|
|
|
|
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/5/2006 3:48:04 PM | | Sombient, I think these fellows may be correct when they challenge the legitimacy of some of these statistics. Have you read "Who stole feminism"? It brings into question many statistics which neo feminists wouold have us swallow whole. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/5/2006 4:27:10 PM |
With the rate of physical assaults and rape, now 1 in 4 chance in your lifetime as a woman, you can't afford to accept help from a man *under certain conditions*.
More often then not, victims of rape are raped by someone they knew, in their homes. Even if it was 1 in 4, the likelyhood of you being raped by some stranger who stops to offer aid is more like 1 in 20 I'd say. But then again, that's a made up statistic, like most statistics.
The point I was getting at: the number one rape location is in the victims home, and it's usually someone who knew the victim, well.
Scary world we live in, that I'll admit, but don't go jumping to conclusions, that only makes the world that much more scary. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/5/2006 6:02:39 PM | This has gotten off topic.
Department of Justice, official report.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/172837.pdf.
You men are in denial. Fine. Please don't lecture to me when I am citing national studies and you are citing nothing. If you think DOJ is making up these numbers from case reports, that is your *opinion*.
Lets return to topic please. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/5/2006 10:19:15 PM | Age of the victim could be a factor too. It's more likely to happen to a young person (or old person even) and by a perpetrator as quoted: family, friend, boyfriend, etc. Risk factors and demographics are crucial to accurate statistics. Statistics are too general without them. Its like saying, "one out of every 200 people has HIV". I don't know if that's current. But the voire dire point here is the lack of demographics. It scares people.
I stopped to help out 4 girls last night who were standing out in the freezing pouring rain, dripping wet, with their thumbs out. They ran up, took one look at me and said, "you aren't going in the same direction we are." AND THEN slammed my door! I hadn't even said where I was going!...sorry, should have shaved I guess, lol.
Had to jump on the dogpile.  | |
|
ousu
|
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 205 | |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/6/2006 3:08:16 AM | I could easily accept the information offered by the statistics. If you do not like them, how about the real life experience? A rape, harassment, uncomfortable situations…
You learn pretty fast as a female to be careful not to be openly friendly towards strange men approaching you even in a supermarket or in the street. Too often it ends in an uncomfortable situation that your friendliness has been misunderstood as an invitation. Yes, we can always say “no, thanks you” but at least I feel bad when I have to reject somebody. So, in order to avoid awkward situations you learn to keep distance. Same at work, it takes time before you can be sure that the member of opposite sex is honestly just friendly with you instead of testing “testing the ice with a stick”, waiting for the green light to get further. If you once make a mistake and misunderstand the other person’s intentions, it is embarrassing for both parties for a long time and effects on normal interaction.
With total strangers who are offering their help… when you can never know about a person by his appearance what kind of person he is, your chances to get into trouble are 50-50. (The only time I have been near to be raped was when a harmless looking officer offered me a lift from one, just closed checking point to other on Switzerland-Italy border – a man on duty. Hopefully he did not wait in his car for too long for me to get back with my Swedish twin sister.)
If something nasty happens, you will be told how naïve you were, that you should have not known it better, you stupid Little Red Riding Hood: “I told you not to talk with the strangers!”
In my experience this is not something what happens rarely, or belonged to certain age period when you are still more vulnerable. Or has that much to do with your habitus – for example, I wear quite not_provoking clothes / I am an average middle aged / I do not, for sure, give impression of being “weak” or “easy”…
Simply, the risk is too high to be always open and kind. (Notice, you, too, as the one offering some help, can find yourself in a trouble. It is not just men who can have ulterior motives.) I am sure that those who are honestly offering their help, understand also this side of the story and continue on their way without feeling offended. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/6/2006 8:40:02 AM | The ladies are correct. The studies indicate that as metrics improve that approximately half of all Canadian women suffer physical or sexual assault in thier lives. The majority below the age of 18. And about 40% of them by strangers. So there are risks.
Just to point out how the stats get murky, a report that polled men who have ever suffered physical or sexual abuse in thier life, whether at the hands or friends, family, acquaintance or stranger would invariably be almost 100%. The vast majority before the age of 18. And a staggering number with repeated assaults.
In addition, according to Stats Can figures, the safest person you can pick to run to in an assault is a single (unattached) male stranger, and right behind them are mom and dad (Presumably the stat reflects that family violence is a core issue). The absolute worst is a female family member. So much for the myth about a loving caring woman bonding with all the children in her family.
It's a dangerous world out there, no question. That is precisely the reason one needs chivalric, perhaps even heroic, even if tragic figures in thier lives.
Go find one.
Or be one.
If you are one, keep the faith. The world has never needed you more. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/6/2006 5:27:12 PM | >>The studies indicate that as metrics improve that approximately half of all Canadian women suffer physical or sexual assault in thier lives
and for the purposes of these studies, physical or sexual assault is defined as what?
I am reminded of a study of violence on television, in which the tasmanian devil smacking bugs bunny qualified as an act of violence....
Let's be clear on what we are talking about here. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/6/2006 6:02:52 PM | The studies indicate that as metrics improve that approximately half of all Canadian women suffer physical or sexual assault in thier lives and for the purposes of these studies, physical or sexual assault is defined as what?
I am reminded of a study of violence on television, in which the tasmanian devil smacking bugs bunny qualified as an act of violence....
Let's be clear on what we are talking about here.
I think this is an excellent point (this thread has wandered, but in an interesting way).
It's dangerous to talk about this because it risks hurting someone who has been devastated by abuse or an assault, and to them, female or male, I'm very sorry. I wish them peace.
Here's my view: anecdotally, I'd say it's a rare woman who hasn't been inappropriatedly touched or groped at some point. Assault? Sure, technically. Depending on the circumstances, though, not really the end of the world. I'll also bet it's a rarer man who hasn't been roughed up in some way.
What some people fail to take into account is that true predators have many victims. In my case, I've only been physically hurt twice in my life. Once by a groper who grabbed my breast as he rode by on his bike (and yes, that hurt a lot) and once when I was young teen and was grabbed, knocked down, groped and punched by a sad, sick boy, not much older than I was. Here's the thing: he was arrested and charged with more than 50 assaults. How many more victims were there? Probably many.
One perpetrator. Many victims.
How many men for each of the bad guys who would cut off their own right arm before doing such a thing? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Millions?
Careful and cautious is smart for women and men. But living in fear of everyone is truly the fate worse than death, in my opinion.
If I ever get in trouble again, I'd run toward another man if I could, and I'm pretty sure he'd help. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/6/2006 6:21:12 PM | >>Once by a groper who grabbed my breast as he rode by on his bike (and yes, that hurt a lot)
Lewd behavior, certainly. But it was not rape. Assault, perhaps.
I just think it's important to be clear on what we are talking about.
The rape stats can be faulty because of what I call the incredible expanding definition of rape.
Is picking up a drunk, consenting girl at a bar rape? I don't think so. She chose to get drunk, she's not an idiot or a child, she can live with her decisions like any other adult.
A cheap grope is certainly a case of men behaving badly. It isn't rape though.
If you want to tell me that one out of three women will get groped in their lifetime, I would believe you. Actually I suspect it is close to 100%. But when you turn around and call a pinch on the bottom sexual assault, that is disingenous. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/6/2006 6:26:01 PM | If you want to tell me that one out of three women will get groped in their lifetime, I would believe you. Actually I suspect it is close to 100%. But when you turn around and call a pinch on the bottom sexual assault, that is disingenous.
I agree. Depending on the circumstances. If it's a vulnerable person (female or male) trapped in a room with a scary, violent individual twice your size it's a lot more serious than a drunken grope on a dance floor. People need to put things into perspective. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/6/2006 6:27:41 PM | Nope Sombient, if anybody is in denial it's you.
All of those references come from the exact same source.
Would you like a breakdown of the methodology that was used to come up with that 1 in 4 figure ? How about the fact that the study even states very clearly that they multiplied their own results by a factor of ten to account for the rapes and assaults they assume weren't reported. How about the fact that %73 of the people who were deemed to have been raped and assaulted didn't even know it themselves ? Or that most of them were still with their "assaillant" ?
It's bunk. The whole thing is bunk. And like I said, you WANT to believe it.
Here, if you won't take the truth from men, take it from other feminists.
http://www.wendymcelroy.com/ifeminists/2004/0421.html | |
|
| |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/6/2006 9:13:03 PM | Sombient I mean no disrespect. I don't think any opf the people who disagreed with you did. There's no need for anybody to get angry here I think, we're just having a good conversation, about a not-so-good topic. People are bound to get a bit emotional maybe when it comes to something like rape, but let's not turn on each other because some people disagree.
I liked the point that dawn1114 had made about how one person could have many victims. That is a very good point I think. Even going with the assumption that 1 in 4 women are raped, that doesn't mean at all that 1 in 4 men are likely to rape someone. Also, I again make reference to what I said earlier that most occurences of rape are in the victims home, and by someone that the victim knew.
Put those two together, and yes, really, how many men would cut off an arm before doing something like that? Thousands? Millions? I know I would.
And yes, the topic has gone astray... but not in a fashion that I disaprove of, this is an insightful conversation I find. But in regards to the original topic, if I may say just one thing: on page 8 of this thread, SteveHD made a rather lengthy but insightful post, which I believe perfectly sums up everything there is to need to know about Chilvary, why it's dead, and why things might never be the same. I encourage anyone who's interested in the original topic of this thread to go read his post, if you haven't already. I tip my hat to you, SteveHD. | |
|
ousu
|
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 214 | |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/6/2006 11:02:41 PM |
Here's my view: anecdotally, I'd say it's a rare woman who hasn't been inappropriatedly touched or groped at some point. Assault? Sure, technically. Depending on the circumstances, though, not really the end of the world. I'll also bet it's a rarer man who hasn't been roughed up in some way.
"Not really the end of the world", for sure, not. But any kind of uninvited violation of person's personal space is... argh... it feels like rape. Being touched inappropriately,even commented inappropriately (public "Hey, nice ass!") is a message. It tries to put the person to whom it is targeted in the position of an object, something "lower". (This was the problem when Bush was "giving massage" to German chancellor in G8 meeting, not the touch itself - he hardly would have even thought about massaging a male participiant of the meeting in similar way.) The question is about respect - not respecting a certain gender but respecting personal integrity of a person.
- A rape or being approached in inappropriately - the physical part is minor thing compared to the psychological part. Physical marks will disappear with time, psychological humiliation is harder to heal and explain.
Is picking up a drunk, consenting girl at a bar rape? I don't think so. She chose to get drunk, she's not an idiot or a child, she can live with her decisions like any other adult.
Picking up and having sex with a drunk person is not a rape - though tells a lot about the person if s/he has intellionally been counting on the drunk state of the person.
- This, though, reminds me about something else:
There was some time ago a lot of well-meaning articles in the US media (mainly local ones) about how you should not leave your drunk female friends alone in a bar since they might get raped. Many of these articles were - between the lines - putting the responsability of getting drunk on the shoulders of these girls. Correct, it is stupid, but to which we were paying attention was the double message hidden in these statements. None of the articles was talking about the responsability of the guys. The parents were adviced to teach their daughters how to behave but they were not adviced how they should teach their sons that a rape is a rape, aka a crime. It does not matter whether the raped one was drunk or not. The message of the articles - unintentionally - was that the crime was less serious when the girl was drunk (that stupid one, not worth of being respected as a human being). | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/7/2006 4:23:02 PM | | Ok then. Rape is bad. It's upsetting that such a thing happens. It's been proven that it's not so drastic as 1 in 4 women (or at least it's inconclusive). So now that that's out of the way, we should get back to that whole "chivalry" thing. | |
|
| |
| |
ousu
|
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 218 | |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/8/2006 4:33:13 AM | #221
Me: -- any kind of uninvited violation of person's personal space is... argh... it feels like rape.
Smith: And have you experienced both? If not, I propose that you are unqualified to make that statement.
I claim I do not need to be raped to be defined qualified or unqualified to my statement. I cannot talk for everybody but personally I stand behind the idea that it does not matter whether you have managed to avoid actual act (intercourse) or not. For me it sounds as irrelevant as some statements in courtrooms when defence counsel try to minimize the crime by telling that the intercourse lasted only this and that short time, or that the victim was drunk or there was no need to use that much physical force.
For the “object” him/herself the question is about being humiliated; somebody has used power on her/him for which s/he hasn’t any rights. It does not matter what are the motives of the other party, s/he has violated the autonomy, self-determination of harassed one. IMO, too often people are emphasizing the physical part and underestimating the mental, psychological.
After all, you can perform a same act with different attitude, different result. For example, if a friend of mine spanks my ass, I know and feel the attitude behind it: it does not tell me about degrading. When a stranger takes the right to perform the same act against me, the message is totally different.
If the rape as a word disturbs you, you can change it into something else. “Split at the face” just sounds, for me, too mild. Further more, if you have personally experienced both and base your statement on that, I apologize telling that you must be right – at least what becomes to yourself. There is still this tiny option that when we are talking how we feel about something, our feelings are not comparable due to the fact we are individuals. E.g. my personal space could be larger than yours and more sacred (Just thinking about positive, physical approaches, like hand-shaking.) | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/8/2006 4:53:03 AM | I want to know where all these crazy women are who think chivalry and manners/politeness mean that a man is weak. They are corrupting my gentlemen! lol Chivalrous men fear not, those crazy women have not infected the rest of us. lol
I'm so sick of men who message me looking for sex....or immediately question my sexual habits or lack-there-of. I think the maximum amount of time a guy has gone without mentioning sex is....10 minutes. And I mean that as no insult to the entire male side. I do fully understand that I've just had extremely bad luck. ;)
I don't need a man to bow down and kiss the back of my hand. Basic manners ("Please" and "Thank you" or "Pardon me") and some respect for my body and mind are more than I could ever ask. I don't consider it weakness and I don't see how anyone ever would...well, perhaps if they're crazy. lol For me, manners or simply being a gentleman (say, holding a door open or pulling a chair out) is a sign of a strong moral character.
I'd be highly attracted to that person. Not put off by them. lol | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/8/2006 9:30:18 AM | Don't worry to much Shenanigans. While young chivalrous men do tend to get manipulated, abused and doormatted. As they get older if they have not broken or become jaded, or worse, gone over to the dark side, they don't break easy.
You will have the door opened most of the time. Chairs held where appropriate. And they even kiss the backs of hands from time to time under unique circumstances. They are often kind, gentle, and either have commanding presence, or are a bit alone, but somehow compelling. In any event, they all have a core that is as hard as the bones of the earth by the time they get into thier mid to late thirties and are unlikely to be corrupted by anything except a massive personal crisis.
And best of all, they are good men that actually like and respect women. | |
|
| |
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/8/2006 12:15:15 PM | Chivalry ... isn't that when knights worshipped god and got married to honour one of his many laws? ... a wife was a symbol of their love for god and as a result she was to be respected and made love to as many times as it took to bear the fruits (children) of such a holy union ... (cough) after that, I believe they sought true 'humanly love' in the arms of a mistress.
Death to chivalry, I say; common courtesy however ... well that is another matter altogether ... | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/8/2006 3:51:56 PM | I think you are mistaking the role of marriage as a political role, a means to bring together two warring tribes for the sake of the greater good and common weal.
Naturally, such a union may or may not enjoy "true love". That doesn't make it a bad thing. It was important and involved alot of different kinds of love, duty, and obligation as a person of power and influence.
Lancelot and Guinevere (sp?) are two of the most dispicable people in my eyes... placing their own passion before the wellbeing of their people.
Nevertheless, it was chivalry that eventually raised the entire question of marriage or true love, and examined it in great detail via the lit. of the Troubadours (sp?). This was mostly an aristocratic concern, but we can see the same in "loveless", passionless maybe?!?, marriages of present and not so long ago. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/8/2006 5:56:06 PM | A really good start would be to allow us to be men.
We want to have our space... we want a space that is male only. We want to be appreciated for the lawns we mow, the toilets we fix, the cars we look after.
We'd like to hear that the extra hours we spend at the office, at work, or goofin' with kids is recognised rather than critisized.
We are raised to make money. We are told that that is our main function in life. Because I don't do romantic things for you 24/7 doesn't mean I don't love you. The oil I changed today was an act of love.
If I say I'm going fishing with the guys, allow me to do that without questioning it. That's what I'm doing. I'm not going to a night club to dance with women. I don't like dancing. I will dance with you because I feel obligated, not because I like it.
Let me change diapers the way I want to do it. If I want to play "guns" with my kids, shut up about it. I'd rather they learn about the proper way to handle a firearm than from some kid who found his dad's gun case key. Because I do things differently as a father than you do as a mother doesn't make my way of doing things wrong.
If I want to watch sports, go for cheese cake and coffee with your girl friends. Don't start the frigging Hoover to piss me off just because you think you are more important.
Accept things I do without criticism.
Accept the fact that I really do have all of the same emotions that you do, I just happen to express them in different ways.
That is just FANTASTIC would you mind if I quoted it elsewhere, I am more than happy to attribute it to you in ANY manner you should wish. | |
|
| did women kill chivalry? what do we need to do to bring it back?
Posted: 11/9/2006 6:07:55 AM | You want to call the State of Washington a liar? Go ahead.
I believe it - many times it goes unreported
Not to mention the serial rapists and killers that lived here - Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway
It doesn't just happen to women - men are also victims of rape | |
|
|
| Page 9 of 11
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 |
|
Home
login 
