not earned, respect should be the norm, until you prove yourself unworthy of it. That is what chivalry, or even just basic good manners means. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 1:59:11 PM | JMars has the right idea by looking at the historical roots of the thing to see how it wokrs in modern land, so here's a little more fleshing out:
Chivalry originally developed with the advent of the knight/noble as the pinnacle of warfare during the early middle ages. A very expensive, ruling class only pinnacle of the profession which was the basic means of economic expansion. In order to prove your economic worth, you had to be damn good at fighting, and had to treat your equals (i.e. other nobles and knights) under a practical martial code, not a romantic one (For example, ambushes were quite common and accepted, but killing prisoners was frowned upon...you didn't want your throat slit if you were dismounted after all). This ensured the entire system didn't break down. If you failed at this a) knights wouldn't work for you, and b) other nobles, who were doing perfectly well by the system, would come stomp on you. You did NOT have to be chivalrous to the lower classes or the weak, nor were you expected to. Fealty was an entirely different matter. Also at this time, a woman who expected respect had to be good at organizing finances, farms, and armies while following the chivalrous code and politicking. She didn't have to be a sword slinger, but it didn't hurt either. If you didn't meet these standards, you were not granted the right of chivalrous treatment, man or woman.
After knights were more or less replaced by an armed lower and middle class, mercenaries, and engineers as the deciding factor in battle, the original warrior code deteriorated quickly. For a while though, it was sill the descendants of the old fighters who held the land and the money. Howvere, in thier old sphere, warfare, knights in shining armor were being alternatively mown down by longbows, stopped by pikes, beaten by professional infantry, or being generally relegated to a specialized role in sieges as machinists and engineers did the real work. This lead to romantic chivalry, which is what most people think of today. Knights in shining armor now jousted for a lady's favor, undertook quests, etc. to prove their worth to the opposite sex. This also lead to courtly love in the form of poems, songs, etc. as mere prowess at arms was no longer sufficient nor did it have ample opportunities for demonstration. Under this new code, women became prizes, and were expected to become subservient in return for special treatment. Those interested in making a mark for themselves ignored this or gamed it and went about repsect the old way.
Now, for the modern tie in. These codes did not coexist then, nor will they now. We have learned that women do not want to be subservient, natch, got it. This means romantic chivalry, where you earn special status and treatment by susbervience ain't happening. We will not take your coat, give up our seat, etc. just because you are female, and in return you will no longer aqcuiesce (sic?) to us just because we are male. Fair trade really. I stand up if the president enters the room because he is the president and has paid for that token of respect with his service as authority; you have different genitalia does not merit the same unless you are willing to pay for it another way, namely, knuckling under. It should be fairly obvious why romantic chivalry won't be happening any time soon.
What does exist in modern day is the old code, reformed. People tend to treat those they consider worthy of respect, with respect. A basic level is assumed for all people (until they prove otherwise), for example I tend to keep the door open for most strangers within a few quick steps gender irregardless. Among professionals, friends, and family there is usually a mutual level of politeness and etiquette observed beyond this. Those who have advanced further are given greater respect, and those who prove themselves are granted the same. Nothing which would imply weakness or dominance by one or the other, just niceities which make life a little easier and show an appreciation of the other person. As with the old system, the quickest ways to find yourself out of this loop are to ignore it yourself or prove yourself unworthy. If you are a spoiled brat, ungrateful, an overt idiot, etc., bye, you are now like a peasant or rogue knight of old, and the need to be chivalrous towards you is not there.
So basically, if you want all the trappings of chivalry, you have two options: earn it or pay for it. And by the way, if you go the earn it route, don't expect any rituals that would make you seem weaker, cause if you were, we wouldn't respect you now would we? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 2:23:14 PM | " what do women need to do to bring back chivalry?"
Women should work hard at this.What I want is the following.
(1) When I get home from the race track I would like a hot meal waiting for me, and a cooler full of Bud Light beside the couch.
(2) When I get home from a long day at the bar with friends I would like Rose petals all over the bed with scented candles in the room, with my lady ready to fill my every desire.
(3) When I get home after a rough day at the strip club I would like for her to fill the tub with hot steaming water (don't forget the bubble bath), and a chilled bottle of white wine.
And in between those times she could cut the grass ( shovel snow, depending on the season) take out the trash, clean the gutters, wash and wax my truck.
And whatever else she wants to do.
This is 2006 and it is time for women to start kissing our azzes like we have done yours for generations.
All interested females should contact me for an application.
P.S. Interviews will start immediately.  | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 2:37:16 PM | What I've seen in various posts is what we want, what we may expect or what we demand. While none of that is inherently wrong in itself, it doesn't address who's the first to act. Is a lady only treated as a lady after she's demonstrated she is one? It's easy to be a lady in the presence of a chivalrous gentleman, but ladies are ladies even when they're with someone who's not. They needn't continue to keep company with the person and choose to dissociate themselves, but still maintain a ladylike demeanor. That to be is one of the traits of a lady, she's a lady at all times.  | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 3:07:09 PM | Interesting to note, I thought I had and I made it abundantly clear, and you still don't like it.
In fact, I liked your advice. The thing is, as I said, it comes a bit late.
Respect is not earned, respect should be the norm, until you prove yourself unworthy of it. That is what chivalry, or even just basic good manners means.
You are partially right. Manners should be the norm. However, real respect must be earned. As I read once: "I won't open the door for you because you are a lady. I will do it because I am a gentleman". Noblesse obligue (or something like that).
About the "demand" word... you see, most men have been subject to women's demands -men should be like this, men should do like that, etc.- for so long that we react as if bitten by tarantulas when we hear it. | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 97 | |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 3:07:43 PM | I have enjoyed reading this thread – special thanks to those (”protector of the loaf” & ”kneader of the loaf”, see msg 79) who with the same mouth are declaring themselves chivalrous gentlemen, and then heaping abuse on the type of wo/men who are not according their ideal 
Not very noble, I would say. I liked the msg 86 of Pr0m3theus which pointed well how the question is about deeper attitude towards the whole society, kind of world view (I do not see a contradiction between the ideas of a gentleman and chivalrious one in nowadays use of language.) This is what I meant when claiming that training a monkey to open a door does not make it chivalrous – it might still lack the attitude. Personally, no matter how nice my partner was towards me, he would be an ex soon if realizing he does not show the same respect towards the other people – no matter what kind of [censored] they are.
So, the original question is a bit absurd, IMO. ”Chivalry” obviously is something you cannot buy with your own actions or attitude. (Of course, one can always pretend and manipulate a bit, but what do you get then: another one who is participating the same game?)
I am finding more and more that women are more interested in weak pussified males--
Msg 80. Obviously there are this kind of couples as well, not to mention those in which the male is a pompous dictator and the female slave sort of poor devil without franchise. Sad, isn’t it? Perhaps they do not know about better.
Or did the poster inlude in this picture also the man type whose manhood is strong enough to accept his partner as an equal? Naaaawwwww, he could not, that would have been too naive.
Women want chivalry, but they also demand equality.
Msg 84. Not all, as you have seen. Some just would be glad with the real equality. Luckily and obviously all kind of demand will find their supply.
More interesting question is if we go to the traditional concept of marital life, how many men are ready (without complaining) to pay in the case of divorce, not just for the kids but also to support the ex wife. In the marriage you might be asked to be traditional but later you, in many cases, should be ready to change your attitude and become ”equal”, here: independent – sometimes even after decades of marital life. (I am following the course of discussion here which seems to put equality and ”chivalry” opposing one another – odd...)
Tell them to travel the world, to visit South America, the Caribbean, Eastern Europe. Then they can compare and choose.
Msg: 93 - I agree: tell them compare, travelling makes good. But remember to tell them also about cultural differences, and that everything is not ”What You See Is What You Get”. In some cultures girl's main task is to make the best possible match (economical security goes first before love since the girl is supposed to help her family later). For sure, many of these continue being an excellent partner after the Amen but then there is another thing: check what is the tradition of the culture and the family in question. There is a tiny chance you are marrying – instead of one lady – the whole family.
It is just a fact, and not even that odd. "Good match" part was the tradition also in Western culture. I can almost here some of my foreign lady friends telling me: ”Do not be stupid, you just need to pretend a bit and let the man believe he is the center of your world.”
I am not claiming all ladies from certain cultures are similar – I have met real kick*ss chicks e.g. from Asia who would make independent women in my country to look like doormats. The world is just changing; chivalry is an outdated concept, as msg 81 was telling (a good post, btw). | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 3:22:15 PM | with the same mouth are declaring themselves chivalrous gentlemen, and then heaping abuse on the type of wo/men who are not according their ideal.
Actually, most of they are saying that chivalry is dead. And it's not "heaping abuse". It's saying why some women don't deserve chivalry.
More interesting question is if we go to the traditional concept of marital life, how many men are ready (without complaining) to pay in the case of divorce.
Curious. I always thought the traditional concept of marital life included to fulfill your "till death set us apart" vows.
There is a tiny chance you are marrying – instead of one lady – the whole family.
Agree on that. However, it may not be such a bad thing to acquire a family. At least, the traditional Latin hospitality towards relatives is something I find refreshing. Just do your homework before engaging.
”Do not be stupid, you just need to pretend a bit and let the man believe he is the center of your world."
So we men have two possibilities:
1) She really believes he is the center of her world and it makes him happy.
2) She makes him believe that he is the center of her world and it makes him happy.
Perhaps your foreign lady friends are onto something there. | |
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ousu
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Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 99 | |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 3:43:05 PM | Curious. I always thought the traditional concept of marital life included to fulfill your "till death set us apart" vows.
Obviously but the theory is not the practise - at least what becomes to statistics and the demands of our days. Just following a divorce case of one "traditional" couple in which the other one decided to become "modern". Notice, earlier the society was supporting traditional form, not anymore - the contract breaker became an outcast. Now, hardly no one pays attention since (at least in FI) more than half of marriages end in divorce. Still a decade and children in school start to say: "What?! Your parents are still married? Are you weirdos?"
("Perhaps your foreign lady friends are onto something there." - They saw it as a normal practise how things should be, only a couple of younger ones questioned the tradition strongly. - It was a discussion some time ago, some from Eastern Europe, some from Asia. And not a feminist group but skilled professionals in totally different field. So, even despite of their high education and position in work life, the tradition seemed to be still strong) | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/27/2006 4:01:23 PM |
About the "demand" word... you see, most men have been subject to women's demands -men should be like this, men should do like that, etc.- for so long that we react as if bitten by tarantulas when we hear it.
Oh, are you sure men are the only ones having demands placed upon them by the opposite sex?
I do not like my men "pussified." I decry the feminization of men with the same fervour that I challenge the masculinization of women.
I am only interested in manly men. This way I am free to be a womanly woman. | |
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