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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 7:54:28 PM | | I have read your thread, you are asking a few things in your thread. First of all bi polar, and personality disorders are two different illnesses. Secondly you can't change someone. Thirdly the best thing you could do is edjucate yourself on these illnesses, and finally your the one who has to live in this relationship. It seems to me that if you must make it into a thread that you have your answers as to what you can live with and what you can't. Only you know the boundaries and borders. I believe that if you are asking these questions that there has been some other things going on in your relationship that has lead you to ask this thread. I would suggest that it wouldn't hurt for you to go and talk to a coucellor to see maybe what your co-dependance's are that would make you attract the type of men that you are. Good luck in what ever it is that you decided to do. Keep your head up and a smile on your face, you'll figure it out. Trust yourself. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/1/2008 10:40:21 PM | Ravenstar: re: "it is not biological".
This is part of an article by the Mayo Clinic. I assume that they know what they're talking about. Please note the bullet - Genetics and Brain abnomalities. Last time I checked, genes and the brain are biological. For those of you that wish to read the rest of the article, here is the link. ttp://www.mayoclinic.com/health/borderline-personality-disorder/DS00442/DSECTION=3
Causes
As with other mental disorders, the causes of borderline personality disorder are complex. The name arose because of theories in the 1940s and 1950s that the disorder was on the border between neurosis and psychosis. But that view doesn't reflect current thinking. In fact, some advocacy groups have pressed for changing the name, such as calling it emotional regulation disorder.
Meanwhile, the cause of BPD remains under investigation, and there's no known way to prevent it. Possible causes include:
* Genetics. Some studies of twins and families suggest that personality disorders may be inherited.
* Environmental factors. Many people with borderline personality disorder have a history of childhood abuse, neglect and separation from caregivers or loved ones.
* Brain abnormalities. Some research shows changes in certain areas of the brain involved in emotion regulation, impulsivity and aggression. In addition, certain brain chemicals that help regulate mood, such as serotonin, may not function properly.
Most likely, a combination of these issues results in borderline personality disorder.
Reprints and permissions icon Reprints and permissions
By Mayo Clinic Staff | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 6:59:26 AM | | well u can't diagnose a person yourself. why don't u just ask they probably already know what that is. and as far as dealing with it....as far as i can read it's already over ur head... and u been seeing this guy for a year..lol..that's funny | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 7:18:08 AM | Chasesmom, it's unclear why you are so steadfastly in denial. I know that I was, when I was "in love" with a borderline, hoping against all evidence, that this would be the "one" that was "different", and that I could "do" something, or "hope" for a cure.
Yes, some borderlines will have a related condition, that may be helped, somewhat, through meds. Almost all borderlines have been prescribed SSRIs, as a first resort, because many of the symptoms are related to depression. That some have some brain chemical issue is undoubtedly valid. Just as borderlines may show less extreme behavior, if they are alcoholics or drub abusers, and become sober. There is an improvement in behavior, and the extremes may be less extreme.
However, were brain chemistry the primary cause, and meds an effective treatment, the case studies of cure and treatment would be widely available in the professional literature, and it's not. All I have been able to find, through extensive research, are some case studies of improvement in function through DBT, and that's wonderful, but, the greatest improvement seems to be with low functioning, with very little seen among the high functioning borderlines.
Not that anectdotal evidence is persuasive, but the borderline in my life, was a summa cum laude college grad, who went back as an adult, and finished her Master's degree in a year and a half, with a 4.0 GPA. She worked as a social worker, and handled money well. Her extreme behavior came out in our intimate relationship, and to a lesser degree with anyone who became close. She had few friends, beyond "acquaintances", and any friend who became close, ultimately "left" as the behavior extremes came into things. That's kind of the point, with a high functioning borderline, the trigger and the problem is most evident in close relationships, and it is that they tend to want the most/fear the most. Ultimately, I came to realize that the kindest thing to do, after another of her many "run aways" was to let her go, and take away the "trigger".
However, from what I have read, high functioning borderlines, show much less "improvement", and intimacy is almost always the "trigger", and where even the highest functioning borderlines are most likely to be dysfunctional.
So, there is hope that borderlines can live "normal" lives, in terms of life function. However, I would not go into a relationship with someone showing classic signs of a personality disorder. Axis 2 disorders are very hard to treat, very rarely show great improvement, and intimate relationships are always problematical. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 8:47:52 AM | Just a heads up, a 45 year old man using second grade insults is not attractive. If you are going to act like a moron, please attempt to make sense.
Wow...a psychotic-looking 20 year old ...attempting to undermine a 45 year old for making moronic statements...I'm most impressed...NAUGHT!
Ever heard of Sarcasm...especially on POF forums?
Oops...I forget...we older people aren't allowed such luxuries...We only possess rudimentary ganglia for brains, and have only recently mastered walking erect...EXCUSE ME!
Only in Youthful America! | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 9:06:05 AM | princess leigh... there's not such thing as "personality disorder" you lost a word in there somewhere.
OP... run
fast
unfortunately it is one of the most difficult and troubling problems in all of psychiatry.
Take this seriously. BPD is perhaps even more troubling than psychopathy. The BPD, in general, does not see that they have a problem. They are untreatable because primarily they don't want to be (at least not on a consistent basis and not for their entire symptom set). In fact, BPD has been called a feminine manifestation of psychopathy.
again... run.
unless of course, you want to live like post 8 describes. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 9:15:38 AM | From prior post
I don't recall speaking of a "total recovery". I'm saying the person can be treated....and live a life. I'm very sorry that your special person was so sick that treatment wasn't enough. And you are correct - the person who is sick has to do most of the work, not the spouse.
From ACP post:
Borderline personality disorder has a poor outlook because noncompliance with treatment is common.
Since I run a sober living home I live with this issue on a daily basis. I often talk to people who have gone in for detox and are leaving treatment centers on a c0ktale (misspelled to prevent ***) of mood altering drugs. I was discussing with one woman yesterday how the anti-anxiety medicines in her list of drugs were needed to get her mind to get quiet enough to hear anything that could lead to recovery.
As ACP points out, the issue is with the person who now feels well continuiing to take the drugs or other needed treatments. Not realizing that part of the recovery lies in the mood stabilization from drugs and/or support. Another issue I have faced is p0eople released from centers prior to the coktale being stabilized and so they are not yet stable.
The OPs original question was what can she do about it. One post had a reverse listing ... a joking list saying what to do which was actually the list of what not to do. One hopes everyone who read it realized that. The real answer is that there are support groups for those who choose to stay in relationships with people with various behavioral disorders. All of the -anon groups (Al-Anon being the original, but there are many many more now) are for the friends and families of people with behavioral disorders of many different kinds to learn to live with the effects on you of their behavioral problems.
Recovery is possible. The original Big Book does promise recovery. Step 12 does say "having recovered." However, it also promises relapse for those who do not continue to do the things that lead to recovery. Recovery is also possible for the friends and family of the person who needs help whether the person who needs help seeks help or not; and they can relapse too.
Gandi | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 11:15:13 AM | Melofelo:
Thank you for the well-written and thought out post. The sweeping generalizations ("always" and "never") and the bullying of Princess Leia were what I disagreed with. I think we're going to have to "agree to disagree" on the no close friends point, though. I'm very sorry that your borderline was too sick - you must have loved her very much.
I'd also like to point out that so-called normals can have many horrible problems as well.
My purpose was to educate those who spewed without knowledge. Does biology play a part? Yes. Is there hope for borderlines? Yes. Does everyone want to date one? No. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 11:50:52 AM |
The original Big Book does promise recovery. Step 12 does say "having recovered."
Gandi, are you forgetting from "How it works" , read before all closed AA meetings, this passage: Those who do not recover, are those people who cannot, or will not, give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.. ?
Being a recovering alcoholic of 29 years, having worked with men in prison, as they return to society with substance abuse issues, etc., I'd be the first to testify of the miracles that are possible through recovery. However, substance abuse is only one, of 10 criteria to diagnose borderline, and a diagnosis requires that the person clearly meet 7 of the 10.
So, yes, many erratic people, recover with sobriety. Many disorders are exacerbated, when you add substance abuse to the mix. Being thoroughly familiar with both, though, I will tell you that there is a very clear, undeniable difference. So, yes, some alcoholics are borderline, but it doesn't follow that most alcoholics are. Quite the opposite. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 12:52:30 PM |
Thank you for the well-written and thought out post. The sweeping generalizations ("always" and "never") and the bullying of Princess Leia were what I disagreed with
hey chasesmom.... forget it... I am used to it REALLY.... you have to get used to insults and people thinking your worthless..... but I am still here.. to prove SOME people they are wrong and we are worth it.... my fiance has been reading this and is just as upset as I am .... but hey.... some people will never understand the true meaning of love and compassion and till death do us part.... as long as they are happy that is all that matters.... they are perfect and deserve better than someone with a mental illness..... Dave my darling... your right.... forget this thread... it is not worth it.... we are happy and know the truth....... we are INDIVIDUALS.... we are not all that hideous that we can't be loved.... if we were we would be put down like animals.... oh wait... I get the feeling some feel we should.... Tough.... I am not letting my past rule my life... YES I HAVE A LIFE | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 2:58:14 PM | This response is about some general contention on whether borderline personality is medical or mental.
But first I want to say that I didn't read thoroughly enough the thread in my earlier post. I would recommend to anyone I knew to avoid someone who even appeared to have a borderline personality disorder whether diagnosed or not. I don't think anyone said borderlines were unlovable. But, if you were just entering into a relationship with one and discovered this you might be wise to explore options elsewhere for your own health and safety.
That said, if two people are happy and especially if one recognizes their problem perhaps they can have a sustainable relationship. I've seen older borderlines who made great strides over time with their disorder. I wouldn't wish what they were like on their way there on anyone though. And it's very rare. Maybe sometimes one personality type can mesh with a borderline (boderline loving disorder?) and the needs feed each other such that they're happy. And if they're happy that's all that counts because many borderlines only harm their immediately closest companions. So good luck to those who are happy. But please, there is a wealth of information out there that clearly states that borderlines in stable relationships are rare. Arguing that, because your case is wonderful, that the bulk of the evidence is wrong is myopic. In fact, you should know better than anyone the difficulties of being in such a relationship and should caution people about embarking on that path.
Back to the original purpose... There is no such thing as a distinction between a mental condition and a medical one. They are all medical. Some mental conditions may not have a physiological cause (most) but that does not make them any less medical.
Furthermore, ALL mental conditions will have physiological manifestations. It's likely we could find signature brain chemistries for most. But, if brain chemistry is not the root cause then doing things to balance the brain chemistry will not find a cure. Too many people mistake finding a physiological correlate of a medical condition is the cause of the medical condition. If I came in with a broken leg from a skiing accident my Dr. would advice me not to do whatever led to the problem. He would not tell me that the cause of my broken bone was a broken bone.
Depression is the classic case. All types of major depression have a signature brain chemistry. Some forms of depression, most notably post-partum, also likely have a physiological cause. But not all have such a cause. Many depression sufferers are not cured by drug therapy. Nevertheless, they are given it anyway because it relieves their symptoms and allows them to get into a state of mind where therapy can be more effective. That's the most common form of depression. There is a high relapse rate for those cured with drug therapy and who did not get mental therapy unless there is a known antecedent physically traumatic event such as difficult child birth or amputation (or puberty).
Just because it does not have a physiological cause that we can easily see does not make it any less of an illness outside the control of the victim. Look at phobias for a very simple example. Someone doesn't just decide to not be afraid of spiders (or to be afraid in the first place). It is governed by fundamental learning principles that have a physiological basis. Nevetherless, it isn't a drug that cures it but careful therapy and work. The sight of the spider generates real physiological neurochemical responses in the body. Now try to stretch from that example and imagine trying to deal with a maladaptive thought pattern that by nature is designed to prevent you from dealing with it (such as BPD or psychopathy). It's not simple to understand your own freedom of choice in that case. It's certainly not easy to take advantage of it. So I certainly have sympathy with anyone in such a situation.
Drawing these medical and mental distinctions is wrong. Drawing physiological and mental ones is pointless because for every thought you have there is a physiological correlate in your body. If you have a lot of the same thoughts all the time and they deviate from thoughts of the normal population then you are going to have chronic neurochemical differences in your brain that are abnormal. That doesn't mean either one is causal to the chronic problem. But just because the cause may be mental, or the manifestation mental, does not make it any less medical.
(and to the person who said psychiatrists were a joke because they didn't catch patients who lied... I suppose all of medicine is a joke then because a large number of diseases and disorders don't have symptoms easily observable in the doctor's office. A similar study to that one cited could have fooled an orthopedic specialist about back pain, or a gastroenterologist could be fooled about ileitis. All of medicine relies on honest patients for proper diagnoses. I guess those professions are jokes too.) | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 3:06:16 PM | | Princess: As I've already stated , reading some of the comments on this thread confirm my belief that most people don't understand or know enough about BPD or Mental Disorders in general. They seem to have the run away fast mentality or believe that people that suffer from Mental Illness cannot love , be loved, lead normal lives, or be involved in relationships. The fact is , people that suffer from BPD can have successful lives in every aspect as long as they are with someone who understands their illness and is willing to support them in their healing process. Good luck to you and let no-one sway you away from your beliefs and you healing. Peace. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 5:31:55 PM | Sportymatt,
If you or anyone else wants to know what BPD is & how it manifests itself in relationships, then check out this link http://www.bpdcentral.com/ | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/2/2008 6:02:22 PM |
Gandi, are you forgetting from "How it works"
Nope, didn't forget it. Very familiar with it. However, you did not include the part in my post about relapsing. Those who are consititutionally capable of being honest with themselves and who have thoroughly worked the program do upon reaching step 12 "having recovered" ... not in recovery. Those who say "in recovery" are misrepresenting and misquoting the Big Book.
On the other hand, I know people who have been in AA for many years, one comes to mind who has over 28 years, who have repeated year 1 over and over and never "thorougly worked" the program. The one I am thinking of has been dry all 28 years, but is still very dysfunctional. I think of them as being like a heart by-pass patient who has recovered from the surgery but who is not thoroughly following the program the person's doctor has set out for them.
Congratulations on your long-term sobriety. May you have many more one-days-at-a-time without a relapse. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/3/2008 11:42:07 AM |
Princess: As I've already stated , reading some of the comments on this thread confirm my belief that most people don't understand or know enough about BPD or Mental Disorders in general. They seem to have the run away fast mentality or believe that people that suffer from Mental Illness cannot love , be loved, lead normal lives, or be involved in relationships. The fact is , people that suffer from BPD can have successful lives in every aspect as long as they are with someone who understands their illness and is willing to support them in their healing process. Good luck to you and let no-one sway you away from your beliefs and you healing. Peace
well said and thankyou....
look... I have never said it is easy living with someone like me.... but not impossible... I am very loyal and loving.... hate liars and betrayers..... we all have faults.... ALL OF US.... some just admit to it.... some will never... no matter what their faults. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 1/9/2008 4:33:21 PM | Anyone interested in my two cents? I haven't read the entire thread, don't want to be redundant....and I certainly don't mean to disparage anyone with BPD/Narcissism.....no-one here knows if I am a reliable source, either, but....
Run, Forrest, RUN!!!
In my experience, a person with BPD, who, odds are, has a history of abuse and/or dysfunctional childhood/family relations anyway, is the one of the most difficult people you could ask for in a one-on-one relationship. I can't say what someone with BPD, who has SOMEHOW recognized it and addressed it would be like, but the very nature of the illness is denial and obfuscation, and the primary target of the BPD-afflicted person is the sig other- the LAST person they would listen to.
The manifestations of the illness make no sense (although patterns emerge) so prepare to carpet your home with eggshells on which to tread. It's not a matter of "not easy to live with" or euphemisms like that, it is that it is a NO-WIN SITUATION with an undiagnosed/untreated person.
Professional victims, 4th-step dropouts if they're in the program, irrational, self-sabotaging and self-righteous, the need to address perceived problems at any hour of the night, one minute seemingly happy, then consumed with rage....I could fill this page. It's not a "fault", it is an illness. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 2/25/2008 2:25:15 PM | does anyone know if a person with bpd would experience delusional thinking ~ imagining theirself as capable of performing all manner of heroic feats? and bragging endlessly about it?
i do wonder about this disorder. and suppose someone presents major symptoms of it, but refuses to acknowledge any problem at all, let alone one so serious? | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 2/25/2008 3:19:53 PM |
does anyone know if a person with bpd would experience delusional thinking ~ imagining theirself as capable of performing all manner of heroic feats? and bragging endlessly about it?
That does not sound like BPD. Grandiose delusions are commonly seen in bi-polar disorder and may be a symptom of a psychotic disorder. However it is very important to remember that many people without mental illnesses also have a delusional over estimate of their own abilities.
Until the past couple of decades BPD was often misdiagnosed as bi-polar, but that was primarily due to the extreme mood shifts which is so common with BPD. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 3/9/2008 2:13:02 PM | but couldn't the tendency of the emotions to override cognitive thinking lead to a belief in the grandiosity of self? (if they feel it acutely enough, it must be true).
and the identity disturbance, if pronounced enough, couldn't that lead to delusional thinking?
and suppose, that, in addition, the individual heard voices and had difficulty distinguishing between dream and waking states. that doesn't really fit the bpd model, but, it could happen concurrently, yes? | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 3/9/2008 3:05:38 PM | "
"Does anyone know if a person with bpd would experience delusional thinking ~ imagining theirself as capable of performing all manner of heroic feats? and bragging endlessly about it?""---Junipermoon.
YES, they do experience delusional thinking. My ex only served a few months of non-combat military duty, but lied about being an officer in combat with very convincing stories, until a veteran's group he joined ratted him out, thank God. | |
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| borderline personality disorder-any info?
Posted: 3/9/2008 4:02:56 PM | but couldn't the tendency of the emotions to override cognitive thinking lead to a belief in the grandiosity of self? (if they feel it acutely enough, it must be true).
and the identity disturbance, if pronounced enough, couldn't that lead to delusional thinking?
and suppose, that, in addition, the individual heard voices and had difficulty distinguishing between dream and waking states. that doesn't really fit the bpd model, but, it could happen concurrently, yes?
I am not feeling very well today so I will have to keep my post short however I do want to respond as best I can.
BPD is an extremely complex personality disorder and can certainly occur in conjunction with other personality disorders and mental illnesses. In fact, I have never seen anyone who only had BPD and no other issues.
Many personality disorders and mental illnesses can be very difficult to diagnose because many of the symptoms overlap. For example, it is not unusual for someone who is severely depressed to hear voices. They may hear someone calling their name, or a voice telling them that they are worthless. They may even hear their own voice in their head, telling them that they should kill themselves. However those symptoms may also be due to a psychotic disorder and have nothing to do with depression.
One of the more interesting aspects of BPD is that many of them process information differently than most people, and this can be mistaken for delusional thinking. When I go to the grocery store and buy a carton of milk the clerk will usually smile and say "have a nice day." I then thank the clerk and do not give it another thought. However someone with BPD may perceive that smile as a sneer, and hear sarcasm in the clerk's words. Sine we interpret the world around us based upon the information which we take in, someone with BPD may see the world quite differently than most.
Identity disturbances are not uncommon with BPD, but in my experience it tends to be more of a critical self-image rather then a grandiose one. When grandiose thinking goes far beyond an inflated self-image and enters the world of the impossible, my first suspicion is mania.
What you are describing doesn't seem like BPD. I think the person is more likely to have bi-polar. If that's the case it's a good thing. BPD is almost untreatable, bi-polar is quite treatable.
Also, if the person in question is male you can almost totally rule out BPD. It occurs in men only very, very rarely. In my 20 years of working in the field I saw only one occurrence of BPD in a man. | |
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