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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 11:59:20 AM | I agree with the person who posted the link to the Nook board. I used to go on there because my grandmother has many of the symptoms of BPD, and in fact I first heard of it when one of my friends told me to watch "Girl, Interrupted" and she said that my grandmother acted like Lisa (Angelina Jolie's character.) I have also read Stop Walking on Eggshells, Lost in the Mirror, and some of "Understanding the Borderline Mother."
I am not sure why someone disagreed with the fact that a person with BPD can't have a stable relationship. One of the main criteria for the disorder is unstable, rocky relationships. You even admitted that you had mood swings for no reason so therefore that is not stable. It is very difficult to be in a relationship with someone who loves you one minute and hates you the next, and yells at you for no reason and things like that.
loyalty to a fault
I agree with this, because I have had some friends with BPD and when I first met them I thought they were the nicest people I had ever met and they would say such sweet things to me. But then they would turn against me and say things like they hated me, that I made them want to kill themselves, that they hoped I would burn in hell and things like that. They would get mad at me if I didn't answer the phone and they would just keep calling and calling. I had one friend who even ditched me after 3 years because she thought she was pregnant, and her parents blamed ME (so by some scientific miracle, I got a girl pregnant?!) and said I was a bad influence on her and in order to get out of the hospital, she told them she would stop talking to me. So she just threw me away like I was nothing after I put up with all her crap. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 11:59:25 AM | Chasesmom, that list of attributes is simply NOT true. Did you just make that up?
Yes, they CAN be compassionate and empathetic AT TIMES. They can ALSO be abusive 5 seconds later. They tend to whipsaw back and forth. The thing is that most people don't like having a wonderfully compassionate and empathetic partner for most of the day and then dealing with a completely different person at other random times for random periods of time. You never know when what you might say or how they perceive some body language on your part might set one off in a rage (leading one to always "walk on eggshells" around them). Hell, ever wake up at 3am with someone pulling your hair out for something you did in HER DREAM? And because her "intuition is usually pretty good about those things" she decides to start beating on me in my sleep. Yeah, that's really compassionate and empathetic.
They can be silly but that is generally to attract attention. Silly comments made in order to be the center of attention when around people so they dont feel "invisible" in the crowd.
Loyalty as long as you are standing right there with them and as long as they have you "spit good". Once you leave the room or they split you "bad" any loyalty goes right out the window. Again, this is something I LIVED, not something I read in a book. AND I decided to stay ... through five years of therapy.
Your list of attributes are all TEMPORARY attributes that they tend to display in extreme measure just like all the other attributes that they will also display in extreme measure. That is the nature of the disorder. The emotions knob is turned up to 11. The experience a full range of emotions and attributes and they will all manifest with much more intensity than the average persons would. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 12:04:40 PM | Actually, it's you that has no idea what you're talking about. BPD is partly biological, part environment. Funny how something that can be passed down from the parents isn't a "chemical imbalance". The diabetic analogy stands - it's treatable, but the CONDITION still remains.
Nocalsingledad bleated:
[A "high functioning" BPD can certainly do all the things you mention but they are rare and they STILL cause a lot of suffering in people who they are in relationships with ... particularly if it is undiagnosed and those people don't understand what is happening.]
I'd like to see your proof regarding these "rare" high functioning borderlines. And not some bogus study from Zimbabwe, either. And I wasn't speaking of untreated, undiagnosed people either. Untreated, undiagnosed diabetes can be fatal - shall we assume all diabetics are like this? Read the post before you spew.
I'm really not expecting much back from you other than a bunch of bigoted bull-pucky. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 12:12:39 PM | Once again, you're ranting about someone who is UNTREATED!
Would it be too much for you to produce this dubious "proof" before you continue your bigoted rant? If you have no study to back up your generalizations, then be quiet. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 12:23:34 PM | Chasesmom, and for those who want to get into it in depth, the book "Stop Walking on eggshells", is a "best seller" available in any book store, with an extensive bibliography and links to many websites. It's written by professionals, for laymen to read.
I'm not going to argue with you, Chasesmom, you're saying things that I wanted to believe, and argued about with others, because part of being a "NON" is that you buy into what the borderline is saying, and truly "want to believe".
The truth is, that if there were many cases of "recovery", the stories would be "out there", as they are in reference to things like depression, alcoholism, and even bi-polar. I looked for them, to support my "want to believe", and they don't exist, because, like paranoid schizophrenia, the best to be hoped for is some return to function.
For those in marriages, or in "involuntary relationships", like parents of a borderline, there are coping skills, like setting limits, that may help you survive, but there is never a complete "cure", and true intimacy as most of us understand it, isn't possible.
The professional literature on the subject, often referred to as "emotion regulation disorder" to escape the "stigma", is universally negative in terms of the prognosis. It's the most "misdiagnosed" disorder, often hidden under depression, anxiety, or even PTSD, because many insurance companies won't pay for therapy for an incurable diagnosis.
You can say it's not so, but it is. Denial doesn't make it change. The resources are there, for anyone who is in a relationship with a borderline, and anyone who follows the trail ultimately discovers the same thing. You didn't cause it, you can't fix it, and you aren't responsible for it. It's sad, but there is NOTHING that you can do, no matter how hard you love, or how long you "hang in there". It is what it is. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 12:25:50 PM | | "high functioning" BPD is "rare" because it is often not diagnosed or is mis-diagnosed. Most often BPD is misdiagnosed as bi-polar disorder as the rages can often mimic mania and there is associated depression. So they are put on medication which can make it easier to manage the extremes and make one more stable but it does not fix the problem. I have never seen a single piece of work ever that even hinted that borderline was biological. But I admit to not having read much on the subject in the last two years. Bi polar disorder, yes, but not borderline. Borderline is suspected of being caused by an early trauma in one's life or growing up in an "invalidating" environment where what one is told and what one experiences are two different things. It tends to happen in families because a borderline parent can cause borderline children or the same trauma impacts all the children similarly. It isnt biological so much as it is "traditional". Children tend to become what they live and they parent how they themselves were parented. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 12:35:29 PM | Once again, I'm not speaking of UNDIAGNOSED borderlines. I haven't said the medical community can "fix" BPD, just as they cannot "fix" diabetes and arthritis.
Your unfortunate experience with a (singular) woman does not make you an expert, as you finally admit. Your bi-polar reading is irrelevant.
In my copy of "Lost in the Mirror" it discusses that BPD is nature AND nurture. Guess you didn't read that one, eh? | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 12:38:13 PM |
Stop being so damn discriminatory
The BPD diagnosis itself is based, and depends upon a set of behavioral observations that are clearly discriminatory. Throw that out the window and nobody has BPD. Does anyone want to also vilify the medical professionals who came up with this set of criteria? | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 12:53:00 PM | And for Melofelo:
[The truth is, that if there were many cases of "recovery", the stories would be "out there", as they are in reference to things like depression, alcoholism, and even bi-polar. I looked for them, to support my "want to believe", and they don't exist, because, like paranoid schizophrenia, the best to be hoped for is some return to function.]
I don't recall speaking of a "total recovery". I'm saying the person can be treated....and live a life. I'm very sorry that your special person was so sick that treatment wasn't enough. And you are correct - the person who is sick has to do most of the work, not the spouse.
As far as "recovery stories", I think the lack is due to this: people are more likely to share a horror story than a nice one.
I've read "Eggshells" and think it's very well done. I'm sure you've read "Lost in the Mirror."
And as far as the stigma, I think that's been adequately demonstrated on this forum.
One more thing - I appreciate the toning down of the discussion. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 12:58:41 PM | Discrimination as in: prejudiced outlook, action or treatment.
I was speaking of the sweeping generalizations on here regarding borderlines, not the diagnostic procedure.
I hope that was supposed to be a joke... | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 1:07:09 PM |
"high functioning" BPD is "rare" because it is often not diagnosed or is mis-diagnosed.
That is true, but I thought that high-functioning BPD's are the ones that people are most likely to encounter in relationships because if they are functioning well are able to hold down jobs, go to school and things like that. I have heard it referred to as something like "Selective competency" and so these are the people that will do things to you that nobody else would believe because they don't show that side to anyone they are not really close to.
So they are put on medication which can make it easier to manage the extremes and make one more stable but it does not fix the problem. I have never seen a single piece of work ever that even hinted that borderline was biological.
You are partly right, especially since a lot of people with BPD also have co-morbid psychological disorders that the medication can help with, and the medication can't change the way somebody thinks or acts. The environment you grow up in or even one or two extremely stressful events can trigger it in somebody with the predisposition but I have read some things that say that there are differences in the brains of people with BPD and that is why they have such a hard time regulating their emotions. What I have heard about the families is that it usually ends up giving the children some traits of BPD but not necessarily full-blown. I was raised by someone who has many BPD symptoms, and an alcoholic but fortunately I did not develop full-blown BPD. I wound up with major depression, PTSD, and "Personality Disorder NOS". | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 1:21:38 PM | sassyaquarius you say your in your last year of psychiatric nursing, yet you say we are unable to have stable relationships....you know what get your head out of your ass and go to a REAL psychiatric nursing school, apparently you dont know what your talking about, so stop preaching your bullshit, we can have stable relationships, it is possible and ive had some stable relationships, and this is about someone UN-DIAGNOSED, the ones who are diagnosed, usually are being treated with various medications and DBT in some cases....
Its people, exactly like you that make people think bad things about people with this disorder, or any disorder for that fact by bringing up false statments about things your unsure of, or close minded about.
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 1:43:59 PM | BPD is NOT a medical condition such as diabetes , arthritis , or allergies and they cannot be treated in the same manner. BPD is a Mental condition which is totally different than a medical condition. To the person that posted that statement , I've used the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders , 4th Edition , Text Revision to treat and diagnose clients with BPD , and nowhere does it state that BPD is a medical condition.
In my experience , Psychotherapy is the best treatment for BPD which includes Dialectical behavior therapy which is conducted through individual , group ,and phone counseling , and consists of a skills based approach to teach people how to regulate their emotions , tolerate distress and improve relationships. Medication can't cure BPD , but they can help control problems associated with it. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 1:53:33 PM |
Psychotherapy is the best treatment for BPD which includes Dialectical behavior therapy which is conducted through individual , group ,and phone counseling , and consists of a skills based approach to teach people how to regulate their emotions , tolerate distress and improve relationships. Medication can't cure BPD , but they can help control problems associated with it.
I absolutely agree 100% with that and will add that it is possible in some cases for drugs to actually get in the way of therapy. The borderline in my life was constantly undergoing changes in her meds both in the medications being prescribed and their dosages. It was nearly impossible for her to keep her emotions regulated when she was constantly hit with changes caused by changing meds. The person prescribing the medications was not the person taking her through DBT. She finally went to a different doctor who took her off all the meds but one. She made more progress in the following three months than she had made in the past 5 years, though coming off the meds did require hospitalization. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:06:29 PM | I know this was directed at Sassy, but I have to agree with her. It's not always true, but someone who is going untreated isn't going to be able to have a stable relationship. Maybe to them they are having one, but the other person who doesn't have BPD, feels guilty, confused and helpless. For them they KNOW it's turn into an abusive relationship. And as with most abusive relationship the abusee (is this a word?...) makes excuses or blames themselves for how the other person is reacting.
The desease is really sad. Because they don't see what they are doing wrong. But the person who has been hurt/abused by them over the years know they didn't imagine it. I'm just glad that some people actually get help for this. A lot of BPD victims don't get help at all. They don't think they really have a problem 99% of the time.
It's all just sad..... | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:09:02 PM | According to the most recent summary publications from the National Institute of Health:
Borderline personality disorder (BPD)
Alternative Names
Personality disorder - borderline
Definition Return to top
Borderline personality disorder is a condition characterized by impulsive actions, mood instability, and chaotic relationships.
Causes Return to top
Personality disorders are chronic patterns of behavior that impair relationships and work. The cause of borderline personality disorder (BPD) is unknown. People with BPD are impulsive in areas that have a potential for self-harm, such as drug use, drinking, and other risk-taking behaviors.
Risk factors for BPD include abandonment issues in childhood or adolescence, sexual abuse, disrupted family life, and poor communication within the family. This personality disorder tends to occur more often in women and among hospitalized psychiatric patients.
Symptoms Return to top
Relationships with others are intense and unstable, swinging wildly from love to hate and back again. People with BPD will engage in frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
BPD patients may also have uncertainties about their identity or self-image. They tend to see things in terms of extremes, either all good or all bad. Such people also typically view themselves as victims of circumstance and take little responsibility for themselves or their problems.
Other symptoms include:
* Frequent displays of inappropriate anger
* Recurrent acts of crisis such as wrist cutting, overdosing, or self-mutilation
* Feelings of emptiness and boredom
* Intolerance of being alone
* Impulsiveness with money, substance abuse, sexual relationships, binge eating, or shoplifting
Exams and Tests Return to top
Personality disorders are diagnosed based on psychological evaluation and the history and severity of the symptoms.
Treatment Return to top
Self-destructive behavior can be changed in social and therapeutic environments such as group therapy. Peer reinforcement of appropriate behavior may be more successful than one-on-one counseling because difficulties with authority figures often prevent learning in such situations. Group therapy can also be helpful in modifying specific impulsive behaviors.
Medications can help to level mood swings and to treat depression or other disorders which may accompany this condition.
Outlook (Prognosis) Return to top
Borderline personality disorder has a poor outlook because noncompliance with treatment is common.
Possible Complications Return to top
* Drug abuse
* Suicide attempts
* Eating disorders
* Depression
When to Contact a Medical Professional Return to top
Call your health care provider if you or your child is has symptoms suggestive of borderline personality disorder.
Update Date: 11/15/2006
Updated by: Paul Ballas, D.O.,
As a therapist with experience in the field, this is one of the most difficult disorders with which to work. Since health insurance seldom cover Axis II disorders, there is usually some co-morbidity at Axis I so BPD treatment can be incorporated. There are also similarities in the different personality disorders that can be confusing and may result in moving through different diagnoses as more data is gleaned from the client and the client's circle of family, friends, and associates.
I have had some very uncomfortable experiences with some clients with this disorder and have in the past terminated clients and referred them to other clinicians due to their violations of agreed upon boundaries.
Maintaining a healthy relationship with an someone with BPD that is untreated is at best, miserble and at worst, dangerous, physically and mentally. Even a relationship with someone who has this disorder and is compliant with treatment will be a an ongoing challenge. Walking into such a relationship is a poor odds bet under the best of circumstances and only someone who can afford the loss should roll the dice.
All humans deserve love and at the same time, not at the expense of someone else's happiness.
Best of luck.
ACP | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:32:26 PM | | Are those woman suffering with borderline personality disorders more inclined to be affected or more dramatic pms which may be viewed as PMDD? | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:38:02 PM | I would hardly believe anything a "well informed member of POF" said. I would not believe anything a psychiatrist. Psychiatrist will only say maybes, could be's, and might be's. They really do not know anything. Before you invest time and money into this relationship, you might need to get to know the gent more. There could be nothing wrong with him... other than being moody.
Also to let you know, The psychiatrist test they give can be easily faked. As a school experament, we had 4 students take one of these test. 1 was completely honest, and 3 others where told to lie on the test. Then it was switched, The psychiatrist giving the test could not define any behavior factors about the kids. 2 of those kids are now police officers, 1 is a mayor, The other is into business managment. psychiatrist are jokes. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:46:45 PM | I feel for people who HAVE BPD. It must be very painful. However.. it is NOT biological. It is a disorder of the PERSONALITY and there is no cure, only treatment of the symptoms. Although in some instances antidepressants can help. It is treated by LONG TERM therapy with the very few psychotherapists who are willing to take on the personality disordered. Not many are familiar, nor have the proper training. The others are not willing to take on BPD, for many reasons..it doesn't respond well to treatment...mainly because one of the hallmark symptoms is an inability to take responsibility.. projection and denial make it very tough to treat.. there are cognitive distortions and disocciation also. Also many medical plans will not pay for treatment... not the long term that is required, unless the BPD in question is so low functioning as to be hospitalized. Many BPD's are high functioning... and would sooner commit suicide than accept that anything is wrong with them.. that's part of the disorder. Also if NPD is also part of the disorder they frequently will not see a need for treatment.
BPD has many faces...some are so messed up they can not function in society, and cause great damage to all they come in contact with...at the other end are those who seem "normal" to everyone but those very close to them. All in all the very first thing is a problem with relationships. It is THE hallmark of the disorder.
Some people on the Nook (it has a different name now) stay with their BPD spouses if the spouse commits to long term therapy... but frequently a relationship can not survive the stress BPD puts on it...and unfortunately children suffer the worse. I have heard too many horror stories from those who grew up with a parent with BPD. Children are just not capable of defending themselves from the emotional turmoil of BPD's.
There is a site also for those with BPD, who wish to be, or are in recovery. It's a great site. And a couple more I found.
http://pub69.ezboard.com/bashrisen40890
http://p207.ezboard.com/bwithoutborders5000
http://www.middle-path.org/
No one DESERVES a relationship...a relationship is one of those "perks". It's a bonus, not a right.
I wish all, Non's and Bpd's, happiness, health and love for the New Year! | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 2:52:02 PM | | Yes Digger, I do know what an analogy is. But from what I've been reading in this thread , alot of people really have no clue what BPD actually is, how it affects people, and the methods used for tretment. Much like your bashing the person that is studying Psychiatric Nursing. I've treated clients for BPD that have went on to , and are currently leading perfectly normal lives. It has taken quite alot of therapy for them to recover , although they do have to continue with their therapy. As a therapist , I don't always agree with every method of treatment for BPD such as long term medicating, but I do consider the opinions of my colleagues in the field without having to claim that they are wrong or uneducated in the field of Psychotherapy. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 3:13:14 PM | As a therapist, I've never treated anyone with BPD because I don't think I would be qualified. But here are some things I know about BPD:
(1) From the school of cognitive therapy, the cardinal feature that defines a borderline is dichotomous thinking: they will think you are the greatest and then if you disappoint them in any way, they will hate you.
(2) There's a good book for the lay person called, "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" that I would recommend reading.
(3) Even if a BP is compliant with treatment, it's going to take YEARS of therapy for there to be any real change. I recommend getting out ASAP.
(4) From a Psychodynamic perspective, the BP push-button is ABANDONMENT. The threat of abandonment can trigger such fear that they will regress into a childlike state. Originally, the name borderline came from the Freudian camp: Borderline was referring to a neurotic person (a person controlled by anxiety) who was on the borderline of becoming psychotic, especially when under particular stress (abandonment).
(5) BP Disorder is the most misdiagnosed of all disorders. It's very easy to read information on the behaviors that define a particular disorder and then read them into the person you are trying to diagnose. We're talking about SEVERE abnormalities here. A person can have borderline FEATURES, but not have a borderline personality disorder.
(6) All diagnosis are just LABELS that specify a group of behaviors. At that point, it's considered pseudo science to think you've got a handle on what the patient is all about. Human beings are extremely complicated and it's impossible to know what the precedents were that created this person's inability function healthily. Every school of thought has it's own theories about what causes BPD.
(7) True borderlines are called "therapist killers." That's because they are so difficult to treat and are typically very intelligent and are like chameleons and you can never pin them down on anything. They're slippery. Professionals burn out trying to treat them, so don't even think you're going to "cure" this person.
(8) I had a professor who did specialize in treating BP's. He said when he moved from North Carolina to Atlanta, that about half his patients moved here, too. Remember, they can't handle abandonment.
(9) The movie "What About Bob" is a humorous version of a Borderline. Remember, he followed them and joined them on their vacation. Remember, he was referred to Richard Dryfus because he had driven all the other professionals crazy. One therapist quit altogether.
(10) On the other hand, the movie "Fatal Attraction" is considered to present a real BPD and it's not that funny. It was even presented in our textbook as a real portrayal of a true borderline. Chances are you friend is not a true borderline.
Hope this helps a little bit. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 4:33:39 PM | | Some of what you have mentioned is quite true Renaissance Mun. As I've already stated , for me in my experience , BPD is one of the hardest disorders to treat because of the unpredictability factor. I've treated clients who have made major strides in their healing process with the help of Psychotherapy alone. Most of the clients I have treated who do not do well in their therapy at some point stop their therapy because they have thought that medication alone was the answer. It does take years of intense therapy to combat BPD. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 5:19:15 PM |
Are those woman suffering with borderline personality disorders more inclined to be affected or more dramatic pms which may be viewed as PMDD?
My ex had horrible PMS to the extent that I used to dread her periods. The week before her period would just be terrible to live through sometimes. They were a time of nearly constant rages and strife of some sort and then as soon as she started to bleed, it would all melt away and she would be fine again. Those were the times that objects would be thrown through windows, furniture thrown around, I would be kicked out of the house or chased around with a knife. Believe me, it can be quite frightening. But yeah, I can see how bpd could be misdiagnosed as pmdd (or vice versa) in some cases or a person could suffer from both.
When she went on the Mirena IUD the PMS raging dropped considerably but she still had the other traits. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 7:37:00 PM | I think having BPD or any other personality disorder/mental illness can worsen PMS symptoms. Nocalsingledad, I think that is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY beyond PMDD but the hormonal changes probably greatly increased her rage.
Sheesh, I thought I was bad. I don't take tricyclic birth control so that the ranging hormone levels don't worsen my depression, but even so a little while before my period and the first couple of days into it I cry or get angry over smaller things than I normally would and have a very hard time calming myself down, and sometimes even have suicidal thoughts. But at least that's all inward stuff that I have to deal with and am not doing to anybody else! | |
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