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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 8:54:20 AM | Over the last few days it has occurred to me that the problem with chivalrous behaviour is that many women intentionally, or otherwise, blur the lines between chivalry, courtly behaviour (manners) and courtship behaviours. And in all fairness, many men oft to lazy or self affected to learn to be chivalrous prefer the lines blurred because it makes it easier for them to lay claim to a rank or caste they covet, but would only acquire by consent, not by act or deed of self.
Truly those that are chivalrous are not perfect, but strive to be as righteous as they can, at no small cost to themselves, without hope of reward. While the concept is almost dead, it still exists. These men are just as rare today in a per-capita sense as they have always been, but are harder to spot because they don't smell like a horse, wear armour and spend all thier time on crusade or saving the king. (That was hyperbolic...BTW)
The only problem with a chivalrous man, is it takes a chaste, righteous and constant woman to handle him. These men are not for the wall flowers, or the dilletantes other than in thier fantasies. The rigours caring for a man that is often gruff on the exterior that is often his only buffer for a caring heart instilled with an implacable sense of purpose and duty is not for the faint of heart.
The simple level of self honesty and dedication required to be in such a position and neither go mad, nor despair is beyond most people's understanding, let alone grasp.
Perhaps such men are soon to be resigned to the abyss of history, only time will tell. But one thing is certain. That a civilization's ability to grow and learn is historically tied to it's marrying of martial, marital, and religious duty. Break the triangle and a civilization may not die, but it never recovers it's former glory.
If women want to bring it back, they need to realize that it is something they must be an active participant in, not just one that asks and waits to be serviced. | |
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Rhett1
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Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 128 | |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 9:50:46 AM | Sadly the many years I tried to do chivalry it always gave the women the image that I was desperate or weak
I really believe that WE have given men the impression that to be chivalrous is to be a wimp. I had a former friend that freaked out on a man when he opened a door for her, she called him down and told him not to be such a ****. What are the chances that man will go ahead and do the same thing in the future? Pretty good, I'm guessing, but he would be pretty damn scared! There is the whole "bad boy" phenomena that women can have a nice guy, but they seem to go for the guy who seems more destined to hurt them, so why would men keep being chivalrous? I agree with men who say that women (not all, of course) are looking for a "bad boy", and isn't a good way to define a bad boy as one NOT being chivalrous?
I'm not sure why you would cry about chivalry being difficult to find though, that seems a little melodramatic.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts5617358.aspx
OP, try to be original.
Why do some people get so worked up when someone revisits a subject? Are we not allowed to talk about a subject more than once? Besides, when a thread gets up to about 10 pages, you start to lose interest, why not revisit it? Also, a lot of threads can be a year or more old, why not start off fresh?
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Rhett1
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Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 129 | |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 10:04:58 AM | | I also think it helps if ALL of us are raised with some morals, ethics, manners, etc. Some men have killed chivalry as a rebuttle for the feminazi movement that seems to actually HATE men more than want to be considered equal. I don't lump feminists in with this group, though, true feminists just want to be treated with the same consideration as men when it comes to equal pay, equal rights, etc. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 11:31:34 AM | | write on,swifton women and men have to let eachother be themselves without all the criticizm, or the sudjestion of how the should act. lets just treat each other like we would if we were tring to bed the other down. the we would all laugh and enjoy life more. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 1:27:19 PM | I kinda disagree that women need to be responsive to those men who "act and feel" chivalrous.
As Yoda would say: I think its just something you do or dont do. Wether or not you recieve positive re-inforcement is immaterial.
Being chivalrous and/or polite is something you do for yourself..because thats the way you think/are/were raised.
I agree that there has been a backlash from the "femi-nazi" world that has made acts of chivalry somehow akin to making women feel like they are helpless maidens..too bad. I dont think that was ever the intention.
I think the basic premise remains that acts of chivalry are done for thier own merits and not for kudos from the opposite sex.
Though like some here I have recieved "less than kind" responses from "modern women" when opening a door...and for a few days it bugged me. But a few days later Im back at it because its part of me...not something that is dependant on positive feedback.
But hey it doesnt hurt either!
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 2:27:19 PM | ^^ its not just chivalry that has seen the glory of bygone days. Its much evident in the lack of public civility, of the perception of public good and the utility of public service (by this, I mean community service and volunteer work), the need for active participation in stable family unit and neighborhood/community fostering and support. Of the need for personal responsibility, of pride of place. Of the benefits of providing positive role models within our family, social support network, and community.
Of the old-fashioned pleasures of doing good deeds for its own sake.
Every day, I make some small effort to do good - be it through cyberspace communities or in my locale. I regularly volunteer and help with community projects. Because its healthy and there are many intangible rewards for this positive mind-set.
Chivalry, sirs, is a subset behavior of a larger and old ethics code of 'the enlightened', not obligatory, not expected, not self-promoting. Its a way of life practiced because it adds to a greater good and is a stabilizing influence. Perhaps we do need to return to this mindset, in our increasingly unstable world full of discontentment and self-servicing greed. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 2:43:42 PM | ^Well put. I have to ask this though : if we're supposed to be chivalrous as a matter of course then what is the female equivalent to this ? Moreover, if I'm expected to be chivalrous, then why isn't this also being hammered into the heads of women ? If I refuse to open a car door for a woman simply because she's a woman and I get called a neanderthal for my lack of chivalry, why do we hear "You go girl !" when a woman refuses to show me the same level of presumed respect ? In other words, I don't give up my seat on the bus, I'm insensitive. If she doesn't give up hers to me when it's obvious that I've been breaking my back all day schlepping hundred pound bags of who knows what (while she's been sitting in an office) she is applauded for standing her ground and not giving in to the "desires" of men.
If we're all equal nowadays, why don't women open car doors for men ? Hmmmm....the answer to that is why chivalry is dead. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 3:10:07 PM | If a man holds a door open for me, I am grateful. I thank him, respectfully. If he doesn't, it's not a negative point against him. If I see someone who is struggling with packages while trying to open a door, I hold it open for them out of courtesy. I help the elderly, infirm, and disabled when circumstance permits.
If we're all equal nowadays, why don't women open car doors for men ? Hmmmm....the answer to that is why chivalry is dead.
I think there is misconception. There are patterns of historical courtesy between male and female. I have held open doors for men (not, however, car doors) when their hands were full; I've paid for lunch and dinner for male friends and colleagues without a thought. These actions were accepted graciously by those men who are acclimated to accepting social courtesy regardless of gender.
If the bus or train is full and an elder, a pregnant woman, a woman with children, an obviously ill or injured or a handicapped person needs a seat, I will always give mine up. If someone is in a great hurry, I let them go first - often to surprised and effusive thanks. If a person has fewer items, I let go ahead of me, when standing in the checkout line in stores. I do small services for neighbors without being asked, because its the right thing to do. If you were to ask me, may I please have your seat, I don't feel well, I would accommodate your request, because it is a little thing and standing is not such a burden.
Nor is it a burden to lend time and attention to listen attentively and supportively to strangers who needed an ear and a kind word. Not a burden to wear a pleasant smile as you walk along, to nod politely when you catch another's eye. Not a big thing to pick up litter on the roadside as part of a public group, provide service to a library as a technical reader for the blind, a teacher of English, or reading and writing skills to adults, or a saturday reader for young children. I volunteer my expertise for education and public service where needed - this too, is a simple thing that can make a real difference in the lives of others.
All of this is a form of chivalrous action. It need not be a man's obligation, an expectation of gender behavior.
Sir, you do not beat these attitudes into women or men; you set an example by your actions. That's one's obligation - man or woman, as a functional contributing adult, in modern society. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 3:15:57 PM | ^Well thank you Miss Manners. As it happens I am one of those people who DOES exactly that stuff out of courtesy. I see very few people following my example. Oh well.
Now, back to my question...what's YOUR obligation ? If being chivalrous is my obligation as a man, then what's your obligation as a woman ? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 3:22:55 PM | At the risk of appearing tedious, let me repeat myself:
All of this is a form of chivalrous action. It need not be a man's obligation, an expectation of gender behavior. That's one's obligation - man or woman, as a functional contributing adult, in modern society.
I think I'll take that 'Ms Manners' crack as compliment. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 3:41:02 PM | I don't think chivalry is dead, but it has taken a beating in year's past. I was brought up with chivalry (or just plain decent manners, as some have said), but a few times I have actually offended some women when I opened the car door for them or pulled their chair out at a restaurant. It hasn't stopped me from doing these things, and I would hold a door open for either a man or a woman, but you do have to kind of feel it out these days. Some women do appreciate these things, and quite frankly, some are surprised when you do open the car door for them. I've never looked at it in the "weaker" sex context, just as a sign of respect for someone you were interested in enough to go out with. However, I did have one woman tell me there was nothing wrong with her arm when I opened the door for her. For this and several other reasons, we just didn't fit.
I think the whole women's lib thing, combined with the changes in our society and the lack of manners being taught at hom,e has diminished "chivalrous behavior" significantly, but I think it has more to do with a lack of manners. Some guys do think that women can't have it both ways, though. I have a few friends like that. Have you ever been on a double date where you run out to pull the car up to the door and the other guy looks at you like you are nuts? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 4:23:35 PM |
If the bus or train is full and an elder, a pregnant woman, a woman with children, an obviously ill or injured or a handicapped person needs a seat, I will always give mine up. If someone is in a great hurry, I let them go first - often to surprised and effusive thanks. If a person has fewer items, I let go ahead of me, when standing in the checkout line in stores. I do small services for neighbors without being asked, because its the right thing to do. If you were to ask me, may I please have your seat, I don't feel well, I would accommodate your request, because it is a little thing and standing is not such a burden.
Exactly sombient, very well said. Chivalry, manners and etiquette are beautiful, kind expressions of humanity. They make the entire world a more pleasant place to spend time. The stronger protect the weaker with consideration, always showing respect to those less fortunate than ourselves shows grace and humility. IMHO these are marks of nobility. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 7:35:47 PM | Ahhh...my apologies sombient, I did indeed miss that part.
Nevertheless, my question does in fact still stand. Why ? Because I don't ever hear anybody asking women to practice chivalry in any form. In fact, such notions are deemed politically incorrect these days and to even suggest that a woman should be more "traditional" (or our idealistic image of what traditional is supposed to be) is met with tsk tsk'ing from the usual gender warrior suspects. It's been my experience that not only is the suggestion met with hostility but that such a reaction is commonplace. Now, it's very good that you don't assign the concept of chivalry to a gender role and therefore a sex at all but the reality is that when it comes to the subject of which sex has the onus on its shoulders, it's the males. That's all well and good but it should eventually lead one to ask what the female equivalent of chivalry is. One could say that it's also chivalry that women are supposed to practise but I have yet to see this in everyday life where women go about chastising other women for not acting chivalrously.
Thus, if chivalry is considered a male responsibility, there must be some equivalent for the ladies. I'm asking what it is. Simply saying that it's to be courteous is fair but really, it's also side-stepping the spirit of my question. So let's not be coy (and no, I'm not accusing you of being so) but rather , enlighten me on what the female equivalent of chivalry is named or , at the very least, practised.
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 9:31:35 PM |
Enlighten me on what the female equivalent of chivalry is named.
I understand that chivalry has come to be associated with male attributes, but I believe in the "Age of Chivalry," the ethics of it applied to both men and women. An early poster (Prometheus?) said it well:
Live a life of honesty and integrity.
Protect the weak. (This applied to any who had less martial skill, not just women)
Devotion to God (Every society has had the Paladin or knight, irregardless of religion)
Patriotism (this can be misguided, but in general devotion to king and country is needed)
Courage in the face of danger
Willingness to sacrifice for a greater cause
Commitment to Righting of wrongs and the downfall of the wicked.
I don't know what the female word for this would be, but, with exception of the God reference (since I'm a heathen, I'll personalize it to devotion to the concept of respect for others' religious beliefs), I'd be proud to have these characteristics. I'm not that good, I'm afraid, but I can try. Call me chivalrous, and I'd thank you. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/30/2006 10:16:53 PM | | Cheers to that Dawn. And that brings up a question that until now hasn't entered the discussion. Why is this an exclusive male requirement, especially looking at our modern world. I think that might be the root of some of the bitterness here. Was Joan of Arc a chivalrous person? I think so. She met all the formal criteria. Trash is trash and class is class. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/31/2006 6:18:58 AM | | Many of my female friends say the same thing. I tell them that consistancy and acceptance is the key. Many of them say they want Chivilry but then don't know how to react/accept it when it is shown. If a guy is going to open a door, pull out your chair for you, etc. you can't react funny to it or nervous about it. You must accept that this is how you are to be treated and say "thank-you". A man who enjoys being chivilrous will bend over backwards to continue this behaviour IF you show that you appretiate it. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/31/2006 6:58:05 AM | Please, the last few posts show just the problem with the question.
Chivalry is NOT courtly behaviour. Opening doors is courtly (well mannered) behaviour, but has nothing to do with chivalry. The two are seperate and distinct, although a chivalrous person is more likely than not to also have passable manners. No wonder someone, I forget which poster, would take being called chivalrous for opening doors as a compliment. The contrast is as stark as being treated like a Lord because one had managed to bathe that day.
Common use does not define correct. Perhaps we could clarify what the OP, or women are actually asking for. Do you wish men with manners or civility? Or chivalrous ones?
Although I suspect the answer is both...lol
Chivalry is not gender based, just check Joan of Arc for starters, but their are many, many more. Although it is practiced by more men than women.
As for the poster that asked what the female equvalent is, did you perhaps mean reciprocal? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/31/2006 8:26:43 AM | This is taken directly from wikipedia:
Chivalry refers to the medieval institution of knighthood and, most especially, the ideals that were (or have become) associated with it. It is usually, for example, associated with ideals of knightly virtues, honour and courtly love. The word comes from the French word chevalier which means knight.[1] The English word cavalier comes from the same root. Ultimately the word gained an aristocratic connotation, as it distinguished the wealthy knight on horseback from the peasant infantryman walking with his pike and the artilleryman dragging his vulgar machinery.
Chivalry was in essence a warrior code that was later appropriated and propagated by the Church, which added a Christian aspect. The Church even allowed warrior monks to create orders of chivalry, which were organizations of Christian knights who would protect the church and society. Courtly love lay more emphasis on the courtesy and respect for ladies. Three tendencies in chivalry are distinguishable:
warrior chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to his lord, as exemplified by Sir Gawain in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle
religious chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to protect the innocent and serve God, as exemplified by Sir Galahad or Sir Percival in the Grail legends.
courtly love chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to his own lady, and after her, all ladies, as exemplified by Sir Lancelot in his love for Queen Guinevere or Sir Tristan in his for Iseult
However, in many respects, a knight's duties in all three strands overlapped.
In war, the chivalrous knight was idealized as brave in battle, loyal to his king and God and willing to sacrifice himself for the lord or king. Towards his fellow Christians and countrymen, the knight was to be merciful, humble and courteous. Towards noble ladies, above all, the knight was to be gracious and gentle. The idealized relationship between knight and lady was that of courtly love.
Today, chivalry is interpreted as courteous behavior, especially by men, towards women. A quotation often associated with this idea comes from Edmund Burke: "The age of chivalry is gone." [1], often misquoted as "The age of chivalry is dead."
There was no single code that served as a definition of how a knight should act, but there were several lists written down during the Middle Ages. One example code can be found in the book Chivalry by 19th century French historian Leon Gautier.
Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions.
Thou shalt defend the Church.
Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy.
Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pledged word.
Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone.
Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil
Whether you want to put your own spin on it or not, chivalry in the classic sense (which so many women here seem to be trying to take note of) is exclusively for men. Additionally, you have to look at the time period and what was going on. How were women expected to act, how were they viewed as citizens, and how were they treated? Here are some things to take note of specifically:
1. Women were considered inferior to men
2. Generally taught to be obediant to their husbands/fathers
3. Only gained land if your husband/father died
4. If you get married and you own land, you forfeit that land to your new husband
5. You have to join a convent/nunnery for any hope to get an education
6. You are expected to wrap and cover your hair once married as a sign of modesty
So, why are you all screaming to keep chivalry alive but you don't want to keep the rest of midieval traditions alive as well? | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/31/2006 8:38:17 AM | DentedKnight:
Perhaps we could clarify what the OP, or women are actually asking for. Do you wish men with manners or civility? Or chivalrous ones?
This woman asks for and offers mutual respect, including, but not limited to, reciprocal manners and civility. Can't speak for the others...  | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/31/2006 9:10:08 AM | Chivalry... hmm. Well, I'll strap on my armor, have my page send for my horse, and plan the four-day ride with my men-at-arms, blacksmith, squires, my ward, and my other little toadies who hang around me all day just to come deliver a poem I wrote to you...
Chivalry was a code of honor, dictated by the laws of the land, common sense, and mutual respect. Sir Thomas Mallory wrote a book on it, about the trials and tribulations, the rise and fall of King Arthur. Remember how it ended? The most gallant and chivalrous knight cheated with the queen, and broke the good king's heart! Is that the kind of chivalry we really want? I think the cheating, the heartbreak, and the men who play others, those things still exist quite well.
What can we do to bring it back? First, recognize it when you see it. When a man opens or holds a door or elevator. When he buys you a drink before asking your name, or brings flowers to a first date, or even grabs the check at the restaurant without discussing who's going to pay. Anything he does that he doesn't have to do, to make your life easier, these are throwbacks from chilvary of old. I do them quite frequently, because that's how I was raised... which is another holdover from the days of yore, when parents raised their children to respect others, by showing respect from parent to child.
So, how can you change the world? By raising your children to know that it's not okay for a boy to hit girls, that it's not okay for a girl to lie to boys to get things she wants, and that it's definately bad to lie to anyone. Honor is not gone, it's just changed a lot, and the majority of criminals still play upon our old notions to hurt us when and where they can. That's always been the drawback of chivalry, that the good guy will come in last, but at least he'll feel good about himself; and the woman who's in last place right beside him knows that he could've cheated to come in first, but is so happy that he played by all the rules.
-B. | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/31/2006 9:25:07 AM |
I dont think there's a code for "modern Chivalry" and what one has to do.
We should write one! Here's my opening skeleton of the idea, borrowed from what I take as the older (and antiquated) code of conduct. Add, edit or delete as you all see fit!
- Stronger should stand up for weaker. (Boys don't hit girls, and girls don't take advantage of that. The one who makes more money offers to pay for dinner, the other person leaves the tip. When your partner is upset, listen to the reason, and if you can do something to make them feel better, do it. Open the door for someone who's trailing behind you, or let another car into the busy intersection instead of cutting them off.)
- Earn what you have, and work to keep it. (Don't steal. Don't play others for favors or material possessions. Don't take your significant other for granted, nor your friends or parents.)
- Express your feelings appropriately. (No screaming in the restraunt. Men, give her flowers. Woman, hold his hand. If you're mad that she's looking at other guys, tell her why you're mad when you two are alone. Let the anger go, don't hold it over someone's head.)
- Take only what you need. (Don't be greedy by eating too much, or spending your date's money on lobster when the hamburger would've been just fine. Don't hide significant others from your friends and family. Don't have another booty call waiting in the weeds in case your main target is busy. Don't be a playa. Buy the minivan, because there's no room for a car seat in the farrari.)
- Be honest. (Don't lie. Don't lead anyone on. Don't cheat on your partner. Don't accept drinks from strangers if your boyfriend is out of town, or at work, or in the bathroom. Don't cheat on your partner because she's mad at you, or a hotter gal is drunk enough to let you sleep with her.)
- Always maintain self control. (Don't get drunk enough to regret your choices the next day. Don't start screaming at anyone in public. Never hit anybody who's not posing an imminent threat to your body, or to the physical person of someone else. Don't stare at someone else who's really hot while you're out with your significant other.)
Okay, that's all I can do off the top of my head. Please, continue this list! | |
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| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 10/31/2006 10:11:55 AM | ^The whole church aspect was obviously huge in the classical sense but won't work in todays society. So, add: be true to your maker, whatever you perceive it to be. Follow the path of what is right and true, not what is best.
And there is the patriotism aspect: Defend your borders and those of your allies (globalization) against enemies. Here's the tricky part however since we aren't a bunch of stupid peasants anymore so, challenge injustice as it applies to world politics/economies (the enemy may lie without or within). The leaders of a democratic country are not "the king". The people are king. To be chivalrous one has to be ready to smite thine enemies. More battles are fought with a pen than a sword these days. | |
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