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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 11/18/2006 11:52:28 PM | Poster above writes
Bottom line--a woman should chose how much or little clothing she wishes to wear in public
The issue is....women dont choose it. Their husbands MAKE them. Big difference. | |
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Sigi
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Joined: 5/26/2005
Msg: 27 | |
| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 11/19/2006 6:18:19 AM | Approximately 50 women in the Netherlands carry a burqa and it is a rare phenomenon. The major part of these women seldom comes outside the door (whether that's good or bad, is another discussion).
The discussion at the moment is: must the burqa be prohibited on the street, schools and in public spaces?
Other situations are being discussed as well: such as job interviews (if refusing to take of the burqa, the woman will loose her benefits) and safety reasons at certain moments and certain places.
The minister of integration can better aim her attention to the emancipation of these approximately 50 women (if these women want to) and their spouses instead of totally excluding this group of women from participating the Dutch society.
Dutchie Sigi | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 11/19/2006 7:20:47 AM |
The issue is....women dont choose it. Their husbands MAKE them. That's not true as in the case of the woman below ... her husband isn't even around ... he's "being held in connection with the Madrid bombings" ... and she still wears the burqa.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4616664.stm
In the city of Maaseik, in Belgium -
"There were six ladies who wore the niqab. I think two or three weeks after the council passed this law, five have dropped it," says Mr Creemers. "One lady is still wearing it but the last step in the procedure will be that she must go to jail."
The husband of the woman who defies the ban is being held in connection with the Madrid bombings.
Every muslim woman I know (and I know many) has told me that they make their own choices as to the type of clothing they wear in public in "Western countries". The men in their lives do express their opinions (just as men in our lives do) about their attire, but they ultimately make the choice to wear what they wear. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 11/19/2006 9:05:44 AM | Well BC Dream, then it would make more sense to crack down on men who abuse their wives then, now wouldn't it?
The Muslim women that I know are 'Westernized" and are pretty snazzy dressers. Yet, I understand that the women who are actively practising their religion and have traditional values, choose to wear their head dressings. For these women, whose's practise of wearing the head dressing pre-dates Western culture, it is the equivalent to exposing themselves in public. It is a decision based upon their beliefs about modesty and morality.
Another Western parallel would be the head dressings that Christian nuns wear. Is Holland to ban those too? Or is the line conveniently drawn a the face gauze that is only worn with a Muslim burqa?
Of course if a Muslim woman who is living in a Western country is being forced to wear a burqa against her will by her husband or community, it's a different issue. But it's not the same as forcing someone to undress in public with the agenda of making a political statement. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 11/19/2006 11:05:35 AM | I have no problem with traditional female Islamic dress, that I will support 100 percent. If you think about it, Islamic women who practice that aspect of their religion are dressing fairly closely to what women in the West wore up until the early Sixties. I see such women regularly, and they do look quite good. I have also seen a couple of women wearing burquas, and that still amazes me.
I can remember ( I am old enough) a time when women would rarely be seen without a scarf on their head. Remember Audrey Hepburn ? I'm also old enough to remember when the first miniskirts appeared. 
Although they were much longer than the "belts" worn today, they caused an outrage initially. If you think about it for a second, women very often today go out dressed in a manner that they would have thought unacceptable to do even in private, just fifty years ago.
The rest of the world hasn't changed, but we have, and quite a lot. What we Westerners accept in dress without a second thought would raise eyebrows in most non-Western countries.
All that said, the concept of a piece of clothing whose very intent is to shield the person wearing it totally from view goes against everything our societies in the West stand for. While it may be impossible in democratic societies to ban a piece of clothing, I don't think that placing limits on where they can be worn is in any way undemocratic.
If we are to change an entire society based on a tribal concept that an few dozen people choose to live by, then that opens the door to changing our society for other more accepted cultural/tribal differences. If this is accepted, why not then accept Muslim/Mormon men marrying multiple women, or African families carrying out female circumcision ?
After all, it is their way of life.
See the dilema ? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 11/19/2006 4:04:03 PM | All that said, the concept of a piece of clothing whose very intent is to shield the person wearing it totally from view goes against everything our societies in the West stand for.
Prove it. I guess I fail to see how banning burqas actually demonstrates democracy and how the fact that burqas are a tribal custom has any relevance.
I suppose under demoncratic practise then, we could then ban tube-tops for women who are under 110 lbs. Except on Tuesdays of course, but then, they can only wear them between the hours of 12:00 pm and 6:00 pm PST and only when worn accompanied by combat boots and a kilt, as long as the kilt is in tartan pattern only. Please.
Yes, if the majority of people in a democratic society have the power to ban burqas they have the legal power and process to do it. If this kind of legislation was ever tabled in my country, I would also have the right to disagree. For argument's sake, yes, you can compare an article of clothing to female (or male) circumcision or polygamy if you choose. If the majority is in favour of these practises under democracy, then so they shall be.
And then in theory, if enough people were in support, and if I held office, I could then move to pass a "he's staring at me funny" law that says that a man can be arrested for looking at me or any other women in such a way that moves me to wish I was wearing a burqa at that moment, so long as of course, I could prove that the illicit staring did occur. Hey! That sounds like a grand idea! Any supporters?
Or maybe the people who are so drastically effected by women wearing their burquas could maybe, umm, look in the other direction, much like I have to do when I'm offended by oogling? No, that wouldn't work though--the political statement would then be missed and Dutch men could not oogle all Muslim women as their rights and freedoms permit them to do. Horrors.
Actually, I would have to do some research into the constitution in the Netherlands to understand what fundamental rights and freedoms their citizens currently have. I can tell you right now, that in Canada, this law would be considered unconstitutional and would not pass.
And hypothetically then--let's say I'm going to travel to Holland next year, in October. October 31st to be exact. And let's say I decide to dress up as a ghost for Hallowe'en (dang pagan tradition anyway!...)...would I be arrested?
EDIT: I recognize that I'm giving some pretty ridiculous examples here, but they are only in the same spirit of the law that's being contemplated--ridiculous. | |
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Sigi
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Joined: 5/26/2005
Msg: 32 | |
| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 11/20/2006 1:57:06 PM |
And hypothetically then--let's say I'm going to travel to Holland next year, in October. October 31st to be exact. And let's say I decide to dress up as a ghost for Hallowe'en (dang pagan tradition anyway!...)...would I be arrested?
Halloween is an American tradition, not Dutch.
You could try with carnival though...February...(-; | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 11/21/2006 10:06:33 AM | I would not object to banning the burka .Ban hoodie wearers too and those exposing their bums with droopy jeans . | |
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~S~
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Joined: 10/12/2006
Msg: 34 | |
| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 11/22/2006 7:56:35 AM | Funny I should come upon this thread...
I just returned from Holland less than a week ago. I can’t really comment on the whole burqa issue because it hasn’t come to my attention until now.
All I can say is the security at Amsterdam Airport is unbelievable. The place is swarming with security guards. Maybe it was just me but I had this distinct feeling I was being watched. Can’t say I was strip searched going through customs but it was pretty darn close! From a hair clip to the buttons on my jeans, they were very thorough. Then searched a second time just to make sure they didn’t miss anything.
I remember thinking that if any of these dudes snapped their rubber glove and pulled out the dreaded anal probe; they would have to catch me because this girl will be running for the nearest door or window.
Anyone who is going through Dutch customs in a burqa, trench coat, or big baggy sweatshirt, guaranteed without a doubt, they will be taking it off.
~S~ | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/17/2007 6:45:19 AM | | On the streets of some towns in the UK, you do see people wearing the burqa. I don't like it. It feels a bit threatening somehow, when you can't see someones eyes. Also, very often it's more about people making a statement of separation rather than a genuine religious reason. And actually many older muslims don't like it either! It can only lead to more alienation. That said, an outright ban might have the opposite effect and cause more trouble than it's worth. Think about Prohibition. But it should certainly be banned in classrooms and places like airports. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/17/2007 7:22:31 AM | In some banks there are signs requesting people to remove hats and sunglasses. It would freak people out when someone is covered from head to toe, especially now that muslims are committing nearly all terrorist attacks.
If they ban these then they should ban speedos in public pools and beaches or spandex on the unfit.
It's not about looks, just public safety. Wearing speedos or spandex, it's not easy to hide a belt with massive amounts of explosives strapped on and walk into a crowd and kill and maim scores of people. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/17/2007 8:37:10 AM |
It's not about looks, just public safety. Wearing speedos or spandex, it's not easy to hide a belt with massive amounts of explosives strapped on and walk into a crowd and kill and maim scores of people.
Perhaps we should ban trenchcoats too then? Surely you can conceal explosives in the same way. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/17/2007 8:56:13 AM | Prove it. I guess I fail to see how banning burqas actually demonstrates democracy and how the fact that burqas are a tribal custom has any relevance.
Well, in my opinion, it's quite simple to explain . We do not let people walk around our cities with concealed faces, and we never have (except on Halloween). If we allow burquas, we wind up in a very difficult corner in regards to the rights of ther rest of society vs those of a very small subset of Muslims following a regional tribal custom.
Do we allow women to drive with them ? One woman in Florida already tried to get her driver's license picture taken while wearing one. When stopped by a police officer, especially a male one, how is identity proven ?
When students take exams at university, who proves that the person righting the exam is indeed the student ?
What about the health and safety issues of walking/driving around modern cities with only a small lace window to look through ? The restriction of vision is extensive, and even Muslim women have complained about it.
What about the problem of having no way of identifying someone committing a criminal act ? There are four women in burqas in a store, all the same size and weight, and a security camera films one shoplifting.
Which one do you search ? What about the rights of the three innocent women against such blanket searches ?
Walk into a bank, and pass a bad check or use a stolen credit card. Good luck running THAT security camera image to find a suspect.
All these things are just some the reasons burqas should be banned outside of the home of the wearer. In a democratic society, rights of the minority cannot override the rights of the majority. Your freedoms stop when they infringe upon mine, or other peoples.
The fact that it is tribal , and quite limited geographically, makes it easy to not permit. One can say it doesn't infringe on the rights of being a Muslim, as many Muslim countries do not require them. It's not a religious issue, at all.
The Netherlands did the right thing. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/17/2007 9:58:09 AM | I agree with montreal guy.
I don't see it as a religious thing, I see it as an integration thing. Yes, America (and now the west in general) is one massive melting pot. And I used to be proud of that. But now I'm starting to see some socico-political problems with it and this burka thing is one of them.
Sorry but I forgot the name of the post who married the German and had to change some of her habbits. I too would wear a swim suit for working outside (well, with shorts) and it would bite not being able to do that, but you suck it up. These people have mad a conscious move to a new country, with new laws and expectations. The entire county shouldn't have to step around them to risk offending anyone. I really hate that-its seen alot in the US with the different dialects that are being formed and the problems with testing in schools. Rather than fixing the cause, we adjust for the problems the cause creates. I have a serious issue with this.
I'm not saying the burkas are causing problems, I'm saying that they moved to a new country with new laws and expectations. They should integrate themselves, not expect the country to integrate itself for them.
Asmo | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/17/2007 12:36:15 PM |
We do not let people walk around our cities with concealed faces, and we never have (except on Halloween).
Actually we do.
Balaclavas are perfectly legal (even in hot weather though the police may tend to ask you some questions in that situation). Balaclavas and bandanas (over the face) are seen at protests frequently and no-one is charged for that (or even required to remove them in most instances).
There is no law that requires you to remove a full face helmet as soon as you get off your motorcycle.
As mentioned before, there is nothing wrong with the police expecting you to show your face for identification (when they have legal grounds to request it). At this point, if that is sufficient for things like balaclavas, bandanas and full face helmets it should be sufficient for burkhas.
What about the health and safety issues of walking/driving around modern cities with only a small lace window to look through ? The restriction of vision is extensive, and even Muslim women have complained about it.
By the same token we should ban wearing walkmen/ipods or using cell phones while walking (they are a source of accidents, from not hearing traffic to distraction in a more general sense). I can agree more in the case of driving (just like we do with cell phones in some places, though actually it should be all places) however, the downside of such a law is that most women who are so traditional that they were a burkha usually don't drive either (making it somewhat redundant).
In a democratic society, rights of the minority cannot override the rights of the majority. Your freedoms stop when they infringe upon mine, or other peoples.
I'm going to have to challenge you on that one to demonstrate how wearing a burkha is infringing on your (or my) rights to a degree that legally justifies banning them on that basis (I'm seeing this in something like a free expression vs. shouting fire/inciting violence vein but feel free to expand on that that if you wish). | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/17/2007 1:33:10 PM |
Balaclavas are perfectly legal (even in hot weather though the police may tend to ask you some questions in that situation). Balaclavas and bandanas (over the face) are seen at protests frequently and no-one is charged for that (or even required to remove them in most instances).
A balaclava allows you to see the face, at least partially. One sees the eyes and nose. That's enough to start to get an ID on someone, you can start to see if it's a male or female face. Burquas don't offer any of that. .
Don't get me started on demonstrators with covered faces.  In democratic societies one is given the right to protest peacefully - but not in disguise. That only allows thugs to mix in with legitimate protestors, and we've seen what happens at the G-8 summits when that happens.
For the same reason the burqua should be outlawed in public , those protestors should be arrested, charged, and fined.
Try walking into a bank with a full face motorcycle helmet, and a black out mask. Watch how long it will take until you are met by a security guard or bank employee asking you to remove it.
Try doing any transaction inside that bank while wearing it.
If we allow one segment of society to do this, then we must allow all others. That's the door that's being opened here. What's stopping people with criminal intentions from masking themselves, and allowing them perfect freedom in their anonymity ?
Again, this is not an Islamic requirement of faith, it's a tribal one.
The burqa was created by one of Afghanistan's rulers trying to stop anyone from seeing his wives' faces. He came up with the burqa which became a sign of an upper class citizen; however as times changed, the new government decided that burqas weren't modern enough and banned them. The upper class people then gave them to their servants. The burqas in those days were made out of silk and the mesh at the front was lace.
Before the Taliban took power in Afghanistan, the burqa was infrequently worn in cities. During the Taliban's reign, women were required to wear a burqa whenever they appeared in public. Officially, it is not required under the present Afghan regime, but local warlords still enforce it outside Kabul. Due to political instability in these areas, women who might not otherwise be inclined to wear the burqa must do so as matter of personal safety.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa
The great majority of women in Islamic countries do not wear them.
In one tradition, the Prophet Muhammad is quoted as saying: "...If the
woman reaches the age of puberty, no part of her body should be seen but
this --- and he pointed to his face and hands."
From these and other references, the vast majority of Muslim scholars
and jurists, past and present, have determined the minimum requirements
for Muslim women's dress: 1) Clothing must cover the entire body, with
the exception of the face and the hands. 2) The attire should not be
form fitting, sheer or so eye-catching as to attract undue attention or
reveal the shape of the body.
http://www.islam101.com/women/hijabfaq.html
"Uncovered face and hands....." from the mouth of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
I'll fight tooth and nail for a Muslims right to wear a hajib... I'll fight just as strongly against a regional dress that goes against not just Western society - but Islam itself. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/18/2007 7:06:52 PM | MontrealGuy--Could I get back to you in six months?!? 
Government identification and the freedom to choose what one wears in public are two separate issues. When people immigrate to this country, there are many hoops they have to jump through, including acquiring a social insurance number and picture ID.
If a Muslim woman who chooses to wear a burqa needs to reveal her face to officials for any reason, we have female officers in most positions now. A female officer can prove identity and a female designate can check students writing exams.
I think Mungojoe answered your other questions nicely so I won't elaborate on those.
Essentially, this policy is xenophobic, fear-based and gender discriminatory. With the percentage of Muslim women who actually wear burqas in public, the issue is immaterial. And the number of those who would actually commit petty theft would be a minuscule fraction.
Although I agree that you have a valid point about fundamentals trying to conceal explosives using burqas, this can be done by other means--what happened in Heathrow proves this. Do we start banning backpacks, trenchcoats and mu-mu's too?
I still hold strong that what Jack Straw did with that Muslim woman was demeaning and only done to make a power statement. It would be like telling a Western woman that he would not enter into a conversation with her unless she removed her shirt. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/19/2007 10:06:29 AM | I think Montreal Guy talks a lot of sense. But then he always does. Was listening to a radio interview on this subject the other day and MG's argument was more or less echoed by a muslim! If anyone wants to see 'burqas in action' I can show you a Yorkshire city where they are very much in evidence and where numbers are growing daily. It's socially divisive and it hampers communication - look at the recent case where a teacher wanted to wear one. Sorry, ridiculous. In places like airports, it's a security risk. It is not enough to say that a person might be asked to reveal their face on demand.
Neither is it required by the Koran, actually. But, like the bible, you can interpret some things to fit your own prejudices. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/19/2007 9:08:10 PM | Montreal Guy nails it again!!!
And...besides all the rest of the arguments...different countries all over the world have their own "dress code". Things that are OK here, as in Canada, miniskirts for example, are not ok there... wherever there might be, in that case....so fine...so be it...and...Holland or Canada or whomever, wherever, has the right to decide what is an acceptable dress code in their own country. End of story!
Anyone not liking the situation...is always free to leave! | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/19/2007 9:17:12 PM | MG is my good friend, ....and sometimes he's wrong.
Legislating culture/ethnicity/faith, ....is a big mistake, it's not only cruel, ......it lacks dignity.
It would never happen in Canada, ....our Charter protects the human beings here, regardless of "type".
To see this in the Netherlands?
...is a shock. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/20/2007 5:55:17 AM |
MG is my good friend, ....and sometimes he's wrong.
And good friends are never afraid to disagree. Through discussion comes understanding...if you leave yourself open to listening to each side.
Late, I wouldn't want it any other way bro. 
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/20/2007 6:17:28 AM | In my humble opinion its simple....right or wrong terrorism has changed the way we conduct ourselves.....we just can't take chances! When we were kids we didn't wear helmets when we rode our bikes or seat belts when we go in a car.....the world has changed FACT!
I have family in Holland...I wonder how they feel? My turn to calll anyway!
Once again another interesting post by Montreal Guy.....thanks! Enjoying the humidity! | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/20/2007 6:33:08 AM | @ late What about the part in the Charter on "Sexism". I feel as a woman that the burka is sexist, and downright oppressive. As such it offends me as a liberal feminist to see burka clad females.
The Charter is supposed to protect me from discrimmination based on gender.
(1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
While the above also protects ethnic and religious rights, the point below states:
26. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed as denying the existence of any other rights or freedoms that exist in Canada.
To me, the mere fact of wearing a burka is in itself like publishing hate material, hate toward my gender, and to a degree it is saying that men are but animals that can't control their drives and urges. Most feminist would agree that the first step toward gender equality is "normalizing" the female body. When women are hiding not only their body but their faces too, it sends the message that the the Australian Imam asserted in a now infamous speech about how rape is a woman's fault, "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52630 This idea is not isolated to this one Imam. Even the burka clad females will admit they cover themselves so that the men around them behave toward them in an appropriate manner. Simply put, the burka is an ugly reminder of a past not so long ago when women were blamed for whatever violent acts men CHOSE to inflict on them. So in then end, the West is supposed to tolerate this? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/20/2007 6:49:02 AM | I tend to agree with Montreal Guy. Keeping in mind that the majority of Muslims are liberal......the ones making the most trouble are the radical Muslims. If I were to live live in Yemen, Iran or Saudi Arabia for example I would have no choice but to adapt to the laws and culture of those countries.
I'll give you an example that really bugged me. I was talking to a nurse that works at a clinic. It's flu shot season so the CLSC is full, well they had to stop everything because this lady in a burka could not uncover herself in public to have her shot. Guess what they did it. And the radical Muslim wouldn't shake the hand of the President??? sorry but somethings very wrong here.
We are bending over backwards for a minority and they abuse the privilege. I'm a bit peeved because the majority of Muslims are not like that they adapt very well.
So if finally some are saying enough already you want to immigrate fine your welcome but adapt to the society you've decided to live in not the other way around.
I'm talking about any extremists of course. The right to religion or culture within the rules of the society you live in is a given to me.
I'm very liberal but arrogance gets to me. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/20/2007 7:05:31 AM |
I feel as a woman that the burka is sexist, and downright oppressive. As such it offends me as a liberal feminist to see burka clad females.
Arguing against it on that grounds is something I have great difficulty with. It's a type of argument, right or wrong, that will inevitably cause clashes with other ethnic groups.
The way I see it is the argument against it must be applied to all in society. If we allow this, then how will it affect all of the rest of society ?
If one simply says that even the Prophet himself had no problem with uncovered faces and hand on women - then there is no possible argument that the burqua is a religious item. As such , it's something that is not sheltered by religious rights and freedoms in this (or any) country.
Couple that argument with the safety concerns, for the women themselves and the public, and you start to have a cohesive logical rationale.
If a woman wearing a burqua wants to drive a car, what stops her ? If she wants her license picture taken wearing it, why not ? If she refuses to show her face to a male police officer, do we then have to wait an hour to get a female officer to drive over ?
If we allow them to do it, then thugs can show up at protests in full disguises. We've seen that , and what happens when people become anonymous.
Societies can implement rules on clothing, and we already do. Masked protesters can be arrested. If we start to allow exceptions, then we risk losing control. A masked protester can then argue that his rights are being discriminated against, if society allows others to walk the streets disguised.
Argued in that context, I think it's far less problematic and fairer to all . | |
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