| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 3:41:07 PM | ^^^
If you are fine with women being able to wear the burqa and Sikhs being able to wear their kirpan would you also agree that I, as a Scotsman, be allowed to walk around wearing a Sgian Dubh whenever I feel like it? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 3:49:48 PM | What recognized religion would you base this on?
If you could justify it, I would have no problem at all.
Like in the UK, under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (section 139)
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 4:06:21 PM |
What recognized religion would you base this on?
The Scottish Sgian Dubh is as religious as burqas. Which is to say, not at all. But it is a tribal/ethnic custom, like burqas.
Again, on what are you basing the claim that burqas are inherent to Islam? Because you have been shown evidence repeatedly that they are not. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 4:07:44 PM | Late said:
What recognized religion would you base this on?
If you could justify it, I would have no problem at all.
Like in the UK, under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (section 139)
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume.
It, much like the burqa, has nothing to do with religion. Rather, it is cultural and is part of a "national costume." | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 4:10:51 PM | Maybe you should read the whole post before letting your knee hit your chin, ...I don't have a problem with it. It can be shown that it's part of a recognized traditional dress, that there might be those who would co-opt this for illegal reasons, doesn't mean that legitimate users will.
I wouldn't have a problem with it. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 4:18:43 PM | Late said:
Maybe you should read the whole post before letting your knee hit your chin, ...I don't have a problem with it. It can be shown that it's part of a recognized traditional dress, that there might be those who would co-opt this for illegal reasons, doesn't mean that legitimate users will.
I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Then why did you question its relationship to religion in your previous post?
And why should it be worn only when part of a "national costume"? Could it not be worn by itself? There are many parts of highland dress that are worn without the full outfit (and that varies from century to century as well) so should I be allowed to wear this without the rest of the outfit? Sikhs can wear the Kirpan with normal western clothes if they choose so should I be allowed to do the same thing? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 4:42:19 PM | As long as it's justified as being a symbolic component of a religious or cultural "device", on its own. I have no problem with it at all. It only becomes a problem if it's something co-opted to commit a crime. Why should you be busted for not committing a crime?
Then why did you question its relationship to religion in your previous post?
Why not? Hasn't religion been a common aspect of the thread topic? | |
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Sigi
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Joined: 5/26/2005
Msg: 84 | |
| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 5:33:06 PM | There will be no burqa ban in the Netherlands.
DutchNews.nl
Saturday 03 March 2007
The new Dutch government does not plan to implement two parliamentary votes in favour of a ban on the burqa in public places, integration minister Ella Vogelaar told Radio 1 on Saturday. 'A ban is very complicated legally. And, above that, only around 150 women in this country wear one,' the minister said.
A general ban on burqas would be stigmatising and counter-productive, she said. The burqa itself had come to be a symbol of the fear of Islam, she added.
Vogelaar said she had been astonished by the commotion caused by her comments last week when she said a burqa was acceptable as street wear. 'There seems to be a feeling that I am a burqa fan,' she told Radio 1. 'That is absolutely not the case.'
A majority of MPs in the old parliament twice backed a motion calling for a ban on the face-covering garment. And after Vogelaar's comments last week, anti-immigration MP Geert Wilders said he planned to introduce his own legislative bill calling for a ban.
It is unclear if another motion for a ban would be passed given the new political make-up of parliament.
Current legislation already allowed burqas to be banned in some circumstances, such as in schools and on public transport, the minister pointed out. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 5:42:48 PM |
As long as it's justified as being a symbolic component of a religious or cultural "device", on its own. I have no problem with it at all. It only becomes a problem if it's something co-opted to commit a crime.
A clarification ?
How does this rule of thumb apply in the case of a Rastafarian ? Is he allowed to walk down the street smoking ganja ( a symbolic part of his culture/religion by their own admission) ?
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 18 which reads,
“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance”
allows the Rastafari Movement to interpret the Bible as they do and to use the herb cannabis sativa, accordingly. It is therefore a violation of internationally protected human rights to pass laws that prohibit this activity and it is a further violation of Internationally protected human rights to criminalize and incarcerate members of the Rastafari Movement for manifesting their beliefs under Article 18.
http://www.rastaites.com/repatriationnews/report3.htm
So, if I understand you correctly (and I may not be ), are you saying that a police officer standing on that street corner as the Rastafarian goes by does nothing....and then busts the next non-Rastafarian that walks by (smoking the same drug) ?
That's the area we are getting into here.
Rarely seen now outside of Afghanistan, Pakistan and northern India, the burka is the most concealing of all veils.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061006/
veils_headscarves_061006/20061006/
Today, the burqa still holds a degree of symbolism, though most Islamic scholars don't consider it mandatory. As Lila Abu-Lughod writes in a 2002 article in American Anthropologist, women who wear the burqa in Afghanistan are considered "good women" who stay inside the home. "It is for good respectable women from strong families who are not forced to make a living selling on the street," she writes
http://www.jucanada.org/library/liberating_veil.htm
I'll accept the same here, as they do there.
When Madihah Yarkhan, a 21-year-old psychology graduate from the University of Toronto, decided to cover her face in her last year of high school, her parents tried to talk her out of it. They worried that people would look at her differently.
She had been wearing a headscarf since she was young and wanted to take "that extra step."
Yarkhan agrees that it's not absolutely required, "but it's just something I wanted to do, that level I wanted to reach."
"Not absolutely required....."
But the veil came under attack during the colonial era, when "it was seen as a symbol of oppression and backwardness," Bullock explains.
In Iran, police chased women who wore the veil on the street, threatening to rip it off and cut it up. Similar campaigns went on in Turkey, Egypt and Nigeria.
- Ibid
So Muslim countries have gone even farther than the Netherlands banning it, that's on the record. No one's suggesting women be chased and their clothes ripped off, or cut off in this debate. If it were something that was of primary religious importance, it would have never been seen in that light in MUSLIM countries. 
A Muslim man who wants a divorce must follow Canadian laws, not Muslim ones. This again, isn't discrimination - it's common sense. We cannot have 50 different sets of laws based on who you are.
One prominent Kabul mullah, who asked to remain anonymous, agrees the Muslim faith does not prescribe the wearing of the burqa, saying the Taleban's actions in forcing women to wear the garment were actually against the laws of Islam. "Women are required to wear the hijab, which allows the face, hands, and feet to remain uncovered," he said. "Those who say that the burqa is part of Islamic law are mistaken."
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/newsitems/
news_item.2005-05-21.6131947427/view
A Mullah, IN AFGHANISTAN, says that the burqua is NOT a part of Islamic law. That's pretty much the epicenter of burka popularity.
Can it get any clearer ? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 6:56:18 PM | Late said:
It only becomes a problem if it's something co-opted to commit a crime.
Then you should have a problem with kirpans because they have been used to commit crimes...from assault up to murder. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 8:09:17 PM | | Why is there no debate about what type of clothing men wear? There are endless debates about whether women are wearing too few or too many clothes. The reactionary response to the burka is another example of people's resistance to "otherness". I really do not care whether it is a religious, tribal, or ethnic custom. What people wear is their own darn business and is often culturally significant. There is no good reason to pass a law against another's apparel. Professionals such as judges and school personnel should be more enlightened. They probably attended universities that espoused the value of diversity but have forgotten the impetus for such. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 9:02:00 PM | | I think I'm going to start my own religion. Just claim that God or some other force spoke to me and told me that clothing was sinful: a new first commandment, "thou shalt not cover thy ass nor thy spouse' s ass" So this religion would require that its followers be naked at all times weather premitting. When it's winter, they can travel to work dressed warmly, but once at the office, their clothes have to come off. Yup, sounds like a plan.... the Charter would protect us, and the RCMP would hire us.... Right? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 9:39:57 PM | | In response to Montreal Man........ Sir: Fair is fair--- If the cops have an issue with covered faces during civil demenstrations or any gov mandated edict, then 'law enforcement ' should not be afforded the C.S. veiled/covered face either----- after all, they're legitimate...... aren't they?.....face your accuser? or are theyjust revenue confiscating thugs [at times] who share the bounty with the municipality and participating agencies who at times, have a worse track record for accuracy than do the lesser numerical terror activities involved with the burqa issue--at least in the states!!! Also all this discussion about "democracy" is no more than two wolves and a sheep deceiding what to have for supper!!!!!!..... there will always be an outvoted minority in a democracy. Obviously, we don't use our republic in the states anymore .... the last half dozen presidents think we are a democracy, as stated. Yes Canada/Europe are different but I'm tired of hearing the 'democracy' mantra.....thanks, I feel better now!!! | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/21/2007 9:53:16 PM |
If the cops have an issue with covered faces during civil demenstrations or any gov mandated edict, then 'law enforcement ' should not be afforded the C.S. veiled/covered face either-
The police are wearing those things because some loony tune demonstrators don't think twice about "protesting" with bricks, rocks, and Molotov****ails. As such, the police have the right to protect themselves (but also have to wear some sort of ID that is visible.) Montreal police ( in the good old days ) used to remove their badges before "wailing" on protesters
That's illegal.
Even they are not allowed to be anonymous in public. That's done to keep them honest, in the same way I'm arguing for any citizen. An anonymous policeman is potentially as dangerous....  | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/22/2007 1:46:02 AM | I'm a pretty libertarian guy. And I mean pretty -- a girl on the street whistled at *me* today!  There's no way I'd support a restriction on clothing like this. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/22/2007 2:37:01 AM | well if you outlaw burkhas, then why not orthodox jewish garb and the almost burkha look of the traditional nun's habit? i do think that ID's for driving, etc. are in keeping with an acceptable law and accomodations would have to be made for women with burkhas taking tests at university--eg. perhaps supervised w/o the burkha by other women. accomodations are made for orthodox jewish women in hospitals who cannot have a male ob and for people with learning disablitites in colleges.
if however, there is wife abuse or a country does not allow more than one spouse, that too must be respected in that shelter must be available for the woman who chooses it, no matter what the culture. also there is the issue of clitorectomies and female genitalia abuse that occurs in many cultures besides the one we are discussing here. you have to draw the line, but in so doing make sure what you propose is equitable. otherwise you may have to start wearing "uniforms".
i might add that the reverse will occur when you visit other countries and not every woman who wears a burkha is an abused woman,while many who dress more provacatively in our country are abused! also many are quite decorated underneath, but that is only reserved for family and women friends to see. over time, my guess there will be changes, but i am not sure it is equitable to force and enforce change. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/22/2007 4:25:51 AM | @ 94...
I wouldn't worry about that.......lol
A white guy living in my neighbourhood is married to an Islamic middle eastern woman who wears the long skirts and headscarf .I noticed this on my jogging round the streets .I am always having to stop myself from running up to them and asking.................how..........what.............when.............?
Only thing stopping me is maybe the thought of a bop in the face for being no nosey.
I have noticed this on occasion in the media where say its a human interest story and you see the white guy sat there with say a totally covered woman from the that religion.Which is nice,I hasten to add. I am just a curious guy . And usually its the younger guys.under 40 but mainly 20- 35 . So saying my mother-in- law to be, if you like is Malaysian muslim and the father in law is white English.No she doesn't wear either scarf or burka but keeps covered up . | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/22/2007 6:54:16 AM | | @95 we're talking face covering... what you gave as examples are all religious attire that don't require the face covering... | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/24/2007 12:51:45 PM | | I'm wondering how many folks here would fly on the same aircraft with a group of burqa clad women who've been allowed to pass through airport security without having to lift their veils to confirm their identities because the law says it is a violation of their rights? | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/24/2007 1:51:57 PM | Message 84: Yipeee for the Dutchies!  I whip my bra off and wave as a flag for Holland!
Honestly, I'm still trying to visualize a Muslim woman in a full Burqa trying to inconspicuously skulk around in Walmart and lifting her skirt to stash boxes of Ding Dongs in her garter belt....hmmm...it's just not working for me.... | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/24/2007 2:25:43 PM |
I'm wondering how many folks here would fly on the same aircraft with a group of burqa clad women who've been allowed to pass through airport security without having to lift their veils to confirm their identities because the law says it is a violation of their rights?
This wouldn't bother me at all for a few reasons
1) I agree with John Gilmore that people should be allowed to travel inside the US without presenting ID. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilmore_v._Gonzales
2) Having a valid ID doesn't mean squat as far as real security goes. No doubt Timothy McVeigh had a valid ID when he rented the truck used in Oklahoma City. The 9/11 guys had ID too.
3) When I was a teenager, I had a fake ID to buy beer and get into bars. I'll bet to this day that ID would even fool you. :)
4) If a couple dozen terrorists tried to hijack a plane in the US again, I think all the other passengers would know what it means and would beat the terrorists to death. This has actually happened since 9/11 - some guy acting threatening on a plane got beaten to death. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/24/2007 2:50:16 PM | serenitycw said:
well if you outlaw burkhas, then why not orthodox jewish garb and the almost burkha look of the traditional nun's habit?
Because none of these completely obscure the face to prevent identification.
i might add that the reverse will occur when you visit other countries and not every woman who wears a burkha is an abused woman . . .
An argument could be made that being forced to wear the burqa is an act of abuse in, and of, itself. | |
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| Netherlands to propose burqa ban
Posted: 6/24/2007 3:51:14 PM |
Because none of these completely obscure the face to prevent identification.
Wow....does the government have a legit need to be able to identify every person wandering around in public? That prospect scares the hell out of me.
What about motorcycle helmets? Halloween costumes?
An argument could be made that being forced to wear the burqa is an act of abuse in, and of, itself.
This is true, and also true of every other religious clothing requirement, from Pentecostal women not getting haircuts to the downright silly (IMHO) clothing rules of the Amish. But you can't look at any of these and decide that the particular wearer did it because of force, or because they are proud to wear what they wear to show their faith. So I say, no bans on clothing. | |
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