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| Officially sanctioned witch hunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/9/2007 1:19:44 PM | You are not required to give your SSN to anyone. You have other identification that you can use.
If you don't want to give it to them, don't. I don't.
The government will enforce existing law when enough citizens raise enough hell to take back the government. It's supposed to be OURS, not theirs.
Flood them with letters. Vote them out. Let them know that you have had it with the status quo.
Government is an AGREEMENT between those who govern, and those who are governed.
If it is skewed to either side, it is not government.
The illegals are not the problem. As long as people think they will be able to survive better somewhere else, they will go there.
The government that allows them in, is. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/11/2007 3:47:00 PM | *****Any comments or suggestions to EASE the tensions amongst Hazelton residents and speculations about the legality of these "municipal" ordinances?*****
Legality: Cities and therefore municipal ordinances do not have the legal right to define residency or make laws regarding it. Those are functions reserved to either the "state" or the "federal government". For a city to create such a municipal ordinace, or for that matter to create an ordinance "protecting" immigrants (I won't even bother to get into the moras created by the term "illegal", is to usurp powers reserved to the state and federal government.
Easing the tensions requires political leadership and it appears that the political leadership in Hazelton is more concerned about developing a political base that will ensure their maintenance of power than in efficiently managing their problems. One potential way to solve the economic cost of undocumented workers would be for the federal government to negotiate agreements with the countries from which said workers originated in which any welfare costs incurred by said workers would be billed to their country of origin. Until your a citizen of the country in which you reside, you should remain the economic responsibility of your country of citizenship. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/11/2007 4:18:02 PM | It is a little late to go on the warpath over something that happened long before you were born. I am Americam born and have worked for everything I have. I don't break the laws. This country is governed by our laws not Illegals.
Hmm. Are you sure your ancestors came here "legally?" Unless your sure, perhaps you were "born" here illegally.
For example from 1886 till 1943 it was illegal under the Chinese Exclusion Act, for any chinese to immigrate to the United States. For some time after the act was repealed, only 150 some were permitted annually. In the last decade of the 19th century approximately 20% of the state of Montana was Chinese. By the end of the first decade of the twentieth century only about 1400 remained. The biggest effect of these laws was to create a hard to erase anti-American sentiment through much of Asia. Oklahoma originally was a "reservation" in which indians, who were outlawed from their traditional homelands, were placed. Indeed, when the supreme court ruled in favor of the native American nations, President Andrew Jackson, replied that the Supreme court had made its decision so it could enforce that decision and proceeded with "Indian" removal anyway. Oklahoma was subsequently "illegally" taken from those native Americans. One needs to be careful about talking about the "sanctity of law" when we have historically ignored our own laws on such issues whenever we saw it to our advantage to do so. In fact, that is what we--i.e. American business--continues to do. And we blame the immigrants? Come on.
Current laws appear intentionally biased against "legal" entrance into the US of residences of those American countries to our south. Businesses seeking to maintain competitive costs rely on those immigrants. I suppose you are all willing to pay $8/gallon of milk as in Japan? How about $10/$15 per pound of beef? $5/head of lettuce? Everyone is complaining about the "cost" of said immigrants, but few would be willing to pay the cost of "ejecting" them, much less the "cost" that would come from living in an environment in which they could not be used. Many of those most rabid in their anti-immigrant assertions would be equally rabid in complaining about the effects of their removal.
Side note: My ancestors who were not native american arrived, on one side, in 1670s and on the other side in 1690s. Since they were here prior to the country's beginnings, they are about as "legal" as one can get. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/11/2007 5:07:58 PM | Not that it means anything anymore (what does?), but the July/August issue of Military History has an interesting piece describing how we have gotten into all our wars since the Revolution.
It appears that James Polk wanted the land that belonged to the Mexicans and so connived to start a war with Mexico, after which we now own that land, including California and most of the places from which all the anti-illegals sentiment resides.
Can't blame the Mexicans much for feeling that it is rightfully theirs, nor can you blame the Native-Americans for still feeling that they were screwed. They were.
But they appear to have a plan to get it back. All the Euro-Americans are losing all their money to the Indian casinos, and the Indians will buy back the land, and then win the money again, and then serve eviction notices.
Actually, they seem too nice to do that. The ones I know.
I was once married to a Mexican woman. One of her brothers told me how he had sneaked across the border and made his way all the way to Huron, CA, to work in the fields picking cantaloupe. Back-breaking work, and the night before payday, La Migra (US Immigration officials) appeared. Who is using whom?
All we need is to enforce the existing laws. 
http://www.historynet.com/magazines/military_history | |
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| Officially sanctioned witch hunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/11/2007 5:42:15 PM | prof...Thank you for your very enlightening well informed posts.
I believe most all Americans realize that our immigration laws are outdated and have no problem with sound, well maintained reworked, new laws.
We all realize that the major push behind immigration and work visa's is big business and labor cost.
The major problem and concern is the situation we now find ourselves in as a country and the effects on the working, tax paying middle and lower classes. We are all intelligent enough to know, government has ignored the problem and not enforced the laws as they now stand. No one advocates closed borders and NO ADMITANCE of foreign immigrants and workers of any type. We realize that big business, is for the most part, the one who gains through immigration and work visas, through profits and for most part greed is the driving force behind our situation today.
But it can not continue as it has. Major changes must take place. Changes in laws, enforcement and we must do something about the problem as it now stands in regards to "illegal aliens", "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented bodies"....what ever one chooses to call all the people here, who have broken the immigration laws that now stand. It can not continue, nor can it continue to be ignored or go unresolved.
For the most part, the major objection .....is consideration of ignoring the laws broken and rewards given to law breakers and no solution to the acts continuing in the future. (crossing the borders, without proper papers and identification in the states)
When I speak of laws broken, its not just the immigration laws of entering or staying in the country unlawfully. The other crimes associated with the original are far to numerous to even attempt to list......stolen identities, fake drivers licences, gangs, drugs, IRS fraud from working for cash and no payment of income taxes, defrauding the medical system by not paying for medical care ( having no intention of ever to pay for services received), defrauding social services, driving without drivers licences and auto insurance, trafficking in transportation of "illegals", employing undocumented workers and on and on.....
So how bout sharing some of your ideas on resolution to these complex problems.
How can any Nation stand on integrity and morals and teach our young people right from wrong and to obey the laws of the land, if special interest are rewarded for doing just the opposite? | |
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| Officially sanctioned witch hunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/11/2007 6:00:16 PM | prof48 wrote:"One potential way to solve the economic cost of undocumented workers would be for the federal government to negotiate agreements with the countries from which said workers originated in which any welfare costs incurred by said workers would be billed to their country of origin. Until your a citizen of the country in which you reside, you should remain the economic responsibility of your country of citizenship"
We tried that in the 40's-60's it was called the Bracero Program,the workers were payed but it was put into a US and Mexican savings fund.The problem is when the workers claimed their pay the Mexican government renegged and claimed clerical errors.
http://www.farmworkers.org/benglish.html | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/11/2007 8:44:37 PM | To respond to a poster above, I don't think cost of goods will go up so much that we'll have 5 dollar heads of lettuce if illegal aliens leave the country. I believe pro-illegal immigration groups and individuals have been spreading that around(exaggerating price increases if illegal aliens leave) to scare people into giving up on trying to do anything about illegal immigration. Check out this link which talks about what price increases might be like if illegal aliens leave.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_immigrants_economy.html
Also, when you talk of the cost of ejecting illegal immigrants, you seem to be referring to deporting all of them. There is a much cheaper way of causing illegal aliens to leave, just make sure that they cannot get jobs illegally or get welfare, then most of them will leave on their own. Thats the cheapest and most sensible way to solve the problem that I am aware of. Of course when you have a president like Bush in office who does not want to enforce laws against illegal immigration, you have a real problem to overcome.
I don't think digging up past history is particularly helpful in solving the problems we are facing today. You can focus on what your ancestors did in past wars, and be overwhelmed by shame and guilt and depression to the point that you allow others to take advantage of you, walk all over you and make you suffer, and cause you to not want any laws at all on immigration enforced and allow the country to be flooded with too many people and end up like China with crushing overpopulation that makes people miserable and makes them despair. If you look into the past histores of every continent(except perhaps Antarctica), bad things happened that people living their today do not like and wish never happened. Wars in the past over land that were unjust, just or a little of both. The North American continent is no different. Should all countries on those contients reach back into their histories hundreds of years (why not thousands of years too while we are at it)and punish themselves for every wrong that was ever committed there? For instance, should current citizens of Italy be punished because Romans in the past owned slaves? Should any of those present day italians who can trace lineage back to roman slave owners then allow themselves to be used as slaves for the rest of their lives by the descendants of those slaves?
I think you see what I am getting at. We can look back on past history(going all the way back to the stone age in some places) of bad things our forefathers did, regret it, and learn from it and move on, or we can dwell on the bad things our forefathers did and be consumed by guilt, depression and shame and let it ruin our lives and our children's lives. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witch hunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/12/2007 10:53:14 AM |
We tried that in the 40's-60's it was called the Bracero Program,the workers were payed but it was put into a US and Mexican savings fund.The problem is when the workers claimed their pay the Mexican government renegged and claimed clerical errors.
Hmmm. Interesting but not exactly what I suggested, unless I misunderstand your explanation of the braceros program. What I am suggesting is that for visas to the US from a particular country to be approved there be in place a treaty with the government that they gaurantee US government expenses relating to any person--legal or otherwise--a citizen of that country. So, if the person is arrested legally, their jail expense is billed to the country of origin. If the person requires hospitalization, it is billed to the country (unless the person pays or their insurance pays). By reciprocity the US would guarantee expenses incurred by a foreign government the relating to US citizens in their countries. The issue would not be a matter of worker's collecting their pay, but of governments gauranteeing the well being and behavior of their citizens abroad. Failure to pay could be enforced by refusal to grant visas to people from that country until the government paid up for the costs of the previous year. The biggest problem I see with this would be the foreign government denying the undocumented workers were citizens or residents of their country. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witch hunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/12/2007 11:16:17 AM | So how bout sharing some of your ideas on resolution to these complex problems.
To be honest my own belief in "open borders" is so far out of the mainstream of current political thought as to be not worth debating. I think the "Berlin Wall" is being moved to the Mexican Border and that rather than addressing global issues that influence migration both into and out of countries, most countries--and especially the US--try to obtain the benefits of global relationships without being willing to pay for their costs. Our standard of living is subsidized by cheap labor and poor environmental standards in China and third world countries to which "international" businesses have turned to avoid our own environmental and labor standards. Yet environmental and labor issues are not considered legitimate components of "trade agreements." The easiest solution to the undocumented workers would be fair wages in Mexico and South America. So, why isn't the right to unionize, a part of NAFTA? Why isn't the setting of food safety standards, environmental standards and labor standards--minimum wages, etc.--a part of any trade agreement. Those are costs of production and eliminating them from the cost base provides unequal competitive advantages that drive workers to those regions for which wage scale is highest and jobs to those regions where the "costs of production" are lowest. The worker in mexico who comes to the US driving down our wages gets 8 to 10 times the wages he would get in Mexico. How about demanding that Mexico set wage and labor standards that protect their own people. Seems to me thats no different than our demnding Russia set political standards protecting their citizens who wanted to flee oppression. Unfortunately those issues are also complex and the first response one gets is that we should stay out of other nation's internal affairs. That works for me, only so long as they are not, as a result of their internal affairs affecting the internal affairs of my country. These are not easy solutions, but I think ultimately they will be necessary. At the same time I think they will indirectly help in limiting job flight from the US which is the flip side of undocumented immigration. I don't think the two issues are truly seperable. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witch hunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/13/2007 9:17:00 AM | To put it in a nutshell, seems to me that you are advocating that the US tries to influence other countries, or just plain TELL them how to do things. Yeah right, that's real reasonable.
Or is it that you are one of those people that feel we "owe" something to every other country, and it should be our responsibility to "fix" everything that is wrong with them?
I would have to disagree with both of those ideas, especially the one about us having those open borders (as if that wouldn't just make things worse than they already are).
Let Mexico deal with their issues, and regulate their own laws (reap what they sow). And let the US stand by the laws we have, or just make them stricter. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witch hunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/13/2007 9:54:49 PM | Mexico is trying to tell the US how to deal with the illegals comming in our souther border...
Mexican military has even been guarding the illegals as they cross and daring the US border patrol to try to stop them.
WE ARE BEING INVADED.
We need to respond with our military being tasked with guarding our border. (one of the primary reasons to HAVE the military forces...) | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/15/2007 2:04:08 AM | message 716, i know how to eliminate an apostrophe error. the response remains the same. of the three testimonials on the website you furnish, and ONLY three testimonials...not one is mexican. if you are going to substantiate, perhaps you should read the material first.
regarding the post on australia's christian heritage, i believe it was founded as a prison colony, was it not? at least that's what my australian friend from pof just humorously reminded me!!! hmmmm..... are we not going backwards here with respect to upholding the law by using a prison model of conduct? 
good to see some fresh, intelligent blood on this site.
i did miss one comment from above from aikiman that i would like to respond to as well. when i first developed this thread, the thing that stood out the most to me (being unaware at that time of the emotional issues that have been raised here on an ongoing basis) was the implication of setting legal "precedent" to REQUIRE people to register their living quarters with the local govt. it was beginning to sound like my stay in romania many years ago via a tour run by my undergrad alma mater. i say that country because it was the only communist country i ever visited and the local police just about followed us everywheres and people were quite fearful to get in trouble for talking to us.
once a law is set in place, typically the legal ramifications reach way beyond the initial purpose and i feared the future impact on american "citizen" freedom. after all, everyone was required to register so that they could be sure no one was illegal. or so they say at the time of this particular law being written.
i am glad, therefore that you "got it". not many others have. i had not thought this down to the level of the constitution, and wonder if you could play out a " what if" scenario. for example, what if this law were allowed to remain "as is"? what if the aclu did not object? what could be built upon it, that might make people wince if they really were to project it's implications into the future and not just think about the tactical solution it offers to their concerns regarding crime, gangs,etc. ? what could happen to usa citizens throughout the country if they were ALL required to check in with the local governments everytime they moved into a new apartment. would it not be possible, if our government was to continue to expand upon it's recently acuired powers, to misuse this enforcement? it seems like this would be a conspiracy theorist's nightmare., would it not?
redwood, feel free to take this from the other end. as you know, i usually don't agree with your perspective, but i know you do your homework and i believe you are respectful of different opinions, versus ethnic banter. you look at the laws and you procede with how you see the laws. i am interested in the LEGAL issue, the proposed solution and it's ramifications if not addressed properly and fairly.
will check back in few days, have a nice week everyone! | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/15/2007 11:08:37 AM | i think i mentioned the two people who rammed into my car were middle aged white men (two whiplashes, on in nj and one in ca) . maybe we should get the full picture on what percent of the TOTAL car accidents or uninsured drivers are illegal immigrants--irrespective of whether mexican or else be sure to break down by ethnicity. not all illegals are mexican.
BY THE WAY, CURIOUS: what is the ethic mix of america's most wanted? and why is it, that that the white kids have money to get out of the same charges that they are giving "years" of time in prison (CA strike law) to minority kids who rely on the overswamped public defender's office? heard of racial profiling? working with foster kids and getting good attorneys, it amazes me how they get off when represented properly. otherwise, here they spend 20 years to life for faking a robbery with a finger in their pocket --rapists and child molesters get out in six months or are not even prosecuted when it comes to foster kids being abused by them in the first place. and i doubt very much that the significant number of rapists here are illegal. most of them are friends and family members.
my point: don't use inverse stats and resort to skape goating for all of life's evils. if you give an example, there are many others for legal citizens and all ethnic groups. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/15/2007 11:52:32 AM | It's my understanding that the IIRA that Haz. is trying to enact no longer requires renters to register with the city. I may be wrong about that, I'll be the first to admit that I don't understand all the legalize , so I'm posting the link for anyone who cares to read about the IIRA for themselves.
http://www.smalltowndefenders.com/public/node/6
The way I understand it is that Haz. is going after illegal aliens but the businesses and industries that knowingly hire illegal aliens, and the landlord who knowingly rents to illegal aliens, much as the Federal Government goes after businesses and industry that hires illegal aliens.
I can see both sides of this issue, and I'll admit if taken to extreme it can become a slippery slope if cities start enacting illegal immigration laws, but I think until the Federal Government starts enforcing the immigration laws already on the books more and more cities are going to try enacting these types of ordinances. If nothing else maybe at least cities trying to enact these types of ordinances will get the governments attention on the subject of immigration.
Serenity, I don't mean this in an offensive way, I enjoy reading your posts and think you are fair and open minded, but it seems to me you are making a generalization and stereotyping when you say
and why is it, that that the white kids have money to get out of the same charges that they are giving "years" of time in prison
There are plenty of white kids who are poor and don't have the money to hire private attorney's. There are plenty of white poor kids in prison, and plenty of white kids in foster care. Not every white person is well off, so let's not perpetuate the rich whittie stereotype.
I don't think it's so much about skin color, I think it's about who has the most dollars . Black, red, yellow, white, the one with the most dollars can afford to buy the best . lol But that's a topic for a different thread. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/16/2007 9:39:29 PM | Just wanted to share an article in the New York Times regarding NumbersUSA's impact on the voted down, Senate Bill for mass amnesty. Roy Beck, President shares some of the background behind the organization and goals for the future impact on illegal alien legislation aims.
immigrationinfo@numbersusa.com
From: Roy Beck, President, NumbersUSA
Date: Sunday 15JUL07 12:15 a.m. EDT
NumbersUSA featured in New York Times --- Moving closer to mandatory workplace verification
DEAR FOES OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION,
The New York Times is something of the sacred scriptures of America's Opinion Elites and The Establishment, both of which overwhelmingly supported the giant amnesty that you just helped defeat in the Senate.
So, it is quite an event for the Times in its Sunday paper to put such a spotlight on NumbersUSA.
(Click here to read the Times article on its website -- or see text below.)
It is rather funny that NumbersUSA is getting so much media attention recently. Even though tens of thousands of you have been having a big impact on Members of Congress for years, your collective efforts are just now being noticed by most of the media who are trying to figure out how The Establishment could have lost so badly on the immigration issue. A lot of the media are now concluding that you all have been a kind of secret weapon.
Well, you aren't so secret now.
I think the more The Establishment hears about you and your size the more it will respect the possibility that it needs to change its position.
Although I'm not overly optimistic, I hope The Establishment will decide that there is no need to keep fighting to protect the ability of businesses to hire illegal aliens.
I can tell you from the last six days of our meetings with several Democratic Members of the House, with a number of their Republican counterparts, with fellow advocacy groups and with top Senate GOP staffers, there is very strong growing sentiment that it is time to remove the jobs magnet for illegal immigration.
The overwhelming favorite appears to be to make the "Basic Pilot" electronic workplace verification system mandatory for all businesses with contracts with the federal government.
We may have the opportunity this week to mobilize you to help make that happen in several places. This would be a tremendous next step in forcing the expansion of that verification program that could eventually keep most illegal aliens from obtaining a job. Without a job, most illegal aliens will go home.
As always, watch your in-box for emailed Action Alerts letting you know of critical opportunities.
And be sure you have taken all the actions you favor that are listed on your customized Action Buffet at:
www.NumbersUSA.com/actionbuffet
Congratulations again on all the work you did that caused this New York Times article to be written.
The New York Times
July 15, 2007
A Little-Known Group Claims a Victory on Immigration
By ROBERT PEAR
WASHINGTON, July 14 — When a comprehensive immigration bill collapsed last month on the Senate floor, it was a victory for a small group that had been lobbying Congress for a decade to reduce the number of immigrants — legal and illegal — in the United States.
The group, Numbers USA, tracked every twist and turn of the bill. Its members flooded the Senate with more than a million faxes, sent through the organization’s Web site. It supplied arguments and information to senators opposing the bill.
“It was a David-and-Goliath struggle,” said Roy H. Beck, the president of Numbers USA, who had been preparing for this moment since 1996, when he wrote a book titled “The Case Against Immigration.”
Supporters of the bill included President Bush, the United States Chamber of Commerce, the high-tech industry, the Roman Catholic Church, many Hispanic organizations, farmers, restaurants, hotels and the construction industry.
“The bill had support from the opinion elite in this country,” Mr. Beck said. “But we built a grass-roots army, consumed with passion for a cause, and used the power of the Internet to go around the elites and defeat a disastrous amnesty bill.”
The measure, which died on June 28, would have offered legal status and a path to citizenship to millions of illegal immigrants and created a new temporary worker program while increasing border security.
“Numbers USA initiated and turbocharged the populist revolt against the immigration reform package,” said Frank Sharry, executive director of the National Immigration Forum, a pro-immigrant advocacy group. “Roy Beck takes people who are upset about illegal immigration for different reasons, including hostility to Latino immigrants, and disciplines them so their message is based on policy rather than race-based arguments or xenophobia.”
Representative Brian P. Bilbray, Republican of California and chairman of the Immigration Reform Caucus, said, “We’re involved in weekly discussions with Numbers USA and other immigration-control groups as part of a team effort.”
Numbers USA had fewer than 50,000 members at the end of 2004, but now counts more than 447,000, with an increase of 83 percent since January alone.
Turning to the next phase of the debate, those members will push for enforcement of existing laws and new measures to curb the employment of illegal immigrants.
“Our No. 1 legislative goal is to begin a system of mandatory workplace verification, to confirm that every employee is a United States citizen or an alien authorized to work in this country,” said Rosemary E. Jenks, director of government relations at Numbers USA.
The organization wants to reduce immigration — as Mr. Beck says in the subtitle of his book — for “moral, economic, social and environmental reasons.”
He contends that immigrants and their children are driving population growth, which he says is gobbling up open space, causing urban sprawl and creating more traffic congestion.
Moreover, Mr. Beck asserts that immigrants and temporary workers, by increasing the supply of labor, have depressed wages in industries from meatpacking to information technology. Numbers USA has worked most closely with conservative Republicans, but in recent weeks has built alliances with Democrats who share the concern.
Numbers USA keeps a scorecard showing every vote by every member of Congress on immigration-related issues since 1989. The group assigns a letter grade to each member.
Lawmakers who received an A-plus were all Republicans and included Representatives J. Dennis Hastert of Illinois and Tom Tancredo of Colorado, a presidential candidate. The lowest grades — F-minuses — went to Democrats, including Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Representative Joe Baca of California, chairman of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus.
Numbers USA objects to proposals that increase the number of legal or illegal immigrants. It steers clear of debates over the allocation of visas.
“It does not matter to us whether a visa goes to a high-tech worker, a farm worker or the sibling of a U.S. citizen,” Mr. Beck said.
Numbers USA is one of many organizations fostered by John H. Tanton, an ophthalmologist from Michigan who has also championed efforts to protect the environment, limit population growth and promote English as an official language.
Critics like the Southern Poverty Law Center and Representative Chris Cannon, Republican of Utah, have described Dr. Tanton as a father of the anti-immigration movement. Mark A. Potok, a senior researcher at the law center, called Numbers USA the “kinder, gentler side of that movement.”
Mr. Beck said Numbers USA had been independent of Dr. Tanton since 2002. On the group’s Web site, Mr. Beck cautions against “immigrant bashing” and says, “Even illegal aliens deserve humane treatment as they are detected, detained and deported.”
In the fight over the Senate bill, Numbers USA had daily conference calls with conservative groups like the Heritage Foundation and the Eagle Forum.
For tax purposes, Numbers USA has two arms, an educational foundation and an advocacy group that lobbies Congress. Together, Mr. Beck said, they have a budget of $3 million this year, but will probably raise and spend $4.5 million.
Mr. Beck said that in the past the group received about two-thirds of its money from foundations like the Colcom Foundation of Pittsburgh and the Weeden Foundation in New York. Many of these foundations have an interest in conservation.
Numbers USA has raised the rest of its money from individual contributors over the Internet. The group collects detailed information on its members — their ethnic background, politics, religious affiliations, occupations and concerns — so it can choose the most effective advocates on any particular issue.
In a survey question on religion, the group said the information would be useful because many lawmakers were likely to respond better to people with “a very similar religious worldview.”
“This is our citizen army,” Mr. Beck said, pointing to a map that showed members of his group in every Congressional district.
-----END OF ARTICLE-----
By the way, you can read my book (mentioned in the story) and print it for free at:
THE CASE AGAINST IMMIGRATION, published by W.W. Norton & Co., New York
Unfortunately, very little in the book is out of date even though it was published 11 years ago.
You can read a description of the book and blurbs from several reviews on our website.
Finally let me thank all of you who have provided the financial support that has been the "match" that foundations have to have in order to provide their grants to us. Your donations are important all by themselves, but they are doubly important since they make it possible to receive foundation funds.
We will be using all of our resources the rest of this summer trying to increase the number of companies using the electronic verification systems -- and squeezing more and more illegal workers out of our jobs and communities. Georgia and Arizona and Colorado legislatures have paved the way by forcing this for businesses in their state.
HELP REMOVE THE JOBS MAGNET | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/16/2007 10:06:43 PM | I've met alot of Mexicans in the bay area here who are really great people... even in-laws and close friends. We need to be tolerant. -anticon.
People who say things like this have probably never had to compete with Mexicans for a job. The restaurant industry has always been my bread and butter. Unfortunately, it has become a field that is very attractive to Hispanics. Now, it has become clear that I need to find a new trade. Namely, one that a person who can't speak English can't get. Why should a company hire and pay me the wages I'm accustomed to getting when there 100 Hispanics lined up at the door, begging for the chance to do my job for half as much? It isn't like it was 100 years ago when immigrants came to this country and usually had to learn English in order to get a job and blend in. Today, Hispanics can live in purely Hispanic neighborhoods, work in jobs with only other Hispanics, shop in Hispanic stores, listen to dozens of Hispanic radio stations, etc. etc. What does he care about the American citizens who wish he would learn English? Studies are projecting that in the year 2040 Hispanics will be the dominate population in California. More than whites, blacks, Asians, EVERYBODY! Hey, California! Do you still want to give them a great big group hug? | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/28/2007 3:24:01 PM | Mayor Lou Barletta suffers a setback, but feels he will win in the end. Read more here:
http://www.standardspeaker.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5618&Itemid=2
We need more politicians with courage like this.  | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/29/2007 6:30:34 PM | prof48~
i have read some of your posts and although don't agree with you, being on the other end of the political spectrum, i did found them interesting, refreshing, and thought provoking...
you mentioned that you are more of an open-borders guy. i was wondering if you are an anarchist by political pursuation. while i can see the idealism behind such a position, and it does sound very provacative, i am not sure if it is all that workable in practice. if you have any thoughts on this i'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.
how workable would it be to have completely open borders, and would it make null and void our current political system?
lar | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/29/2007 11:20:38 PM | two extra tidbits and on a positive note (for me at least  ) :
it appears that new haven, connecticut in a 25 to 1 vote has approved an ID card, filling what is described as "the congressional vacuum from failure to act on immigration reform".
it appears that undocumented workers are often targeted by thieves and robbed because they carry cash, a result of not being able to open a bank account because they don't have forms of identification that are considered "valid" . thus, one report cited two banks had already agreed to accept the new city card, which will be offered to "all new haven residents", as legitimate identification sufficient for opening an account.
further on in the article i read, it says that nyc and san francisco are considering similar laws.
source: just google illegal immigration and connecticut. lots of info.
the mercury news also had an interesting article on birth rates in CA ( which i will cross reference with alcura's thread) which indicated a future CA population of greater than 50 percent--primarily legal, spanish speaking citizens and not counting illegals. the concern of the article was that the larger family size was correlated with lack of education, citing that caucasians, african americans and asians were demonstrating decreased family size in CA as educational levels rose for those groups.
the population was spread differently throughout the state, however OVERALL concern is that if the overall populace does not assume responsibility for educating it's citizens properly (including english language) , then the economic health of the state will go down. in particular, housing values will go down and all the baby boomers who count on the value of their real estate will be very, very surprised as it too will plummet down.
so, start mentoring people. if you don't believe in illegal immigration, then mentor legal immigrants. it's happening, whether you like it or not. so at even from the selfish perspective, you owe it to yourself to keep your areas up to par. besides, if the kids are mentored, they won't be in such a rush to join that gang!
sweetie, happy to talk to you about the prison and foster population privately, just cannot email you (i guess i'm not your type and you blocked us CA women!) . sorry, but the "rates" are higher for minorites. but yes, it is due to income and income to many other factors. so, in essence and as is usual, we both end up at the same place from different ends: wringing our hands and trying to do the right thing. hang in. i have no question in my mind, that despite your concerns (which differ from my concerns) , you are always a good neighbor! | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/30/2007 10:18:43 AM | What concerns me about the New Haven ID card is that it's allowed for banking purposes. It seems to me it would be a very easy way to allow criminals or terrorists to set up bank accounts in which to stash money.
I don't see how the city card can be used for banking in the city when the banking industry is under federal regulations. When I wanted to set up a new bank account I had to have approved forms of ID such as a state drivers license or a state ID card. My bank told me the banking laws were getting very strict since 911 so as I said I just don't see how New Haven is getting away with this and it's worry some.
As for the argument that illegals are getting robbed because they have large amounts of money stashed. All I ever hear is how illegals are just "poor" hard working people, if that's the case then were are they getting all this extra money they need to have a place to stash ?
It's been ruled illegal for Hazleton to make employers check the legal status of their employees, it's been ruled illegal for Hazleton to make landlords check the legal status of their tenants, but it's legal for New Haven to issue ID cards that would be an acceptable form of ID to open bank accounts in New Haven. There is something definitely wrong with this picture, especially in now in this day and age were the Federal Government is pushing for national ID cards and is concerned about national security.
We have to stop being a nation of towns, and cities, and states divided. Diversity is fine, but we also have to have common bonds that unite us as a country or the USA is going to crumble. This is AMERICA, the USA, not Mexico, or China, or France, or Italy, I want to celebrate the culture of America, the American way, not the culture of some other country. It's time for immigrants to become Americanized if the want to make America their home, not try to live in America but yet hang on to the ways of their homeland.
Sure it's cute for business and tourism purposes to walk through Chinatown, or have some other ethnic districts for shopping and dining, but when people start forming their own ethnic communities in order to hang on to the ways and customs of the country they left it's time to wonder what is going on in America. We can't have people living in one city as if they were still living in Mexico, another city as if it's residents were living in France, and other city as if it's residents were living in Germany, etc. A country is made up of people who basically have the same way of life. We need common threads that unite us. Diversity in a country is good, division is bad.
America is or should I say was a "melting pot". A melting pot means things blend, merge together, it doesn't mean each thing retains it's own individual identity. It's time immigrants merged into the melting pot instead of wanting to live in the USA but keep the mindset of the country of their birth.
One more thing than I'll get off my soapbox. lol I'm not only against illegal immigration I'm also for quotas, a limit to how many people from a particular country will be allowed into the USA each year, but I guess that's a topic for a different thread. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/30/2007 9:07:26 PM | i said they carried cash, i didn't say they were millionaires! banks will take anyone's money. at least i thought so. here in the silicon valley, there are so many with visas that it's probably a good percentage of the business. in fact, here banks won't provide a notary republic because of the international traffic and not wanting to have the liablity. back east, the banks were the major source of notarization.
now remember, i said the ID card reflecting that you "lived" in that city. i am guessing that is like having the post office verify your address in order to get a mailbox key here where i live. all i had to do was provide the documentation which would be a lease or purchase/mortgage document . or, for example, when i was a kid going to grad school , i had to prove i lived independently from my parents, so i provided two acceptable bills such as utility bills, and then i qualified for a sch0larship. i assume it's something similar and not too complicated. i didn't research that much further, but i'm sure you can find out if it draws parallels to your situation.
i'm not trying to upset you sweetie. larger cities who have evolved over time are not as traumatized as a small town that is suddenly overtaken by another culture. and of course, people there in connecticut were against it. but in many areas where there is work that no one wants, the people do not care, as long as they don't have gangs.
yes, i know some of you say they are getting the good jobs. but there are many getting the lousy jobs in other areas. many of these people are hard working. no one asks if they are illegal. the other day i had my car washed. everyone there doing the "hard" work was mexican. it was brutally hot. one woman had sweat dripping down her brow. i planned to tip her really well and asked another woman why she used this particular car wash. she said, the people worked hard, they let you know if you had a nail or whatever in your tires, they did the best job and many were there for "years". apparently all the people who could afford it, tipped the people very well.
did i ask for her papers? no. did any of the kids i know or younger people want to work there? no. this area is a higher income area or if lower income, people bought their houses 30 years ago, so they can afford to stay. but nobody here wants to do this kind of work to the degree that it's available. even the supermarkets cannot get enough people to work there. is that every town in the usa? certainly not. if you ran over here to work for that wage, could you afford it? only if you had saved a lot to now buy a house that is way expensive or if you are into fixer uppers (yo) or if you were willing to rent a room or very small place. then again you can move into a surrounding area. does the cheaper area have gangs? yes. and they come here on the highway and they shoot each other. what about the people sweating away at the carwash. they are saving to get far away from the gangs and to get their kids into college, because they never had the chance. how do i know? i asked them.
this is a melting pot, but it's more like a stew than a bisque. different areas have different isseus and some have changed very gradually whereas others have bombarded and collided. again, if you have a major redesign in industry, they bring in people even legally from out of the country for lesser wages nowadays or better still, they'll hire your friend's kid who knows nothing and takes away your job for a lesser fee and train her/him right under your nose. i walked out of a high position when i saw that game. so, then a year or two later, they'll hire you back because nothing has worked, but you will have lost your tenure anyways or maybe they'll have you join a temp agency and you'll become a subcontractor with no benefits. change is all over. everyone survives in a different way. not all of it can be blamed on "illegal immigration" . this is an "international " phenomenon. you have to see where it benefits you, while you are hanging on to the past. as i've said before, americans are retiring at an increasing number to mexico! so i want to do that? no. i'll probably end up turning my house into a boarding home or commune if i have to. but many couples are planning to leave for mexico or costa rica. who knows? if i did n't have lymes, i might be willing. who knows? i may have no choice in the future. however, i am one of those people who would rather know than not know. some find knowing too stressful. hang in. come visit if you want and i'll show you around sweetie. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/30/2007 10:21:58 PM | Serenity I choose to live in a small town, that doesn't mean I'm ignorant of the way the world is turning, so please try not to be so condescending. You don't have to "show me around", and I assure you I don't find the changing world to stressful. lol I believe that we should have a voice in that change and not just blindly accept whatever is thrown at us in the name of change.
Perhaps I'm not quite as ready as you are to surrender to big business and industry and allow them to hire illegal aliens or import cheap labor. Perhaps I think people should be treated as people and not as a commodity. Perhaps I believe that there is honor in every occupation be it washing cars or working in a " high paid position."
A person who works in a high paying position gets no more respect from me than someone who washes cars. I wonder if you can say the same. Sometimes from the tone of some of your posts you come across as an elitist. I apologize sincerely if I'm reading that tone into your post were I shouldn't be.
FYI many people who aren't Mexican or Hispanic do very hard work in my area. Everything from working on our small rural farms and in coal mines to cleaning motel rooms and every job in between. In my area Caucasians even work at the car washes. lol Folks in my town no matter their ethnicity, don't seem to think they are to good to do Manuel labor. Whoda thunk. lol
I find it hard to believe when some people say there are jobs Americans will not do. I don't buy that for one minute. You're hungary you'll take whatever job you can get to feed yourself. lol People just want to be paid a fair wage for doing those jobs.
You say, and I have no reason to doubt you, that your area needs people to fill jobs no one else will take. My area doesn't need people to fill jobs no one else will take. That also must be taken into consideration when debating the illegal alien issue. You have to look beyond you own area and try to understand the concerns of the other parts of the country. I have nothing against a well run guest worker program that would benefit both the people from other countries needing work and the area of the USA that needs additional laborers. But to throw open our border so that business and industry in the USA can have a limitless supply of cheap labor, or to reward those who break our law by coming into the USA illegally with these special programs some cities want to enact, no that I can't agree with you on. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/30/2007 11:30:32 PM | sweetie ???? condescending.  actually was/is a sincere invitation--i've extended it to others and have met friends slowly from all over the world. even started fixing up a few. in fact, i made a similar invitation to you a while ago if i remember correctly , when i first started this thread. i think it's a lot easier talking to someone face to face. so things are clarified. especially, on such a serious topic. i have about an equal number of woman e-friends from pof as male e-friends, and i have a manfriend so don't get me wrong in any way.
yes, i know about hazelton. we had a similar misunderstanding way back in this thread. i lived in barto, even smaller near pennsburg and i liked it, but was one of the few "jews" and the hitler group in reading at that time was difficult to understand, but i survived. spoke to them also. i assume it's way different now, that was over 30 years ago. in fact, i even worked on a farm on the weekend shovelling chicken poop. grew four acres and donated most of the food with my first husband. not bad, being born and raised in brooklyn!
my point is, that the REALITY is that this area where i live now is SO different (from an east coast perspective). sure you get your vote. but i am trying to explain that others will not care the way you do, because their economic area is very different and the average person here will not do what a person will do in a small rural town. a lot of it is because of the silicon valley. just to give you an example, when we came here about 13 years ago, we almost had a heart attack that the houses which weren't even one fourth as as nice as PA, cost 3 times the price at the onset back then for half the size and hardly any property. we only could muster up five percent down for a tiny tract home that was duplicated everywheres. that home tripled in value in just five years. can you imagine such a thing?
i am trying to explain the differences in the economy not theoretically but picturesquely. real people. real emotions and thoughts on my part. i was the same when it came to hospital workers who worked their bones off on the night shift (mostly white) back east . only here it's a different group of people but also toiling away. i thought i could change things in my field when they started corporate redesigning. forget it. i walked out . wouldn't do it to people. could not stop it. had to rethink life and understand more. true feeling of powerlessness. i got to see the evil side of people that i never before that could have imagined. each one out for him/herself. whereas had they bonded together, i truly think they could have put a stop to the "top" . now that's MY opinion. i will never be able to prove myself right because it did not happen.
i am saying WHILE you fight for whatever you believe, understand how different areas all over the usa are from one another. totally different realities. when i came here, i could not believe my eyes. this is a different "country" in CA than the east coast. here, before my eyes, i see things getting way worse for the middle class american than better. i see an upper income group and a lower income group and a very shrinking middle group. i see my friends in their 50's with no savings and no disablity insurance and debt. what will happen when they cannot physically work?
so how do you prepare your kids for that? i try to get mine to know more about the world, than i would have 15 years ago. i try to get them to join forces and think out of the box. i just try to plant a seed for the one day they may need to think differently because something drastic may overturn their lives. being adopted as teens, believe me they've had enough "drastic".
i try to think logically, when i feel so strongly. pros and cons, what if's , different perspectives, my brain does not think the way others typically think ( it actually shows on an mri!). so, i try to weigh different forces. that's just how my minds works. i was a strategist in my professional life before the disabilty. some see what i write as condescending, some see it as fair, some love it, some hate it. it's who i am. except in real life i kid around a lot and i admit , i do curse here and there. so maybe that would give you a different impression. however, i don't have a condescending bone in my body. but i do have a lot of alpha dog when it comes to the kids around me.
it's just my thing. it doesn't have to be yours. but, by the way, when it came to my predictions that were poo poo'd where i worked in my prior career, many years have gone by and i still get apologies for minimizing what i saw. so maybe this time, i am wrong. but then again, maybe not. at any rate, i am glad that you are still feeling the power. i am not.
invitation still extended. again, was not kidding. | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/31/2007 1:31:12 AM | Serenity,
Sorry, I mistook your invitation to "show me around" to mean that people who live in small cities and towns don't understand the issues facing the nation and are fearful of change. Thanks for clarifying , glad we got that straightened out.
I agree totally with you that different areas of the country view things differently but I think the outcry to congress from the people in the USA sent a loud and clear message, the majority of Americans want illegal immigration stopped and they don't want amnesty for illegal aliens.
A friend of mine who use to live in Pa. moved to Cal. many years ago. I'm not even going to tell you what he said that parts of Cal. have turned into. Sufficient to say in his opinion it is due in large part to lax enforcement of our immigration laws.
Serenity I would like to know you thoughts on this. You speak of helping the illegal aliens, that the majority of them are poor, that we should have programs that teach English as a second language, and other programs gear to wards helping illegal aliens make a better life for themselves in the USA, that we should volunteer our time as mentors for immigrants, legal and illegal, you seem to have great compassion for the poor of other countries that come to America. But what of the Americans that are poor, that are living in poverty. There are millions of Americans that are living in poverty. I would much prefer my taxes go to programs that would improve education. and create programs for the for the poor Americans than spending millions of dollars teaching English as a second language, and the other government sponsored programs geared towards helping illegal aliens.
Oprah did a show a while back on the American poor it was heartbreaking the condition some of these people live in. Many with no plumbing in their homes which are little more than shacks. Before we worry about helping the poor from other countries let's help our own poor.
Please don't take my asking you those question in a negative way. I enjoy reading your posts, and getting a different viewpoint on the issues than my own. :) Even if it is a California viewpoint. lol (just teasing you) | |
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| Officially sanctioned witchhunt against illegal immigrants?
Posted: 7/31/2007 11:04:12 AM | SWEETIE:
i can only give you a 58 yr. old born in brooklyn viewpoint. i just don't distinguish legal or illegal. sure i prefer everything legal, but i've seen enough illegal in this country in just about everything lately. namely, people with money buying themselves or wheeling dealing themselves out of whatever trouble they may be caught at. where i live here, most of the kids who need tutoring are spanish speaking and the closest gangs are spanish speaking.
my kids born here, lived in the poorest section of peru and i can only tell you that very few stories can compare. they "happen" to be a mix of african american, british, spanish from spain and indigenous from peru. from me they know a lot of jewish jokes, their adoptive dad is from scotland. so, i put my life and soul into them and whoever else they bring my way. most of my little one's friends are "white". most of my elder two are lately african american. my eldest recently informed me she did not know she was part african american as they were raised hindu. she and her brother have explored the hard way. severe post trauma can be devastating, but we've come a long way and i see a future for them.... but it's going to be a long haul. so my energy goes first to them.
back east i tutored white and african american kids or shall i say mentored. my mentors were primarily african american and one famous white guy as i did graduate work at a business school that was originally primarily male and white. trust me, a lot changed that year! 
my sicilian neighbor was just here and talking about all this. she remembers a lot the same in newark, nj when she was a kid--first generation. we also remember the old gangs. i was beaten up by a gang for being jewish. it was an irish gang. it did not stop me from marrying an irish man (the first husband) and working with irish priests and nuns. back then when i was still in high school, i tutored three puerto rican kids because an irish catholic nun asked me to do so. i emphasize the gangs on this thread because i know they are formed and have power when the kids feel ostracized. they seem to be a major area of concern and i know there is only one way to assist the ones who are still children. i have a helper for my lymes who don't worry is legal and was born here. she says if her two teachers in high school did not stay with her after class and mentor her, she would have been in a gang. the literature shows the same.
my life was relatively sheltered until i got my kids. i had a big mouth and fought for ideas and values, but i was a real optimist. i've been "in the streets" with the kids here for the past 12 years. from sf down to where i live now. i hope to write a book about it. it is a NIGHTMARE. the kids who become homeless and roam the streets with crystal meth are all ethnicities and because it's warmer here to be homeless, they come from all over the usa. i am told by my old church in san jose where i used to attend that many mexicans who come here are indigenous or gay (as well as just regular ethnic mexicans) and they are discriminated against in their country severely. so this is a politcal /religious asylum for them. here, the homeless kids have many resources available, but until they choose to get clean and sober, not much can be done. many are post trauma kids. many of the poorer kids who are still living in family units can be helped more easily.
i just try to work with who i see as my 'Higher Power" putting in my path. now i do admit, as a jewish kid being raised in an irish and italian catholic neighborhood and my dad's best friend a monsigneour-- that i regularly nail myself to the cross. in fact, how many little russian jewish kids have you seen walking around talking to jesus? now for me, it's to jesus the man as i was raised that all religions were like languges and G-d was within all people. so that's my thing, i'm even eclectic about religion.
what can i say sweetie? i'm wierd or so i'm told i march to the tune of a different drummer in terms of what motivates me. but on the cognitive end, i have a whole lot of other skills. so whether they stop illegal immigration or not remains to be seen. in the meanwhile, if you don't want gangs and crime, you have to get the kids off the streets.
i have found it's easier to work with kids with well intentioned parents who are just poor or single parents and are exhausted working and have neither the time nor the ability to help their first generation children. others need to be fostered or adopted. that's a whole other story.
my grandmother spoke no english, my neighbors italian mom spoke a bit of each. her grandmother spoke no english and i can say that for many eastern europeans, asians, et al since i was born. i feel uncomfortable when someone in a store who is serving me starts speaking another language and laughing. so in my best sign language i explain i feel uncomfortable and ask what they are saying and are they laughing at me. i've always gotten my answer. made a lot of friends and learned some new words and vice versa. in a nail place, one woman later told me they were talking about a customer who was mean. so, i cope. this did not happen when i was in nj 13 years ago, but here it's common and i've gotten used to it.
my neigbhor tells me there is a big nyc conference for educators on the best practices to teach kids english. i know if you catch them very young, it's easy. but as they come here older, it's harder. they say here if you start with the first kid and then get a silbing and another sibling, by the time you get the third kid, they are all speaking english together. soooooooo, whatever you believe in just do it. it doesn't matter for who, what color, just do it. if you don't like kids, try a home cooked meal for an eldery homebound person. my kid came home and wants to do that now. our extended families are dissipating. our neighborhoods are dissipating. etc. etc. we are becoming very alienated. meanwhile , the rich are getting richer.
i felt very sad about your comment last nite. i've always felt you have a heart. words are very difficult on the internet with people you dont' know. i've made some friends from canada and australia and we are all looking into cheaper ways to talk by phone . similar things are going around all over our countries--despite what anyone boasts on the forums that one country is better than the other . via private email you learn a lot more about the truth from people.
hang in. glad you feel better. i feel better. you can ask me anything. remember, i'm from brooklyn! my mom said my first word was "why" and she was not kidding.  | |
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