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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/24/2007 10:43:55 PM | | Personally I think they are underpaid for the job they do. When there is a shooting somewhere and everyone is fleeing, these brave souls are running INTO the building. THAT takes a special type of person. Sure there are bad apples, but there are bad apples everyhere. I have no problem with them. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/28/2007 7:02:58 AM | Byrd,
Law enforcement officers don’t make the laws…they just enforce them. I suggest if you have an issue with city government you should address your complaint to them. Perhaps you should even take it a step further and help draft future legislation that will address your specific issue and get it on the ballot.
As far as bad cops vs. good cops they are no different than any other segment of society. There will always be a portion that doesn’t measure up. This occurs in every other profession including doctors, lawyers, politicians etc. You read and hear about these situations daily in the news.
Several people complaining in this thread have no doubt violated some law or infraction. Their brush with the law has been negative because they have been called to account for their actions. The only thing I can suggest to them is “If you can’t do the time…don’t do the crime”. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/28/2007 7:09:30 AM | Spoken like a LEO. Seeing as how your pic shows you as a cop what else would we expect you to say.
Simple fact of the matter is many posters have pointed out many cases in which they were not engaging in anything illegal.
Is this another case of us vs them mentality. All citizens are just lawbreakers that you haven't caught yet. That is the perception so many people are receiving. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/28/2007 7:58:23 AM | | I dont know why people hate cops...theyre not just doing their job, theyre protecting us....bad cops , I guess, is what we should be careful about...Here in Montreal they are very polite. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/28/2007 8:49:54 AM | Drq1301,
The simple fact is that neither you nor I know what may have transpired during their contact with Law Enforcement Officers. As we both know there are two sides to every story. I can not comment on the specifics regarding any statements from previous posters since I was not present or have first hand knowledge. There are probably situations where the Officer may have acted inappropriately and there are obviously some where the posters were in the wrong.
As you notice I’m speaking “generally” since I was not present and cannot defend the validity or claims of either party.
As you indicate and I quote, “All citizens are just lawbreakers that you haven't caught yet”. “All citizens” are not law breakers and therefore have nothing to fear from the law or the officers that enforce it.
Your perceptions are your interpretations to what you have read, sensed, believe or viewed. Your perceptions as well intentioned as you think they are may not be necessarily fact based. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/28/2007 1:56:20 PM |
"There are probably situations where the Officer may have acted inappropriately and there are obviously some where the posters were in the wrong."
what was Amadou Diallo guilty of? being black and on the street ?
(41 shots fired at him as an unarmed black man pulling his wallet out to show ID)..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo
also the case where 5 NYPD rammed a nightstick up the anus of a handcuffed man in custody..(5 on 1 therapy, oh so BRAVE..) | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/28/2007 2:52:13 PM | As I stated in my previous post and for your benefit…” I was not present and cannot defend the validity or claims of either party”.
I do not know what transpired (neither do you) in the Diallo case to prompt the officers to shoot forty one times. They obviously felt some type of threat and acted. Neither you nor anyone else (including me) can look into their minds and analyze what they were thinking at that precise moment. There are also many factors which play into this scenario such as where Mr. Diallo was standing, where the Officers where standing when contact was made, did he cooperate with commands, distance between Mr. Diallo and the officers, distance between each of the Officers, language etc. etc. The list is long.
If Mr. Diallo would have been in possession of a hand gun we would not be having this conversation. Since he did not have a weapon you are now engaging in your brand of Monday morning quarterbacking.
Lastly, never judge anyone until you can walk in their shoes. This applies to any profession such as Doctors, Lawyers, Military etc.
Incidentally while reading cases I came across this article which may interest you. I am merely attaching it for its educational value.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11045681/from/RS.3/
Monkey cops keep the peace among groups
When 'law enforcement' removed, monkey society becomes divisive.
New research reveals that monkey cops help keep social groups in line.
Not having guns or nightsticks, they leverage their group seniority, craft intimidating reputations and count on good voter turnout.
Take the primate police out of a group, as researchers did, and the rest get more violent and aggressive. Interaction between cliques drops significantly.
"It's not just that violence goes up, but a whole range of behavior involving a whole range of individuals suddenly disappears," said David Krakauer of the Santa Fe Institute. "It's like saying you take police out of human society, and all of a sudden people stop going to the opera, or something more important."
The study, detailed in today's issue of the journal Nature, also uncovered a complex monkey "voting" system for appointing the peacekeepers.
Peacekeepers 'appointed'
Pigtailed macaque monkeys, Macaca nemestrina, don't just pull into town like Wyatt Earp or Dirty Harry and take over. They have to be "appointed" to the position.
Instead of a paper ballot, inferior monkeys bare their teeth to a more dominant member of the group.
"It's like they're saying, ‘You don't have to beat me up to establish your dominance, I'm simply telling you that you are,'" Krakauer told LiveScience.
When an individual receives these voting signals from most of the group, it shows he is well respected — or feared — and he becomes the new sheriff in town.
In general, the larger and more senior monkeys are voted into the policing role.
But having a gang to back you up counts for something, too. A single Schwarzenegger-like monkey may not receive as many "votes" from the group as a smaller individual with several brothers.
On the job
Once elected, police monkeys earn certain rights and responsibilities, one of which is to peacefully settles conflicts. They usually do this by stepping between combatants or chasing bad monkeys away. Very rarely do they need to dish out a whooping, but their actions are always respected by the group.
When Krakauer and his colleagues removed the police force — which in this case consisted of three males, but can also include females — they saw a drastic change in a once peaceful, interactive society.
The creatures split into cliques, mostly based on tight family relationships or friendships, and then interacted about as well as high school jocks and band geeks.
"The policers are indirectly providing the security needed for complex forms of social interaction to take place," Krakauer said. "The monkeys are afraid of approaching each other if the policers are not there to resolve a potential conflict." | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/28/2007 3:22:37 PM |
Law enforcement officers don’t make the laws…they just enforce them
yes, EXCEPT when other cops are the law-breakers..the multiple cases of cops driving drunk and killing other people but evidence (blood test results, etc.) being "lost" at the local precinct, or the case dismissed because cops "forgot" (Or SAY in court that they forgot) to 'read him his rights', seems MUCH higher than just coincidental..
Yes of course Diallo 'deserved it', no doubt. I only regret that NYPD aren't armed with portable mini-guns so they could rip off 3,000 rounds as an "approriate response"
3,000 rounds of 7.62 FMJ rounds in less than a minute would teach those b**tards a lesson for sure!
at a minimum all cars should have flex-mounted MMG's; surplus M-60's maybe?
a couple of rocket launchers for good measure, and grenade launchers for when creeps get behind a garbage bin or something of that nature..
then they can testify (after being carefully coached by their lawyers): "I felt my life was in danger" : justifying any and all levels of response..
IT IS a bit scaryto me that they fired 41 shots and hit Diallo with 12, in densely populated NYC, meaning the other 29 shots went ...where?
also could pass through him and hit others anyway..seems to be reckless disregard in many cases..
I didn't think most would do it mainly/solely for the $ but that seems to be the argument here.. ? | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/28/2007 7:33:45 PM | "Phine Likker": So, you didn't think that being an officer of the law could possibly be money linked? Well, I don't know how anyone would expect to pay for their bills, if they didn't consider what ANY job pays first. Everyone wants to drive a decent car, live in a decent house, provide for their family. Do you think officers are different in that regard?? I have often wondered what exactly you do for a living. Would you have accepted your present occupation, if it didn't pay what you consider adequate pay for the job being done?
So, now you want to arm law enforcement to the teeth do ya?? Can't do it, just won't happen. See, no matter what a police officer receives for equipment, he must receive training for using it, even before it is put in his car, or wherever it will be used. So, if you put those M-60's on the fenders of the cruiser, with missile launchers, and maybe a nuclear weapon or two, all the department (yes, even the chief) would have to get the training first. So, if you have say. . . 30 officers on the department, then you have to pay a special instructor to train all those guys. Any idea how much that's gonna cost? Lots. Some instructors start at $200.00 to $300.00 per hour. And then you also have the cost of all that additional equipment. Additional cost of insurance to use the equipment. And the cost of the installation of the equipment. And there's also additional cost for training and overtime as well. So, sorry. . . . no MMG's, no mini guns, no grenage launchers, no M-60's, just too much.
I know that you were being facetious about NYPD having those weapons. But do ya know who will have some of those weapons? Gangs in the larger cities have weapons that make the officers weapon a joke. Another officer was shot and killed in Cleveland Ohio yesterday. The guy he was attempting to arrest was hiding in a closet. He went to arrest the guy for domestic violence. | |
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PHK
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Joined: 12/14/2006
Msg: 610 | |
| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/29/2007 9:53:13 AM |
How do you feel about Law Enforcement Officers as a whole? I don't share the hate. I have nothing but respect and honor for the men and women who provide a civil service at the risk their life and their family. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/29/2007 11:25:41 AM | What so many LEOs fail to realize is that it is not hate that most of us feel. Instead it is a lack of respect which for the most part has been earned.
Now I do understand how they would feel that way. After all to go from being a respected and admired profession to being one which has caused so many people to lose fatih in it has to be a major fall from grace.
Want to know the way to regain that respect as a profession?
Allow no more of the code of silence.
Allow no more you scratch my back I'll scratch yours mentality.
Allow no more corruption.
In other words do your jobs always. Even when it is another LEO who is the suspect.
Most organizations are harder on its own people for screwing up rather then looking the other way or even actively helping to cover it up, and that is what LEOs in the majority have been doing. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/29/2007 7:36:53 PM | "drg1301": Lets see now, you have studied the law enforcement career, and observed some of its people doing the job. And from your observations, you deduce that all officers are working under a "code of silence". Actually, its called the blue code, but why pick, right? You also prefer that all officers turn on each other for all the things they may do wrong, because you feel they do too much wrong, right? No more "scratch my back, I'll scratch yours?" Everyone, in every job occupation does the scratch your/my back thing. It evolves from people who work together, and become friends. The work is done together in a professional manner, and the boss is happy. It forms from one person, who for whatever reason, brings in some food for everyone in the business to enjoy. Perhaps you've never been in a situation where people all got along, and worked for one goal, and all together towards that goal.
Allow no more corruption. Can't and won't argue that point. Corruption is everywhere of course, from the police officer to the construction worker who knows the cement he is pouring for a house foundation is not of the proper mixture, but he ran out of the right ingredients, so. . . . he just pours away anyway, hoping it won't be noticed for a couple of years and he's long gone. And all the construction crew knows about the situation, but doesn't say anything to the home owners, or their boss (he probably knows too, 'cause he's busy cutting corners on the job in the first place). A few less nails here and there isn't gonna be missed, right? Not until the place falls down in a thunderstorm.
So, all the things you spoke of is gonna earn respect for all the officers in the country, perhaps the whole world, huh? No. You want officers telling on each other? Well they already do. And then they get interviewed by officers whose job it is to get them fired (called internal affairs). Bet you don't have co-workers like that in your occupation. Most officers do their jobs to the very best of their abilities. And just like any other job, there are some who don't. I don't suppose you know of someone who stands around watching everyone else at your place of employment, while everyone else busts their ass, do ya?? While he stands there holding up a shovel??? Well brother, if everyone in every job did their job to the very best of their abilities, then all would work out great. But this world doesn't work that way now does it? It all comes down to one thing. We're all human beings, some work hard, some don't. But for reasons only you know, you don't like police, and you think you know every thing there is to know about the job, yet you've never been a police officer. But you're more then ready to criticize and tell officers where they've gone wrong. You probably do the same to doctors, lawyers and anyone else you have some inferiority complex about. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/29/2007 7:41:49 PM | OK just keep making excuses. Because that is really all you managed to do with that post.
Meanwhile keep wondering why so many people hate ( disrespects ) cops.
If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. Your choice. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/30/2007 9:03:59 AM | But you're more then ready to criticize and tell officers where they've gone wrong. You probably do the same to doctors, lawyers and anyone else you have some inferiority complex ..
not really apples to apples though..those people don't have the job of arresting others for the very things that they can get way with doing themselves (or their 'bros') ..send people to jail for drugs,driving drunk, etc., when they and their bros are 'users' themselves, for example ?
also they generally don't carry lethal firepower on their hip(s), having the power of life & death over fellow citizens..
(effectively get to deal out a 'death sentence' even where death sentences are not allowed in the constitution..sometimes on the wrong person..)
can you understand at ALL why citizens would prefer that cops be held to a very high standard ?
also "some" (not all) cops get into it becasuse they like authority and being able to bully people legally..if you want to be a pr**k, don't be surprised that not everyone "loves you..
anyway I have to quit posting here, originally didn't mean to put down so much.
For those who say they respect cops for risking their lives, I hope you have at least as much respect for construction workers who risk their lives to give you places to live, or miners who risk their lives to get you needed minerals, firefighters, etc...soldiers.. because in North America those are actually RISKIER professions..but all you ever hear about is how we should all genuflect & kiss cop azz..
have nothing but respect and honor for the men and women who provide a civil service at the risk their life and their family.
in any event, everyone gets into their jobs knowing risk/return tradeoff, not sure we need to kizz butt there?
don't want to dwell here too much lest I be accused of being a 'cop-hater'? (To balance all the cop-lovers? ) but the question was asked.
Yes I know people do work for pay.. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/30/2007 2:11:27 PM | "Phine Likker": Well, I did manage to help you understand one thing about police officers, and whether or not the risk envolved is worth the pay. I've said it before, and will say it again. You clearly hate police, you just refuse to admit it. But with some help, you can do it!! YOU CAN DO IT!!! You've used just about every way to say you hate them, why not just admit it? Oh, and I freely admit that being a soldier in Irac is ten times more dangerous that being a police officer. Unless of course, the officer happens to work in a major city, where crime is totally out of control, where people like you, who often observe illegal activity, refuse to call police (they'd probably arrest you, right?). And I wonder why that would be? What is sooooo interesting to police, that they'd even bother talking to you, let alone, run your information on the computer to see what activity you've been up to? I know that I wouldn't have wasted my time on a person like yourself, unless I'd had previous contact with you (like an arrest), or knew some information about you that drew my interest.
And you've frequently mentioned that you think that officers want you to kiss their ass? You've said some nasty stuff, but I still don't want you or anyone else to kiss anyone's ass!
And I've gotta tell you, that there are lots and lots of people out there in the world who are pricks, and they don't wear a police uniform. See, you don't have to be a police officer to be an authority figure, and a prick. You can be a school guidance councilor, postman, baker, even a construction worker. . . . any job at all. It all boils down to personality, not the job. Oh ya, doctors have much more power of life and death then any police officer ever has had. A rather famous doctor (Kevorkian/Dr Death) gets out of jail soon. They don't carry a firearm, they carry pills. But in my previous post about them, I was referring to them as authority figure heads.
Police officers are held to a high standard. Admittedly, not all grasp that though. Just as, not all politicians do (like former President Clinton). You ask that police be perfect, 24/7. No one is perfect 24/7. Not you, not me, not anyone. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/30/2007 6:52:30 PM | | I know why I dislike them ...but I used to be married to one, and he was one of the few that was honest, loyal, a man of character, and he won every single case he ever made an arrest on. Then he started his own business..and was investigating a police chief and that police dept., which was in another state. He was found shot in the back of his head and that cop( who just happened to work part time at the police dept my husband was investigating, and very good friends with that chief) that worked my husband's death ruled it suicide in less than an hour. He took no blood samples, no dna, no fingerprints, no ballistics done on the gun...nothing. He gave me 2 different versions of how he was found and those 2 didn't add up to what the autopsy said..yet..nothing was done about it. There was no gun powder residue on my husband's hands, which meant he wasn't holding the gun. But...cops stick together..and I have tried my hardest to get an actual true investigation done..to NO avail...What that stupid detective said..sticks..I can't seem to get past the county it happened in...so yes...my thoughts of cops have changed dramatically. Yes...I'm sure there are a few good ones somewhere..but there is definately not one where I'm at..or the county that I'm having to deal with!!! | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/30/2007 6:56:33 PM | | I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that most smaller cities view their police force as a revue generator first and a law enforcement institution second. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/30/2007 10:07:59 PM | | "Knightless": I'm very sorry for your loss. I'm hoping you tried to have the local Sheriffs' office (in the state the death occured) do some kind of an investigation, if not, maybe hire a private investigator. I know that isn't cheap, and I understand the situation is bleak at best. If I could help you, I most certainly would. You should not be suffering like this, and I wish I could offer you some kind of comfort, by doing some investigating on my own for you. However, me being here, and you being there, isn't gonna make that possible. I hope that someother officer that may read this, that happens to live near you, will lend a hand to you. I also hope that you will remember that your husband was as good a man as he could be, and I am hopefull that he wouldn't want you to feel this way about all police, even though his death may have been caused by those you feel are responsible. I am truely sorry you lost your knight. Take care, D. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/30/2007 10:48:50 PM | | msg 602..I have no complaint with police officers on occasion though I observe things happening in my neighborhood, or read about police brutality in the paper usually the L.A. Times and I question the authority as in a thread I started in current events which seems to have landed my smart as* in sh*t alittle bit as I have offended some people..I really did not mean to but at the time these articles written in the paper are mean't to shock the regular joe reading them, they serve their purpose...As far as filing complaints aganist public officals..I almost did that once and the police officer and I became good friends a few years down the road, that would have been one hell of a mistake..I've thought about trying to change laws by going to the capital doing petitions but I am no politican..However I have broken the law in my life as for many years I was a drunk and I did some stupid things vandlism..Some things when I was a kid..But I'm proud to say I have no felonies and I've been sober a few years now. This thread is good seems to be some positive dialog going back and forth here. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/31/2007 12:09:21 AM | I think there is good and bad in every profession.
I think a lot of people hate cops because it goes hand in hand with those with extreme liberal views. And frankly, there are plenty of people with extreme liberal views in America right now.
I find that most of the extreme liberals are those who have never really traveled extensively around the world. The rest of the world outside the US can be downright brutal. People who think life in the US is bad are, IMHO, clueless. Yes it's not perfect but if you see how most of the rest of the world lives, it's a virtual paradise here.
No the police are not perfect. But if I remember correctly, 200 plus of them died on 9/11 trying to save other people. Would you have done that? Would I?
So I think people should take the good with the bad. Yes there is some bad and that's unfortunate, but there is also a lot of good. Those who don't see the good just don't WANT to see the good. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/31/2007 6:02:19 AM | | rtrdhrny; My husband died right outside of the town, and it was the County who worked the investigation. That detective also worked part-time for that town he was investigating, which is the same County. Yes, I have thought of a private investigator, however it takes everything I make to survive..that I can't afford to go that route. I have tried the new Sheriff after elections..but he's also part of that good ole boys club that was formerly in office. He's worthless and has no business being in office. The citizen's of that town worked hard and got a grand jury up..but the county attorney ( who is also a big part of that good ole boys club) hired the attorney overseeing the grand jury..which just happened to be a very good friend of his made certain that the mortician was never called, the 2 firemen at the scene were never served their subpoena's, and several other key people were never called to court as well...therefore, closed the grand jury with no actions. Have written to every one in my state seeking help..but everyone of them have told me I had to deal with the other state since that's where he died. I have gone to several other places...but...when they only review that one side..and never even talk to me, or find out why I'm asking questions.....whose side do you think they will side with?? I can tell you the answer on that one.... | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/31/2007 10:54:57 AM | | Oh it's not that we can't see the good as well. It is more that most of the good ones are unwilling to deal with the bad ones. Therefore the bad ones act for the most part with impunity. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/31/2007 11:07:16 AM | "Yes it's not perfect but if you see how most of the rest of the world lives, it's a virtual paradise here.
No the police are not perfect. But if I remember correctly, 200 plus of them died on 9/11 trying to save other people. Would you have done that? Would I? "
so the point is that if things are 'better' here than elsewhere, we should just 'accept' it, and not strive to make things 'better' ?
seems a bit of a crappy attitude.
" But if I remember correctly, 200 plus of them died on 9/11 trying to save other people"
IN fact, you remember incorrectly. there were not "200 plus" cop deaths on 9/11, there were 60 (23 NYPD, 37 Port Authority).
there WERE "over 200" firefighter deaths (343 FDNY deaths..)
pretty easy with Google to try to get your facts a little straighter. In any event, I don't know if they 'all' died 'trying to save other people' ; some could easily have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time, when the planes struck
Also, that is a bit irrelevant, it does not excuse the misbehavior of thousands of other cops.
I guess I must admit a bit of personal bias; I used to date a 25-year old trauma nurse at a major downtown Toronto hospital; she met lots of cops and got tired of all the married ones twice her age or more (up too 55) hitting on her, smug and cokky, almost disbelieving that she could turn down a 'man in blue' for a date..LOL ;)
shouldn't really let that bother me at all, I know, I'll "work on it! "
the 55-yearold wearing a wedding band who asked her out just laughed when she asked about the ring...
Anyway, I guess I can stop 'hating' all the retired ones.
I do see good as well, unfortunately the bad tend to cancel out the good; the 'blue code of silence' ensures that the bad never get weeded out.
I know that also happens with other professions such as doctors, judges & lawyers, etc. which is also very sad.. | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/31/2007 1:01:47 PM | "but can you really imagine our world without someone to protect it from those who don't or won't respect the rights of others? "
Indeed, but it is doubly bad when SOME of those supposedly given this task and the right to use deadly firepower , do not respect the rights of others, isn't it?
as you stated, cops are usually believed and have the right to investigate or not, so if they won't there isn't much alternative or relief available! they are often the last resort for vulnerable people but may not help much, esp. if 'fellow officers' were on the other side.
usually at least you can go to a "different" doctor or lawyer, etc. if you don't like the one you are dealing with.
Good luck trying that with cops if the one you are dealing with won't help you!
rtrdhrny, I don't hate you, man; you are retired anyway, right? | |
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| Why do so many people seem to hate cops?
Posted: 5/31/2007 2:49:08 PM | "Phine Likker": Well now, correct me if I'm wrong (cause I know you will anyway. . lolol), but didn't you say you were going to quit this thread??? Not that I want you to, not until you tell us all that you hate the police. . . . and maybe you've even provided some insight into why that is?? Cause some of those bad boys in blue hit on your lady? Gee, I don't know. . . . I'd have to say that's a very valid complaint even in my book!! lol I mean, I really hate it when I finally find a really sweet lady friend, and some bozzo comes along thinking he can move in on my lady!! Don't blame you one bit! Oh, and I felt it too man. . . . you quit hating the retired police. Now all still working officers can have something to look forward to. I can't tell ya brother, how much that means to me!
Also very glad you provided us with the exact number of officers, firemen and port authority personel that were killed in the 911 day. Does it really matter who they were, or what exactly they were doing there? I mean, so maybe they weren't all there to be help the public. I know that most of them that were there, were there to help to some degree, and ended up dieing. Would it be fair to say for instance, not to call every one of those men heros, because maybe one or two of them were doing something other then helping the people get out, but still ended up dieing?
Reference the misbehavior of thousands of other police. . . .I often think about that myself, believe it or not. Two Parma Ohio officers were just fired (mentioned this earlier) for having sex in their police car. Well, it now turns out they were fired, because one was raping a 23 year old woman, and the other knew about it, and was trying to cover it up. If they are convicted for these accusations (cause they haven't been in a court of law yet). If they are convicted, I would love to spend some time with them to first find out how this happened, why they did this, and to tell them just how wrong they were to do this. It really pisses me off that these two clowns were in uniform to begin with. How did they manage to pass the mental evalutions portion of their applications??? | |
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