online dating service
REGISTER | MAIL/PROFILE | HELP | NOW ONLINE | SEARCH | RATING | FORUMS | SUCCESS STORIES

 

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest 100% free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Breastfeeding on a plane.      Mod Threads Home login  
Page 19 of 21 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21
 Author Thread: Breastfeeding on a plane.
 downforit2007

Joined: 12/12/2006
Msg: 451
view profile
History
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/24/2006 9:46:09 PM
Oh, wow, a woman gets kicked off a plane for breastfeeding her kid in public, so all the women in here UNITE to complain about it!

First of all, the kid was 2 years old. 2 year olds are already walking and talking in their development for one. My mom stopped breastfeeding me when I was six months old and switched me to bottles full-time. The mother who thinks that her 2 year old kid needs breastfeeding instead of having a damn bottle for once is just plain stupid and ignorant. Now the kid is gonna grow up kissing her ass and being a mama's boy.

And he'll still probably be sucking on her tit when he's ten or eleven, who knows?

I for one, would not want to have someone whip out her tit in front of me and show it off to the public. I would probably lose my appetite. Yes, I understand a woman's right to breastfeed her kid, but one who should've been on bottles a long time ago? I don't get it! My mom would always take me to a private place, like a bathroom for instance. They got those on planes too! So the woman should never be showing off like, 'LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!' My mother never did that. The woman might as well just strip naked and try rubbing her vagina in someone's face, but all you girls would probably defend her right to do so because of her INNER beauty or something like that, freedom of expression.

This woman would be a good candidate for exposing herself at the next Democratic Party Convention!
 chinua

Joined: 9/30/2005
Msg: 452
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/24/2006 10:12:41 PM
now thats an ignorant post..................even those of us that disagreed on this thread( and some women did disgree with each other) will probably agree on that. Maybe it'll finally be an end to the thread- finally!!
 tokr

Joined: 9/2/2006
Msg: 453
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/28/2006 9:06:07 PM
As a mother who has breastfed both of her children, I say that it is a natural thing to do; however, I have never once breastfed in public without covering with a blanket and/or going to the restroom to feed my children. Why did I do that? Because it can make people uncomfortable when you are exposed while feeding your child. In my opinion, I do not think it is a big deal to throw a blanket over your shoulder while you are feeding your infant. Some mothers will say that then you cannot see your infant while he/she is feeding. If you hold the blanket just right, and it is much easier if you have an extra set of hands, you can see your baby and look at your baby while not making everyone around you uncomfortable. Just my 2 cents.

As for those who say that you can see breasts all over the TV; so, what is the big deal? The big deal is that you can turn the TV station or turn the TV off. You do not always have the option of walking away, but modesty should come into play also as well as common courtesy.

Diana
 tokr

Joined: 9/2/2006
Msg: 454
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/28/2006 9:12:26 PM
chinua: While I agree that some of what downforit said is ignorant, I will agree with him on a couple of points.

1. A 22-month-old child should not still be breastfeeding. He/she should be drinking from a cup, not a breast.

2. All she was asked to do was to cover herself with a blanket as she was making others uncomfortable. I honestly do not see anything wrong with asking her to please cover up. She says that her breast was not visible. As a mother who breastfed her baby, your breast is definitely exposed when you are feeding your child. I think it would have just been easier to put the blanket over her shoulder.

3. I have to agree that modesty should account for something. If she did not want to use the blanket, she could very easily have gone into the restroom to feed the child and not have to use a blanket.

It is every single woman's right to breastfeed or not to breastfeed. It is not, however, a woman's right to make others uncomfortable because she lacks modesty.

Just my 2 cents.
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 455
view profile
History
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 6:52:25 AM
@ msg. 451, 454, & 455 ...
Some apparently did not read very much into the thread before making a comment.

It was well-established that the mother was not "exposed" at all, was not being blatant in her activities at all, and most of all, it has been established that the airlines has admitted that the flight attendant was wrong in her actions. She has been appropriately reprimanded.


All she was asked to do was to cover herself with a blanket as she was making others uncomfortable.
Actually, she was not making others uncomfortable ... there were no complaints ... just that of the prudish flight attendant shortly before take off.


I think it would have just been easier to put the blanket over her shoulder.
Again, nothing was exposed, the mother simply wanted to breast feed the child during take off and landing. Anyone who has done any amount of flying will know how important that is to the child. All flights I was ever on with my babies while I was still breastfeeding (and there were many), encouraged it.


... she could very easily have gone into the restroom to feed the child and not have to use a blanket.
No she couldn't ... no one is allowed in the bathrooms on planes during take off and landing.


It is not, however, a woman's right to make others uncomfortable because she lacks modesty.
It was well-established that the woman was being very discreet ... she was not being blatant about it in any way.
 Interdimensional

Joined: 12/19/2006
Msg: 456
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 7:11:54 AM
Having come back to this thread a few times...i have decided that our attitude towards the human body and its functions, sexual and otherwise are completely insane. People she be able to walk around naked if the temperature permits and what the heck is more natural than a baby feeding at its mothers breast....GeeeeeeeeeeZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!
 tokr

Joined: 9/2/2006
Msg: 457
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 10:53:45 AM
cotter: Apparently, we are not reading the same report. There is absolutely no mention of the flight attendant being reprimanded. You also avoided one crucial point in all of this. This was not an infant. This was a 22-month-old child. At that age, breastfeeding should have been stopped quite some time ago. I believe the average that doctors tell mothers anymore is to stop between 6 and 9 months of age. That is quite a far cry from 22 months.

Also, as I said, I was a breastfeeding mom. No matter how discrete you attempt to be, your breast is exposed when the baby is feeding. This is probably even more true in this case as this is not a tiny infant. It is her right to breastfeed; however, I stick by me previous statement that it is not okay for her to make others uncomfortable.
 theadra

Joined: 5/8/2006
Msg: 458
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 12:58:12 PM

No matter how discrete you attempt to be, your breast is exposed when the baby is feeding.

Then you must be one of those moms that opens up her entire blouse or pulls up a teeshirt and no nursing bra. I assure you no part of my breast showed given that I wore a nursing bra and a jacket.


It is her right to breastfeed; however, I stick by me previous statement that it is not okay for her to make others uncomfortable.

Unless some pervert was able to stand directly behind her seat peering down at her it would be impossible with her seating arrangement for anyone to have seen her or even known what she was doing except for a flight attendant who is obviously hungry for power. Most of us here know what small minds can do when given an opportunity to exercise power/control.

No one could have been "uncomfortable" in this situation; picture it, woman in window seat, husband next to her, no one can walk or pass in front of or behind her. What's there to see? It was an unjustifiable abuse of authority by the flight attendant. Authority she should not be entitled to. Hope this airline reviews its policies as the thought that a flight attendant should have this much power is frightening.
 tokr

Joined: 9/2/2006
Msg: 459
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 1:13:02 PM
Theadra: I never said that I agreed with her being removed from the plane. I do think that was a gross abuse of power by the flight attendant.

And, no, I was not one of those mothers who did not wear a nursing bra and I never wore anything if it did not have buttons so that I could unbutton it just far enough to feed my baby. As I said previously, I threw a blanket over my shoulder when feeding the baby.
 Babylonia

Joined: 1/27/2005
Msg: 460
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 1:18:40 PM

This was not an infant. This was a 22-month-old child. At that age, breastfeeding should have been stopped quite some time ago. I believe the average that doctors tell mothers anymore is to stop between 6 and 9 months of age. That is quite a far cry from 22 months.


Extended breastfeeding is not a rare phenomenon, nor is it recommended that it is stopped at 6-8 months. It is stated that 6-8 months is the age where BF may be reduced because the child is receiving nutrients from solids, therefore is provided with adequate iron sources that the child would normally receive in the breast milk.

Extended breastfeeding
Some mothers and babies enjoy breastfeeding so much they are in no hurry to stop. Family members and friends may feel uncomfortable about it, but don’t give in to pressure if you and your child are happy.

It is not unusual for children up to four years to continue to be breastfed. The World Health Organisation recommends breastfeeding children up to the age of two years.

If your child’s only means of relaxation is to breastfeed, it may be useful to help them learn other ways to soothe themselves.


http://betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Breastfeeding_deciding_when_to_stop?OpenDocument

Extended Breastfeeding Fact Sheet:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/bfextended/ebf-benefits.html

Further information from a leading world expert on Breastfeeding:


Letter for Court Cases
(in support of extended breastfeeding)
by Katherine A. Dettwyler, Ph.D.

Department of Anthropology,
Texas A&M University and
Department of Sociology/Anthropology,
Millersville University, Pennsylvania




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Prepared by Kathy Dettwyler, 3-27-2005. Can be downloaded and sent to lawyers, judges, social workers, ex-spouses, pediatricians, family physicians, etc. If you would like a copy signed by the author, send her an email at kadettwyler@hotmail.com

DATE: March 2005

TO: Whom It May Concern

FROM: Katherine A. Dettwyler, Ph.D., Adjunct Associate Professor of Anthropology Texas A&M University, Visiting Professor of Anthropology, Millersville University, Kadettwyler@hotmail.com

RE: "Extended" Breastfeeding

I am a biocultural anthropologist who has conducted research, since 1981, on cross-cultural beliefs and practices concerning infant/child feeding, growth and health, as well as the evolutionary underpinnings of human feeding practices. I am the acknowledged world expert on extended breastfeeding and weaning from both evolutionary and cross-cultural perspectives.

My research concludes that the normal and natural duration of breastfeeding for modern humans falls between 2.5 years and 7 years. Some children nurse less than 2.5 years, and some nurse longer than 7 years. It is quite common for children in many cultures around the world to be breastfed for 3-4-5-6-7 years, including quite a few in the U.S. (see below). My research on the age ranges for natural weaning has been published in a peer-reviewed scholarly book, and in the medical journal Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology (2004), and I have presented my research at many scientific meetings and conferences to audiences of anthropologists, doctors, nurses, lactation consultants, and other health care professionals.

In addition, my research has been used to counter charges of child abuse and "inappropriate parenting behaviors" in many court cases, especially involving divorce and custody disputes, where fathers may accuse the mother of "inappropriate parenting by virtue of extended breastfeeding" as a strategy to gain custody of children, or may simply claim that 'continued breastfeeding' is not relevant to shared custody arrangements.

At this point (2005), all of the research that has been conducted on the health and cognitive consequences of different lengths of breastfeeding shows steadily increasing benefits the longer a child is breastfed up to the age of 2 years, and no negative consequences. No research has been conducted on the physical, emotional, or psychological health of children breastfed longer than 2 years. Thus, while there is no research-based proof that breastfeeding a child for 3 years provides statistically significant health or cognitive benefits compared to breastfeeding a child for only two years, there is no research to show that breastfeeding a child for 3 years (or 4-5-6-7-8-9 years) causes any sort of physical, psychological or emotional harm to the child. This has recently been confirmed in the 2005 American Academy of Pediatrics "Recommendations for breastfeeding the healthy term infant" (see below).

Breastfeeding a child beyond the age of three years is not common in the United States , but it is not unknown. It is more common than most people realize because families that practice extended breastfeeding often do not tell others, who they fear will be judgmental. A breastfeeding child of 3 or 4 years or older will typically only be nursing a few times a day - usually first thing in the morning, before nap and bedtime at night, perhaps more often if they are sick, injured, frightened, emotionally distressed or developmentally delayed. It is quite easy for even close friends of the family to be unaware of a continuing breastfeeding relationship. A pediatrician who is vocal in his non-support of breastfeeding may not even be told if a mother in his practice continues to breastfeed. Thus, "extended" breastfeeding - beyond three years - seems more rare and unusual in the United States than it really is.

It is quite feasible for divorced parents to work out shared custody or visitation arrangements that allow the father to have ample time with his child while not sacrificing the breastfeeding relationship the child has with its mother. There is no reason why the child cannot have close relationships with both parents, including spending substantial amounts of time with both, without weaning having to take place before the child is ready.

Breastfeeding and co-sleeping with children are perfectly normal and healthy behaviors, practiced by many people in cultures all around the world, and in the US .

In conclusion, there is no research to support a claim that breastfeeding a child at any age is in any way harmful to a child . On the contrary, my research suggests that the best outcomes, in terms of health, cognitive, and emotional development, are the result of children being allowed to breastfeed as long as they need/want to. Around the world, most children self-wean between the ages of 3 and 5 years, but given that the underlying physiological norm is to breastfeed up to 6-7 years, it is quite normal for children to continue to breastfeed to this age as well, and the occasional "normally" developing child will nurse even longer. Children who nurse for more than a year or two tend to regard their mother's breasts as sources of love and nurturance and comfort, and are more or less immune to the broader society's attempts to culturally define breasts as sex objects.

I will be happy to provide more information and input on this subject if needed. You can contact me at (302) 738-5631 or (302) 388-7836/cell or by email to: kadettwyler@hotmail.com. More information can be found on my web site at: http://www.kathydettwyler.org

In any specific court case, there will be many factors to which outside observers are not privy, and many different perspectives that must be brought to bear in deciding what is in a child's best interests. As a general rule, the child who is allowed to breastfeed as long as they need is the lucky child, one who has a mother who deeply cares for and respects her child. In the absence of neglectful or abusive circumstances, a child and mother should never be punished or criticized for breastfeeding longer than the cultural norms, and a child should not have to lose the breastfeeding relationship with its mother just so the father can have the child for overnight or weekend visits.



Expert Recommendations on Duration of Breastfeeding

What do pediatric nutrition experts at the national (United States) and international levels recommend concerning how long children should be breastfed?

World Health Organization: "two years of age or beyond"

http://www.who.int/nut/documents/gs_infant_feeding_text_eng.pdf )

Promoting appropriate feeding for infants and young children

10. Breastfeeding is an unequalled way of providing ideal food for the healthy growth and development of infants; it is also an integral part of the reproductive process with important implications for the health of mothers. As a global public health recommendation, infants should be exclusively breastfed for the first six months of life to achieve optimal growth, development and health. Thereafter, to meet their evolving nutritional requirements, infants should receive nutritionally adequate and safe complementary foods while breastfeeding continues for up to two years of age or beyond . Exclusive breastfeeding from birth is possible except for a few medical conditions, and unrestricted exclusive breastfeeding results in ample milk production.

American Academy of Pediatrics, Policy Statement, Breastfeeding and the Use of Human Milk, PEDIATRICS Vol. 115 No. 2 February 2005, pp. 496-506, http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/115/2/496 :

Recommendations on Breastfeeding for Healthy Term Infants (#1-9 and 11-15 removed)

10. Pediatricians and parents should be aware that exclusive breastfeeding is sufficient to support optimal growth and development for approximately the first 6 months of life and provides continuing protection against diarrhea and respiratory tract infection. 30 , 34 , 128 , 178 - 184 Breastfeeding should be continued for at least the first year of life and beyond for as long as mutually desired by mother and child . 185

Complementary foods rich in iron should be introduced gradually beginning around 6 months of age. 186 - 187 Preterm and low birth weight infants and infants with hematologic disorders or infants who had inadequate iron stores at birth generally require iron supplementation before 6 months of age. 148 , 188 - 192 Iron may be administered while continuing exclusive breastfeeding.

Unique needs or feeding behaviors of individual infants may indicate a need for introduction of complementary foods as early as 4 months of age, whereas other infants may not be ready to accept other foods until approximately 8 months of age. 193

Introduction of complementary feedings before 6 months of age generally does not increase total caloric intake or rate of growth and only substitutes foods that lack the protective components of human milk. 194

During the first 6 months of age, even in hot climates, water and juice are unnecessary for breastfed infants and may introduce contaminants or allergens. 195

Increased duration of breastfeeding confers significant health and developmental benefits for the child and the mother, especially in delaying return of fertility (thereby promoting optimal intervals between births). 196

There is no upper limit to the duration of breastfeeding and no evidence of psychologic or developmental harm from breastfeeding into the third year of life or longer. 197

Infants weaned before 12 months of age should not receive cow's milk but should receive iron-fortified infant formula. 198

American Academy of Family Physicians: " Breastfeeding beyond the first year offers considerable benefits to both mother and child, and should continue as long as mutually desired. . . If the child is younger than two years of age, the child is at increased risk of illness if weaned."

http://www.aafp.org/x6633.xml

AAFP Policy Statement on Breastfeeding

Breastfeeding is the physiological norm for both mothers and their children. The AAFP recommends that all babies, with rare exceptions, be breastfed and/or receive expressed human milk exclusively for about the first six months of life. Breastfeeding should continue with the addition of complementary foods throughout the second half of the first year. Breastfeeding beyond the first year offers considerable benefits to both mother and child, and should continue as long as mutually desired. Family physicians should have the knowledge to promote, protect, and support breastfeeding. (1989) (2001)

AAFP, Specific section on nursing the older child:

Nursing Beyond Infancy

Breastfeeding should ideally continue beyond infancy, but this is currently not the cultural norm and requires ongoing support and encouragement.85 Breastfeeding during a subsequent pregnancy is not unusual. If the pregnancy is normal and the mother is healthy, breastfeeding during pregnancy is the woman's personal decision. If the child is younger than two years of age, the child is at increased risk of illness if weaned. Breastfeeding the nursing child after delivery of the next child (tandem nursing) may help to provide a smooth transition psychologically for the older child.61

References cited

61. Lawrence RA, Lawrence RM. Breastfeeding: a guide for the medical professional. 5th ed. St. Louis : Mosby, 1999.

85. Powers NG, Slusser W. Breastfeeding update 2: clinical lactation management. Pediatr Rev 1997;18(5):147-161.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Extended Breastfeeding Survey" --

A survey of "extended breastfeeding" - beyond three years - was conducted by Katherine A. Dettwyler, Ph.D., Adjunct Associate Professor of Anthropology, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX 77843-4352. The data summarized below come from the United States , and most were collected between December of 1996 and March of 1998. Most of the respondents were middle- and upper-class, well-educated, and of European ancestry. These data have been published in "When to Wean: Biological Versus Cultural Perspectives," in the medical journal Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology , Volume 47, Number 3, pp. 712-723. In addition, I have reported on them at a number of professional conferences.

In brief, during the late 1990s, I surveyed 1,280 children in the US who breastfed for a minimum of three years. The mean age of weaning for these children was 4.24. years, with a median of 4.00 years, a mode of 3.5 years, a standard deviation of 1.08 years, and a range of 3.00 to 9.17 years . The half-yearly break down of ages at weaning was:

3-3.49 years 297 children

3.5-3.99 yrs 286 children

4.00-4.49 yrs 213 children

4.50-4.99 yrs 162 children

5.00-5.49 yrs 154 children

5.50-5.99 yrs 58 children

6.00-6.49 yrs 50 children

6.50-6.99 yrs 17 children

7.00-7.49 yrs 22 children

7.50-7.99 yrs 7 children

8.00-8.49 yrs 7 children

8.50-8.99 yrs 2 children

9.00-9.49 yrs 5 children

To quote from the Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology article: "The demographic characteristics of the sample indicate that in the United States, extended breastfeeding is most often found among middle-class and upper-class women, women who work outside the home, and women who are highly educated. . . Areas of the country with relatively large groups of mothers and children nursing beyond 3 years of age included Seattle , Washington ; Salt Lake City , Utah ; College Station , Texas ; and Wilmington , Delaware ."



Selected References

Dettwyler, K.A. 2004 When to Wean: Biological Versus Cultural Perspectives, Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology , 47(3):712-723.

Dettwyler, K.A. 2001 Weaning. Breastfeeding Annual 2001 . Washington DC : Platypus Media.

Dettwyler, K.A. 2001 Believing in Breastfeeding. ORGYN , XII(2):42-45.

Dettwyler, K.A. 1999 Evolutionary Medicine and Breastfeeding: Implications for Research and Pediatric Advice. The 1998-99 David Skomp Distinguished Lecture in Anthropology , Department of Anthropology, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN, 47405.

Dettwyler, K.A. 1995 A Time to Wean: The Hominid Blueprint for the Natural Age of Weaning In Modern Human Populations. In Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives , edited by Patricia Stuart-Macadam and Katherine A. Dettwyler, pp. 39-73. New York : Aldine de Gruyter.

Dettwyler, K.A. 1995 Beauty and the Breast: The Cultural Context of Breastfeeding in the United States . In Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives , edited by Patricia Stuart-Macadam and Katherine A. Dettwyler, pp. 167-215. New York : Aldine de Gruyter.


http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detletter.htm

In the end, BF duration is a personal and parenting choice, not one to be tampered with by public sensitivities. There is nothing perverse or unnatural about extended breastfeeding in modern humans. The perversion lies in the Western Society's objectification of the breast.
 luclora

Joined: 12/23/2006
Msg: 461
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 1:31:03 PM
not everybody wants to look at the extreamly obease squished into there seat with there fat overflowing into the next passengers seat either,or the gross guy wit bad BO would they they offer him a shower,or the fat lady a hidden seat in cargo?NO. Well you see all kinds of things in public,it is so natural feeding her baby,I flew on west jet and breast fed my baby with no looks and questions asked,I guess I just had a good crew.

And I am sure just because some one on the plane has terrible eating manners they flight attendant would not ask him/her do you mind if we cover you up with a blanket you are offending the other passangers?

this is almost 2007 people get with it!!!!!!!!
 frank257

Joined: 9/12/2005
Msg: 462
view profile
History
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 1:34:02 PM
Fieryredhead,I agree with you 100%......breast feeding is not a problem for me in public.But she should've "covered up",just in case........!!!
I think,it's all about "give and take"........like everything else in life !!!

The Blues Man
 tokr

Joined: 9/2/2006
Msg: 463
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 2:48:47 PM
frank257: I couldn't agree with you more. You definitely said it better than I did. Like everything else in life, there has to be a compromise. I don't care if this woman was not offending anyone except the flight attendant. That is not the point. The point is that the flight attendant was offended. So, for all of you that say that this woman was not offending anyone, she most certainly offended the flight attendant. None of us will know that as we were not on that plane, but who is to say that other people on the plane that were further back would not have been offended by her breastfeeding as well?

Babylonia: You found something that says to breastfeed your child until he/she is 2.5 years old. I bet I could find several articles that say that you should stop breastfeeding by no later than 1 year of age. We could squish the other's articles all night and all day. I have a nephew who was breast fed until he was 5 or 6 months old. At 8 months of age, he was drinking from a cup. He is now 20 months old, and I could not imagine him still breastfeeding. He is a toddler, not an infant.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 464
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 4:04:00 PM
rank257: I couldn't agree with you more. You definitely said it better than I did. Like everything else in life, there has to be a compromise. I don't care if this woman was not offending anyone except the flight attendant. That is not the point. The point is that the flight attendant was offended.


And according to the laws of Vermont, and the policies of her employer the attendant is the one who acted inappropriately. The excuse offered by the airline is that the attendant was young and inexperienced.


So, for all of you that say that this woman was not offending anyone, she most certainly offended the flight attendant. None of us will know that as we were not on that plane, but who is to say that other people on the plane that were further back would not have been offended by her breastfeeding as well?


The airline in question was using a Dash 8 on that flight, if you've ever flown in one, you'd understand that this argument doesn't hold water.

Further:

The airline itself has stated that; "after an investigation", the family's version of the story is factual, and that the attendant was in the wrong.

The only thing exposed was the nursing child.


Babylonia: You found something that says to breastfeed your child until he/she is 2.5 years old. I bet I could find several articles that say that you should stop breastfeeding by no later than 1 year of age.


You could also find articles that say that the British royal family are alien reptilian shape-shifters.


We could squish the other's articles all night and all day.


Non-sequitur, this would be assuming that the articles are "equal" in validity, this is easily resolved by considering sources.


I have a nephew who was breast fed until he was 5 or 6 months old. At 8 months of age, he was drinking from a cup. He is now 20 months old, and I could not imagine him still breastfeeding. He is a toddler, not an infant.


The average age of weaning on the planet is around 5 years old. You are assuming a moral high-ground backed by a sense of sexualizing breast-feeding maybe?
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 465
view profile
History
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 5:37:42 PM

I have a nephew who was breast fed until he was 5 or 6 months old. At 8 months of age, he was drinking from a cup.
Regardless how any child ceases breastfeeding, there are children who do breast feed for extended lengths of time and many mothers/parents prefer that method for their children. They should be allowed to practice that in a public place as long as they are being discreet and the law allows for it.

There is documentation that the woman in question was being discreet. There was no need for a blanket to "cover up" something that was not showing. And she should never have had to leave the aircraft because of it.
 tokr

Joined: 9/2/2006
Msg: 466
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 5:39:24 PM
late: You are reaching here. How in the world did you get that I am sexualizing breastfeeding in any of my comments? I believe earlier other people had said something about sexualizing breastfeeding. Let me make myself perfectly clear. I breastfed my babies. Breastfeeding, in my opinion, is the best thing for a baby for several reasons. One of those reasons would be that a mother will bond more with her baby if she breastfeeds the baby. This, however, sucks for the husband. It is the most natural thing in the world to breastfeed. My sister has 3 children. She only breastfed her last baby. The other 2 were bottlefed from birth. She told me that she wished she would have breastfed them all. First, she does have a stronger bond with Aydenn than she does with the other 2. Plus, she couldn't believe how much easier it is. When the baby wakes up and is screaming because he/she is hungry, she didn't have to juggle the baby around while she made formula at 3 o'clock in the morning. I only breastfed my children for an average of 3 months, not by my choice. My oldest had a urinary tract infection with a very high fever. The doctors did not know originally what was wrong with him as it took them 2 weeks to check his urine. Regardless, they thought it was an intolerance to my breast milk. I stopped breastfeeding and by the time they figured out what really was wrong, I no longer was producing milk. My youngest child was also not breastfed past 3 months, also not by my choice. He did have an intolerance to my breast milk as well as almost every other form of milk, formula or otherwise. He couldn't even tolerate goat's milk. I had to have him on a very specialized formula. I would not have breastfed them longer than 1 year of age even if I could have. Children need to grow. How can they grow and become independent if they are still "connected" to mommy's breast? Nowhere in my comments did I say anything of a sexual nature. I do not consider it a sexual thing for a woman to breastfeed past 1 year of age; I just think that maybe the mom is trying to keep her child an infant far longer than he/she should be.

As to the validity of the studies, I am quite sure that I could find many articles that say that breastfeeding past 1 year of age is inappropriate. I believe also that I read an article somewhere that said that babies who were breastfed past 1 year of age were generally smaller than those who went to whole milk at 1 year of age.

I agree that any report written does need to have some factual information from a trustworthy individual(s).

As for the plane using a Dash 8, I have no clue what that is. I hate flying. The few times I have flown, I couldn't tell you anything about the plane other than it was big and the airline name. I always fly Continental. I never claimed to know everything about this particular airplane.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 467
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 6:40:58 PM
As to the validity of the studies, I am quite sure that I could find many articles that say that breastfeeding past 1 year of age is inappropriate. I believe also that I read an article somewhere that said that babies who were breastfed past 1 year of age were generally smaller than those who went to whole milk at 1 year of age.


Then please provide a cite for it, one with the gravitas of the World Health Organization, or American Academy of Family Physicians, or in the very least a peer-reviewed medical journal.

My daughter nursed for 18 months, is the tallest of all her peers, very healthy, smart - speaks and writes in two languages, and is ahead of the curve developementally at the age of 8 in all ways.

She nursed at 16 mo, on a Boeing 737 for take-offs/landings, no breast showing, no crying due to ear ache, no blanket, no complaints.

I never claimed to know everything about this particular airplane.


The claim you made was:

"None of us will know that as we were not on that plane, but who is to say that other people on the plane that were further back would not have been offended by her breastfeeding as well?"

What any of us "know" is entirely dependant on checking the facts.

Freedom Airlines use Dash 8 aircraft on their flights out of the New York hub, I know because I checked. This is a very small 37 passanger commuter airliner, it's not even a jet. I've flown on this type, the seating for the attendant is at the front, the family was in the second to last row. The attendant went out of her way to go to the back of the plane, away from the crew seating at the front, to tell the mother "you're offending me".

http://www.airinuit.com/img/Dash8cabin003-8-150.jpg

Freedom Airlines confirmed the story as told by the family, I know this because I checked, the airline released a statement saying so.

Freedom Airlines also released this statement:


Freedom Airlines issued a written statement asserting that they “firmly support a mother’s right to breastfeed a child” and they “do not expect (and will not in the future request) that nursingmothers use a blanket to cover their child while nursing.” The airline has disciplined the flight attendant; a spokesman, contacted by NEWSWEEK, did not dispute the Gillette family’s version of the events.


Just the facts...
 Babylonia

Joined: 1/27/2005
Msg: 468
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/29/2006 9:25:53 PM
Babylonia: You found something that says to breastfeed your child until he/she is 2.5 years old. I bet I could find several articles that say that you should stop breastfeeding by no later than 1 year of age.


I bet you could as well, however they wouldn't be from the world's leading experts on human health and breastfeeding, though.


We could squish the other's articles all night and all day.


Instead of threats to undermine the expert testimony from the WHO and others as somehow refuting my post, please cite other world organizations who say breastfeeding past 6-8 months is inappropriate. I would be very interested to see their reports.


I have a nephew who was breast fed until he was 5 or 6 months old. At 8 months of age, he was drinking from a cup. He is now 20 months old, and I could not imagine him still breastfeeding. He is a toddler, not an infant.


So? You cite a personal parenting decision, and an anecdotal story which does nothing to refute the articles cited. I will not be determining my child's nutritional needs on the basis of your nephew's eating habits, nor does the WHO make concessions for others' perverse sensitivities on the proper function and use of mammaries. The facts: human breast milk is given to the majority of children up until the age of 4 years old in the modern world. North America and the UK Commonwealth are the only places in which this is considered improper. We are not the world, and breastfeeding a toddler up until the age of 2 to 2.5 years is NOT abnormal or unnatural. Western beliefs on the subject are abnormal and unnatural.
 Jenny M

Joined: 11/30/2006
Msg: 469
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/30/2006 5:07:23 PM
Tokr, I agree with you. I breasfed all 4 of my boys for a year each. They are very healthy (all over 6ft tall today). They went for a short time to a bottle then to a cup (whole milk, per Dr. order). I also would fill up 6 bottles of milk every morning for the La Leche league, a woman would pick them up and take them to mothers who were unable to breastfeed their babies. While in the hospital, after having my children, I would fill up bottles and the nurse would freeze them in the nursery fridge, for if there was a time that feeding wasn't possible for me. So, obviously, I have been there, done that.

The WHO organization basis their stats on women, who we have to remember that a certain (maybe a large) amount are in 'developing countries' all over the world. And yes, I have traveled into the Amazon's and seen children 2 and 3 years old breastfeeding. In non-developed countries, they may not have the luxury of bottling thier breastmilk, refridgerating or freezing it and I imagine they don't have the 'complimentary supplements' to provide their children after 2 years of age (which by the way, the WHO recommends doing). However, in a developed country, we have those things. And along with that, we have a lot of other things in place that are different from developing countries (think about it).

Yes, we know what the paper has reported happened on the plane, as it keeps getting posted here over and over and over and.... Since when has the media ever been a reliable source of information and since when have they ever told the entire truth or both sides of the story? I say don't believe everything you read!

For example: as far as how much of the breast was exposed, I am sorry, but you can't poke a nipple out of a tiny hole for your baby and smoosh it's face onto your shirt or bra. You have to expose the breast to some extent to feed. Most of the time, the breast needs stroking to make the milk drop down (something you guys might not know). I keep reading that 'none of the breast was exposed' 'only the child'. Who saw that none of the breast was exposed? Who's statement is that exactly? Maybe someone did complain to the stewardess? Well known fact is that big company's don't need bad PR, so easier to say "huh? what? Oh that bad stewardess! She is just young and stupid and we would never condon anything like that!" Remember, they have to protect their reputation first and foremost and say whatever it takes to not offend the public.

My opinion is: I think the woman should of covered up, used discretion and been courteous to other people, whether someone could see her breast or not. (At least that is what some women in the developed parts of the world believe.) It would not of hurt her or her child to do so.

And yes, I think breastfeeding should be allowed on a plane. I also think a 2 year old is old enough to not have to breastfeed on the plane. Give him a pacifier to suck on if his ears are bothered by takeoff, etc..

Yes, the whole thing is a bit crazy, but I don't think we have the full story, only what we have been breastfed through the media.
 montiouch

Joined: 10/11/2006
Msg: 470
view profile
History
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/30/2006 5:28:24 PM
What is it whit this Western part of the world where a Woman's Breast is taboo? I really don't have a problem with a Woman Breast-feeding her child.....ANY PLACE.
i HAVE TO AGREE WITHSOME OF THE OTHER POSTERS' that if she was not blatant about it, then so-be-it. Let the "little one" get his/her drink on.
 late™

Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 471
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/30/2006 6:10:48 PM
Since when has the media ever been a reliable source of information and since when have they ever told the entire truth or both sides of the story? I say don't believe everything you read!


I don't believe everything I read, I dig deeper.

Some are basing this on absolutely no information save their own prejudice, and/or laziness to do anything more than peruse news articles.

Some will dig deeper, the facts are the facts.


I am sorry, but you can't poke a nipple out of a tiny hole for your baby and smoosh it's face onto your shirt or bra. You have to expose the breast to some extent to feed. Most of the time, the breast needs stroking to make the milk drop down (something you guys might not know).


Sorry, my ex could nurse our daughter without exposing her nipple or breast, without a blanket. In a window seat on a much more spacious airliner, ...even less to see. A blanket over her face would have caused her anxiety, as she would not be able to make eye contact with her mother.


Maybe someone did complain to the stewardess?


Nope, do more research.

And this is moot, the attendant acted contrary to both the airline's policies and in violation of the Vermont Fair Housing and Accommodations Act


Well known fact is that big company's don't need bad PR, so easier to say "huh? what? Oh that bad stewardess! She is just young and stupid and we would never condon anything like that!" Remember, they have to protect their reputation first and foremost and say whatever it takes to not offend the public.


Nope, the airline backed the attendant until after an investigation, do your research.


I also think a 2 year old is old enough to not have to breastfeed on the plane.


So what?

Nobody is forcing you to, or kicking you off a plane if you don't. What you think is appropriate is subjective and absolutely immaterial, it wasn't your child - fact.
 leanhaunshee

Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 472
view profile
History
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/30/2006 9:13:43 PM
it's been while since i've popped in here, but thought i'd put in my two euro-cents in on this topic...

i haven't read all the posts, but enough to get the story and quite a few opinions... one which sticks in my mind from the first page has a line that says 'i'll bet it wasn't a european plane'... yeah, you can probably bet your life savings on that one! LOL

i was born and bred in ny but have lived in spain for 19 years; my son, born here, is 18 now and i can't even count the times i've sat on the main square in our in a breast-feeding coffee-klatch. Nobody complains, nobody cares, most people smile when they see a woman breast-feeding, blanket over the shoulder or not... and geez you have to switch midway through a feeding and get the kid on target, you can't always think about who's watching and what they're thinking no matter what you're doing when it's with a small child.

i have a friend here (at least one) who breastfed her son until he was nearly four... a lot of women used to do this as they though it would prevent them from getting pregnant (not that my friend did for these reasons, we now know this is not a good method of birth control) and it was more economical, especially in large families. anyway... he'd be out there on the plaza playing with his friends and then would come running up to the table for a bit o' milk. not my personal choice, but it didn't bother me or any of the rest of us at the table, the conversation didn't stop for this. well, he's 17 now, one of my son's best friends and isn't weird or damaged or anything as a result of this. i only nursed my son for 7 months because he weaned himself, else i would have gone on for as long as i had good milk, but probably not to far into the teething age.

as long as the mother is healthy, it's better to nurse a child for as long as possible, there's no strict moral rule on this, it's a cultural preference most often, but for the first 6 months babies need their mothers' antibodies as they have not a fully developed immune system until at least that age, and for up to two years isn't all that unacceptable, it's still healthy as long as the milk is nutritious. i think a clue to stop might be when it becomes watery and more clear showing a lack of nutrients.... or if the mom wants to be able to go out and have a few beers from time to time. ;)

in most of europe, topless bathing is the norm and there are plenty of 'naturalist' beaches where bathing attire isn't a requirment, it's a choice. i live on one such beach... not an 'adult' beach, (i will never understand that term), i've seen whole families playing paddle ball in the nude under the summer sun while working on my own no-lines tan... this is a beautiful place with clean, clear sea water, sand, rocks and dunes and forest behind and it is a liberating feeling to be out in nature in and feel such a part of it.

my son grew up here... when i took him to new york, we went to the museum of natural history in a big family group, he was 6 at the time. his two older cousins came upon a showcase of tribal people with only loincloths on and all three boys starting laughing, the older ones at seeing boobs... my son at the bone through the woman's nose... he's seen boobs on the beach his whole life... live ones... and it's just not a 'thing'.

i won't argue about whether or not the woman on the plane was justified... i think everyone can probably guess what my stance is on that anyway... i just feel it's a moot point. the issue here seems to be a much deeper one about society; repression, taboos, shame, embarrassment and their byproducts. I've noticed that the more puritanical outlooks regarding the human body and sexuality are attached to the english language (except maybe for south africans, but they're really dutch anyway) as are the higher rates of sex-crimes.

when people become overly offended by something like breast-feeding there would seem to be a problem in that society, but that's just my opinion. so much better if such things are seen as normal and natural... one less thing to freak out about in this crazy world.

just an aside...
amina leal would have been stoned to death if not for being allowed to live until her child was weaned at the age of 4, the norm in her part of the world, allowing enough time for organisations such as amnesty international to put on the pressure and stop her from being executed for adultery.

and so... to those i know here, nice to see you again, to those i don't, nice to meet you, and to everyone....

Have a Great New Year!
bru
 Jenny M

Joined: 11/30/2006
Msg: 473
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/30/2006 10:05:41 PM
Ok, back at you, heed your own words: What you think is appropriate is subjective and absolutely immaterial, it wasn't your child - fact.

I never said it was my child -fact, and I think what anyone's 'opinion' on here happens to be subjective -fact. And, I think all 'opinions' on here are absolutely immaterial - fact. However, I am speaking from a woman's point of view and one who has breastfed multiple times. Doesn't make me an expert, but it sure gives me a great perspective on the subject.

I know this woman at work that doesn't have children, but she has become the expert on telling everone else how to raise their children, what is appropriate and what is not (because of what she has read, not on her experience). No one can figure out how she thinks she knows so much?

Just a thought.
 mungojoe

Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 474
view profile
History
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/30/2006 10:33:45 PM

I know this woman at work that doesn't have children, but she has become the expert on telling everone else how to raise their children, what is appropriate and what is not (because of what she has read, not on her experience). No one can figure out how she thinks she knows so much?

Just a thought.

So let's substitute "this woman at work" for "this flight attendant" and throw in "your offending me" and where are we?

Seems to me that her opinions on breastfeeding were thought (by her) to be more important than the child.

Just a thought.
 Jenny M

Joined: 11/30/2006
Msg: 475
Breastfeeding on a plane.
Posted: 12/30/2006 10:46:28 PM
That's one way to look at it, and good point. But my point was made in regards to people who read something and they are suddenly an expert on the subject. Experience accounts for a lot in life.
I am not sure that the attendant is pushing her issue based on something she read. I am not sure that she thought the child was unimportant either. I am referring to those in this forum who tell others their opinions are subjective....opinions have always been subjective that I have known of and of course this is immaterial because our discussion doesn't change anything.

Another way to look at it:
One of my coworkers went and complained on another coworker because she was chewing gum. It didn't bother anyone else but this one person. Guess what? The boss made her stop the gum chewing.

Read sexual harrassment laws in the workplace...another good example....if it bothers even one person (subjective opinion, perceived harrassment, etc), guess what? It is deemed inappropriate and has to stop or else. Sad, but true.

I never said I agree with the attendant, I said it was crazy stuff, but we don't have the full story. There is always more than one side to things, maybe many.
Page 19 of 21 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21
 
Show ALL Forums  > Current Events  > Breastfeeding on a plane.